NEWS: 1000's Of Tribesmen Protest Against Alleged US Zawahiri Air Strike

Originally posted by Mayet

. So my opinion is that you are putting 2 and 2 together to make 10 and making whatever conclusion you want there.

Care to show me where I have come to any conclusions Mayet? You are grasping at straws when you assert things like that. Keep in Mind I did use question marks didn't I?

Also as name said western media does not have general access to the area and above all fanatical clerics are not known to hold news conferences spouting out what they are telling terrorists or followers to do.

Originally posted by shots
Also as name said western media does not have general access to the area and above all fanatical clerics are not known to hold news conferences spouting out what they are telling terrorists or followers to do.

So we go off of information fed to us from other people?

Information, which so thankfully is always right and never leads the United State's to make mistakes!

Odium ... yes. Part of espionage is gathering what is called
'human intelligence'. This is done in police work as well.
Sometimes you get snitches with an agenda, sometimes
you get people who come forward and want to do the right
thing, and sometimes you get people who come forward
for the $$$.

It's a tricky thing. But yes, part of the makeup of every country's
intelligence gathering is going on what humans say.

[edit on 1/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Odium

So we go off of information fed to us from other people?

No in my original comments I did not intend it to be taken that way as all. I was posing a question as to a possible reason why Pakistanis are protesting in such numbers.

Edit to add the following.

See this confirms what I suspected as a possibility as to who called for the protests. it was infact clerics who called for the protests. (Kindly note I am using a Packistani source)

The Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal had called for nationwide rallies to protest the 18 civilian deaths from Friday’s strike in the Damadola village in Bajaur.

Secular opposition parties and workers of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), a partner in the ruling coalition, also joined the protests.

Countrywide rallies condemn US attack

[edit on 1/16/2006 by shots]

Sorry then shots, misread what your point was.

FlyersFan, if this is the case surely capturing these people is more important so you can gain more "human intelligence" rather than killing them?

Here is a little added info on the MMF. Kindly note they are in opposition of the current leadership because it has joined with the US to fight terrorists.

In the Pakistani parliament, the MMA, is a coalition opposition, formed after Pakistan became a part of the "Global War on Terror". The coalition is united against the current government of President Pervez Musharraf because of his support in fighting global terror and allegedly putting the demands of the United States above the demands of his own people. The MMA benefitted immensely from two factors in the general elections of 2002, the sidelining of major political parties as well as anti-American sentiment in Pakistani border provinces because of Afghan war in 2001.

Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal

Originally posted by Odium
surely capturing these people is more important so you can gain more "human intelligence" rather than killing them?

Excellent question Odium.

I'm not in the military intellgence area so I don't have info on
what they think these people would know or not know.

Sitting on the outside and looking in, I come up with
different thoughts.

The first is - the purpose of the airstrike was to kill Zawihari.
He was strongly believed to be in a certain building. To what
purpose would it be to go in and capture people and ask them
where he was going to be if we already knew where he was?

The second thought is a bit different - Yes, go in and capture
Zawihari and try to get info from him. He might have info on UBL.

The third thought - kill him when you get the chance because
playing around would just lead to him having a chance to get away.

And the fourth and probably most important - the tribal areas of
Pakistan are unable to be controlled by it's own country. Even
the Pakistani military and law enforcement people won't go in.
It would be VERY difficult for us to go in and do an extraction
of any kind in this area, let alone do it without American casualties.
It's better to bomb Zawihari while we know where he is and risk
the loss of 'human intelligence' rather than put more American's
at risk.

So ... I am glad I'm not the ones making the decisions on this.
I don't have all the information to know what is the best course
of action. The folks in charge do have it and they made their
decision based on info that we simply don't have access to.



[edit on 1/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

But think of it like this:

This person who owns the house, knows Zawihari and how to contact him, Zawihari should in theory know where Bin Laden is...surely it would be wise to capture them and try to capture Bin Laden rather than to kill Zawihari?

It has been over 4 years since the attack on the Twin Towers, and to me it seems everytime they find a High Ranking member they kill them...if they do not gather the intelligence the people who brought those buildings down and killed those innocent people will never be brought to Justice. [Unless of course you thinking killing them is justice.]

In fact, the best way to crush Terrorism is to allow their leaders to rot in Prison for a long time in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Show them as the men they are, rather than the Prophets they try to be because death only makes them a martyr.

Originally posted by Odium

In fact, the best way to crush Terrorism is to allow their leaders to rot in Prison for a long time in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Probably for very good reasons the U.S. do not want this Terrorists to be in prison in Pakistan or Afghanistan?

Even if they are friends to the U.S. - who can trust their systems? They probably would be freed or pardoned after some years (remember, this happened in Germany with a Hezbollah terrorist some weeks ago)



[edit on 16-1-2006 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Klepto

Already addressed Odium - the TRIBAL LANDS of Pakistan run much
differently than towns here in the West. They know everything
that is happening in their tribal area. No one moves in or out without
permission from their tribal leaders. We aren't talking about cities
of a hundred thousand where no one knows each other and there
is freedom like here in the west. It's very different over there.

So tribal leaders know, but does a young child or his family and friends know? of course not, the only ones to know are those to whom this is important which is why the Tribal leaders and the individual affilliates know.

If I am wrong then I apologise but I have yet to see where what you have stated is to be considered correct. That all individuals, not just Tribal leaders and the associates know.

REPLY: If the "tribal leaders" knew that possible targets were hiding among innocent people, then it would fall upon THEM to either tell the innocents what was going on. If they didn't do that, then supporting the targets, to them, was more important than the lives of their own people.

There is still the question as to whether it was an attack by the US forces. considering the price on his head, many are those who would try to kill him.

LOL. And how to get the reward if there's no head left? In case I can give some minced meat to the authorities and claim it's Bin Laden, Zawahiri and Zarkawi on a platter, what's their address?

It was an attack by US forces, It killed Innocent people, the target walk free, the riots now are spreading all over the country, and the Pakistan leader is now condemning the attacks.

Anything new?

Originally posted by marg6043
It was an attack by US forces, It killed Innocent people, the target walk free, the riots now are spreading all over the country, and the Pakistan leader is now condemning the attacks.

Riots????? Just which riots are you talking about? I Have not heard of anyone damaging any property, but I have heard of people protesting.

You have to admit that the idea of offering a reward is ridiculous, who in their right mind is gonna say "yeah I know the guy you want and I'll take you to him" only to be told that they are getting nothing and if they do not co-operate then they will be sent back to town as a known informant - no money and everyone wants to kill you.

Originally posted by marg6043
It was an attack by US forces, It killed Innocent people,

So claims the tribal leaders and those who were harboring terrorists.
This may or may no be a true statement. 17 people are dead. It
is for sure that many of them were not only aware of the terrorists
in the midst ... THEY are the ones that invited the terrorists to join
them for a Muslim holiday.

the riots now are spreading all over the country,

There are no riots. There are a few hundred, perhaps a couple of
thousand tribesmen protesting ... protesting out in the middle of
nowhere, where no one goes except for their buddy terrorists.

the Pakistan leader is now condemning the attacks.

Of course. He knows that we bombed the bad guys and that they
will want to retaliate. The Pakistan president knows just how bad
these people are and he's afraid for his life. He probably wishes
we had wiped out the entire area instead of just 17 of them.*

* (that's MY opinion of how he feels and I have nothing to link to
suggesting that he has said this.)

Originally posted by Odium
[Unless of course you thinking killing them is justice.]

Yes I do.

Show them as the men they are, rather than the
Prophets they try to be because death only makes them a martyr.

I completely understand what you are saying. Part of me agrees with
it. However, part of me also knows that when you get a terrorist mucky-
muck like UBL or Zawahiri you can't let them stay in jail. Their terrorist
followers would go out and take hostages, threaten terror strikes, etc.
in order to get their jailed comrads freed.

It's safer for all of us to have them dead.

Originally posted by Klepto
You have to admit that the idea of offering a reward is ridiculous,

It was the rewards offered on Saddam's sons that nabbed them for us.
The Iraqi fellow who turned the sons in got his millions and relocated
himself and his family ... to England I think.

It worked then. It could work now.

fom Flyers Fan
The third thought - kill him when you get the chance because
playing around would just lead to him having a chance to get away.

This is probably the only option we'll ever get. I remember hearing that bin Laden's bodyguards have orders to kill him if capture is imminent; I'd bet that Zawahiri has the same edict.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by jsobecky]

jsobecky .. whatever it takes. Us ... them ... as long
as UBL is dead I don't care who takes him out.
The world will be a better place without him.