Why do people join these things?

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by EdenKaia
I really have no time or tolerance for people with such a vast lack of understanding.

That couldn't POSSIBLY be meant for me. Because you do not KNOW me....nor do you have an inkling of my understanding. I have a PhD in religious studies and a degree in Religious History. I have, in fact, a vast UNDERSTANDING...not a lack thereof. Perhaps it's because you have (as you said) "not time or tolerance" Too bad, for you.

If you have something constructive to say, I'm all ears.

So, I should be interested in taking time to educate you? Why? You already said you have no time or tolerance.

So basically what we are saying here, is that you are not interested in constructive comments. Very well, point made.

If not, there is rant section on ATS.

Thanks. Rant away.

As for my post, when you consider the amount of time that has passed throughout documented history and the vast knowledge of events that we now possess, even those concerning groups and organizations stretching back across time, you will find that "HUNDREDS of years" is not all that long indeed.

True. But it's hardly recently either, now is it? Really now...

And I never claimed that the church dominates everything in our modern era.

Nor did I. It doesn't. Your post makes that obvious.

The point of the post was to answer the question of why secret societies form.

So why is that, anyway? I always thought it was for the insurance benefits...or perhaps they give away Green Stamps.

Wow, I'm blown away by your knowledge. Please...more...

In fact, they formed roughly "HUNDREDS of years ago."

Or was it "roughly" THOUSANDS?

So, if you go back, and re-read the post I made on the subject keeping this simple fact in mind, you might come to the conclusion that all I stated was a singular motive, not necessarily the only.

Aw c'mon...lighten up. You seem to take yourself way too seriously. That can cause undue stress and related health problems.

Have a nice day.

I ALWAYS have nice days. Thanks. You have a nice day too.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Appak]

Alright, if you can get that worked up over a post, then perhaps you should have tried to major in anger and stress management. Obviously, your chosen fields have left you a bit without. And as for whom the finger was pointed at, it was in fact you, and all like you. People like you I do not need to know in order to say that they have a vast lack of understanding, not necessarily for the subject at hand, but for the meaning of an obvious statement. So by your response, you've once again shown me that you have a severe lack of understanding in anything that isn't spewing from your own mouth.(Or fingertips, respectively). And knowing now that you actually attained not one, but TWO PhDs, supposedly, I'm even more disappointed. As far as the points of my posts, you've basically agreed with everything I've said. All that you have managed to do is hold to the minute point that we disagree on whether or not a few hundred years is a short period of time. On that completely useless and nonconstructive topic however, I would have to say that yes, a few hundreds years is fairly recent. So again, if you are looking only to rant and rave about minor details that are actually a matter of opinion, then go and find someone else, because if this is all you have to say, I could have a more interesting conversation with a tree. One more thing, let me clarify something I said before. It is not that I do not have the time for those like you, I just have better things to do with it.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by EdenKaia]

Originally posted by GAOTU789
Blaine91555 I can tell you why I joined. When I was 14 years old I met a Shriner.

Thank you,
That paints a whole new picture. That’s the sort of thing that would make me want to join. Sounds as though what the members are like probably varies from Temple to Temple. I don’t know if I could deal with the hats though.

I've also been told that Masons can not be Christians. Is that true? If so, why? I've been led to believe it has something to do with the "Spanish Inquisitions".

To everyone else -
This is not an attack. It's honest curiosity. One of the things interesting to me as well is that there seems to be a tribal instinct built into our genetic structure that makes us need to be a part of a larger whole. I suspect it may be the same inherent trait that causes people to blindly hate one another for no reason other than race, religion or which club(s) we belong to. I think it’s a survival thing. The less of them there are the more food there is for me. I often wonder if it is even possible for us to control this instinct.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I've also been told that Masons can not be Christians. Is that true? If so, why? I've been led to believe it has something to do with the "Spanish Inquisitions".

Christians can most certainly be freemasons, as I will happily testify. There is nothing whatsoever incompatible with my faith in freemasonry, in much that same way as posting on this site is quite consistent with my Church membership.

On the wider issue, I think Man is a gregarious animal, and is constantly seeking out opportunities to mix with his fellows. Clubs and societies crystallize this around a theme, and freemasonry is no different to this, creating an environment where men can pursue fellowship and self-development in the company of like-minded people.

I would contest most vigorously the notion that freemasonry itself is secret, but it is most certainly private. Privacy enables activities to be undertaken without fear of external interference or judgement, and is quite fundamental to the constructs of a civilized, democratic society. As opposed to, say, communism, where your business can easily become the business of the State.

I don’t know if I could deal with the hats though.

You'll be pleased to know there are no hats in English freemasonry.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I’m directing this at members of these “Secret Societies” in an attempt to understand the reasons why these societies exist and why anyone would want to be a member. I’m in particular interested in why people join the Masons.

Well it's not the Masons, but I'm in the process of joining the O.T.O.

Why? It's pretty simple, I want to hang out with other people of the same religion, to talk about it, to learn about it, and to simply hang out with others who share the same values as I do.

I’m not sure I’ll ever understand the juvenile secret ceremonies and rituals engaged in by supposedly mature adults.

Well that's a personal problem :p Seriously, the initiation rituals have many purposes. They are a way of bringing people together by common experience that they share. A real good example of this is the Marine Corps boot camp, They all go through the same thing and it instills a sense of brotherhood and trust between the members that lasts a lifetime.

In the case of the O.T.O. (and other occult orders) the initiation rituals are also like a rite of passage or taking the next step in your personal growth. In this case it's not that far from an adult getting baptized, or being born again, even getting married.

Not to mention the silly hats.

Silly hats.. the proof of evil incarnate!

What kind of crimes or immorality are you engaging in that needs to be kept so secret?

Is Blaine91555 your full legal name? Why are you keeping it a secret? What crimes are you committing?

If you look there are really no secrets, the membership list are secret because it's none of your beeswax what I do, if I want you to know I will tell you. The Initiation rituals are Secret because they can work better when the person is not sure what is going to happen. In the O.T.O. there is also the central secret but with a little research everybody can find out basically what that is (A sex magick technique).

[edit on 5/5/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by Blaine91555

That paints a whole new picture. That’s the sort of thing that would make me want to join. Sounds as though what the members are like probably varies from Temple to Temple. I don’t know if I could deal with the hats though.

Everyone who joins has their own personal reasons. As for me, I'd read several Masonic books which perked my interests, especially "The Builders" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton and "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike. After reading those, I knew I wanted to become a Mason.

I've also been told that Masons can not be Christians. Is that true? If so, why? I've been led to believe it has something to do with the "Spanish Inquisitions".

Most Masons are Christians, although the Masonic fraternity does not require Christianity in order to become a member. For example, the abovementioned Dr. Newton was an Episcopalian priest, and was Grand Chaplain for the Supreme Council 33° of the Scottish Rite, S.J., USA (that position is now held by Dr. Kenneth Lyons, a bishop in the Methodist church).

One of the things interesting to me as well is that there seems to be a tribal instinct built into our genetic structure that makes us need to be a part of a larger whole. I suspect it may be the same inherent trait that causes people to blindly hate one another for no reason other than race, religion or which club(s) we belong to. I think it’s a survival thing. The less of them there are the more food there is for me. I often wonder if it is even possible for us to control this instinct.

From a psychological viewpoint, that's probably correct. However, Masonry does not enforce this hang-up: indeed, instead of being elitist, the Masonic fraternity welcomes everyone who meets a few simple qualifications.

i joined for many reasons. the biggest one being that i wanted to see what it was all about. i wanted to see how much of popular media, and rumor , and speculation were true. and there is no greater way to do that than to become part of the very organization you are trying to learn about. The next biggest reason, was i wanted to be w/ a part of a group that had the same morals and ideals as me. to be w/ men who valued their families more than anything else, and rallied around each other when someone needed help. To be part of a group that helps the community, and does what it can to make life less hard for its members as well as the rest of the world. So with that, and an open mind i joined.

and found an extended family. where in this world where u can get stabbed in the street, and no one would turn to help, i had brothers who would come to my aid, in whatever circumstance (handywork around the house, to times of danger), and a group of people that just genuinely care about each other.

everyone has a different reason for joining...some have my reasons..some wish to network, some just want some place to go to be away from their family for an hour or two every month. and masonry welcomes them all. not really a secret society then is it? when 90% of the people who wish to gain membership, get it.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
the members of the oldest ( documented) secret society , The priesthood of the RCC. Their "rituals" are well documented and their "criminal activities" are not
only documented but their " protection from prosecution" is unequaled. They
are the only "secret Society" that I am aware of that has their own City, State
and Independent Nation with its own standing army.

The priesthood of the Catholic Church isn't a 'secret society'. IF it
were, then you wouldn't know about all these things you have listed.
You even admit that they aren't a secret society when you say things like
'they are not only documented' and 'that I am aware of'.

As for the rituals. So what?? They are open for all to see ... every day.
Just go to a Catholic church and look. There they are. In the open.
No secret.

BTW ... the Vatican's 'standing army'. Yeah .. like they could
do some serious damage. The Swiss Guard is a select few that
are basically body guards to the pope.

Secret societies, no matter how "not secret" the might be, are still useful for networking. I used some of what I learned from such connections to write my first book. And yes, half of what I back-tracked turned out to be baloney. the rest was generally useful to my effort.

If you join a secret society will it help you become rich? If so then where is the door? yeah baby! I knew there was something to all this mumbo jumbo cloak wearing stuff.

Hey Blaine... I'm from Petersburg AK myself...

So, if it Really is a Secret Society... then we wouldn't be talking about it, would we? Not much of a secret if we know who and where they are...

The Freemasons seem to be the ones targeted in this discussion the most... here is an incredibly Small list of other "Secret Societies" if folks are getting tired of typing 'mason' alla the time and want to try something else for a change:

Bilderburgs
Bohemian Grove
Catholic Knights
Club of Rome
Council on Foreign Relations
Daughters of the American Revolution
Druids
Elks (Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks)
Foresters
Freemasonry
Golden Dawn
Grotto
Hashishans or Assassins
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
Hibernians
Illuminati
Jesuits
Job's Daughters
Knights of the Golden Eagle
Knights of Columbus
Knights of Malta
Knights of Pythias
Knights Templar
Ku Klux Klan
Modern Woodmen of America
Moose (Loyal Order of Moose)
National Ancient Order of Hibernians
National Grange
Odd Fellows
Ordo Templi Orientis
Order of Owls
Priory of Sion
P.E.O. Sisterhood
Red Men
Rosicrucians
Shrine
Sons of Norway
Skull & Bones
Trilateral Commission
United Order of the Golden Cross
Woodmen

etc. etc. etc.

I don't think there is enough server space in all of ATS to hold all of the names of the various groups...

Oh, let's not forget the Sharks, (Blaines gang from when he was a kid)

Again, I'm not sure Any organization where we know the name of said organization, where their club house is located, and who goes in and out of said club house doors could ever be considered "Secret", but okay.

So, the masons in your old home town were 'bad' people, and the masons in your next home town played with skeletons, and you are wondering why people would opt to join such organizations?

I worked for the Jesuits for many years because they gave me money. (interesting buncha guys, btw)

I joined the Sons of Norway because it is my birthright (and the bingo cards were better)

I joined the Moose because I could get a five dollar T-Bone steak dinner every friday night and really cheap beer.

All of that was reason enough for me to join / take part in those "Secret Societies" but after the fact I learned there are other perks:

As I said, I spent some years working for the Jesuits. Worked For *pokes* I never was one.

Some years after that I was lucky enough to go to Italy... things I had picked up with the Jesuits opened up a lotta closed doors for me there, including a brief chat with good ol' J.P. the Second himself.

I joined the Moose and the Sons of Norway while in Alaska... Then I left Alaska. Then I discovered (although I sort of already 'knew') that there are Moose and Sons of Norway lodges Everywhere, and that I was welcome in any of them anywhere simply because I'd paid my dues and had one of those oh so nifty "Secret Society" ID cards.

I gotta tell ya Blaine... if you've spent years and years of your life on a small rock of an island in nowhere Alaska and then suddenly find yourself OVERWHELMED in the middle of downtown Manhattan it's NICE to be able to walk into your lodge hall and be instantly and totally Accepted as a Member, no questions asked, here's your cheap beer and a nice steak hot off the grill, put yer feet up, kick back, Relax. You Are Safe Now. *shrugs*

Sure, some Moose (Masons, Elk, Sons of, Daughters of, etc.) are "bad" people doing "bad" things... but all of them?

Most of these folks just want inexpensive beer, a quality pool table and the privacy to Enjoy them.

Being a member of these types of organizations helps a person to be more globally aware and globally accepted. The Moose know no boarders. It's the Loyal Order of the Moose, period. Not the American Moose vs. the Russian Moose. We're ALL Moose, regardless of political boundries, what language we speak, what church we do (or don't) go to, how we vote, etc.

If you have few friends and family, and / or you travel a lot, then these types of "Secret Societies" can be a really good thing....

rock on
twj

The same reason we joined ATS, protection, knowleadge, "a way to get ahead", and to be with "like-minded people"; who tend to respect and teach each other. But in Secret societies, it usually goes both ways, sometime generational; like Skull and Bones, sometimes like The Freemasons, know the right people you can join, or like AA or Spanish Club- MUSIC fan clubs(no offence to anyone, just an example, no flaming please; thanks in advance.), if you have the problem/interest you join, or like thier multiple opinions on it you join.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
If you join a secret society will it help you become rich? If so then where is the door? yeah baby! I knew there was something to all this mumbo jumbo cloak wearing stuff.

Some secret societies are said to support their members. If you have ever seen The Skulls, it can kind of show you a little bit about how secret societies might work, how they give newer members financial aid, new cars, etc. If you haven't seen at least one of "The Skulls" movies, you might want to watch them; they come on tv all the time. While they may not be an accurate depiction of how all secret societies, or the skull and bones work, it can give you a general idea of the 'perks' that one might expect when joining of these secret societies, and of the danger that joining can put you in.

Sorry for being so slow with the thank you's. Busy weekend.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I was not targeting the Masons. It's just the one I hear mentioned the most.
I am still curious about the human skeletons though. How could one not be? It was a weird thing to see through the windows.

Originally posted by torbjon
Hey Blaine... I'm from Petersburg AK myself...

rock on
twj

Hi Torbjon,
I'm in Anchorage. You are only the second person I've ran into on a board that was from here. Thanks for your reply.

I had probably no good reason to join the Masons. My paternal grandfather was one but he was gone 40-odd years before I was around to miss him. However, there were family photos and among them there was one of the funeral hearse with a line of top-hatted Masons stretched out behind in two lines. He died while my Grandmother, Father and Aunt were at sea and in no position to arrange a funeral. They took care of it. That to me reflected well on what they were vs. what people say about them. My Dad didn't join for whatever reason and I never did ask him. 5 years ago, I decided to reforge the link.

For what I've read here, my experienced truth bears no comparison to the Devil-worshipping cult, etc. that Masonry's supposed to be and is accused of being by others on this board. I can't convince those whose minds are made up; I can only relay my reality and hope that makes a difference.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

For what I've read here, my experienced truth bears no comparison to the Devil-worshipping cult, etc. that Masonry's supposed to be and is accused of being by others on this board. I can't convince those whose minds are made up; I can only relay my reality and hope that makes a difference.

I think it must be the secrecy that leads to a lot of the strange theories. I personally think this is much the same as the outlandish claims made about governmental conspiracies. Humans simply are not capable of keeping secrets. The larger the group, the less likely they can keep a secret. When a group exists over many generations, it would appear to be impossible to have any actual secrets. Whenever a group makes the decision to have secret societies or meetings they have opened themselves up to this type of speculation. People get so upset that they are not privy to what’s going on behind those closed doors they are more than willing to fall for any weird theory that comes along. I would think that when a group exists for many generations one could almost dismiss any of those stories a pure mythology.

I think this all leads back to a genetic disposition we have to be tribal. The very fact that we are predisposed to form these groups may have been vital to our survival as we evolved. Belonging to a group (tribe) means a more sure supply of food, better protection against animal and human enemies and more opportunities to advance as a species due to the extra time and resources.

quote: Originally posted by Blaine91555or why do we hear these stories of the threats and the terrible things that happen to members that reveal these secrets? What kind of crimes or immorality are you engaging in that needs to be kept so secret?

Are you familiar with the first rule of journalism?
If you cant distort it dont report it.

I can not help but feel that the existence of elitists groups in this day and age can lead to nothing good. It's the very nature of the people that feel the need to join these things today that interests me the most.

Im not sure how you can feel this way. With people (and I use that term very loosely like fred phelps,jack chick texe marrs, and their ilk many who openly
advocate the return of the burning times. ( Im sure everyone knows that the current pope is the former head of the remaned Holy Office of the Inquisition right?)

The Church hasn't dominated "everything" ... or much of anything in a LONG time

You obviously havent been to Spain or Italy lately right?

I've also been told that Masons can not be Christians. Is that true?

There has been a lot of papal bull saying that you cannot be a catholic and a Mason,
Im not sure what the "flavor" of the day is

The priesthood of the Catholic Church isn't a 'secret society'. IF it
were, then you wouldn't know about all these things you have listed.
You even admit that they aren't a secret society when you say things like
'they are not only documented' and 'that I am aware of'.

As for the rituals. So what?? They are open for all to see ... every day.
Just go to a Catholic church and look. There they are. In the open.
No secret.

Congratulations YOU caught my point. The only "secrets" are their modes of recognition and their hand shakes ( if indeed that is what they are shaking) and
?"kisses"?.

Just as The only "secrets of the Masons are their modes of recognition. So
either they are BOTH secret societies or NEITHER are.

BTW ... the Vatican's 'standing army'. Yeah .. like they could
do some serious damage. The Swiss Guard is a select few that
are basically body guards to the pope.

Yep just like Seal6, Force Recon, Delta,SAS,SAS, GSG9 etc etc etc etc. and Im The Merlin.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I am still curious about the human skeletons though. How could one not be? It was a weird thing to see through the windows.

Ah... the skeletons. It all adds to the mystique, y'know

They are probably not real, but I'm not that familiar with US ritual. In England full skeletons are rarely used, and where they are its just as likely to be a picture of a skeleton rather than a complete one - plastic or not.

Like everything in freemasonry it is symbolic - in this case it is a symbol of mortality. It is always wise to contemplate ones mortality from time to time as it helps get our (brief) sojourn here in perspective.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Secret societies, no matter how "not secret" the might be, are still useful for networking. I used some of what I learned from such connections to write my first book. And yes, half of what I back-tracked turned out to be baloney. the rest was generally useful to my effort.

Over the weekend I asked some friends and acquaintances about organizations they belonged to and why. I got similar responses from them all. The reasons I’m getting are similar to what you have stated. Mainly to enhance their position in the community and their careers by; getting to know the “right people”. The second reason seems to be that a family member or a friend talked them into it. One person said “to get away from my wife and kids for a few hours of peace” (maybe the most honest of the bunch). One mentioned something I had not thought of. There employer required them to be part of a group or organization that benefits the community. He fulfills that obligation by being a member of the Shriners (no, he would not divulge any secrets).

I’ve also noted that these groups seem to be much more popular with men than women. It’s usually the Husband who is the member and the wife seldom participates. There definitely seems to be a greater need to be part of these groups among men than women.

Glad to see yet another Alaskan on the board

Originally posted by Trinityman

Ah... the skeletons. It all adds to the mystique, y'know

I suspected as much.
We never had anything that cool in the Sharks