[highlighted names for ease of reference in a long post]
so, i still don't understand why the NATION of israel have any right to exist. can ANYONE explain?
It doesn't have a right to exist. It has to enforce its continued existence through its military.
what makes the palestinians the terrorists, when both sides target civilians?
The yehudis don't target civilians. Hamas, now the majority government of the Palestinian Territory, does. Its the policy of the government of the
Palestinian Territories to target civilians and seek to destroy the nation of israel. Do they have a right to do that? Sure. But, when Isreal is
about a thousand times stronger than ya, its right, but pretty freeking stupid.
Give me factual no impirical evidince that israel has a right to be there more that the palistinians that were there for the last 300
They have more of a 'right' to be there because they are able to hold it. The palestinians, meanwhile, complain, but mostly do nothing. If the
entire population of palestian marched on israel, then at least they'd be trying to get their supposed 'homeland' back. But any people that just
let themselves get forced off their homeland and then don't do much other than the occasional suicide bombing, don't deserve that homeland.
Please stop with spreading the fear, you are making Islam our to be the new nazi's or communists.
He didn't say islam, he said radical islam. Radical Islam and internationalist terrorism is a politico-religious movement that is highly militant,
extremely intolerant, and extraordinarily dangerous. They are
the 'new' nazis and communists, that's why Bush phrased the war on terror as
involving the "Axis (reference to the rome-berlin-tokyo axis) of Evil (reference to the 'evil empire' of the soviets)".
Just because they have elected a party that does not hold the same capatilistic views as your own,
Economics has nothing to do with it. Infact, I haven't heard of the econimic planks of the Hamas "platform". Hamas is not an ecomic-political
party. Its a paramilitary organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and is
engaged in a guerilla-terrorist war against the yehudis.
THe election is perfectly legal. So was the election of the NDAP to power. That hardly means that they're not the bad guys here. THat hardly means
that Israel shouldn't demand that they stop using terrorism and continuing their guerilla war agianst them.
At least with Fatah there was a possibility of having two states. Not so with Hamas. Israel can't work with Hamas, because Hamas wants Israel gone,
whether its by gas chambers or expulsion. What possible reasonable response can the yehudis have to that, other than to hunt down and destroy everyone
in Hamas and continue to occupy their palestinian territory?
should i base all american goals/ambitions on the fanatical christian agenda?
You should certainly base your understanding of one particular extremist christian paramilitary army upon your understanding of radical militant
christianity, yes. Hamas is not 'just some muslims'.
palestine did exist BUT it was a jewish state, not muslim, the original palestinians were jews
This is all silly really. The portion of land that is now syria, lebanon, the sinai and israel was once called "THe Levant". It was made up of
lots of different peoples. One of these peoples were called "The Hebrews". Their own religico-politico myths of their founding was that they came
from somehwere else, sometimes Ur, sometimes Egypt. Thats truly ancient history. Then later, The Levant was essentially part of an extended Egyptian
Empire. Then that fell. TThen much later, it was run by the persians. They took some of the peoples from that region and moved them to places like
iraq. They took other peoples from iraq and iran and moved them into the levant. Then that fell. Then some greeks moved in. Then the romans seized
it. For most of the time before that, there were these people who had this temple in jerusalem who were the nominal local rulers. Sometimes they
were monotheists, sometimes they have pagan idols in their temples. Then the romans fell apart, then the arabs spread their empire. Then the turks
came in. And so on and so on.
This is all irrelevant. There are only two bases for land claims. "I personally live here" and "The law recognizes that this is mine". Muslim
Palestinians and Israeli Jews both
lived in British Palestine. So did the Druze, so did Christians, so did a lot of people. The British were
mandated Palestine by the only international legal organization that existed, the UN/League of Nations. They, the British, as legal owners of the
land, decided that of the people living there, that the Jews would be granted nominal local governance, and then the jews said "anyone who is a jew
can return here", and that lead to a lot of muslim palestinians being forced off their homes.
Most of those guys forced off their homes are dead
. Almost none of the people in Hamas have a cliam to any land in israel based on either the
"I lived there" bit or the "I legally own it" bit. And even if some of them did, thats
irrelevant, because the Palestinians went to war
, and, stupidly, lost the war
. That meant that they lost a claim to real ownership and sovereignty in what is now the occupied
territories, let alone
Israel proper. It has nothing to do with the bible, other than thats why jews from the rest of the world decided to
emmigrate to this new 'Jewish State".
why cant people quit making jews the bad guys?
The yehudis have done some pretty bad things since they were in power, and when the whole place was a part of the British Empire, the native jews were
terrorists also. So its understandable that people point these things out. The yehudis are also occupying another people, and thus they are,
literally, oppressing them, and thats 'not nice'. Those are the basies for criticism of the Isreali government. I'd say that its 'not nice' that
they oppress the palestinians, but then agian, I'd be hard pressed to explain why a people who've gone to war with you multiple times and are
currently engaged in a guerilla war against you shouldn't
The fighting between Israel and Palestine is two fold. For every attack, there is a revenge attack, by both sides.
The yehudi attacks aren't revenge attacks. The palestinians fire rockets and mortars into civilian towns and settlements. As a result, the yehudis
fire back, or go into the refugee camps in the palestinians territories and hunt down the people that fired upon them. They'll even assasinate the
people that are the organizers of the groups that perform the attacks. Thats not 'revenge', thats a police/military action that makes sense.
Imagine for a moment what it would be like if the yehudis were doing the same thing as hamas. A mortar is fired into a jewish town and kills some
civilians. The yehudis respond by firing dozens of guided missiles specifically into hospitals and schools with children and civilian patients in
them. They send out their attack helicpoters and mow down civilians indiscriminatly in markets at the height of traffic in the day. They send in
agents to plant bombs on railroad tracks that are used by tourists en route to holy shrines in the territory. And if a muslim approaches the Wailing
Wall or the Dome, even if there is no bloodshed, they send convoys into palestinian towns, round up civilians, and shoot them in the skulls and bury
them in mass graves.
Hell, even all that wouldn't be equivalent, because Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of isreal, not merely an end to the occupation in the
palestinian territory. It'd be like if the yehudis launched the full force of their army at the west bank, rounded up as many palestinians as
possible, and shot or deported as many of them as possible, burning all the houses, government buildings, and infrastructure as possible. And then,
after that, did the same to lebanon, syria, egypt, and, what the heck, fired a few missiles into Riyad.
you'd note that Hamas is making a political move to end the conflict through continuing negotiations
Not for nothing, not for rhetoric or to slam you or something, but this is an absolutely absurd proposition. Hamas is willing to negotiate if the
yehudi offer is "we'll disassemble our entire government, we'll disband our military, we'll give you the government offices, we'll give you the
military weapons, and we'll give individual palestinians as much land for private use as they and you see fit. And if you want to kick most of us
out, we're fine with that and we'll leave".
Otherwise, hamas is not interested in negotiation, its not interested in stopping
with the yehudis, and its not even
interested in restricting that war to soldiers
I don't really care about the 'state of israel'. I don't really care about the 'state of palestine'. If the two sides agreed to merge together
into "The Republic of Caanan", hell, I'd think that that's pretty god damned cool. But clearly the isrealis have a right to attack, occupy, and
fight anyone that seeks to attack, occupy, and fight them.