Investigators say corpses were cut up, parts illegally sold

Pretty disgusting scandal about cadver parts being used on live patients:

NEW YORK (AP) -- Patricia Battisti had thought her back surgery in early 2005 was routine. A letter from her hospital nearly a year later made it clear she was wrong.

Battisti was informed that the cadaver bone that was implanted in her back may have been infected with various viruses -- the result of what investigators say was a large-scale scheme in which corpses were cut up and body parts illegally sold.

The Long Island woman now claims she contracted syphilis from the bone and plans to sue. The hospital adamantly denies the allegation. But the case may be an early warning that the gruesome body-parts scandal is going to lead to a lot of lawsuits.

source: www.cnn.com...

What are we in Nazi Germany here or is Dr. Frankenstein teaching newbies how to turn live patients into Frankenstein monsters? Here is another example of doctors thinking they can get away with anything. There are many, many suits pending and I hope all the ones suing win a ton of money. And doctors complain that their malpractice insurance is so high! Well, maybe if they had some ethics, it wouldn't be so high!

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Just like to clarify that from the article it is clear the culprits were the ones illegally selling the parts, they had quite a scheme going.

The Doctors are not the ones to point the finger at under these circumstances it seems. They had no knowledge that they were being provided with illegal tissues and body parts and when they became aware of it they notified patients. Of course, the hospitals will still be the ones sued, cause that's where the money is.

The Doctors are not the ones to point the finger at under these circumstances it seems. They had no knowledge that they were being provided with illegal tissues and body parts

Okay...so trained doctors can't tell the difference between parts and tissues received from fresh donors and from old cadavers? That is a load of crap! They knew exactly what they were doing! Most doctors think they are God and feel they can do and get away with anything they want....like turning their patients into Frankenstein-like monsters...and passing diseases onto them from cadavers. This is disgusting and these doctors need to be stripped of their ability to ever practive again...period!

Blame the hospitals? These doctors made these decisions, not the hospital administration...give me a break!

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Who says the Drs. thought they were receiving tissues from live people? Ever hear of organ donation?

Think what you want. Sounds more like you have a beef with Drs. though and have chosen a bad example to make your point. Just my opinion of course .

Excitable, have you ever handled live bone tissue or bone tissue from recently deceased individuals? One of my clerkships was with the city medical examiner, and any medical professional can tell you, bone from someone who has died within the last 48 hours and bone from a live person varies very little when kept in a medical environment (cold, dry). Not to mention bone used in surgeries of the sort described in your article is typically performed with bone matter donated from deceased individuals.

I think it is totally understandable that the doctor, probably a resident, had no clue as to where the bone came from. It is not the doctor's job to trace the paper trail on a donated piece of tissue. I think the person who is supposed to do this is the one who dropped the ball. Perhaps they were in on the scheme and were being paid. As Relentless noted, it seems you have some infatuation with insulting doctors. I'm very sorry if you or a family member have had a bad experience, I truly am. They can be terrifying and traumatizing. However, that is no reason to discredit the advances of modern medicine within even just the last 100 years.

~MFP

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Here is another example of doctors thinking they can get away with anything.

trained doctors can't tell the difference between parts and tissues received from live patients and from cadavers? That is a load of crap!

Is there a point to this or is it strictly going to be an uneducated rant about a field you obviously know nothing about, hm?

See they have to be removed from someone that is freshly dead so the cells have not started to break down… Since parts are removed from a cadaver immediately after death, how are they supposed to know if it was taken from a live legal donor or freshly dead legal donor, or what?

So what is this magical tissue test called by the way?
How do you propose that they test a piece of bone for viruses, hm, draw blood on it? It comes to them already with the understanding that all those tests have been preformed on the cadaver at the time that the tissue was removed. If paperwork was falsified then its not the hospital nor the doctors fault.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Blame the hospitals? These doctors made these decisions, not the hospital administration...give me a break!

The doctor simply makes the decision that tissue is needed; they are not the ones that acquire it. That stuff is handled by the hospital and other agencies…

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
And doctors complain that their malpractice insurance is so high!

The reason that malpractice insurance is so high is do to unethical lawsuits by ambulance chasing attorneys that do nothing but get people to sue for tremendous amounts at the drop of a pin knowing that often the insurance company will simply settle even if they suspect fraud on the part of the patient. Their greed is going to be the end of the medical field if they don’t watch it, and it will be funny to see what all these Malpractice lawyers do once they have depleted their cash crop and put themselves out of work.

99% of the doctors out there have never had a suit against them, but have to pay outrageous amounts of money to practice in many high-risk fields such as pediatrics. Last I heard many doctors and hospitals have started to fight back by refusing service, beyond that required to stabilize a life threatening situation, to those they consider to be a ”high risk” of suing them, and to many Malpractice Attorneys and their families. They are, after all, not required to do more then basic life saving procedures on someone, and they have started to pick and choose who they will accept for their customers, it is after all a business. So I guess the last laugh is going to be on those that have repeatedly hit up the malpractice cash cow, and not on the doctors.



[edit on 2/11/2006 by defcon5]

The doctor simply makes the decision that tissue is needed; they are not the ones that acquire it. That stuff is handled by the hospital and other agencies…

So doctors shouldn't be in the loop regarding where the stuff they are putting into people's bodies comes from? They shouldn't be concerned or care where parts come from? They just trust whoever and whatever they are are handed and put it in a body.....they don't have to concern themselves with where it came from? Why? Are they above such menial tasks?

If they are the ones performing the operations, they are the ones responsible. They should know where the crap they are putting in people's bodies is coming from or find another career!

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

So doctors shouldn't be in the loop regarding where the stuff they are putting into people's bodies comes from? They shouldn't be concerned or care where parts come from? They just trust whoever and whatever they are are handed and put it in a body.....they don't have to concern themselves with where it came from? Why? Are they above such menial tasks?

If they are the ones performing the operations, they are the ones responsible. They should know where the crap they are putting in people's bodies is coming from or find another career!

I'm certainly not saying that doctors are "above" such tasks, and I don't think they are menial whatsoever, as you suggested. What I AM saying is that when doctors, more accurately, surgeons, are prepping for a sugery, their preperation involves studying the procedure, knowing the patients history, practicing common techniques, etc. It is someone else's job to acquire the tissue. This is called division of labor, and it is a common thing that happens everywhere. Are you suggesting surgeons should have to order their supplies, fill out the insurance work, reserve the surgical room, clean the surgical room, sterilize tools, schedule all surgeries, acquire tissues needed, do a background check on the tissue supplier, transport the tissues from the donor to the recipient to prevent contamination, store the tissues themselves, double check them before surgery, and then perform the surgery?

If they were required to do all that, you could most certainly expect surgeons to have very little time for patient care, which would totally defeat the purpose of being a surgeon in the first place.

~MFP

Hmmmmmm...

Another rant about the medical field........ Setting that aside for now:


1) If I needed an transplant operation I would want the surgeon in question to spend his time studying technique, going over my specifics etc. NOT playing detective for the vien, valve, or other part they were transplanting. Sure he/she needs to make sure they are the same blood type and the right operation is being performed but to spend his time playing CSI with the stuff is a bit much.

2) The cadaver tissue etc are supplied by medical companies that specialize in the sstuff. They certify each part and should have the liability in this case.

Is it acceptable that this happened? No, is the doctor liable in this case? NO. Malpractice rates are outrageous because of attitudes displayed in this thread. At some point, many MD will simply give up thier practice 9I know a few) and go into research. Then what will you rant about?

At some point, many MD will simply give up thier practice (I know a few) and go into research. Then what will you rant about?

Many doctors have already stopped practicing because they can't afford malpractice insurance. What would I rant about then? I'm not sure now, but I will find something I'm sure!!

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

Many doctors have already stopped practicing because they can't afford malpractice insurance. What would I rant about then? I'm not sure now, but I will find something I'm sure!!

This is not a funny situation. There are a lot of places right now where there is a severe shortage of good Drs. out there. I personally have a very difficult medical situation that has caused me to be "dismissed" (and I'm talking formally - like sometimes via certified mail) by at least 5 PC's so far since I moved to Florida. They can't get to the bottom of it so they are torn between prescribing without knowing if they should, or refusing to deal with that condition (not prescribing). Regardless of this condition I still need a primary care physician and they just won't take that responsibility because either choice they make on this one condition could be the wrong one and therefore put them at risk for malpractice. So they just throw you out to protect themselves. No Dr. is obligated to take you on and having insurance doesn't guarantee the right to have a Dr.

The only conclusion that I can make of this is that the fear of malpractice leaves people like me with chronic conditions in a situation where you may not even be able to have primary care. It's probably too late to stop this trend, but you are lucky if you are healthy and never have to face this serious gap in medical care. However, your attitude is harmful in the end to many people with chronic conditions who end up with no one to turn to if they even get the flu.

However, your attitude is harmful in the end to many people with chronic conditions who end up with no one to turn to if they even get the flu.

My attitude is harmful to people with chronic conditions and people with the flu? Why don't you put the blame where it belongs...on the doctors and the medical industry in general. Quite convenient to blame me. I didn't realize I had so much power.

And we're getting off subject here. The thread is about cutting up cadavers and selling the parts illegally and making patients sick as a result. I feel for you and your situation, but I don't appreciate being blamed for it...that makes no sense. Why not use your energy to go after the people that are to blame?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

Why not use your energy to go after the people that are to blame?

That's exactly what I'm doing, are you missing my point? It's not the Drs. that are to blame, which is what you are trying to continue to promote. It is the people trying to put ALL the blame on the Drs. whether or not that is where the fault lies (because of course that's where the money is) and driving up the costs and risks of medical malpractice.

This entire incident of the cadaver parts was due to the greed of some unscrupulous people who attempted to circumvent the system through very devious means, giving the appearance of legitimatcy to what they were up to. That is where the blame lies in this case.

Are you suggesting surgeons should have to order their supplies, fill out the insurance work, reserve the surgical room, clean the surgical room, sterilize tools, schedule all surgeries, acquire tissues needed, do a background check on the tissue supplier, transport the tissues from the donor to the recipient to prevent contamination, store the tissues themselves, double check them before surgery, and then perform the surgery?

Wow bsl...you sure read a lot into my posts. Obviously I am not suggesting they do all this. What I am suggesting is that they should at least know where the material they are putting into a person's body comes from and whether it is healthy or not. I don't think that is a lot to ask of someone that let's say for example is going to: cut me open and perform surgery on me. I think it's very little to ask that he or she knows what is being put into my body!

Is that too much to ask of a surgeon bsl? Really? Because if it is, that's pretty pathetic! Again, I ask, are surgeons above such menial tasks as assuring that their patients are safe?

Excitable, again, I just don't see how that's feasible. The surgeons are told by the clerical workers where the donated tissue came from. You can't look at bone tissue with the naked eye and see if it came from a cadaver from the medical examiner or from an unacceptable source. The clerical worker's entire job is centered around checking and double-checking the source of this tissue, but if this worker is skimming off the top in this whole situation with the cadaver tissue, how is the surgeon to know? I would rather have my surgeon researching and practicing the teachniques for an operation than following a paper trail for every operation. Again, it's called division of labor.

~MFP

I have to go with bsl4doc 100% on this one. I want my Drs. focusing on my treatment and using their skills to help me. Already, at least in the US it is apparent that too much of there time has been taken away from patients due to the excessive paperwork the insurance industry has created for the just trying to justify the needed treatment.

Excitable, your expectations are unrealistic and even if they were realistic would do nothing to enhance the medical care we receive, only take away from it.

Besides, it is the governments job to protect us in these areas (though admittedly they often fail miserably). Long before tissue samples get to the operating room a lot of checks and balances are suppossed to be in place. If someone wants to circumvent these safeguards, I think what we are seeing from this case is that they can. What I don't see is how you could expect the surgeon to have caught it under the circumstances.

This is an interesting news story but your take on it is almost derailing the entire thing chosing to focus on one point that seems to me extremely narrow and carefully targeted.

January 24th, 2005, I had surgery to replace two ruptured discs in my neck. The C4 - C5, and C5 - C6 area. The surgeon guaranteed me that the cadaver bones used as replacements were tested and sterile.

In December, 2005 a story broke in the local news here (Minneapolis, MN) where a little more than 200 people received these 'black market' bones in their surgeries. I contacted the news station that broke the story, and they advised me that my surgery was in the window of when the bones were used, and the hospital that I had my surgery at was one of the hospitals that purchased the bones.

I was told that if I received the black market bones, my Surgeon would have to contact me and advise me of such. I never got a call, and I have left messages with the Doctors office, but have not received a call.

I'm hoping that I do have sterile bones in my neck. However, if they were not. I doubt I would go after the surgeon. I would however go after the department that purchased the bones because they clearly did not do their homework.

Considering you had the procedure in January 2005 and have yet to see any negative effects, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're okay. Your doctor probably isn't returning your calls because he has enough to worry about already with stuff like, oh I don't know, surgeries?! hehe.

~MFP

Again, it's called division of labor.

Right...and like I said, doctors think they are above such "menial" tasks as assuring that their patients are safe. If doctors cared more about their patients, then maybe they could keep such horrible things from happening. If they are performing the operation, the bottom line is, they are responsible for everything that goes on in that surgery....from what is put in to what is taken out....all the responsibility of the surgeon.

Excitable Boy:

Could you at least add a new twist on your opinion? We got it. How about discussing any of the other issues regarding this story? It's your thread.

I would hate for a fairly new member with such potential to just come across like a point troll.

Muckwa - keep us informed. I'd really like to hear how your story progresses and I do hope you get your answers and find out you have nothing to worry about.