Why do people join these things?

Interesting conversation. I must admit I'm surprised at the civility on this thread compared to many others. Restores a bit of my faith in human nature. I can see that most conspiratorial remarks about many groups are no more than simple jealousy at the camaraderie.

It occurs to me that most of the posts refering to "satanism" and other foolishness of that nature are just generally disregarded by those of us who know better than to engage in an epic battle with a lost cause. I try not to ever attach myself to petty disputes, but rather expand a knowledge to those that are in an obvious need. People like those I just mentioned that seem to have absolutely nothing legitimate to place their claims on. If they listen, we will share. If they refuse to see reason, then sadly they are left to fend for themselves and are eventually ignored by the general community. There just seems to be a common unspoken rule of not to continue to waste time and energy helping people that don't want it, and wont help themselves.

that has got to be the most biased, ignorant, hateful post in regards to masons that i have read on these boards...and you've been making these types of posts for a long time now. WE are hateful and unaccepted? no, friend, you've just proven through that post that YOU are the one who is truly unloved and unaccepted to be able to hold that much ignorant hate, does not speak well of your upbringing. So make sure before you make such broad untrue generalizations, that YOUR own true essence doesnt show to the people your preaching to, because i'd imagine its kind of embarassing.

based on your generalizations: i'll make sure to tell my loving, faithful wife, and daughter who worships the ground i walk on, that they dont love or accept me enough. I'll be sure to tell my parents who both worked two jobs to make sure i was fed and clothed, and had the best education possible, and who both taught me what family was truly about, that they didn't do enough. they didnt do enough to show me they loved me.

wow...i actually feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by seridium
my opinion would be mailny due to the fact that these peoples lifes are missing love and acceptance from family or they had troubled lives and in the past with their own parents being degenrates or whatever the case may be.
It be the same reason why your doing drugs with friends as a kid its to fit in get that acceptance your missing from family(parents).
Upbringing is a major part in the way you will develop as adult. Abused children tend to abuse other as they get older. Drug using parents tend to be leinient or very agressive on children due to their drug induced stupor or they are extremely stressed or too intoxicated to care so you grow up the same way masking problems with drugs alcohol venting problems you have with yourself on others in all the wrong ways.
Life is can be a terrible place if you make it that way.
People are not fortunate enough to have loving nurturing parents in this day in age the bad life cycles overcome the good ones on a daily basis, people cant cope anymore and people dont even think for themselves anymore I see this everyday.
So Im thinking most people that join these groups are invited in by troubled sick people just like themselves and this way its works good for order in the society I mean if everyone that was invited were to be invited by say their father or reletive well then you can see clearly how this destructive life cycle continues on, you have to be taught the proper things to know whats right and wrong but when your not and instead led on the wrong path or lead for someone elses agenda then I would say your being manipulated by a sick individual.

After pondering these posts and reading many others here and elsewhere I would add the following:

It’s the secrecy that is clearly the problem. It leads members to avoid interaction with non-members. Combine the perceived aloofness with the secrecy and you have a formula for problems.

Whenever any group or class separates itself from society as a whole it will always be perceived as discrimination. It makes many feel like they are being excluded because they are in some way thought to be inferior. It also makes the members feel a false sense of superiority over non-members and promotes delusions of grandeur. The members feel they are somehow superior based on just their membership in an exclusive club. This feeling of superiority is greatly enhanced by the awarding of different levels of membership creating an impression that some members are better than others. The sharing of even more secrets as one moves up the ladder adds more fuel to the fire. All of this leads to resentment both inside and outside of the group. Those outside are left to imagine evil and even criminal reasons for the secrecy. Those inside resent the fact that some are moved up the ladder and others are left behind. It should come as no surprise that many who leave these groups are full of resentment and would resort to lies about the group.

I see the greatest danger in this to be the delusions of grandeur that a high status in the group breeds. It can actually lead to the suspicions and accusations by those on the outside being acted out within the group’s hierarchy. If the group is a very large one this effect can be multiplied many fold as the people gain in power over a larger and larger group of people. They soon start to look at anyone who has not achieved the same status as inferior and at that point it becomes genuine bigotry. This then makes it possible for the suspicions of evil or criminal activities to become a reality.

Any group that is not open to everyone is in fact practicing discrimination. To say otherwise would be intellectual dishonesty and a lie. I can only see two reasons for secret oaths and they are both bad.
1 – To hide something.
2 – As a means to practice discrimination and keep those thought to be inferior out of the group.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
It’s the secrecy that is clearly the problem. It leads members to avoid interaction with non-members.

I'm curious what you are basing this on... what leads you to believe that masons avoid interaction with non-masons?

And what is it that you think they are keeping secret from non-masons?

Hi Blaine

Originally posted by Blaine91555
It’s the secrecy that is clearly the problem.

I think you're on to something here. However, I would say that it's the perception of secrecy which is the problem. This can lead to some folks thinking that freemasons are aloof and believeing they are superior.

If you think about it freemasonry isn't secret at all. People such as yourself know much about it, meetings are advertised, lodge rooms are clearly marked, or at least listed in the White Pages. Lodges have websites and (in the US at least) members are often seen sporting insignia of one sort or another.

The content of the meetings are private, and I am genuinely at a loss as to why anyone has a problem with that. We all have rights of privacy and as long as the law isn't being broken, or being conspired against, why shouldn't we? What business is it of anyones elses what I get up to behind closed doors?

Cries of 'ah, but you might be up to no good' and 'if you are doing nothing wrong then you'd cough up' are the first step toward Big Brother. Which is fine if you want a high level of public interference in your personal life. Me? No thanks. You can't discriminate against freemasons without discriminating against lots of other people as well, and our enemies have yet to find a legal wording that just singles out against freemasonry. Actually, the best I heard was a definition of Secret Societies that read "secret societies e.g. freemasonry" with no further explanation!

The irony here is that freemasons are nothing like the way you describe (for the most part), and we would love to have more members, and would love the wider world to see freemasonry for what it really is. But there are some barriers:

Everyone loves a good conspiracy
There's no smoke without fire (tell a lie enough times...)
Good news is not News. Only Bad News sells newspapers

Any group that is not open to everyone is in fact practicing discrimination.

It's being selective, true. But I don't necessarily see that as a negative. Other fraternities, single sex schools, the Scouting movement and gents public toilets all exhibit the same degree of discrimination. But in each of these cases, as in freemasonry, there is an alternative.

Women can join sororities, so too all-girl schools, join the Girl Guides and use the Ladies bathroom and men can do none of these things. There is also in existence freemasonry for women. Whether regular freemasons recognize it or not is irrelevant, it exists and can be joined by women and not men. And no, I'm not talking about the Eastern Star (which is also for women only).

Each of these items must be taken into consideration in toto before assessing whether a group has been prejudiced against. Girls schools teach the same curriculum as Boys schools, Girl Guides teach the same stuff as the Scouts and Lady Masons do exactly the same stuff as Freemasons. The difference is that in some of these examples, because there are only single-sex considerations, the experience can be improved. Girls schools may have a slightly different emphasis in Biology lessons, for example.

Prejudice occurs when there is no alternative. When rights are eroded and opportunities limited. Call me blinkered, but I just don't see that happening here.

I can only see two reasons for secret oaths and they are both bad.
1 – To hide something.
2 – As a means to practice discrimination and keep those thought to be inferior out of the group.

I think I may have posted this elsewhere in the forum, but the promises made by freemasons are to keep secret the 'modes of recognition' - the traditional mechanisms by which we can recognize other masons. We are quite open about what it is that is being hidden. As to your second point we have a more sophicated membership process than that, but the bottom line is that is you are male, over 21 and of good moral character then you can join.

Blaine, you should understand that freemasons are discriminated against in the UK. Many freemasons are reluctant to discuss their membership for fear of reprisals. Some public organizations now require employees to declare their membership of freemasonry (just freemasonry, mind you, not anything else) in order to "assuage public concerns". This is an outragous undermining of civil liberties, blatent discrimination and hardly defensible under the ECHR. I expect we'll all have to sow a square and compass on our suits and display it in our windows next

Hi Blaine again

Forgot to mention - I like your sig. If more people were judged on deeds rather than words politics would be quite different and the world would be a better place.