Project Specter Research Project!

Originally posted by Browno
If anyone has read the tom clancy book 'Red Storm Rising', There is an F-19 mentioned in the book and its codename is 'Ghostrider'. It would well refer to the Testors one becouse the book was released the same year 1986 as the model, The Monogram F-19 was released a year later in 1987.
[edit on 21-12-2005 by Browno]

Browno,

I think you might have the link between the book and the model backwards! However, the link might still be a Critical clue.

Books take years to write and publish (I'm working on one that I started 3 years ago.) If there is a link, it would have to be that the model is based on the book. However, there is the possibility that both are based on something that leaked out of the Defense Department a few years earlier. If this is the case, we have our next move: We have the puddle, now let's find the Leak!

Do you have any way to look into the history behind the story Red Storm Rising? If you can find anything, it might be the break we need. U2U me if you need help!

Tim

EDIT: Fixed Typo

[edit on 22-12-2005 by ghost]

[edit on 28-12-2005 by asala]

I dont have the Monogram F-19 'Mystery Plane' myself but i was looking at the box on E-Bay and i found a caption on the side of the box saying:

The nickname 'Specter' is appropriate for this ghostlike aircraft designed to evade detection by enemy radar monitors. Shrouded in secrecy since this idea was conceived, detailed information about this mystery aircraft have been remarkably elusive.

I would also like to see a technical drawing of it too, I believe you may get it if you get a grip of one, They are quite hard to find.

I put all these F-19 Specter sites on the other page becouse they are very hard to find and most people see the F-19 as the Testors one that looks like a 'Mini SR-71' so im trying to find as many Monogram F-19s as i can.

Also on the other page when someone claims to have seen a black droopy looking aircraft about F-111ish size fly past the airliner he was on.

It must be an Interceptor if its F-111ish size and 'Droopy' wings, 'Rounded' canards? Maybe the Monogram F-19 could be based on that particular aircraft!

I think waynos was making up the faliours of the F-19 Specter becouse i dont think he likes the design much.

I found these specifications on one model site:

F-19A Specter Specifications

Length……………………………………………53ft 6in

Wingspan…………………………………………36ft 8in

Height………………………….…………………..8ft 4in

Max T/O Weight……………………………….34,200lbs

Combat Weight………………………………...26,625lbs

Max Speed……………………….………………..Mach 5

Cruising Speed…………………….…………..Mach 2.66

Service Ceiling…………………………………235,000ft

Max Ferry Range…………………………………6400nm

Combat Radius…………………………………...1870nm

Armament………………………....4 x AIM-120-W93-SP

Fire Control System...................... AN/APQ-125C with
cryogenically cooled infra-red and temporal/magnetic search
and track fire control functions.

Engines…2 x Aerodyne HJ-20 with 36,000lbs thrust each

Construction…………Cyano-acrylically bonded graphite/
epoxy fuselage and wing, titanium
engine nacelles, Lumispex-coated
canopy, all sheathed by classified
proprietary RAM

Crew……………..1 in D model, 2 in E model (eight built)

Browno, it was nothing to do with whether I liked it or not. It my honest appraisla of the designs faults, however I see your passion for it is unshakable and that is entirely your prerogative. My criticism is based on how impractical the design is (utterly useless fins, impossible ground rotation angles etc) while yours is based how cool it looks, think about it.

you do know that those 'specs' are completely made up for the kit box don't you? You don't think they come from any official source, obviously?

I haven't read the Clancy book, but I would say that the 'F-19' was rumoured as far back as 1981, it would be easy therefore to refer to this in a book, also the shape 'revealed' by testors had been the source of speculation for over three years prior to the model coming out, therefopre any actual similarity could be a coincidence, it would be wise to bear this in mind.

I'm all for finding the F-19/F-24/ CSIRS/ or whatever it ultimately proves to be called, but I don't think this search is in any way helped by constant reference to these two fictional models that were produced purely as cash ins at a time when the desire to SEE an F-19 meant people would readily accept anything that looked the part. There is no factual basis for the Monogram design, I feel the testors version is no less fictitious but might actually have roots in a real project.

In a programme about Roswell a very long time ago I recall an eyewitness of the 1947 crash recovery being asked to draw what he saw and he drew the plan outline of the testors F-19!!!!!

I have never seen a suitable explanation for this and it intrigues me to this day.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by waynos]

Hey Guys, can we try to avoid making this personal? We are trying to do Research Here! I'm not going to take sides, this message is for BOTH of you!

Guys, most of the Data I'm finding suggests that we are looking for a spy plane of some kind, with a secondary strike mission. If that is the case, we should be looking at the technical details of the design to see how they would work in two primary areas:

1. Reconnassance- Probably a mix of PHOTOINT and ELINT capibility.

2. Light Strike- Something simular to the F-117 with no more then 2-4 Air-to-Ground weapons at a time.

As for the Canard debate, may I suggest looking into the function of canards on an aircraft? I have been wondering why a Reconnassance and Strike aircraft would use canards anyway. The mission calls for a stable platform you can use to take photogragraphs, or drop smart weapons from!

It was this mission profile that lead me to look into the Flying Wing. Look at both of the model you have found and see how they might fit into the mission profile. Let me know if you need help!

Tim

Tim, I think you might be being oversensitive here, Browno just said what he thought and I didn't take it personally, I just pointed out why, in this case, he was mistaken. There are no personal remarks in either post.

Anyhow, I agree with you on the primary mission for this aircraft and that is why I lean towards a shape that might resemble either the A-12 Avenger or the 'Testors F-19' - the only reason I give any credence to this design over the other one is its very effectively shielded exhausts (with quite large and aerodynamically effective fins) and lifting body style design, in such a design the small canards may be an essential control device rather than for fancy manoevering. Any thoughts on the Roswell connection I mentioned?

I guess i should have just took it practical rather than going by its design, The fins were supposed to be twin rudders to steer the fighter and the canards are outlined on some images, It may have static canards like the Saab 37 Viggen or they could just have been stabilisers like the F-14 does underneath the engine nacelles.

Its airframe is based on a delta winged design with rounded shapes and angles to deflect radar beams.

Stealth aircraft also have special vents for the airflow to wash away heat signatures so the plane cannot be detected.

Anyway lets just get on with this thread.

I wonder what other aircraft apart from this 'F-19 Specter' has droopy shapes and rounded off corners and canards?.

This other 'Mystery plane' mentioned earlier may have a similar appearence to it but i think it still would have a totally different design being the size of an F-111 which is about 72ft long and quite stocky, The specifications for the 'F-19 Specter' is about 53ft long 35ft wide 8ft high(on ground) so it would be just under the size of a 'Gloster Javelin' which is well shorter than the F-111. Being F-111ish size, I would assume it is an Interceptor for a size like that.

Nellis area? I heard there is an AFB over there, I wonder if there is a secret facility/hangar for black aircraft?

There is aircraft/facilities even more secret than this roumored 'Aurora' black triangle recce platform and AREA 51, just that no one knows about it.

Not so sure like but i heard that the Lockheed Have Blue/F-117 Nighthawk was actually manufactured at Burbank Airport in California before it was revealed to the public back in 1988.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by Browno]

Browno, its the fins on the mongram version that are its 2nd most useless feature (the first is that the undercarriage is so far forward that take off is impossible). to explain if I may, if you consider the airflow over the top of the delta wing by which lift is generated (in all planes, not just this one) then you can see that the fins have been cunningly designed to match this curvature almost completely and therefore be entirely within the area of least air pressure at all times, what this effectively means is that those fins (or rudders) could turn as much as they wanted and make no difference at all to the direction in which the plane was flying, bearing that in mind then you would think that their inward canted design is a good way to mask the exhaust from the jet engines? Yet you can clearly see that they are nowhere near them. Do you see where I'm coming from with this? I'm not getting at you personally but I really think that design is completely unflyable in that configuration. It is possible that it would work very well with 'testors' style fins and the undercarriage moved further back, but I have to ask myself, if they got these basis details so very very wrong, how likely is it then that the design exists at all?

Originally posted by waynos
In a programme about Roswell a very long time ago I recall an eyewitness of the 1947 crash recovery being asked to draw what he saw and he drew the plan outline of the testors F-19!!!!!

[edit on 22-12-2005 by waynos]

Roswell!

Ok Waynos, now your getting me intrested! However, I'm not sure how to take your comment on Roswell. Are you suggesting that the F-19 design might have been based on the craft recovered from Roswell in 1947? Or, are you suggesting that a precurser of the F-19 might have crashed in Roswell?

Is this the model of the Roswell UFO that you are using for comparison?



Below is the most common F-19 model:



I personally didn't think they were that similar. However, if you think there is enough similarity to make a connection between the two of them, let's check it out. If you believe popular folk lore, both of these craft might have ties to Area 51. We know from Earilier Area 51 research, that the CIA and USAF work together to reverse engineer foreign technology (Mostly Migs and Russian hardwear). Intresting though Waynos, fallow it and let us know what you find.

Tim


[edit on 23-12-2005 by ghost]

Originally posted by waynos

Anyhow, I agree with you on the primary mission for this aircraft and that is why I lean towards a shape that might resemble either the A-12 Avenger or the 'Testors F-19' - the only reason I give any credence to this design over the other one is its very effectively shielded exhausts (with quite large and aerodynamically effective fins) and lifting body style design, in such a design the small canards may be an essential control device rather than for fancy manoevering. Any thoughts on the Roswell connection I mentioned?

I have one question about your theory. If the vertical fins are there to hide the exhaust's IR signature, shouldn't they be sitting further back? Look at the fins of Have Blue:



The fins extend well past the tail pipe of the jet. The theory behind it is to create a semi-open, but sheltered area on top of the plane where the exhaust can mix with the cold air stream surrounding the plane and dissipate some of it's heat before it becomes visible. Also the fins Block the view of the jet's tail pipe except from the 6 O'clock position.

Base on the above logic, the tail fins seem poorly placed if they are there to sheild the exhaust.

Side Note: The downward turned wingtips seem like a waverider concept. However Waverider are mainly for Hypersonic Flight, so I can't see why the F-19 would be a wave rider.

Tim

[edit on 23-12-2005 by ghost]

No Tim, I didn't mean either of those pictures, I meant this one;


As I said, in the interview the guy, who claimed he was involved in the recovery of whatever crashed there (and I am familiar with ALL explanations from spaceships through Mogul and to weather ballons) and when the interviewer asked him to draw what he had seen he drew the exact shape of the plan outline of this model. I was immediately struck by the similarity and I have to say I don't know what to make of this connection.

conjectural thoughts by me;

maybe the plane is somehow developed from what crashed there? I don't think it was really a precursor variant as tech wasn't sufficiently advanced, I also have problems believing it was alien so I am stuck here.

cynical version - maybe the guys grandson had an F-19 model and he drew that?

I honestly do not know.


edit; on secon look I can see how the design above might somehow have evolved from the model you posted;


ogival shape, inward canted fins, hmmmm.

Also, in reply to your second post on the exhaust shielding, you seem to be referring to the mongram design, if you look at my previous post you will see that I make this exact same point in response to Browno, however the testors version has the exhausts extremely well shielded beneath the fins and behind the 'beavertail', also visible in the picture in this post.



[edit on 23-12-2005 by waynos]

I read about this somewhere, I tried to find the exact quote, but I was unable to fin the link at all... But I remember that they wrote something about the F-117 and F-19 to be "competetors"... The F-117 won, and they closed the F-19 program... Could this be the solution...??

Originally posted by ghost
Good Question! I have a theory on that: Back in the 1950's Northrop found out that the flying wing was stealthy on radar using curves. Also, the SR-71 achieved stealthy qualities using curves in the 1960's. What if the Defense Department tried both ideas at the same time to see which one worked better? Remember: You can't take everything the government tells you at face value!

They did it. Because that we have CSIRS and THAP studies, in 1978 trasformed to BSAX (Battlefield Surveillance Aircraft, Experimental) or in other words Northrop Tacit Blue. BSAX was a part of large program Pave Mover.

Take into consideration that a long time (till 1984) it was believed, that Tacit Blue will receive operational SLAR radar and will enter service.

So I have another question: Who is the manufacturer of the F-19?

General Dynamics N.A.A and McDonnelDouglas are now part of the Boeing Corporation, I dont really think it would be any of them but it would most likeley to be Northrop Grumman becouse the F-117 was Lockheed Martin, Northrop are Lockheeds biggest rival so the F-19 could be thier project unless lockheed had two design teams? not sure.

How about Rockwell International? They have curved and rounded shapes/edges in thier aircraft designs. They once had a nice ATF on the drawing board.

Im not saying the Monogram F-19 is true but the story on the project specter site may have some ideas to the whole programme.

modelingmadness.com...

There are nice F-19 Specter images on this site, Designated R-5D Sceptre

m2reviews.cnsi.net...

Waynos, I have noticed the rear landing gear on the 'Specter', It does look hard to take off with it. Some of these model designers havent got a clue about Aircraft designs and Airworthiness so they end up designing somthing that would be pathetic.

Guess the Monogram F-19 designer has messed up his own design!

Just if we could all go back and advise the designer to re-design it!

I sometimes hear the F-19 is based on alien technology


Lockheed F19

Roswell

UFO

UFO 2

[edit on 28-12-2005 by DJDOHBOY]

Are you sure about those companies? I mean, wouldn't the F-16 now be the Boeing F-16 rather than the Lockheed F-16, if GD was taken over by Boeing?

Originally posted by waynos
Are you sure about those companies? I mean, wouldn't the F-16 now be the Boeing F-16 rather than the Lockheed F-16, if GD was taken over by Boeing?

In 1993 Lockheed acquired the space systems division of General Dynamics, including their Fort Worth plant where the F-16 fighter was built.

Found this, The first image looks F-19ish

www.unmuseum.org...

About the F-16, was formerly a GD product and now Lockheed? unless only the F-16 production line was transferred to them.

For example, becouse GD is now Boeing so the F-111 would now be listed as 'Boeing F-111 Aardvark'?

Well, I think that the F-19 isn't a "special plane"... it's not UFO... nice link tough...

Originally posted by Browno
General Dynamics N.A.A and McDonnelDouglas are now part of the Boeing Corporation, I dont really think it would be any of them but it would most likeley to be Northrop Grumman becouse the F-117 was Lockheed Martin, Northrop are Lockheeds biggest rival so the F-19 could be thier project unless lockheed had two design teams? not sure.

How about Rockwell International? They have curved and rounded shapes/edges in thier aircraft designs. They once had a nice ATF on the drawing board.

Personally, I think Northrop design the F-19! That is the main reason I proposed the Idea that the plane might even be a flying wing like the B-2. Northop and Lockheed are the world's leaders in stealth

As for your theory on Rockwell, possible, but not likely. When the Air Force issue it's Request For Proposals for the ATB (Stealth Bomber), they teamed up with Lockheed because they didn't have enough technical background in stealth technology to compete on their own. Now, McDonald Douglas did build a stealth demonstrator called the Bird of Prey:



As far a the scientific and technical experties, only Northrop, Lockheed, and McDonald Douglas (Now Boeing) would have had the ability to build a stealth aircraft at that time. If Rockwell did build it, they would have needed help from one of the above contractors. This makes it unlikely that they could have been the primary contractor. Remeber: Steath Technology was still a Black Project when the F-19 would have been design and built, so the technical knowlege wouldn't have been easy to aquire at that time.

Tim

Hey, Look at this!

Here a drawing of the Tactical High Altitude Penatrator (THAP):



Here's the Roswell UFO:



Now Don't they look simular? They are Not exactlly the same, but pretty close, huh? If you cross the two of them, and drop the vertical fins, what would you get? Maybe an F-19!

Tim