I agree that the female figure in Poussin's "Shepherds of Arcadia" is Mary Magdelene. She's that and even more. Note the similarity of the relationship of Jesus and Mary Magdalene to the relationship of Osiris and Isis, Adonis and Aphrodite, Tammuz and Ishtar, etc. As this is Arcadia and she's dressed in gold I can't help but read her as Demeter/Ceres, but the dying/resurrection/solar/vegetation cycle persists in that myth as well in the form of Demeter's daughter Persephone (Roman Proserpine).

Completely random Mary Magdalene note:

Did you know there was a first century woman alchemist (at least a legendary one) operating in Southern France called Mary the Jewess? Some believe that she was the refugee Mary Magdalene. Mary the Jewess is credited with the development of a number of scientific instruments, some still in use today, including the double boiler. In French the double boiler is still called a "bain-marie".

In the Mary Magdalene image I think the shape of the bird (dove) is evident. Within the bird shape is a grail shape. Above and to the right, if you look closely, seems to be the shape of a Madonna and Christ Child from an Adoration scene, quite similar in form to Isis and Horus statuary. Note that Mary points right to the dove and the dove points up to the Madonna.



Here seems to be another close configuration of dove and Virgin, this one above Mary's head.



I had more trouble with the St. Peter. After looking closely for a while I tentatively suggest a Mary form.



What is more obvious to me is the large echoing of St. Peter's shape in the rocks along the right hand side.



This stone St. Peter makes sense. Peter means rock or stone. Mary is derived from words for the sea or water. Does the large stone St. Peter represent the large Pauline form of Christianity? Is this the esoteric stream as Mary cracking through from within?
Note that St. Peter's cross is really a sword (he was the only apostle to carry a sword), and also that it is bent or crooked.

Originally posted by Valhall
HOLY TOLEDO! Thank you R! It's not a book...I THINK IT'S A SHIELD!

[edit on 11-5-2005 by Valhall]

No, Val...I believe the child is naked and wrapped in red cloth.

Well, I am no good at playing with these things to enhance them, but I really see right angles on whatever is under the childs arm. whatever it is I do think he's holding something.

Shame there is only so much you can do to get clarity with these images off the internet.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
I think you may have missed the most important part of the Poussin clue..

"A distinguished scholar and artist, Poussin spent most of his career in Italy. He experimented relentlessly with the pictorial theme of the Holy Family over a period of approximately ten years (1646-1655), producing no fewer than six related paintings, all for French patrons. He insisted on informed critical discourse with prospective patrons about the meaning of his pictures, which in the instance of the Holy Family canvases may be understood as complex spiritual essays."

I got a few U2Us about problems with the links to these paintings so I've uploaded them to the ATS server. Notice the hilltop in both Poussin's and Raphael's painting are very similar..

There are six versions of this painting by Poussin, this one seems to be the most detailed and revealing.






The thing that strikes me the most about these paintings by 3 different artists is the similarity of the subjects. Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

The people in the picture are Mary the mother of Jesus, with the baby Jesus, and her Cousin Elizabeth, with her son, the baby St. John the Baptist. The birth of St. John the Baptist was considered a miracle due to the fact that Elizabeth was barren (never had children prior) and past the age of child bearing when she conceived her son. The older man is St. Joseph, father of Jesus, who is believed to have been considerably older than Mary.

Thanks Relentless, now I understand it a little better and I can see the reasoning.

It's been a loooong time since I was in Sunday School, but I didn't realize there was a family relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist... I thought they met late in life?

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

The people in the picture are Mary the mother of Jesus, with the baby Jesus, and her Cousin Elizabeth, with her son, the baby St. John the Baptist. The birth of St. John the Baptist was considered a miracle due to the fact that Elizabeth was barren (never had children prior) and past the age of child bearing when she conceived her son. The older man is St. Joseph, father of Jesus, who is believed to have been considerably older than Mary.

I seem to recall reading something recently that there are some who believe that Jesus had a twin. Could these paintings reflect that?

[edit on 6-11-2005 by loam]

I doubt it Loam. If that is what they were trying to reflect it is doubtful that a character so obviously St. Elizabeth would be there. It is two mothers with their sons as far as I can see.

BTW - is anyone really taking that twin theory seriously? I can't fathom the point of that one.

If I recall correctly, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" deals with a few different permutations of twins. Some have suggested Jesus and John the Baptist, Jesus and Judas and even Jesus and Mary Magdalene. There is of course the connection to pagan divine twins, a major mythological element. Half-divine parentage is standard for Divine Twins. Sometimes there are twin boys, like Castor and Pollux, and sometimes a boy and a girl, like Apollo and Artemis.

The other reason for having two Christs is based on some Gnostic beliefs, according to which Jesus was a mortal human until he was baptized (by John). Then he was joined with the spiritual Jesus, which was the true Son of God. This spiritual Jesus is the force that survives crucifixion and visits Mary Magdalene and the apostles in a form like lightning. There's a lot of seemingly purposeful inter-confusion between Jesus and John and John and Mary Magdalene.

Like the St. Anthony Temptation scenes, the Holy Family is a common theme in Christian iconography. The most famous example is probably the two Da Vinci "Madonna of the Rocks". There are definitely connotations between the Da Vincis and the twin or two Jesus (Jesuses?) phenomenon. We could probably have a lot of fun with those paintings.

I still don't quite see the connection between the Holy Family and the Poussin "Shepherds of Arcadia" other then something compositional with the figures. To me the Poussin is more reminiscent of portraits of the painting donors with their patron saints beside them.

The horse stuff is interesting but I'm not sure what it means. There's a lot of symbolism surrounding horses. A major symbol is the divine twins riding on a white horse. I believe it's a Templar or Masonic symbol that makes its way into logos and advertising sometimes. Jesus is a variation of pagan solar man, and there are plenty of myths about the sun and horses. The Rider-Waite Tarot card 19 is the sun and features a radiant solar child riding a white horse.

I don't quite see a book or a shield in the Munkacsy painting. I had never heard of him before. It should be noted that he was working over two hundred years after Poussin and Teniers. Munkacsy is classified as a realist (you can see why). He was born in Hungary but worked in France. The 1880s is in the grey area between the Pre-Raphaelite movement (the Rosettis, Millais, Burne-Jones, Waterhouse) and the Symbolists (Moreau, Redon, Munch, Klimt, Blake).

Hi, i find this subject on of the best to read about and to learn about, ive read a few books about templars, the crusades, holy blood and the holy grail, and there is a prequel to that book if im correct. I also seen alot of docus about this. I really dont know what it was Sauniere found there, maybe a bloodline, a hoy bloodline, that christ is a man, and if that were to come out, the major beliefs has big problems. I will read into it and bring out a bigger comment!

Originally posted by Pazzzzz

Hi, i find this subject on of the best to read about and to learn about, ive read a few books about templars, the crusades, holy blood and the holy grail, and there is a prequel to that book if im correct.

You're right, Pazzzzz, there was a prequel (of sorts) to The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail...'Le Tresor Maudit' (The Accursed Treasure) by G.de Sede, 1968. He also wrote 'Rennes-le-Chateau' in 1968.

Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln, authors of 'Holy Blood and Holy Grail' went on to write 'The Messianic Legacy', which sums up what is known of the secrets and places what it all might mean into a contemporary context.

Lincoln went on to write 3 more books on the subject...They are; The Holy Place (1991), Key to the Sacred Pattern (1998) and The Templars' Secret Island (co-written with Erling Haagensen in 2000).

Baigent and Leigh, as far as I know, have not pursued the mystery after publishing 'The Messianic Legacy' and that's too bad. If anyone knows of any further publications by them, I'd certainly like to know of it.

Henry Lincoln, though, is still very active in his studies and an absorbing study is revealed in those last three books he has written about Rennes-le-Chateau (as well as Bornholme Island off the Danish coast). His focus is on the geometry associated with the placements of buildings and churches by those secretive Templars during their century.

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