BostonBill99

So, by your reasoning, anyone who disagrees with GWB policy is America bashing? C'mon pal!

I am stating my beliefs that had America not go involved in any Middle East problem the whole place would not be as unstable.

I am not afraid of Iran, I am afraid of what Iran will do when it finally has had enough of provoking from the US. The US is quietly being egged on by Israel, as all Israel wants is to eliminate all threats to itself. No one realises that Israel is the problem, many are saying that everyone around Israel is a problem...this is just an illusion created by Israel.

I am more afraid of what the US will do with her Nuclear weapons...there is more chance of there being a nuclear strike on Iran or Syria by the US than the other way round.

Israel wants the US to do it's fighting for it, and the good ole US is complying.

You ask a question :

Unless you are one of them. What say you, celticniall?

If by "one of them" you mean a free thinking, independent, anti-Oil war, anti-GWB, non-US citizen, then YES I am!

BostonBill, i have to say that you are the one over-simplfying what is going on. You are connecting dots, and assuming the worst. Firstly i would like you to find one statement where the Iranian president says he wants "nuclear weapons" they want to enrich uranium for power supply reasons.
Iran has been known to surport terroist groups agaisnt israel but america has surported many coup's around the world befor, it is no different.
So by your logic america has the possibilty to deliver a nuclear weapon, we have seen them bomb plenty of civilians throught all wars. You yanks are known for your friendly-fire, and bad bombing accuracy (back in ww2 and korea) Also america posses plenty of nuclear armed warheads, who is to say a fanatic general wont steal a nuke warhead and bomb Mecca?

It is possibly by your logic of assuming things and connecting dots.

this is all so clear. the usa and mossad enabled hamas to come to power because they know that hamas will create so much more trouble now in israel. something on a grand scale will happen to israel and israel will blame hamas and in doing so will blame iran for helping them. this will justify israel and the usa to attack iran. cool!!!!

Yetachi, that is a nice fantasy thought it occured to me when i first read this thread, but i brushed it off as paranoia. I advise you do the same.

As a right-wing Israeli (and an American) I would like to say the following:
With these election results the Palestinians proshow that they want conflict not peace and will not tolerate a Jewish government in the middle east (Not that a Fatah led Government wanted Israel). It is something I always said (since 1994, slightly after OSLO) and here is another piece of evidence to this effect.
I am not worried in the meantime because Hamas will have to behave in a fashion that suites a country and not a terrorist organization or they will not survive. They will have to moderate their stance and the whole world will have their eyes on them out of suspicion. I feel bad for the Palestinian people who will, once again, suffer for their mistakes.
I'm sure that Israel and its allies will be vigilant so that Hamas and other radical governments will not try to inflict a deathblow to the Jewish country .

As the title to this thread suggests 'Palestine Just killed itself'; This result just put another nail in the coffin of the Palestinian country.

For those who believe Mossad was behind this - It is a foolish thought. Hamas in the beginning of their movement was a moderate Islamic movement that later merged with the extremist Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood. Before this Israel assisted Hamas as a moderate, non-terrorist organization which could counter Fatah and the PLO. Hamas has since become a terrorist organization which the Palestinians as a people seem to identify with. This shows the type of people the Palestinians turned out to be after ~12 years of autonomy.

I hope the world wakes to understand this.

Originally posted by wang
Yetachi, that is a nice fantasy thought it occured to me when i first read this thread, but i brushed it off as paranoia. I advise you do the same.

oh come on. the scenerio i laid out is basically what is gonna take place. there will be subtle tweaks to the plan of course but the overall plan will remain.

Celticniall said:

I am tired of this argument. Iraq was not a threat, neither was Afghanistan, neither is Iran nor is Syria. The sooner you see that the only people who want rid of these nations is ISRAEL and the UNITED STATES.

I agree with you 100%

Why did the Palistinian people vote for Hamas?
Maybe they were elected for the same reason GWB was elected, they were scared and are also very religious.
Just because Israel is supposedly favoured by god (according to Jewish history) doesn't make them good and the other guys bad, people read 'Israel' and they have pity because they are gods people.

Israel does it's fair share of evil, but a government that supports them are going to make them out to be the good guys, while the palastinians are terrorists. And that affects how people percieve one group over the other.
Them good, them bad, whereas both sides are equally good and bad.

Wang and celticniall, I appreciate your comments.

I agree, the history of the U..S. is as checkered as any other nation's. And I agree that I may be assuming some things...connecting the dots as you say.

But I just don't trust Iran with regard to nuclear material. That's my judgement call, based on their actions of the past and their support for terrorist groups, and their actions against the American Embassy personnel. Further, I personally believe Russia is involved behind the scenes, and I have never lost my mistrust of them since the days of the Cold War.

No doubt I will catch hell for this...but its still my country, right or wrong. I am looking out for me and my own, and in the end, I will defend this great land with my last drop of blood and obey the orders of my Commander In Chief. . I may not agree with GWB on any given topic (see my other posts) and will be vocal about it (my right as an American citizen, earned by the founding patriots), but when the brown stuff hits the rotating blade, he is still the boss.

I personally think there are lunatics in power in Iran and a host of other nations, whose sole purpose in life is to try to topple America just so they can say they did. I don't worry about "fanatic generals" in the U.S....I have served my country in the armed forces and I know first hand, that it can't happen. I cannot say the same for Iran or any other nation.

No doubt I will catch hell for this...but its still my country, right or wrong. I am looking out for me and my own, and in the end, I will defend this great land with my last drop of blood and obey the orders of my Commander In Chief. . I may not agree with GWB on any given topic (see my other posts) and will be vocal about it (my right as an American citizen, earned by the founding patriots), but when the brown stuff hits the rotating blade, he is still the boss.

Man, that just sounds so, not right!
You don't agree with him, but since you are a patriotic American you will gladly become part of the problem to appease a man you don't agree with?

See, part of, well most of the reason America has so many enemies is because
it's seems America can't mind it's own business, and right or wrong, you go along with it.
You cant be for and against something and expect it to stand.

I have to agree a lot of this is played like there was not mutual bad blood. If they democratically vote in Hamas then we should respect it. Israel does have to understand killing to become peaceful will only breed more warriors for the fire. Your terrorist would be someone’s freedom fighter. The right to self-determination should be respected but that to me is where the human flaw is.

I don’t support Israelis right to take land I do not support the checkpoints that end up killing innocent children by shooting them and stopping commerce. I do not support raising children to blow themselves up but too many times it takes an extreme statement for others to see an oppressed persons point of view.
In talking with a Palestinian about the conflict he pressed me about going to places here helicopters had fired hellfire missiles to kill “terrorist”. These places are in middle of neighborhoods where people live and picking up bomb shards with English writing on them. Not Hebrew...English

How would you feel it someone blew up a building on you block and when you are looking through the wreckage for survivors you found bomb shards with Chinese writing on it?

In the US press they dehumanize the Palestinians. When a bomb goes off in Israel they show it over and over and over. I do not support assassinations of future leaders. Wasn’t Sharon a war hero?? Or a genocidal killer?

Funny....

I also have a major major problem with the other states in the Middle East. Did not lift a finger for the Palestinians. They only moved when it was in their own self-interest. We will see how the US spin this... ohhh its happening already Terrorist wins in Palestine. Pity... Democracy is democracy If they want to be ruled by a person holding a gun then they must have a reason it just cant because their ignorant and don’t understand.


BTW I have seen maps from Israel and they do not show the occupied territory (Gaza Strips or the West Bank) as the Palestinians it is just Israel. Who wants the destroy somebody? It looks like both to me. The pitiful thing is there are more alike than different.

You know I have no allegiance to Jerusalem they can cut it up and spread it over the seas. Funny how “holy lands” are always filled with blood and fighting.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but...

Didn't Israel fund Hamas at some point? So, it's like when we funded Saddam and put him into power, then take him down because he's a "bad guy."

Originally posted by Toadmund

You cant be for and against something and expect it to stand.

It seems you are lumping a lot of things together in one pot, and then saying I can either be for or against it..

I am FOR America as a nation and a great place to live. I must not be alone in my thinking because half the civilized world is clamoring to get in. I am FOR defending my way of life here, and I am FOR taking action against anyone who threatens it. There may be other mitigating factors afoot...Oil, terrorism, WMD, what have you. But in the end, I don't really care. I am FOR taking action against those who threaten my way of life. I may not agree with everything that the goivernment in the U. S. says and does, but they have never been a threat to my way of life as I see it. I think Iran and a few other nations/groups ARE a threat, and are continuing that threat right now and won't be happy until America is gone.

So in my view, its not black and white. There are a lot of factors and I am FOR some and AGAINST others. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel.

BILL by george bushes standard it does... Either you are with us or againt us.

How can Iran do anything to you personally(except push for actions in OPEC)?

Are they dangrous because someone said their dangerous? If so who said it? Are they more dangrous than China? Where is the proof?

I hope the proof is better than the reason for the Iraq war.

[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]

Wow, great thread!

First we have celticniall here advocating genocide and the death of millions of people.
You get my WATS
The world needs more people like you! You're a model world citizen and a model human being. You need to get into any political office quick so you can decide who lives and dies. We trust your judgement.

Then we have people saying stuff like "We should respect the results of their democratic election. Though alot won't like it and will be confused as to how that happen, we should respect the results."
Wow, that isn't hypocrisy at all!

Originally posted by BostonBill99
I am FOR America as a nation and a great place to live. I must not be alone in my thinking because half the civilized world is clamoring to get in. I am FOR defending my way of life here, and I am FOR taking action against anyone who threatens it. There may be other mitigating factors afoot...Oil, terrorism, WMD, what have you. But in the end, I don't really care. I am FOR taking action against those who threaten my way of life. I may not agree with everything that the goivernment in the U. S. says and does, but they have never been a threat to my way of life as I see it. I think Iran and a few other nations/groups ARE a threat, and are continuing that threat right now and won't be happy until America is gone.

So in my view, its not black and white. There are a lot of factors and I am FOR some and AGAINST others. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel.

This is the exact same thinking of Hamas and Israel and the nationalists of every nation. If people would quit focusing on the quality of "their own way of life" and instead cared about the quality of life for the entire human species we could make progress as a species. But no, it's all about me me me! It's too bad our species is so irrational and selfish. I'm looking forward to a nuclear world war so the earth can be cleansed of it's virus. We're just a bunch of stupid monkeys throwing crap at each other. We haven't evolved at all. People claiming to have knowledge of god - the unknown, that which we can never know about. Claiming that god is on their side... It is disgusting, filthly, we don't act at all like intelligent entities.

- Attero

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Attero Auctorita]

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Attero Auctorita]

Ok. Palistine had a Democratic election and Hamas won with what is currently being called 75% of the vote.

I can live with that. The people picked the party that they thought would represent them the best. That is the purpose of an election. I wish them the best of luck.

What I would love to see happen is that Hamas realizes that they are now responsible for the Palistinian Nation and rethinks some of their views. Maybe open a dialogue with Israel and start building a country and taking care of their people.

I don't give that much of a chance of happening. I hope that Hamas realizes that it is in the major leagues now. What Hamas did before was considered as acts of terrorism. As deplorable as that might be it is nothing compaired to what can happen now. Now it is no longer terrorism, now it is an out right act of war. International law recognizes the rights of countries to defend themselves against acts of aggression comitted by other countries. In the past the threats of international sanctions against Israel has kept them from eliminating Hamas. Now, there is no such protection for Hamas, because they are the governing body of a nation-state. In the past one of the criticisms against Israel has been that the terrorists were not representative of the Palestinian people and that those people shouldn't suffer because of a few extremists. Today that arguement no longer exists. The people of Palestine elected Hamas and they bear the responsibility that goes with that action. They are no longer innocent victims. The Iraqis under Sadam had the excuse that they were governed by a dictator, the people of Palestine have no such excuse. They made their bed, now let them lie in it.


One other thing that I find interesting.

It has been posted here that Hamas is the chosen government of the people of Palistine because they were duly elected, yet there are those who still maintain that the current US government doesn't represent it's people because the election was stolen. If and I say if elections in the US can be stolen, how can you be sure that Hamas was truly elected?

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita

We're just a bunch of stupid monkeys throwing crap at each other. We haven't evolved at all.

Word!
Forget about Nations. It´s time to unite to evolve and survive!
This system simply do not work, It will bring death to us all.

BostonBill99

"and in the end, I will defend this great land with my last drop of blood and obey the orders of my Commander In Chief"

I'd be careful there if I were you BostonBill.. You seem to have a great knowledge of the Bible but I think you should read a little deeper.

Consider the following scriptures..



Mt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that NO ONE deceives you.

Mt 24:11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and DECIEVE MANY.

Mt 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, *EVEN THE ELECT*.

Lu 21:8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore *DO NOT GO AFTER THEM*.


So, even if Bush is a false prophet you are still going to follow him just because you love your country? Don't get me wrong.. I love my country toobut not more than God. If you stand back and look at it from HIS perspective things take on a new light. One thing you need to remember, is EVEN THOUGH America was founded a Christian nation,, this does not mean that she will end that way. If you read through the Bible you will see what God does to nations that turn their back on him. Read Habbakuk. ALSO, don't forget that the same babylon that intervenes in the 'gog/magog' invasion of Israel is the same end time babylon that is DESTROYED in Revelations.
When the end does come God will judge ALL people and nations and that includes America.

At least the true face of the Palestineans has come to light.

All the enlightened people here in ATS who argued "its just a few radicals in their midst" have been proven wrong by the actions of the Palestineans. They voted just as I knew they would, because I always saw the Palestineans as Mad-Dogs with no self-control.

The Palestineans have chosen Death instead of Life and we should give them what they want.


Maximu§