Palestine Just Killed Itself

i dont get why people are so blind to the facts and blame israel for arab aggression, even in the face of them overwhelmingly supporting terrorists by giving them power, showing they desire no peace, only to take what isnt theirs.

palestine did exist BUT it was a jewish state, not muslim, the original palestinians were jews, these muslims shouldnt even be allowed to force these concessions on israel, all of it is rightfully the jews, for thousands of years the jews have been murdered, invaded, made into pariahs by everyone and in 1948 they peacefully tried to bring back their nation and even worked hand in hand with muslims there untill all their neighbors invaded them REPEATEDLY for what? why couldnt they leave israel alone? why? why are UN nation founding ok everywhere but israel? why is that justification to attack them? because they say so?

why cant people quit making jews the bad guys? repeatedly throughout the centuries they are, then attacked, then forced off their land at their own expense.

zionism isnt evil or wrong, do any of you understand what zionism means? from many posts i've seen i'll guess you dont, all it is is a desire for a homeland, by many stating a desire to end zionism, they mean an end to israel, israel is zion, end of story

[edit on 27-1-2006 by namehere]

Arguing over who should or should not have a right to be there isn't a logical question. The fact of the matter is, they are there and acceptance of that position needs to be achieved by both sides.

The fighting between Israel and Palestine is two fold. For every attack, there is a revenge attack, by both sides. Diplomacy is the only thing thats going to ever resolve the Israel/Palestine turmoil.

Hamas in control is not necassarily a bad thing.. if you did any research other then reading into Hamas' past beliefs, you'd note that Hamas is making a political move to end the conflict through continuing negotiations.

Over the past year, Hamas on the whole has adhered to its truce with Israel; its elected municipal representatives coordinate with the Israeli administration; rather than oppose the principle of future negotiations, it disputes the basis of those that were held in the past; and, not unlike Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, it favors a long-term interim agreement between the two parties, albeit on terms far different from those Sharon supports.

They are making a political stand. And now the people of Palestine are backing that stand..

Originally posted by celticniall
Originally posted by FlyersFan

There is no dialogue with Hamas.
They have firmly stated that the reason they exist is to wipe Israel
off the map.

Ever ask yourself why this is?

Nope. Don't have to. Hamas has said why it wishes to destroy
the one and only Jewish homeland in the world. They said -
because 'Jews are pigs and apes.' Hamas believes that
ANYONE who isn't Muslim doesn't have a right to exist.
Hamas is representing nothing more than a bunch of bullies
who are intent on a land grab. There are plenty of muslim
homelands ... dozens ... but there is only one, very small,
Jewish homeland. The Jews have a right to it.

Isreal exists. It has a right to exist.

Just like Iraq had a right to exist without interference, just like
Afghanistan had a right to exist without interference, ...
Liberating Iraqis from mass murder, mass torture, and genocide
(Kurds) is NOT interfering. It's a duty and the right thing to do.
Sitting back and letting it happen would have been criminal.
BTW - Afghanistan wasn't 'interference' either. The Taliban and
the terrorists who attacked us were firmly entrenched there.
It's the Taliban's own fault that we went in and squashed the
terrorists and kicked the Taliban out of control. THEY interfered
with US on 9/11 ...

I had to laugh when you called Israel the "victim"

How sad. Anti-semitism at work.

[edit on 1/27/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by celticniall
I am not afraid of Iran,

You should be.

Unless the youth of that nation are able to overthrow the
whack jobs that are running the place ... Iran WILL attack
Israel the minute it gets nukes. Tel Aviv will be gone
instantly.

As the winds carry the radioactive fall out around the world,
Iran will be marking it's next target ... Europe.

Irans president is crazy. He's also hell bent on getting
nuclear weapons to toss around. He has already promised
to do so.

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.

Originally posted by namehere
why cant people quit making jews the bad guys?

Anti-semitism has been an 'easy out' for hundreds and hundreds of
years. If you blame the jews for everything .. from the latest famine
to the pimple on your face ... it makes life easier. That way you
don't have to look at your own role in the problems. Scape goats
make life easier and the world's favorite scape goats are the Jews.
They are a small bunch and easily blamed and steamrolled.

Sad. But true.

Now that they are coming together, and now that they can defend
themselves better (a nuclear nation) it isn't as easy to blame them
for everything. So the world revolts against this.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Hamas IS at war with Israel.

THIS is the bottom line folks.

Hamas is at war with Isreal. They declared it long ago and
they are actively seeking to destroy Isreal. They reaffirm this
stand constantly.

MOST of Palestinians voted and MOST of them voted for Hamas.
This means that Palestinians back the war against Isreal.

As was pointed out earlier ... the US government declared it
ILLEGAL for America to do any political business with Hamas
because it is a terrorist organization.

End of story.
End of peace process.

Can't blame the Jews. Can't blame America.
Put the blame where it rests .. on Hamas
and THEIR declaration of war until Israel
is destroyed.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by dgtempe
We need a smiley that shakes its head.

dg, we already have one!

:shk: :shk: :shk: !

0000ps....yes we do. Thanks for pointing that out. I've only used it a million times!

Originally posted by wang
......
Just because they have elected a party that does not hold the same capatilistic views as your own, dont make them out to be the biggest threat to the world.
You are making assumptions based on a few extreme islamics, should i base all american goals/ambitions on the fanatical christian agenda?

I am not concerned with the economic policies of HAMAS. I am however concerned about this:

Article 13
Hamas Charter
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

Article 11
....The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day.

This few Islamic extremists as you call them, now are forming the Govt. Doesn't that make you a little nervous as they have stated that they want every inch of Palestine and will not negotiate about it?

The next attack by HAMAS on Israel will be an attack by the elected officials of the Palestinians. How do you think Israel will respond to that?

I think the Palestinians are in for more failed leaders who only end up getting their people and lands destroyed yet again because of their failure to negoiate a peace with it's neighbor Israel. The whole peace process is in danger of falling apart.

It's absurb that people blame Isreal for the problems in the Middle East.

Can some of you people pick up a history book from time to time. What is so hard to understand that over the past thousand years, muslims have tried to and have killed anyone who doesnt believe in their whacked out religious theories. They hate jews and they want them dead, they are still bickering over a piece of land, A PIECE OF LAND FOR GODS SAKE.

Hamas wants Isreal to be slaughtered. PERIOD

Train

[highlighted names for ease of reference in a long post]

madnessinmysoul
so, i still don't understand why the NATION of israel have any right to exist. can ANYONE explain?

It doesn't have a right to exist. It has to enforce its continued existence through its military.

what makes the palestinians the terrorists, when both sides target civilians?

The yehudis don't target civilians. Hamas, now the majority government of the Palestinian Territory, does. Its the policy of the government of the Palestinian Territories to target civilians and seek to destroy the nation of israel. Do they have a right to do that? Sure. But, when Isreal is about a thousand times stronger than ya, its right, but pretty freeking stupid.

Give me factual no impirical evidince that israel has a right to be there more that the palistinians that were there for the last 300 years.

They have more of a 'right' to be there because they are able to hold it. The palestinians, meanwhile, complain, but mostly do nothing. If the entire population of palestian marched on israel, then at least they'd be trying to get their supposed 'homeland' back. But any people that just let themselves get forced off their homeland and then don't do much other than the occasional suicide bombing, don't deserve that homeland.

wang
Please stop with spreading the fear, you are making Islam our to be the new nazi's or communists.

He didn't say islam, he said radical islam. Radical Islam and internationalist terrorism is a politico-religious movement that is highly militant, extremely intolerant, and extraordinarily dangerous. They are the 'new' nazis and communists, that's why Bush phrased the war on terror as involving the "Axis (reference to the rome-berlin-tokyo axis) of Evil (reference to the 'evil empire' of the soviets)".

Just because they have elected a party that does not hold the same capatilistic views as your own,

Economics has nothing to do with it. Infact, I haven't heard of the econimic planks of the Hamas "platform". Hamas is not an ecomic-political party. Its a paramilitary organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and is engaged in a guerilla-terrorist war against the yehudis. THe election is perfectly legal. So was the election of the NDAP to power. That hardly means that they're not the bad guys here. THat hardly means that Israel shouldn't demand that they stop using terrorism and continuing their guerilla war agianst them.
At least with Fatah there was a possibility of having two states. Not so with Hamas. Israel can't work with Hamas, because Hamas wants Israel gone, whether its by gas chambers or expulsion. What possible reasonable response can the yehudis have to that, other than to hunt down and destroy everyone in Hamas and continue to occupy their palestinian territory?

should i base all american goals/ambitions on the fanatical christian agenda?

You should certainly base your understanding of one particular extremist christian paramilitary army upon your understanding of radical militant christianity, yes. Hamas is not 'just some muslims'.

namehere
palestine did exist BUT it was a jewish state, not muslim, the original palestinians were jews

This is all silly really. The portion of land that is now syria, lebanon, the sinai and israel was once called "THe Levant". It was made up of lots of different peoples. One of these peoples were called "The Hebrews". Their own religico-politico myths of their founding was that they came from somehwere else, sometimes Ur, sometimes Egypt. Thats truly ancient history. Then later, The Levant was essentially part of an extended Egyptian Empire. Then that fell. TThen much later, it was run by the persians. They took some of the peoples from that region and moved them to places like iraq. They took other peoples from iraq and iran and moved them into the levant. Then that fell. Then some greeks moved in. Then the romans seized it. For most of the time before that, there were these people who had this temple in jerusalem who were the nominal local rulers. Sometimes they were monotheists, sometimes they have pagan idols in their temples. Then the romans fell apart, then the arabs spread their empire. Then the turks came in. And so on and so on.

This is all irrelevant. There are only two bases for land claims. "I personally live here" and "The law recognizes that this is mine". Muslim Palestinians and Israeli Jews both lived in British Palestine. So did the Druze, so did Christians, so did a lot of people. The British were mandated Palestine by the only international legal organization that existed, the UN/League of Nations. They, the British, as legal owners of the land, decided that of the people living there, that the Jews would be granted nominal local governance, and then the jews said "anyone who is a jew can return here", and that lead to a lot of muslim palestinians being forced off their homes.

Most of those guys forced off their homes are dead. Almost none of the people in Hamas have a cliam to any land in israel based on either the "I lived there" bit or the "I legally own it" bit. And even if some of them did, thats irrelevant, because the Palestinians went to war with israel, and, stupidly, lost the war. That meant that they lost a claim to real ownership and sovereignty in what is now the occupied territories, let alone Israel proper. It has nothing to do with the bible, other than thats why jews from the rest of the world decided to emmigrate to this new 'Jewish State".

why cant people quit making jews the bad guys?

The yehudis have done some pretty bad things since they were in power, and when the whole place was a part of the British Empire, the native jews were terrorists also. So its understandable that people point these things out. The yehudis are also occupying another people, and thus they are, literally, oppressing them, and thats 'not nice'. Those are the basies for criticism of the Isreali government. I'd say that its 'not nice' that they oppress the palestinians, but then agian, I'd be hard pressed to explain why a people who've gone to war with you multiple times and are currently engaged in a guerilla war against you shouldn't be occupied.

quietsoul
The fighting between Israel and Palestine is two fold. For every attack, there is a revenge attack, by both sides.

The yehudi attacks aren't revenge attacks. The palestinians fire rockets and mortars into civilian towns and settlements. As a result, the yehudis fire back, or go into the refugee camps in the palestinians territories and hunt down the people that fired upon them. They'll even assasinate the people that are the organizers of the groups that perform the attacks. Thats not 'revenge', thats a police/military action that makes sense.

Imagine for a moment what it would be like if the yehudis were doing the same thing as hamas. A mortar is fired into a jewish town and kills some civilians. The yehudis respond by firing dozens of guided missiles specifically into hospitals and schools with children and civilian patients in them. They send out their attack helicpoters and mow down civilians indiscriminatly in markets at the height of traffic in the day. They send in agents to plant bombs on railroad tracks that are used by tourists en route to holy shrines in the territory. And if a muslim approaches the Wailing Wall or the Dome, even if there is no bloodshed, they send convoys into palestinian towns, round up civilians, and shoot them in the skulls and bury them in mass graves.

Hell, even all that wouldn't be equivalent, because Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of isreal, not merely an end to the occupation in the palestinian territory. It'd be like if the yehudis launched the full force of their army at the west bank, rounded up as many palestinians as possible, and shot or deported as many of them as possible, burning all the houses, government buildings, and infrastructure as possible. And then, after that, did the same to lebanon, syria, egypt, and, what the heck, fired a few missiles into Riyad.

quitesoul
you'd note that Hamas is making a political move to end the conflict through continuing negotiations

Not for nothing, not for rhetoric or to slam you or something, but this is an absolutely absurd proposition. Hamas is willing to negotiate if the yehudi offer is "we'll disassemble our entire government, we'll disband our military, we'll give you the government offices, we'll give you the military weapons, and we'll give individual palestinians as much land for private use as they and you see fit. And if you want to kick most of us out, we're fine with that and we'll leave".
Otherwise, hamas is not interested in negotiation, its not interested in stopping its war with the yehudis, and its not even interested in restricting that war to soldiers.

I don't really care about the 'state of israel'. I don't really care about the 'state of palestine'. If the two sides agreed to merge together into "The Republic of Caanan", hell, I'd think that that's pretty god damned cool. But clearly the isrealis have a right to attack, occupy, and fight anyone that seeks to attack, occupy, and fight them.

There's another possible side to this. The people of Palestine elected a different political party becuase the one that has ruled for the last 40yrs has gotten them nowhere. Fatah was seen by most as currupt and ineffectual. The Palestinians were wooed by Hamas and voted for change --- not necessarily violence/terrorism. Lately, Hamas has been building schools and doing good deeds internally to improve their PR.

So now they are the government. Now the Palestinian people will look to them to improve their lot. If things don't go well they'll be blamed. Like all governments, when things don't go the way the populace wants they'll take the heat. In the past, Hamas has been able to operate autonomously pretty much being the Robin Hoods (pun intended) in Palestine. Now, Hamas will find itself at the pointy end of accountability. Lets see how they handle it.

Originally posted by BigTrain
It's absurb that people blame Isreal for the problems in the Middle East.

Can some of you people pick up a history book from time to time. What is so hard to understand that over the past thousand years, muslims have tried to and have killed anyone who doesnt believe in their whacked out religious theories.

This is incorrect. The very fact that there are jews in what was once an area completely dominated by muslims, and in an era when there'd be not a soul to oppose them, shows that the muslims as muslims don't hate the jews. The existence of a long standing and minority (ie, weak and basically defenseless) jewish community in the middle of iraq shows this too.

Infact, the existence of the druze, the alawis, the yezidi, and the hindus and the babi's and a number of other non-islamic relgions throughout the middle east shows that islam is not consitutionally opposed to the existence of other religions. Indeed, look at the variety of religions in the middle east compared to europe. Christianity wiped out all the pagan religions it could get its hands on. Mainstream Christianity even wiped out entire sects of 'heretical' christianity permanently.
So lets not pretend that Islam is constitutively intolerant or even anti-semitic. There are even a number of groups of muslims that claim descent from the jews, even as far away as afghanistan, and who hold no ill will torwards the unconverted jews and even welcome them as 'brothers'.

Hamas wants Isreal to be slaughtered. PERIOD

That much is clear. I wouldn't say that hamas is representative of Islam in the modern middle east, let alone Islam as a whole throughout its history.

Originally posted by namehere
i dont get why people are so blind to the facts and blame israel for arab aggression, even in the face of them overwhelmingly supporting terrorists by giving them power, showing they desire no peace, only to take what isnt theirs.

palestine did exist BUT it was a jewish state, not muslim, the original palestinians were jews, these muslims shouldnt even be allowed to force these concessions on israel, all of it is rightfully the jews, for thousands of years the jews have been murdered, invaded, made into pariahs by everyone and in 1948 they peacefully tried to bring back their nation and even worked hand in hand with muslims there untill all their neighbors invaded them REPEATEDLY for what? why couldnt they leave israel alone? why? why are UN nation founding ok everywhere but israel? why is that justification to attack them? because they say so?


[edit on 27-1-2006 by namehere]

What a load of crap! The colonization of the territories known today as Israel was made by MILITARY FORCE in 1947. Thousands of peasants were expropriated from their lands and concentrated into areas where they had no means to survive by themselves, and no choice but to work as cheap labor for the zionist land owners. Never any contract or constitutional agreement was made between the jewish invading population and the local palestinian population on how to divide or share territories. Land was taken arbitrarly and people were FORCED to relocated to other places where they could not grown anything. This is how palestinian territories have formed, since 1947. You're mistaking zionist propaganda for history books, my friend

Just because there were Jews living in Palestine more than 1500 years ago and they had to leave does'nt justify their "God-given" right to these lands today. The peasants that lived there could'nt be held responsible for what their far ancestors did back then to the Jews, and yet when you occupy and live in a territory for all this time, it just belongs to you... period!

And no Israel is NOT a Jewish homeland. It is an illegitimate Zionist STATE created and imposed under the sole idea that Jews have an undisputable right to not only own this territory, but also to have exclusive access to it, and this is why this whole project is wrong from the start!

[edit on 27/1/06 by Echtelion]

[edit on 27/1/06 by Echtelion]

It looks like Fatah and Hammas are about to go at it in the streets! Anyone else seeing this ??

Originally posted by Dronetek
It looks like Fatah and Hammas are about to go at it in the streets! Anyone else seeing this ??

Yep...the situation is deteriorating in Gaza as armed Fatah and Hamas supporters clash:



It's live on FOX now.

Just turned on the tube, good ole' MSM!

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by Dronetek
It looks like Fatah and Hammas are about to go at it in the streets! Anyone else seeing this ??

Yep...the situation is deteriorating in Gaza as armed Fatah and Hamas supporters clash:

Yup if the keep this up they might kill themselves off before this is over.

I have seen at least one van set ablaze guess they enjoy doing that kind of stuff. Kind of stupid if you ask me and if this is any indication of things to come it is very sad, hell they cannot even get along with their own.

Originally posted by shots
Kind of stupid if you ask me and if this is any indication of things to come it is very sad, hell they cannot even get along with their own.

Do you think it´s something genetic or maybe something in their culture or is it poverty, desperation and repression? Or maybe something else?

Originally posted by DaftDebunk

Do you think it´s something genetic or maybe something in their culture or is it poverty, desperation and repression? Or maybe something else?

I would have to say the problem lies within their religion and their religous beliefs for the most part. That of course is just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They are the 'new' nazis and communists

So because communism has been poorly implemented in the past, by authoritarian dictators who abused their people, communism deserves to be lumped in with Nazism? That's like saying socialism is equivalent to Nazism because the Nazi's were socialists (their party name = National Socialist German Workers Party). How about replacing communists with "Soviets" instead of making such a grand generalization that communism is in the same league as Nazism?

- Attero