US Denies Mini-Guantanamo in Kosovo

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by nukunuku
look IAF101 if your country can put to trial serial killers that kill 100 people why dont these people that are not yet guilty of anything get a fair trial ?

hmmmm?

The reason is that a serial killer works alone and once confined he cant do much harm . Also he wouldnt know of any others like him that are planning mass deaths like 9/11 or 7/11 etc would he ?
These terrorists have something that is more important than their own lives, they have information that could help possibly save a city from a nuclear explosion or a bio-attack or a nerve agent or a 9/11 etc,. That is why it is imperitive that the suspect be detained first and then questioned throughly before he can face the law. If he is found to be forth comming he would only speed up his chance at a decent trial .

yes but even if he is forthcoming, he is assumed lying and tortured some more until he admits. How many have been trialed so far? Not that many...are you assuming they are all terrorists ?

Originally posted by Souljah
How many German Soldiers do you see in IRAQ Today?
....

That is the whole point!! They have shrugged their responsibility and sit without any remorse for their crimes. While it is the US and its allies that must tackle this menace and pay the price for the wrongs of the germans.
I have said that the germans distributed chemicals in Iraq because this person whom we are talking about is a german.

So, if they detain him for FIVE MONTHS, and then later release him, it's OK? With daily torture and abuse, such as was shown NUMERUS times in the Past? Under torture people would say and do anything, just to make it stop - a confession from torture can not be used as valid.

Most of the people who have been picked up have been under suspicion for some time already and when the CIA sees fit their interrogatoin it detains them. Would you have 100,000 people die because one man's legal rights were circumvented ?? That is unacceptable to the American people and to the people who have suffered from random acts by terrorists.
Also the point of such interrogation is not to obtain proof for courts but to obtain credible intelligence to save lives. I am sure the CIA knows how to interrogate a suspect and derive what it wants. I am also sure that they can differenciate between a persons true confession and a persons forced confessions. It is their job to do so.
As for Torture, that is a relative term. The treatment of detainees in Guantanamo, Cuba is not that different from many state prisions that are spread across the US, ask any ex-con . Yet that is not called as torture!

Originally posted by nukunuku

yes but even if he is forthcoming, he is assumed lying and tortured some more until he admits. How many have been trialed so far? Not that many...are you assuming they are all terrorists ?

Well, the fact is that their has not been any significant act of terror on the US since the CIA has been doing this. Terrorists are on the run and their networks are being infiltrated.
All this takes some sacrifice, the legal rights of a few need to be comparamised for the more important right to live of the many.
A person cannot admit what he has no idea of can he ? Also the CIA are trained to find out the truth during an interrogation. Many have been interrogated and many have been sent home. They will return alive home but they will cooperate with the War agaisnt terror. Some maynot be terrorists and may face undue torture but that is the price they have to pay now for not culling the spread of radical islam.
It is a sad reality but one that cannot be avaided either because the fate of the many depends upon it. Atleast the gaurantee that you will return with your life if you co-operate is enough assurance that the system is fair.
The CIA would never waste its time on someone who is of little importance would they?? Only when they are sure that they have whom they want will they seek to expend so many reasources to capture them

Just to "Steer" us back to the Topic,
here is an Update!

Would you have 100,000 people die because one man's legal rights were circumvented

Yes. because these are the very rights that ur country is based on.... u cannot run around the world acting high and mighty then break your own laws when things get out of hand.

If you say those rights apply to everyone then they apply to everyone. u cannot pick and choose who gets which rights.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Would you have 100,000 people die because one man's legal rights were circumvented

Yes. because these are the very rights that ur country is based on.... u cannot run around the world acting high and mighty then break your own laws when things get out of hand.

If you say those rights apply to everyone then they apply to everyone. u cannot pick and choose who gets which rights.

Your wrong here on so many levels.

I would choose the rights of 100 innocents over the rights of a suspected terrorist. IAF101 nailed it just right.

Perhaps when your town center is a smoking crater will you see the truth in what we're telling you. Right now....this very minute, theres Muslim terrorists planning to kill as many Americans, English and Australians as they can.

We should have a very low prisoner rate at these "mini-Guantanimos".....if they don't want to talk, shoot them and if they give false information....shoot them and than move on to the next prisoner.....I can guarantee he will start blabbing.


Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
I would choose the rights of 100 innocents over the rights of a suspected terrorist. IAF101 nailed it just right.

What about the Rights of 100 Innocent Children in the Hands of Terrorists in Africa - remember that Continent with several Civil Wars going on right at this moment?

OH wait a Minute - they are not in the Middle East, so they do not Count!

Perhaps when your town center is a smoking crater will you see the truth in what we're telling you. Right now....this very minute, theres Muslim terrorists planning to kill as many Americans, English and Australians as they can.

No less than 28 Sub-Saharan African states have been at war since 1980. There have been over 9.5 million refugees and hundreds and thousands of people have been slaughtered. If this scale of destruction and fighting was in Europe, then people would be calling it World War III with the entire world rushing to report, provide aid, mediate and otherwise try to diffuse the situation.

But since it is in Africa - nobody CARES.

We should have a very low prisoner rate at these "mini-Guantanimos".....if they don't want to talk, shoot them and if they give false information....shoot them and than move on to the next prisoner.....I can guarantee he will start blabbing.

...if they are a SUSPECTED "Terrorist" (like most), and really Can't tell you anything, since he does not KNOW anything! - Shoot'em Right?

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Yes. because these are the very rights that ur country is based on.... u cannot run around the world acting high and mighty then break your own laws when things get out of hand.

If you say those rights apply to everyone then they apply to everyone. u cannot pick and choose who gets which rights.

America is based on rights for all Americans, the constitution says nothing about foreign nationals in their countries.
More to the point, the US isnt breaking any laws! These people arent enemy soldiers nor are they civilians. They are terrorists and terrorists have no rights !
They become civilians if they are proven to be not a terrorist.
In the world today it is the very few that are doing anything about the menace of terrorism but those that are being chastised for cruelty or worse. The countries that foster these terrorists are doing NOTHING about them, if every country did their bit then we wouldnt have had this problem. But they havent and it is upto the US to take care of this.

Ha, I love what the UN guy said. “We have no idea what goes on in there” Like he is entitled to know WTF the US military does at its own bases

But that’s not the best part.

This is the part that really makes me laugh. Read this,

"There can't be any doubt that since several years a secret prison exists inside Camp Bondsteel, a prison that doesn't succumb to any civil or legal control,"

Ok now read this,

"In truth, we have no idea what goes on in there."

Anyone see the problem?

This man admits he has no idea what goes on in there yet he also says “There can't be any doubt”.

I just want to also point out that he has not provided any evidence to back his allegations up.
That's how the thinking works at the UN and other organizations, they don't know what goes on in US facilities so they will just automatically assume torture, and morons the world over will believe them.

This whole issue is a joke, along with this thread.

[edit on 13-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Would you have 100,000 people die because one man's legal rights were circumvented

Yes. because these are the very rights that ur country is based on.... u cannot run around the world acting high and mighty then break your own laws when things get out of hand.

If you say those rights apply to everyone then they apply to everyone. u cannot pick and choose who gets which rights.

Your wrong here on so many levels.

I would choose the rights of 100 innocents over the rights of a suspected terrorist. IAF101 nailed it just right.

Perhaps when your town center is a smoking crater will you see the truth in what we're telling you. Right now....this very minute, theres Muslim terrorists planning to kill as many Americans, English and Australians as they can.

We should have a very low prisoner rate at these "mini-Guantanimos".....if they don't want to talk, shoot them and if they give false information....shoot them and than move on to the next prisoner.....I can guarantee he will start blabbing.


Maximu§

What about when its u being held in one of these camps because u gave money to a charity that is "suspected" of funding terrorism, do i have to remind u of your own bill of rights namely Amendments 5 and 6.

As far as im concerned 4 years in a prison camp without charge is not a Speedy and Public trial. And dont talk to me about classifying them as POWs since the people being held havent been proven to have taken a shot at anybody.

You have voted IAF101 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Yes. because these are the very rights that ur country is based on.... u cannot run around the world acting high and mighty then break your own laws when things get out of hand.

If you say those rights apply to everyone then they apply to everyone. u cannot pick and choose who gets which rights.

America is based on rights for all Americans, the constitution says nothing about foreign nationals in their countries.
More to the point, the US isnt breaking any laws! These people arent enemy soldiers nor are they civilians. They are terrorists and terrorists have no rights !
They become civilians if they are proven to be not a terrorist.
In the world today it is the very few that are doing anything about the menace of terrorism but those that are being chastised for cruelty or worse. The countries that foster these terrorists are doing NOTHING about them, if every country did their bit then we wouldnt have had this problem. But they havent and it is upto the US to take care of this.

Those foreign nationals are being held on american soil and are therefore protected under your laws.

As for your statement that the are civilians when they are proven not to be a terrorist, that must be a joke. The presumption of innocence must be applied, why, because it is one of the reasons america is the super power it is today.

Why is it up to the us to dictate to other countries what they can and cannot do?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Like he is entitled to know WTF the US military does at its own bases

Typical Answer.

All the UN can do is "Ignore" and Let the US Military do what they want, and call that Democracy.

What does that tell Everybody in the World?

That's its ALL RIGHT to Torture - Hey, the Americans are doing it, why can't WE?

Great ROLE Model, aren't You?

Originally posted by Souljah
All the UN can do is "Ignore" and Let the US Military do what they want, and call that Democracy.

The teeth of the U.N. is the security council. The teeth of the security council is the U.S. That really leaves us in a quandry doesn't it? Who will police the police?

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Those foreign nationals are being held on american soil and are therefore protected under your laws.

No, those foreign fighters, insurgents, and terrorists, otherwise known as detainees, illegial combatants, POWs, are not.
They have no Constitutional rights, etc. as a US citizen.
They are entitled to humane treatment, as provided by International law.

Furthermore:

Leon concluded the detainees presented "no viable theory" to support their claim that they are being held in violation of federal laws. Foreign citizens captured and detained outside the United States have no rights under the Constitution or international law, he said.

WAR: Detainees Can't Challenge Confinement

The presumption of innocence must be applied, why, because it is one of the reasons america is the super power it is today.

There is no presumption of innocence when you are captured on the battlefield, etc.





seekerof

[edit on 13-12-2005 by Seekerof]

All the UN can do is "Ignore" and Let the US Military do what they want, and call that Democracy.

The UN should try and gather evidence first, before they allege anything about the US Military. I don't consider personal curiosity on the part of the UN to be a good enough reason for them to demand access to every US facility. For a further explanation see my above post.

What does that tell Everybody in the World?

That's its ALL RIGHT to Torture - Hey, the Americans are doing it, why can't WE?

The US does not condone torture, sure it has happed, but it’s not a stated policy.
And I also think the far more damaging message sent to the rest of the world is that they can basically do whatever they want unnoticed, because the UN and every other Human Right's group is spending 90% of their time and resources investigating the US.

Originally posted by IAF101
America is based on rights for all Americans, the constitution says nothing about foreign nationals in their countries.
More to the point, the US isnt breaking any laws! These people arent enemy soldiers nor are they civilians. They are terrorists and terrorists have no rights !

Of course they have rights. They are called human rights and they are universal. Unless you think they we're made by spontaneous combustion.

Oh, gosh! I think you did it!

Ladies and gentelmen!
I'm proud to anounce, that our distinguished colleague IAF101 had succede in something, that scientists around the world are searching for.

Yes, he found THE MISSING LINK.

One big round of applause for our ATS Member.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The UN should try and gather evidence first, before they allege anything about the US Military.

You mean EVIDENCE like US Goverment presented before the Invasion of Iraq - that Saddam has WMD's, that he is Connected to Al-Qaeda and that he is making a Nuclear Bomb?

If you did not Notice, all of the Above so-called "Evidence" was FAKED.

The US does not condone torture, sure it has happed, but it’s not a stated policy.

But ofcourse they don't - if Condy say so, the it must be TRUE!

Just like EVERYTHING Else that current US Goverment says - it is the DIVING TRUTH!

Seriously,
it is like your Fellow member IAF101 said above:

They are Terrorists - and Terrorists have NO RIGHTS!"

Sounds to me like the Echo of a guy name Adolf...

[edit on 14/12/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Those foreign nationals are being held on american soil and are therefore protected under your laws.

Incorrect !
They are being held in foreign soil and they are not subject to US laws. They are being treated humanely and that is all that they are entitled to.

The presumption of innocence must be applied, why, because it is one of the reasons america is the super power it is today.

Not at all. They are not subject to anylaws that state that prisioners of war located in foreign countries are to be presumed innocent until proven guilty ! They are not civilians to be tried by such presumptions, they are terrorists.

Why is it up to the us to dictate to other countries what they can and cannot do?

It isnt only up to the US, the entire world has said that terrorism is unjustified and all those who resort to terrorism must be dealt with by the Security Council swiftly.
Terrorism is universely unacceptable.

Originally posted by yanchek
Of course they have rights. They are called human rights and they are universal. Unless you think they we're made by spontaneous combustion.

The Geneva convention has an exception that has been stated by several signatory members. They have stated that the Convention would not apply to them if their enemies refuse to follow its conventions. The US is one of those members.
But the Al-Qaeda operatives are kept humanely even though they do not abide by the Conventions. That is a symbol of American restraint and fairness in dealing with these terrorists.
Geneva
Oh, gosh! I think you did it!

I'm proud to anounce............

Please take the histrionics elsewhere !