What wars have the US really lost?

deltaboy:

You never heard of Osama calling for war against Americans and to kill American men, women and children, both civliian and military?

Actually, he was asking for US troops to be removed from Islam's holiest sites, and to get foreign troops off Arab soil. He didn't just say "Ok look out I am going to kill you all, praise Allah". He had demands (many of which have been fulfilled) and specific sticking points.

Where have YOU been?

Have you ever actually SEEN the text of his initial demand? Or of the fatwa he issued in 1998? You ought to, since you'd see that it's not all drooling and bloodthirsty howling. A lot of it IS insane, mind you, but no moreso than many wild Bush speeches I've seen that seem to be totally disconnected from reality.



[edit on 13-12-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo


Wow, how dramatic and testosteroney.

I had forgotten, of course, that 9-11 was not just a terrorist attack, it was a declaration of WAR by all the nasty and evil dark-skinned non-Christian, non-American people out there in the world who don't like you. Who hate freedom and eat babies and spend all day plotting to destroy your country.

My mistake.

Do you watch Fox News perchance?

Thank you for the compliments! But it appears that you are swaying a bit off topic! America has never lost a war! That is the topic, not how you perceive Americans to be. Yes I do watch Foxnews, CNN, MSNBC, Reuters, BBC, SKYNEWS and my macaw Pedro especially likes Bill O'Rielly.

Originally posted by Jakomo

Actually, he was asking for US troops to be removed from Islam's holiest sites, and to get foreign troops off Arab soil. He didn't just say "Ok look out I am going to kill you all, praise Allah". He had demands (many of which have been fulfilled) and specific sticking points.

Where have YOU been?

You sure thats all Osama wanted? I remember he mentioned about attacking America on 9/11 was response to the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Not even mentioning about Saudia Arabia. Ironic. And what about attacks on Shiites and Buddists and Hindus, supporting organizations in the Phillipines and other countries. In dozens of countries. And also he didnt say just about America but something about the West which does not include just America. Must be the Caliphate thing. Islamic empire. Not to mention calling the west Crusaders which was long time ago even before America was born, but it was Europe and back then there was an Islamic empire.

WHOFLUNGGUM:

America has never lost a war!

Yeah, well excuse me if I don't just take your word for it, m'kay? I think I'll take the points of view of actual people who follow history, and who were there and who lived through it and saw the aftermaths of some of these "won" wars.

I have come across a few people who claim that the United States actually did win the war in Vietnam, but I since found that both of them were on medication.

delta: Don't ask me, find out for yourself.

jako



[edit on 13-12-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo
delta: Don't ask me, find out for yourself.

jako

I already did. Maybe you like to know more of Osama? But then you just be in a state of denial.

Vietnam was a loss any way you slice it.
All the revisionist history on the planet won't change that.

Korea was a draw militarily, but politically a victory for the US, as the mission was to defend South Korea from a North Korean invasion, and South Korea by all reports continues to exist

The most recent Iraq War was militarily a victory, but politically seems to be shaping up as a loss. The invasion was a major sucess, the occupation so far... not so much. Right now the eventual outcome seems to be an Iranian-aligned Shiite government fighting a permanent civil war with the Sunni minority.

Still Saddam's governemt is kaput, and still doesn't have the WMD's they apparently hadn't had since 1991, so in terms of the originally stated goals of the invasion, it's already a victory in a narrow sense.

deltaboy:

I already did. Maybe you like to know more of Osama? But then you just be in a state of denial.

Haha, good answer. I say learn more about Osama and you say "I already did". Haha.

As for the "state of denial" you say I'd be in if I learned more about him:

Sense.

Make it.


I won't be responding to you anymore unless we're on topic, cuz we've gone way off. Sorry everyone.

jako



[edit on 13-12-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Did you leave Vietnam a better place than it was when you arrived? Didn't it split into two countries, one being Communist? That's a win?

Same thing with Korea. Was it better when you left? Didn't North Korea just become a dictatorship after the war?

Your history doesn't square with any facts anywhere. Please start over.

For example, both Korea and Viet Nam were split before both wars.

Originally posted by Jakomo

Haha, good answer. I say learn more about Osama and you say "I already did". Haha.

Haha yes like I studied him long time ago. I dont know if you study him at all.

As for the "state of denial" you say I'd be in if I learned more about him:

It would mean that even if you studied him, you pretty much deny what I already spelled out about his intentions and that what he is doing is wrong, but you may disagree with me on that.

centurion:

For example, both Korea and Viet Nam were split before both wars.

My mistake, I had been under the impression that Vietnam was 1 state before the war. I was totally off on Korea though

You still didn't "win" either.

deltaboy: I figured out to use the Ignore button. I never bothered before, so don't bother responding.


jako

Originally posted by Jakomo

My mistake, I had been under the impression that Vietnam was 1 state before the war. I was totally off on Korea though

You still didn't "win" either.

deltaboy: I figured out to use the Ignore button. I never bothered before, so don't bother responding.
jako

Mistakes like these you just made shows the ignorance that you revealed but then ignoring me means ignoring a person who could counter or correct you. But thats fine with me.

Which is:

War On Terrorism » What wars have the US really lost?

Let's confine the discussion to that, and not members.

Thanks.

whats funny is that before the vietnam war the country was split , but after the us got ejected the country was unifed

Originally posted by Harlequin
whats funny is that before the vietnam war the country was split , but after the us got ejected the country was unifed

Yeah its funny since North Vietnam wanted to take over South Vietnam in the first place and America was in the way for almost a decade until the U.S. pulled out and North Vietnam finally succeeded in taking over South Vietnam. Imagine if America withraw from South Korea back in the early 50s.

Seriously, on topic only.

Mod Edit: Removed Off Topic post.

[edit on 13/12/2005 by Mirthful Me]

About 30,000 civilians have been killed during the Iraq conflict, according to US President George Bush.
Herald Sun

I would assume that about 30,000 dead Iraqis would say we have lost that war.

Vietnam was never technically a war. America never declared war against North Vietnam. The Political climate of the time is what forced the troops to
withdraw, not defeat at the hands of an enemy. Also the US wasn't the only country fighting North Vietnam. The UK, Aussies, Canadians, New Zealanders and please don't forget the French were there fighting long before that. On the other side there were the Russians, Chinese, Cambodians, Laotians and North Vietnamese. So it was quite a smorgsborg
of countries. As long as we were bombing North Vietnam and its supply routes then they were loosing ground. It wasn't until the US and other troops were regulated to defensive poster by our Politicians did the mess get out of hand. It is a blemish on Americas past but it was a Politcal defeat not a military defeat. No opposing army has ever forced the US into a surrender. The only American Army to loose a war was the Confederate States Of America during the American Civil War. But hey the US won that one too!

Originally posted by curme

I would assume that about 30,000 dead Iraqis would say we have lost that war.

You assume wrong. The civilian casualties that reach 30,000 dont automatically mean you lost the war. Im surprise in you as a person who served in the military.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Which is:

War On Terrorism » What wars have the US really lost?

Let's confine the discussion to that, and not members.

Thanks.

The formal answer is none since WWI. The United States hasn't declared war on a foe since December 8, 1941 when the U.S. entered WWII.

Congress never declared war on Iraq, Viet Nam, or North Korea. These 'wars' were police actions brought on politics. That's why we lost.

The Vietnam conflict was lost because the NVA soldier could eat a bowl of rice, march 20 or 30 miles with no water, and still manage to kill a bunch of Americans because his heart was in it. The typical U.S. soldier didn't want to be there because most were poor draftees into an undeclared war and they felt they shouldn't even be there much less fight.

The Korean 'War' that was never really an American war has never ended. No peace declaration was ever signed to this day and to this day the 'war' continues.

Originally posted by Jakomo
The US doesn't fight defensive wars. They fight wars of aggression to further their own political and economic needs, then they tell the AMERICAN PEOPLE that it's a defensive war, and y'all eat it up.

Historical revisionism at its best...

Yeah, more of that blah, blah rhetoric, Jakomo.
Was WWI or WWII a war of aggression.
Was the Korean War a war of aggression?
Was the Vietnam War a war of aggression?
Was the First Gulf War a war of aggression?
Read a history book or two instead of that garbage you been reading, k?



seekerof

[edit on 13-12-2005 by Seekerof]