Why do people join these things?

I’m directing this at members of these “Secret Societies” in an attempt to understand the reasons why these societies exist and why anyone would want to be a member. I’m in particular interested in why people join the Masons.

So you understand where I’m coming from with this …
…When I was a child (age 10 to age 14) some of the neighborhood kids in my age group and I got together and created a secret club called the Sharks. Why? To hide the things we were doing from our parents and to separate ourselves from other kids we did not consider worthy to hang out with us. As we grew older the club lost meaning and broke up because we outgrew such childish activities. In fact everything about the whole concept was either juvenile or just plain wrong minded. Hiding stuff from our parents and others was wrong. The things we were hiding were bad or we would not have needed to hide our activities. Our prejudice against the kids we would not let join was wrong in the same way all such bigotry is wrong. The little ceremonies and passwords we adopted seemed important at the time but as we matured we all realized how childish such behavior is.

Another thing that piqued my curiosity about this came from having an office next door to a Masonic Temple for couple of years and on another occasion having an office across the street from another Masonic Temple.

When I was located next to one it was in my original home town where pretty much everyone was known to me. The people I saw going in and out of the lodge were for the most part bad people. The dishonest business owners, the sneak thieves and the guys you would never let date your daughter. There was also a judge that always seemed to be coming from or going to that temple. He was later put in jail when it was learned his rulings could be bought for a price. Were it not for the Masonic Temple sign on the building I would have assumed it was a local organized crime ring.

When I was located across the street from a temple it was in a large city so I did not know the members. I was on the second floor and I could clearly see everything on their second floor storage area through the windows. What caught my attention were the human skeletons. More than a few of them. Every now and then they would disappear for a day or two and then later they would be returned. I had this strange vision of a bunch of old men running around in their underwear and having relations with human remains.

Since I don’t know any diplomatic way to approach this …
… What causes a mature adult to join a secret club with secret ceremonies and secret activities? I guess I can understand a group of people wanting to talk privately amongst themselves having a secret group of some sort. I’m not sure I’ll ever understand the juvenile secret ceremonies and rituals engaged in by supposedly mature adults. Not to mention the silly hats. As to all these secrets, they must be criminal in nature or why do we hear these stories of the threats and the terrible things that happen to members that reveal these secrets? What kind of crimes or immorality are you engaging in that needs to be kept so secret?

This may be wrong, but here is my vague understanding of why these societies are created.

Many of the suspected or confirmed members of various secret societies are either extremely rich, extremely influential, extremely powerful (which is arguably the same thing as influential), or all 3. These societies are groupings of these prominent figures in the interest of either:

1) Pulling together the group's resources in order to establish a common goal, IE the suspected NWO's goal of a single, global government.

2) Preserving or increasing the wealth, power, and influence that these individuals have, so as not to let others take it away from them.

3) Covertly manipulate a gullable population.

4) Guarding either a physical or abstract item, either from public knowledge, public obtainment, or loss of information from the face of the earth.

Those are the four main reasons that I think of when pondering why individuals would create these societies. They seem logical in my opinion; it's the same rich families that maintain their copious amounts of money, and usually gain even more power and wealth over the years. Those are the 4 main reasons I'd group the reasons under, though I'm sure there are various other reasons for secret societies to group together. Humans instinctively group together, and it's only natural for the rich and powerful to group with other rich and powerful, or the outcasts of society to group with other outcasts of society.


SIDE NOTE:
Referring to your avatar that says "Absit Invidia"; isn't "Absit" a Latin word meaning something along the lines of "all-powerful" or "god". Just curious if I'm correct.


[edit on 3-5-2006 by Omniscient]

There was a time not long ago when the Catholic church dominated everything. Anything that went against their dogma was considered heresy and one was excommunicated, which was no biggy if you didnt really believe in their power to do so, but excommunication had serious social and economical reprocussions as well. Let us take for example the Illuminati, a long deceased but once very real society that was forced to form for the sake of free expression. This was not a time when one could just go around flaunting a new idea or discovery, at least if it did not go along with long established religious views. Keep in mind Galileo was persecuted for saying that the earth was round and that the SUN was the center of our galaxy. Most of these groups had to form because of their refusal to give up the passion that drove their lives. Could you in good concience just stop breathing? To many of these men, their work or their obsessions(often tied together) were not something that they could just throw away, and yet adhering to them would mean giving up their place in society. If you were living in say the time of Raphael, and painting was your only means of living, what would you do if the church suddenly condemned your work as satanic and abominous? To say the least, you would become destitute, no matter your talent. The church was the know all and be all of the times. If you stepped out of line, you were knocked in the dirt along with whatever "discovery" you had the misfortune to bring up. These groups formed out of necessity, mostly. It was not for some childish goal of extreme popularity and "aboveness", quite the opposite actually. In order to pursue their individual ends, they were forced to meet and practice in secret with those like them in order to hide what they were doing. And so, to a certain extent, yes, they were hiding something horrible and illegal, but not necessarily bad. The elaborate ceremonies you refer to mostly formed again out of necessity, only this time to avoid detection. The church was on to many of these regimes, and tried on several occasions to weed them out and destroy them. The only defence was to create a ceremony or "password", if you will, in which only the members would know the procedure. All of it, down to the very last detail, was about safety. And secrecy was the most vital part of it all, for all the reasons listed. Hope that helps.

Good point EdenKaia; that had completely slipped my mind, but very, very true.

Omniscient and Edenkaia,
Thanks for the replies. I'll join in the discussion more thouroughly tommorrow. My wife is giving me the dagger eyes of death and she wants on the PC.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Since I don’t know any diplomatic way to approach this …
… What causes a mature adult to join a secret club with secret ceremonies and secret activities? I guess I can understand a group of people wanting to talk privately amongst themselves having a secret group of some sort.

People have historically joined for many reasons, such as fraternity, personal development, the acquisition of knowledge. If anyone joined for the purpose of gaining power or influence, they would have been sorely disappointed (and then, hopefully, educated as to the true purpose of Freemasonry.

Freemasonry doesn't consider itself a secret society. People have relegated it to this status because of the closed nature of the meetings. Any given company boardroom does the same thing, though.

Originally posted by Blaine91555I’m not sure I’ll ever understand the juvenile secret ceremonies and rituals engaged in by supposedly mature adults.

Yeah, I totally believe you when you say that you're not sure you'll ever understand. If you can't understand the role that ritual and ceremony have played over the thousands of years of human existence, then there is little chance you will be able to grasp the significance of something as profoundly symbolic and allegorical as Freemasonry.

If your attitude towards ceremony/ritual is that it is somehow inherently "juvenile", you are kinda automatically precluded from understanding more.

Originally posted by Blaine91555As to all these secrets, they must be criminal in nature

Yeah... They MUST be...

Originally posted by Blaine91555or why do we hear these stories of the threats and the terrible things that happen to members that reveal these secrets? What kind of crimes or immorality are you engaging in that needs to be kept so secret?

In my opinion, we largely hear about threats and "terrible things" because of the paranoia of the ignorant, and the predilection of the masses to sensationalise their otherwise mundane existences. This is seen in the response to Leo Taxil's great Masonic hoax. Even though Taxil admitted his hoax, people are still referring to his "discoveries" as though they are the truth!

You can find out what goes on in a Lodge meeting on several sites on the internet. Most of these sites are anti-Masonic, and even THEY can't come up with anything controversial except for quasi-religious criticisms, and a kind of goggle-eyed fear of some of the regalia and the paraphernalia of the initiation ritual.

My advice: lose the ignorant scaremongering routine, or at least step things up a notch and discuss the reality of the situation, rather than making flimsy speculations based on faulty logic ("They meet behind closed doors? They must be EVILLLL!!").

I hope this has been helpful.

What causes a mature adult to join a secret club with secret ceremonies and secret activities?

Perhaps you should approach and ask the members of the oldest ( documented) secret society , The priesthood of the RCC. Their "rituals" are well documented and their
"criminal activities" are not only documented but their " protection from prosecution"
is unequaled. They are the only "secret Society" that I am aware of that has their
own City, State and Independent Nation with its own standing army.

Originally posted by Omniscient

SIDE NOTE:
Referring to your avatar that says "Absit Invidia"; isn't "Absit" a Latin word meaning something along the lines of "all-powerful" or "god". Just curious if I'm correct.

[edit on 3-5-2006 by Omniscient]

Absit Invidia translates to "No offense intended". I chose it as it expresses my view of the world.

The reasons you give make sense, but are groups such as this good things. From what I've seen of the Masons they seem to consider themselves a group of the elite when in reality the ones I've known are people I would never turn my back on.

Originally posted by EdenKaia
Hope that helps.

Yes that explanation helped very much to explain their origins. It would seem to me that when those reasons no longer existed that the reasons for joining would be changed dramatically. I can not help but feel that the existence of elitists groups in this day and age can lead to nothing good. It's the very nature of the people that feel the need to join these things today that interests me the most.

It seems to start with children in schools as they form groups and start passing judgment on others suitability to be a part of these groups. The consequences are usually negative and amount to out and out discrimination and bigotry. In a sense, all of these groups are in essence "hate groups" by definition.

Originally posted by Roark

My advice: lose the ignorant scaremongering routine, or at least step things up a notch and discuss the reality of the situation, rather than making flimsy speculations based on faulty logic ("They meet behind closed doors? They must be EVILLLL!!").

I hope this has been helpful.

You read my post but did not “read my post”. I explained in the original post what knowledge I had about Masons based on observation of who belonged. That particular town was not very large and you get to know who the bad people are. I do not know if all Mason’s groups are made up of similar individuals in other areas. These guys were the local who’s who of people you would be wise to never turn your back on. That judge I referred to hurt a lot of good decent people that I knew personally. One would hope that this bunch of thugs was not representative of all Masons? Any group will be judged by its members. Who belongs defines the nature of the group. I'm not fishing for the groups silly secrets. I'm more interested in the nature of the people who feel the need to belong to a secret society. Logic would lead me to believe that they consider themselves superior some how and want to seperate themselves from those they considered to be inferior.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

Perhaps you should approach and ask the members of the oldest ( documented) secret society , The priesthood of the RCC.

I've never heard of that group. Sounds interesting though. Thanks for the heads up about them.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I've never heard of that group. Sounds interesting though. Thanks for the heads up about them.

You do know he's referring to the Roman Catholic Church, right?

Originally posted by yeahright

You do know he's referring to the Roman Catholic Church, right?

NO! I did not. Thanks. I have got to learn to wait until I'm fully awake before posting.

Well, you had the whole Latin thing going on there, so I wasn't sure. Don't feel too bad. If that's the worst oversight you have, you'll be light years ahead of me.

I can not speak a word of Latin. I found it on a site I found on the internet.
www.24hourtranslations.co.uk...

Originally posted by EdenKaia
There was a time not long ago when the Catholic church dominated everything.

Right. HUNDREDS of years ago. I'd be interested to know your interpretation of "not long ago"

The Church hasn't dominated "everything" ... or much of anything in a LONG time.

Just to let you know, I wasn't at all speaking specifically about the Masons; just about secret societies or any type of club in general.

As for the Latin thing, I know why I thought "absit" had some meaning related to "God".

absit : "god forbid, "let it be far from the hearts of the faithful".

Source: humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk...

Thought it had some meaning that had something to do with god =

Blaine91555 I can tell you why I joined. When I was 14 years old I met a Shriner.

In grade I was in grade 8 in school, my mom noticed that my upper back was starting to curve. We went to see the doctor in my home town and he told me to eat more, do these excercises, and have better posture. So I did these things and it wasn't getting better. Two years later in grade 10, my PhysED teacher noticed it getting worse over the year(a growing spurt didn't help). He called my mom and gave her the number to a Shriner. So my mom called this guy and he came to meet me. Over the next several month's he put us in touch with the hospital in Montreal and I found out that I had Scheaurman's Disease. The following 5 and a half years I had 8-10 operations(turned out to be a very severe case). None of this cost my family anything. Not a cent. My mom stayed with me in Montreal, for weeks sometimes.Without these operations I would have been in a wheelchair. Even with them, there was a 40% chance I would end up in one.

Ten years later I started to look into how to become a Shriner. I discovered that to be a Shriner, I first had to be a Mason. So I looked into them and from what I could see in my community they were, and are, good people. All the brethern that I have met in the Mason's and Shriner's are good, honorable people.My PhysEd teacher in grade ten was a Mason.Without thier help I wouldn't be able to walk. I am a chef,being on my feet is pretty important.

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by EdenKaia
There was a time not long ago when the Catholic church dominated everything.

Right. HUNDREDS of years ago. I'd be interested to know your interpretation of "not long ago"

The Church hasn't dominated "everything" ... or much of anything in a LONG time.

I really have no time or tolerance for people with such a vast lack of understanding. If you have something constructive to say, I'm all ears. If not, there is rant section on ATS. As for my post, when you consider the amount of time that has passed throughout documented history and the vast knowledge of events that we now possess, even those concerning groups and organizations stretching back across time, you will find that "HUNDREDS of years" is not all that long indeed. And I never claimed that the church dominates everything in our modern era. The point of the post was to answer the question of why secret societies form. I was giving a legitimate reason for why the most controversial and popular of them DID form. Which by the way, was NOT yesterday. In fact, they formed roughly "HUNDREDS of years ago." So, if you go back, and re-read the post I made on the subject keeping this simple fact in mind, you might come to the conclusion that all I stated was a singular motive, not necessarily the only. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by EdenKaia
I really have no time or tolerance

That's too bad.

You have a nice day too.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Appak]