Project Specter Research Project!

Notice: This is a Serious Research Effort! It's not being put in the Research Fourm because I don't have the time to meet ATS committments for "Official Research"! I AM ASKING THAT ALL FOURM USERS RESPECT OUR EFFORTS AND NOT USE THIS THREAD FOR WILD OPPINION POSTS!

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO HELP, PLEASE BE SERIOUS, AND LET ME KNOW VIA U2U!


Introduction: Project Specter is one of the oldest roumored Black Aircraft Projects in the US. Also referred to as the F-19 Stealth Fighter, Project Specter traces it roots back to the eariliest days of the US Stealth Aircraft program. For many years, it was the acceped designation for the Air Force's Stealth Fighter. In 1988, Lockheed revealed the F-117 Nighthawk to the world. Many acceped the Story that the F-19 was a simple misdesignation for the F-117. However, in the earily 1990's roumors of the F-19 and Project Spector surfaced again. Ever since, the F-19 seems to come back from time to time. Even on ATS were we strive to find the truth, F-19 roumors come back Time and again. To add to the mess, their are stories of an F-24 that sound similar to the F-19. Now, I hope to find out once and for All, what Project Spector is and if the F-19 or F-24 is or was ever real. Starting with the theory that is is real, we will see what can be learned.

Goals:

1. To determin the origion of Project Spector and the Term Covert Survivable In-weather Reconnassance and Strike (CSIRS).

2. Determine if F-19 was ever assign to a black project, and if that porject still exists.

3. Investigate a little known link between the Air Force and the CIA's Office of Covert Actions within the Direcorate of Operations, to see if the CIA might be involved.

4. Make a reasonable estiment of how many of these planes might exist.

5. Study unconfirmed report of secret US activities around the world to see if there are any F-19/F-24 sighting, and where they might have been used.

Team:

ghost (TL)
waynos
Brownos
Matej
Anyone who wants to join, please u2u me before posting to the thread! Good luck!

Tim

PS: Please include all data sources so we can retrace our steps and confirm facts if needed. If you info comes off the internet, include a link for ease of fallow up!

[edit on 19-12-2005 by ghost]

[edit on 19-12-2005 by ghost]

Here are some quick facts on the F-19:

*The Designation F-19 first appeared in the mid to late 1980's (Noone can Pin it down exactally)

*In July 1986, the first F-19 model came out.

*The Air Force claims that F-19 was never used. This clain cannot be verified by any known source!

While not much, it is a start!

Tim

So, I willl do my best to help you... I U2U to you... Did you get my message...??

Ijust found a claim theat the aircraft from Prject Spector might be unmanned. If this claim is true, the F-19 might not be Project Spector after all. Let's chase the facts and see what else we find. Focus of the F-19, but keep an open mind untill we know more.

Project Spector

Note: The above file only exists in PDF format.

Tim

What does the plane look like... here are some guesses...

Not the Testors one as pictured above, THESE ones made by Monogram!

www.fantastic-plastic.com...

m2reviews.cnsi.net...

modelingmadness.com...

Guess you never seen these ones before!.

I still quite like the Testors one still but it is airframe is Innacurate till you see the Monogram one!

Actually, it is my personal belief that IF either of the testors or monogram designs have any basis in fact (and I am far from convinced either of them are) then I feel the testors design is the most credible. True, it will never make an agile fighter, but as a low observable light attack and recce platform it fits the bill perfectly, I find the monogram design too 'cartoony' and I have pointed out in another thread some of the designs many failings.

HOWEVER - this and the posts preceding it are speculative and that is not what this thread is about, please lets leave the guesswork elsewhere unless accompanied by hard research to back it up.

I am getting nowhere as yet and it is making me grouchy

If the Testors F-19 was built, I agree it probably wont be an agile fighter but a good attack/recce platform for low level sneaky night missions. I do admit with you from some points, The Monogram F-19 does look a bit 'Blagg' Even my dad said too, But i think it depends what paint scheme it is in. Still like the Testors one but the Monogram one is more 'Fighter' like, The F-19 Specter looks better in black/dark gray becouse it looks more like some 'Evil Satanic' looking aircraft, Im not a Goth or anything but i like these Evil designs. The kit was also availiable in a 'Glow in the dark' version.

Well they were both Delta winged designs with extremeley rounded corners and shapes and both had front canards

In my head and on a drawing pad, I have re-designed the 'Specter's Air-Intakes by adding the same 'Engine Hump' underneath and the existing one will be sealed off, Add a more heavy duty F/A-18 nose leg to the front and it will use two F-16 type engines, There will be three variants

F-19 Interceptor- Carries Sidewinder/Sparrow/AMARAAM Missiles

F-19 Fighter- Same as above but with a M61A2 Vulcan Gun installed in nose for the event of 'Dog Fighting'

F-19 Strike Aircraft- Can be used as Attacker/Bomber or Strike Fighter and Has Rotating Weapons Pallet installed. It will be used for surgical prescicsion air strikes like the mission of the F-117 Nighthawk

Some variants are 2 seaters and they can also be 'Carrier Capable' since it has a tailhook installed

Afterall, it may be sound the way it already was!

Never mind all that, This project specTOR sounds different to the F-19 project specTER, I believe it could be a stealth UCAV or some secret attacker/bomber project that may have been abandoned or under process.

What is this F-24 then? It must be a fighter more than a UCAV with the F designation, Could it be another ATF in progress or a secret black project?

Waynos, was the fighter jet image on the other thread an existing aircraft or just a blagg made up fighter jet?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If it is real, it may likeley be an F-24.

There was also a concept of a Rockwell ATF, It was a nice smooth design and it had an F-16 cockpit too.

www.aircraftdesign.com...

www.aircraftdesign.com...

www.aircraftdesign.com...

www.aircraftdesign.com...

Some old threads to help you boyz

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...





[edit on 5-5-2006 by Browno]

This is speculative but may be of use. Although the exact layout and lines of the F-19 are quite different from the Have Blue design, certain unusual characteristics are similar to the popular image of the F-19; inward canted tail, leading edge right to nose, intakes on upper surfaces, small size etc. It seems possible that rumors of the Have Blue, B2 and F-117 projects were combined in the popular imagination and given a ‘form’ (F-19) that stuck. Remember that although these projects were officially secret, in reality thousands of people worked on them in one way or another –there simply had to be leaks.

It seems possible that the F-19 is the Have Blue with bits of F-117 and B2 (et al) slipping in -and a bit of SR-71 for good measure.

Lets start from this:

www.hitechweb.szm.sk/Xtras/project.zip

There are also two pages from original book Stealth Warplanes from 1988 (?). It is printed in czech language, so probably nobody of you will understand it. But it does not matter, because I want to point out, how people during this era (late 80s) imagined stealth plane. In many artists impressions it was CURVED plane with ogival wing and cannards - the same as F-19. The future showed, that it was wrong.

In case of any stealth plane we must answer these questions:

1. Why it has curved and not faceted fuselage (when it belong to 1st generation of stealth planes)?

2. What is the purpose of this plane? Or by using another words - is USAF able to apply this type of machine (take into consideration costs and effectivity)?

3. How much information had people about stealth in this era. Was it enough or were they forced to speculate (and create their own conclusions)?

4. Connections with other planes and programs.

Originally posted by matej
Lets start from this:

www.hitechweb.szm.sk/Xtras/project.zip

There are also two pages from original book Stealth Warplanes from 1988 (?). It is printed in czech language, so probably nobody of you will understand it. But it does not matter, because I want to point out, how people during this era (late 80s) imagined stealth plane. In many artists impressions it was CURVED plane with ogival wing and cannards - the same as F-19. The future showed, that it was wrong.

In case of any stealth plane we must answer these questions:

1. Why it has curved and not faceted fuselage (when it belong to 1st generation of stealth planes)?

Good Question! I have a theory on that: Back in the 1950's Northrop found out that the flying wing was stealthy on radar using curves. Also, the SR-71 achieved stealthy qualities using curves in the 1960's. What if the Defense Department tried both ideas at the same time to see which one worked better? Remember: You can't take everything the government tells you at face value!

2. What is the purpose of this plane? Or by using another words - is USAF able to apply this type of machine (take into consideration costs and effectivity)?

If the F-19 is related to CSIRS, the primary mission should be spying! CSIRS stands for Covert Survivable In-weather Reconnassiance and Strike. If it is used for covert spy missions, that might explaine why it's still Top Secret.

3. How much information had people about stealth in this era. Was it enough or were they forced to speculate (and create their own conclusions)?

While Information on Stealth was very limited, there were some reliable bits of info out there. For example, the shaping concept was based on simple physics. If you use flowing curves, Radar tends to creep along the surface instead of being reflected back. This is the basic science behind the B-2 spirit and the F-22, and YF-23. Also, we don't know what the F-19 really looks like. (For the sake of objective research, I would like us all to keep an open mind about how this plane looks! (I'll post more on that later)

4. Connections with other planes and programs.

I don't know about this yet. Lets keep looking and see what we find!

Tim

Just a friendly reminder: I want to fallow up on BOTH the F-19 theories and the F-24 theories of Project Spector. Here are some ideas about how I think the plane might look:

If the Plane looks more like the F-24 concept, we might be looking for something that looks like this:



After all, we have aleast one link that suggests that Project Specter might be a Northrop program. The flying wing is Northrop's best known stealth design. Also, Don't let the "F" designation fool you. The F-117 is not really a fighter, it's a strike aircraft. All the sources I have see describe the F-19 as a "Delta Wing Aircraft". Delta is a triangle, so the A-12 Avenger is also a delta winged aircraft.

Research Tip:Keep an open mind, and it will be easier to find leeds and info. Let the data shape your oppinions! (I'm currently looking into both concepts)

Tim

I have two conflicting tidbits on the Aircraft's Top Speed:

1. Many sources suggest supersonic speed (Mach 1- Mach 2)

2. Timeing, the fact that the Specter Project is first generation stealth suggests that a subsonic speed would be more likely.

Any Ideas?

Tim

An other question, as we know all planes have a "call sign" Hornet, Flanker, Eagle... What was the F-19 name...??

Could this be the correct design of the F-19...??




New fact

Apparently a USAAF spokesman have claimed that the F-19 doesn't exist. It was skipped becasue of the fear of confuison between the Sovjet Mig-19. However this is not a good explanation, because F-17, F-21, and F-23 had not been skipped...

home.att.net...

www.answers.com...;jsessionid=45288dr1ppmlp?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=F-19&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a&linktext=F-19

[edit on 21-12-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

I heard that explanation too, aqnd it has to be the biggest load of bull ever issued

If anything would make me think that there was a secret F-19 somewhere then that explanation would be it. The MiG 19 was already ancient history long before the 'stealth fighter' programme began so why on earth would they 'avoid confusion' with it

If anyone has read the tom clancy book 'Red Storm Rising', There is an F-19 mentioned in the book and its codename is 'Ghostrider'. It would well refer to the Testors one becouse the book was released the same year 1986 as the model, The Monogram F-19 was released a year later in 1987.

The F-4 Phantom was originally designated F-110 'SpecTRE' but was re-named the F-4 Phantom, There is also a Hercules gunship called the AC-130 'Spectre'.

I have a book called 'Stealth Warplanes' by doug richardson published 1988, The names for this 'F-19' or 'Stealth fighter' in the book were ghost-related names such as 'Spooky' etc, SpecTER (not SpecTRE) was one of the names i seen in the paragraph. There was also an artists conception of an 'F-19' that also happened to be another model kit of the same description.

This site contains the stealth fighter conception i mentioned above, I dont think its a Monogram one, It could be made by Kasatosi? Not sure.

www.h4.dion.ne.jp...

Not so bad design but this one looks too 'nerdy' compared to the other two interpretations.

www.inpayne.com...

s96920072.onlinehome.us...

s96920072.onlinehome.us...

204.50.25.179...


www.ericksmodels.com...
www.ericksmodels.com...
www.ericksmodels.com...
www.ericksmodels.com...

www.mkzobor.host.sk...

The F-111 Aardvark was also thought about being designated 'F-19'

Some more stuff

apma.org.au...

apma.org.au...

apma.org.au...

apma.org.au...

www.geocities.com...





[edit on 21-12-2005 by Browno]

The Monogram stealth fighter conversion of your first link (kasatosi) matches an illustration used on the cover of a commercial/advertising document from Loral iirc.

Intelgurl Has provided us with the fallowing Tidbit:

quote: I'm not so wure that the Project Specter that the Korean web site mentions is the same as the Project Specter F-19 you are searching for.

A close friend of mine saw an aircraft fitting the description of your Project Specter on a flight from El Paso to San Francisco - as the sun was setting on the western horizon this streamilined aircraft with rounded edges on its wings and canards flew under the aircraft he was in. He was unsure about any vertical stabilizers but he was very sure that the aircraft sort of "drooped" on the outer ends of the wings.
He also described it as being about the size of an F-111, black in color and headed south as if it had just taken off from Nellis area.

Thank Intelgurl! This tidbit provides us proof that there is something out there fitting the discription of the F-19. While it doesn't prove that we've found the F-19, we now have a leed that proves that there is more to this then just a roumor. Sighting are always helpful.

Tim

This is purely a THEORY, and open to be proven or disproven!

What if the CIA is involved in the effort? We all Know that the Central Intelligence Agency is the head agency of the US Intelligence Community, and that the Director of Central Intelligence, who is also the head of the CIA submitts the national intelligence budget.

CIA

The link provied some insight into the CIA and it's mission. Even if they don't fly the plane, they might still have input on how it's used and when. Maybe the CIA and the US Air Force have finally learned to work together.

Second, the Covert Reconnassance part if the CSIRS mission sounds like the activities of the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology, while the strike part could be a function of the Covert Actions Staff within the CIA's Directorate of Operations. The CSIRS mission might be tasked by the CIA.

Tim

Take a look at what I've just found:

CSIRS- Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconiassance/Strike. Claimed development project that created the TR-3A stealth recce aircraft and the F-117.

I never though of this, but it sounds reasonable. CSIRS might involve two different aircraft that work together. It's not conclusive, but it's another lead we can chase! Any thoughts on the idea of two planes hiding under one cover?

Here's the website: Acronyms and Codenames

The site suggests that the F-117 is one of the planes. Any Ideas how to see if this is true? Also, why did they reveal 1/2 of the system and continue to hide the other part? Something about the F-117 being part of a covert system seems odd to me, but let's see if it's true. If it turns out that we are looking for two aircraft, this could get complicated. Any Ideas to make it easier?

Tim

[edit on 22-12-2005 by ghost]