Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Boatphone, the Wage gap stands at 77%. Maybe you don't see a need, but many do.

That is because there are more men in positions of higher power, and thus have higher pay. But that is changing and more and more women are gaining access to the highest levels of power.

But just for the sake of argument if that "wage gap" is true, is that 23 cents the only thing that feminists what to change??

-- Boat

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Boatphone]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I've always hated the term feminism.

I know, I'm not crazy about it either, because of the connotation. But it's more catchy and easier to use than "equality for men and women". What's important is that there is a stigma attached to it that is negative and that's what Parr and I are trying to dispell here.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Why are the radical feminist organizations so quick to ally themselves with the Gay and Transgender movements?

Jim, I can only answer your questions from my perspective, which does not represent all feminists, as I am an individual.

I ally myself with other oppressed groups because I believe in equal rights. For all people. Regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, whatever...

Why do so many feminist organizations support abortion and eschew motherhood?

Because we believe in the choice. We believe that a woman shouldn't be forced to have children if they don't want them. Just like men. I don't know that we eschew motherhood, we just feel the freedom to exercise the choice to not have kids. Some women simply don't want kids. That's ok, right?

Why are so many women turning their backs on feminism?

I can't speak to that with surity, but I can guess. Maybe a woman who is anti-feminist can answer that. It might have something to do with the negative stereotype of a feminist that we're trying to dispell.

Another issue is abortion. Many anti-feminist women don't believe a woman should have the choice. I'm against abortion, myself, meaning I wouldn't choose to have one unless my life was in danger, but I do support choice 100%. And I don't look down on women who choose to have an abortion, even though it wouldn't be my choice. I know how important it is to me to have the choice and I support it for other women, too.

The last thing is why can’t people accept the fact that men and women are NOT equal.

Well, they're not identical, we all know, thank goodness, but when speaking in terms of rights and value, women and men should be considered equal. Not the same, but contributing equal value and enjoying equal rights.

I am not still sure if it is in effect but UPS used to have a policy that required met to be able to lift packages weighing 75 lbs., while requiring that women only have to lift 50 lbs.. To me that is discrimination both ways.

Did they get paid the same?

And we're not necessarily talking about who can lift more. We're talking about the vast majority of jobs in the workplace that don't require any lifting at all.

And Boatphone, I'm talking about the same job with the same education, the same experience, working the same hours. All things being equal, the woman makes 77% of the man's wage.

Hmmmm,a new name, something to ponder.
I think the feminine aspect of feminism looks to support other groups being hurt by society. How many families DON'T have a gay member (not necessarily in the immediate family)? Women are in the enviable/unenviable position of bearing children, and this bond overspills to caring for others. Remember, the Mothers of the Disappeared in Central and South America sat outside embassies to bring to light the plight of their sons and daughters.

"Support abortion and eschew motherhood"--false dichotomy. It was precisely to save the lives of women, to value a woman's life, that we legalized abortions. Making abortions illegal will not stop abortions. Now, a woman who has an abortion does not eschew motherhood. Remember, preRvW had many mothers who had had abortions, and many women who could not concieve because of an illegal abortion. Forcing women/girls into becoming mothers is wrong.

IMO some women do not embrace feminism because they are ignorant about it. Maybe they are told it is evil, causing evil like 9-11. If a man in a patriarchal society tells a women what to do...

You know, the height requirement for police used to be tall. Why, because white males (Irish) were tall.

This thread is so great for discussion.

Most of the self-identified feminists I've spoken to are moderate, pro-choice, the very picture of tolerance. Of course there are always going to be fringe whackos, it doesn't matter what organization you want to select, the fringe is ever-present. Femnazis certainly do exist, but they're no more indicative of the whole than any other extremist group.

As I said, I dislike the term, but in searching the folds of my brain for a better one, I came up pretty much dry (equalism, maybe?). This is like the situation with English's lack of a gender neutral pronoun. Very difficult to surmount for writers; ya wind up using him/her or the technically incorrect plural.

Anyway, one of the reasons feminism has allied with bi/gay/transgender activism is because of mutual interest. Both movements seek to remove gender bias, and promote equality across the spectrum. While it can be said that there are huge rivalries between lesbian activists and gay activists, and between gay activists and transgender activists, and so on - the basic demand for acceptance, tolerance, and equal oppurtunity pervades throughout.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend - and intolerance is the shared foe (Despite the notable existence of intolerance within the sub-cultures that are demaning equality, but I think that's a case of people being unable to see themselves in the same light as they see others.)

i rather like WyrdeOne's suggestion of "equalism".

i certainly believe that no differentation should be made between the genders as far as civil and political rights. i think it's horrible that women make 23% less than men that work the same jobs. i am entirely in support of legalized abortion.

but i also believe that, in the extreme to which many of its proponents carry it, feminism is just as detrimental to gender equality as any effort of a chauvanist male.

the problem with feminism vs. male chauvanism is the same as that which underlies racism: rather than trying to equalize these groups through legislation that benefits one or is detrimental to the other, we must regard this issue as a personal responsibility. when the individual stops classifying others into biological pigeonholes, that individual does not need legislation to enforce equality. and no amount of legislation will ever solve this problem.

so rather than calling for the government to do something about this, address it in your own life, through your own actions. if you come across a sexist, or a racist, or someone who has a problem with gay people, don't go get your senator and tell on the bigot. do something yourself. take personal responsibility. evangelize. beat them up if you want, hell, it's none of my business.

if we want equality we have to create it ourselves. the government will never engender a social change like that of its own volition. and we sure as hell won't get equality if we-- males and females alike-- keep treating this like some kind of contest.

radical feminism won't get us anywhere.

radical equalism just might.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I ally myself with other oppressed groups because I believe in equal rights.

Whoa, women are an "oppressed group" in America?!?

And Boatphone, I'm talking about the same job with the same education, the same experience, working the same hours. All things being equal, the woman makes 77% of the man's wage.

I have not seen that stat anywhere...

-- Boat

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Boatphone]

Oppressed, meaning burdened by abuse of authority; burden spiritually or mentally. An individual or a group can be oppressed. As a group, women have come a long way, but there is still work to do. As long as persons in national leadership/influential positions accuse women of being feminazis, etc., then there is oppression. When womem are not free to worship as men there is oppression. Men in a patriarchal society can be oppressed, if they don't live up to society's standards. Workers in an economy can be oppressed with a degradation of working conditions and low wages. Families can suffer mentally with debt from medical bills or lack of treatment. We all suffer when unemployed in an economy that values levels of unemployment. As citizens we either honor ouselves and each other or blow away in winds of oppression.

Dang, did it again, forgot to say...I like "equalism."

Oh, right on, Byrd.

[edit on 28-4-2006 by desert]

Look at NOW (National Organization of Women) or if you prefer NAG (National Association of Gals).

That organization gives women a bad name. Whose side where they on when all these accusations where being made against Clinton? Clintons side of course, they only represent liberal women. The hypocracy is amazing.

Where was the NAG gang when Katherine Harris needed them, what about Paula Clark, Kathleen Willey, or even Monica Lewinski?

Katherine Harris is the perfect example why NOW is hurting and not helping womens rights.

Feminism is OK for me as long as it debates issues with merit (ie: equal pay) and doesn't devolve into the Naomi Wolfe "war against men"/ "war against femininity" agenda. Anybody agree?

Wow, I was off for the afternoon and evening and the thread really took off!

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I dont quite have a quote offhand, but I would suggest to read into some of Wendy Mcelroys views on Feminism.

I will do, WoW.. thanks

Also, extremist feminist rhetoric can be seen almost everywhere if you open your eyes to see it. it has affected our schools, our television shows, commercials, and ultimately, how our society views men. How many times on a crime show like law and Order: SVU, have you seen a woman being the perpretrator of a heinous act?

I haven't watched tv in close to 5 years, so I can't say regarding the TV analogy, and having said that, I'm not sure what you mean when you say extremist feminist rhetoric can be seen most anyway if my eyes are open to it. What exactly do my eyes need to be open to?

Also Extremist feminists try to paint a picture of girls in school being given unfair disadvantages.

I'm having a look at this page right now.

Now I in no way condemn the core beliefs of feminism. I believe women should be equal, in an ideal world, I do not think we should havea patriarchial society. But one cannot be blind to the fact that certain groups of feminists have hi-jacked these beliefs to fuel a change from a patriarchial society, to a matriarchial society. That is not equality. :T

I am sure my responses here will not havea warm welcome, but I guess most views that go against the norm never really do.

Point taken. Concerning the survey you presented... I think the 82% who answered what they did is a reflection of superficial change. Women are still disadvantaged. Look at what BH has talked about regarding women's wages as compared to men. Look at the roles that are still expected of women. Look at the stuff Byrd speaks of. Are you trying to say that patriarchy has passed and based on anti-male bashing we are moving to matriarchy?

I agree that presenting men as they've been presented is not accurate and may indeed be a result of feminst influence. However, based on these mainstream presentations of men, I do not think you can say that women are still not oppressed and limited, and I most certainly do not see it as a move toward Matriarchy. As a woman within the feminist movement such a suggestion is ludicrous.

And WoW, care not how your responses are taken. This is a conversation that we need to have, and I am glad you are partaking

MD: I think it’s not a bad idea at all. If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore.

I knew someone was going to bring up Mary Daly. She had her time, and speaking theoretically, it's long gone (even amongst radicals). She's quite well known for her concept of "spinning" and in the process of developing that concept she basically essentialized women, which is something, imo, to be avoided.

As to the drastic reduction of males in connection to a decontamination of the earth, if we are to be technical, that is ecofeminism, which has some interesting points to be considered.

Though, I think it goes to far to say that it's necessary to think that men need to be reduced in order to decontaminate the earth, and this is based on an assumption of gender as a social construction. However, that is where Daly and I differ, she seems to believe in naturalised gender traits.

It is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.”

I have some stuff to add to this Brownmiller quote that you might find interesting.

Originally posted by Boatphone
I don't see the need for a "feminist" movement in America. Women have equal rights now, so I fail to see the need for such a movement. I hear "feminists" speak on my campus and all they do is bash men as being dumb or mean.

Women may have equal rights formally, but those rights have yet to be substantiated.
In other words, lots of talk, not much action.
We are far from equal.

I think that the "feminist" movement hurts women, by making those that choose to stay home and work seem somehow less equal to men. Also, besides getting to right to vote (which was before the modern feminist movement) I don't think feminism has done anything positive for women, or anyone else for the matter.

I think it's unfortunate that anyone sees it as bad that a woman chooses to stay at home. Feminism enabled that choice. I have seen women be criticized for it, and all I can do is voice my disapproval of it. It is a choice, and one that was not availible before. That needs to be respected.

You say you don't think feminism has done anything positive for women since the first wave sufferage movement. Well, what negative things do you think feminism has done?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I've always hated the term feminism. I mean, if someone started a movement called manism, they wouldn't get out the gate without falling under the weight of protest.

There's a good reason why a movement called manism wouldn't make it out of the gate...

It's because men are not oppressed.
It's because men are celebrated each day via normative factors in society.

I support this movement being called feminism. Why? Because it is women who are oppressed. It is the feminine. And it is the feminine who need to gain rights and privilege taken for granted by men.

That is why it's called feminism. Because the main goal is for the feminine (women) to become equal to men.

To call it something else would detract from the focus and intent, as well as those most affected by patriarchy.

Something, anything besides the term feminism. That doesn't speak of equality, it speaks of a different brand of inequality.

Just my .02

As stated, I disagree. I do not think feminism implies a different inequality. More that women need to become equal, as they are the oppressed. It puts the focus on women as they are the ones suffering.

Parr I am in complete agreement with you. There is a woman who has a column in Fox News' Viewpoints section. Her name is Wendy McElroy. I read her column every chance I get. I also agree with her 100%. the website she writes for is ifeminist.com. Check it out.

The irony I always consider when I think of "Feminazis" (ie: the angry dike types who hate men) :

They hate men with all their heart, but they copy men in every single little facet and want to replace men (and take all the women while at it- let's be frank).

Anybody ever think about that?

First off excellent thread! I've always considered the modern demonization of the feminist movement to be distressing. I truly don't understand how people can consider gender equality a bad thing. Its sad that modern women might feel a hesitation to call themselves feminist because of the slanderous rhetoric that has beeen cast against them.

Now, has the era of feminism past?
I answer with an emphatic no!

As a nation we have a habit of losing interest in an issue once minimal progress has been made. Popular culture seizes upon a movement driving it forward accomplishing some goals but often having little impact on the culture at large. Once it loses its hipness, once it's no longer a cause celebre but just another mundane issue people forget to keep moving forward. We allow things to stagnate secure in the belief that we've accomplished enough when often we've merely paid lipservice instead of taking an issue to heart. I have a feeling subconciously we realize this and feel a resentment when we are reminded of our forgotten civil projects. So instead of resuming the struggle we lash out, we bemoan the necessity of being "PC" belittling the very real issues that plague our nation. When black people complain of discrimination they're playing the "race card", when women point out inequality they're buying into a "victim culture". Women have have made great strides toward legal equality yet unfortunately made little impact on American cultural views which is the true goal of any civil movement. Without cultural change legal change is meaningless.
As long as "strong" women are viewed as an aberration and feminine submission is valued over independence there will be a need for a feminist movement regardless of the enlightened status of our legal code.