My theory on the secret behind Rennes-le-Chateau

What do you guys make of these? The first is a zoom in on the waterfall (underground stream?) in the St. Mary Magdalen painting:

img.photobucket.com...

and then a zoom in on the waterfall in the St. Peter painting:

img.photobucket.com...

I agree that the female figure in Poussin's "Shepherds of Arcadia" is Mary Magdelene. She's that and even more. Note the similarity of the relationship of Jesus and Mary Magdalene to the relationship of Osiris and Isis, Adonis and Aphrodite, Tammuz and Ishtar, etc. As this is Arcadia and she's dressed in gold I can't help but read her as Demeter/Ceres, but the dying/resurrection/solar/vegetation cycle persists in that myth as well in the form of Demeter's daughter Persephone (Roman Proserpine).

Completely random Mary Magdalene note:

Did you know there was a first century woman alchemist (at least a legendary one) operating in Southern France called Mary the Jewess? Some believe that she was the refugee Mary Magdalene. Mary the Jewess is credited with the development of a number of scientific instruments, some still in use today, including the double boiler. In French the double boiler is still called a "bain-marie".

In the Mary Magdalene image I think the shape of the bird (dove) is evident. Within the bird shape is a grail shape. Above and to the right, if you look closely, seems to be the shape of a Madonna and Christ Child from an Adoration scene, quite similar in form to Isis and Horus statuary. Note that Mary points right to the dove and the dove points up to the Madonna.



Here seems to be another close configuration of dove and Virgin, this one above Mary's head.



I had more trouble with the St. Peter. After looking closely for a while I tentatively suggest a Mary form.



What is more obvious to me is the large echoing of St. Peter's shape in the rocks along the right hand side.



This stone St. Peter makes sense. Peter means rock or stone. Mary is derived from words for the sea or water. Does the large stone St. Peter represent the large Pauline form of Christianity? Is this the esoteric stream as Mary cracking through from within?
Note that St. Peter's cross is really a sword (he was the only apostle to carry a sword), and also that it is bent or crooked.

Originally posted by Valhall
How about this one?

hungart.euroweb.hu...

What's at the dead-center of that painting?

Munkacsy (1881) Christ Before Pilate

I wonder why the child is holding a book......

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by Valhall
How about this one?

hungart.euroweb.hu...

What's at the dead-center of that painting?

Munkacsy (1881) Christ Before Pilate

I wonder why the child is holding a book......

HOLY TOLEDO! Thank you R! It's not a book...I THINK IT'S A SHIELD!





[edit on 11-5-2005 by Valhall]

I don't want to stay from this wonderful discussion on the paintings, but a quick hit on some earlier post.

Amethsyt-

on the idea on one of the current princes becoming King Aurthur II the legend of king aurthur saids he will return doesn't it? Galahad was also seeking the grail. More than likely it can be interpreted many ways and is just a coincidence. It was just like woah, interesting.

About the whole DNA idea and the geometric symbology including the pentagram, I came across this by what I believe is a professor from NYU's Department of Chemistry. A little on Dr. Seeman
(Is it just me or is his name a little ironic )

link
Bringing DNA Nanotechnology to the Market
One of the attractive features of products containing DNA is the potential of producing the molecules by biological means, either by cloning or by means of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Unfortunately, it is not possible to produce branched species in this way, because reproduction of the strands results in heteroduplex molecules rather than branch reproduction. Nevertheless, there is another approach that might work in this case. Figure 9.8 illustrates a pentagonal dodecahedron in a representation known as a Schlegel diagram, where the central pentagon is closest to the viewer, the outer pentagon furthest from the viewer, and the distorted pentagons at intermediate distances back; this is similar to a polar projection of the Earth, with the North Pole at the center and the South Pole at every point on the circumference. Each edge has been overlaid with two turns of DNA, and an exocyclic arm has been added to each pentagon. The exocyclic arms have been connected together to form a long knotted single strand, whose 5' and 3' ends are shown at the top.





Fig. 9.8. Schlegel diagram of a pentagonal dodecahedron.

Also another site that maybe someone else can make heads or tales of it because all I understand is one of the outlined sections titles amd little else. It looks like a bunch of complicated math dealing with genetics and don't know if any of it is even credible.
(also just click on the pentagon line and it will take you right to that section.)

Pentagon as the Basis of All Life

Also a quick after thought. Newton is one of the greatest physics minds ever. Perhaps he didn't know what DNA was but maybe there is some type of math for it that was somehow available? Much like our modern physics, we don't know if certain things exist but our math supports it.

This is also a little late night rambling but if looking at your theory valhall as a riddle, A lie that is said to be truth, and proves to be truth yet is a lie, could be a mathmatical equation. Math is considered the universal language, and mathmatical equations become proven to be true, yet they have no bearing on our philisophical/metaphysical beliefs.

[edit on 5-11-2005 by silentlonewolf]


[edit on 5-11-2005 by silentlonewolf]

Originally posted by Valhall
HOLY TOLEDO! Thank you R! It's not a book...I THINK IT'S A SHIELD!

[edit on 11-5-2005 by Valhall]

No, Val...I believe the child is naked and wrapped in red cloth.

Well, I am no good at playing with these things to enhance them, but I really see right angles on whatever is under the childs arm. whatever it is I do think he's holding something.

Shame there is only so much you can do to get clarity with these images off the internet.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
I think you may have missed the most important part of the Poussin clue..

"A distinguished scholar and artist, Poussin spent most of his career in Italy. He experimented relentlessly with the pictorial theme of the Holy Family over a period of approximately ten years (1646-1655), producing no fewer than six related paintings, all for French patrons. He insisted on informed critical discourse with prospective patrons about the meaning of his pictures, which in the instance of the Holy Family canvases may be understood as complex spiritual essays."

I got a few U2Us about problems with the links to these paintings so I've uploaded them to the ATS server. Notice the hilltop in both Poussin's and Raphael's painting are very similar..

There are six versions of this painting by Poussin, this one seems to be the most detailed and revealing.






The thing that strikes me the most about these paintings by 3 different artists is the similarity of the subjects. Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

The people in the picture are Mary the mother of Jesus, with the baby Jesus, and her Cousin Elizabeth, with her son, the baby St. John the Baptist. The birth of St. John the Baptist was considered a miracle due to the fact that Elizabeth was barren (never had children prior) and past the age of child bearing when she conceived her son. The older man is St. Joseph, father of Jesus, who is believed to have been considerably older than Mary.

Thanks Relentless, now I understand it a little better and I can see the reasoning.

It's been a loooong time since I was in Sunday School, but I didn't realize there was a family relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist... I thought they met late in life?

The Horse of God:

Here's a quick review of the recurring Horse of God theme in all this.

home.tiscali.be...

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Putting aside any accepted definition of who the subjects are supposed to be, I see a young woman with two male children very close in age. An old woman who appears to be the grandmother, and a middle aged man who seems to be an uncle - a little too old to be the husband/father and always depicted as slightly removed from the scene - the male family figure but not the indulgent father. Raphael depicts him as a saint and I don't know much about religious iconism, but who would that make him? St. John? Who couldn't he be?

The people in the picture are Mary the mother of Jesus, with the baby Jesus, and her Cousin Elizabeth, with her son, the baby St. John the Baptist. The birth of St. John the Baptist was considered a miracle due to the fact that Elizabeth was barren (never had children prior) and past the age of child bearing when she conceived her son. The older man is St. Joseph, father of Jesus, who is believed to have been considerably older than Mary.

I seem to recall reading something recently that there are some who believe that Jesus had a twin. Could these paintings reflect that?

[edit on 6-11-2005 by loam]

I doubt it Loam. If that is what they were trying to reflect it is doubtful that a character so obviously St. Elizabeth would be there. It is two mothers with their sons as far as I can see.

BTW - is anyone really taking that twin theory seriously? I can't fathom the point of that one.

If I recall correctly, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" deals with a few different permutations of twins. Some have suggested Jesus and John the Baptist, Jesus and Judas and even Jesus and Mary Magdalene. There is of course the connection to pagan divine twins, a major mythological element. Half-divine parentage is standard for Divine Twins. Sometimes there are twin boys, like Castor and Pollux, and sometimes a boy and a girl, like Apollo and Artemis.

The other reason for having two Christs is based on some Gnostic beliefs, according to which Jesus was a mortal human until he was baptized (by John). Then he was joined with the spiritual Jesus, which was the true Son of God. This spiritual Jesus is the force that survives crucifixion and visits Mary Magdalene and the apostles in a form like lightning. There's a lot of seemingly purposeful inter-confusion between Jesus and John and John and Mary Magdalene.

Like the St. Anthony Temptation scenes, the Holy Family is a common theme in Christian iconography. The most famous example is probably the two Da Vinci "Madonna of the Rocks". There are definitely connotations between the Da Vincis and the twin or two Jesus (Jesuses?) phenomenon. We could probably have a lot of fun with those paintings.

I still don't quite see the connection between the Holy Family and the Poussin "Shepherds of Arcadia" other then something compositional with the figures. To me the Poussin is more reminiscent of portraits of the painting donors with their patron saints beside them.

The horse stuff is interesting but I'm not sure what it means. There's a lot of symbolism surrounding horses. A major symbol is the divine twins riding on a white horse. I believe it's a Templar or Masonic symbol that makes its way into logos and advertising sometimes. Jesus is a variation of pagan solar man, and there are plenty of myths about the sun and horses. The Rider-Waite Tarot card 19 is the sun and features a radiant solar child riding a white horse.

I don't quite see a book or a shield in the Munkacsy painting. I had never heard of him before. It should be noted that he was working over two hundred years after Poussin and Teniers. Munkacsy is classified as a realist (you can see why). He was born in Hungary but worked in France. The 1880s is in the grey area between the Pre-Raphaelite movement (the Rosettis, Millais, Burne-Jones, Waterhouse) and the Symbolists (Moreau, Redon, Munch, Klimt, Blake).

Hi, i find this subject on of the best to read about and to learn about, ive read a few books about templars, the crusades, holy blood and the holy grail, and there is a prequel to that book if im correct. I also seen alot of docus about this. I really dont know what it was Sauniere found there, maybe a bloodline, a hoy bloodline, that christ is a man, and if that were to come out, the major beliefs has big problems. I will read into it and bring out a bigger comment!

Originally posted by Pazzzzz

Hi, i find this subject on of the best to read about and to learn about, ive read a few books about templars, the crusades, holy blood and the holy grail, and there is a prequel to that book if im correct.

You're right, Pazzzzz, there was a prequel (of sorts) to The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail...'Le Tresor Maudit' (The Accursed Treasure) by G.de Sede, 1968. He also wrote 'Rennes-le-Chateau' in 1968.

Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln, authors of 'Holy Blood and Holy Grail' went on to write 'The Messianic Legacy', which sums up what is known of the secrets and places what it all might mean into a contemporary context.

Lincoln went on to write 3 more books on the subject...They are; The Holy Place (1991), Key to the Sacred Pattern (1998) and The Templars' Secret Island (co-written with Erling Haagensen in 2000).

Baigent and Leigh, as far as I know, have not pursued the mystery after publishing 'The Messianic Legacy' and that's too bad. If anyone knows of any further publications by them, I'd certainly like to know of it.

Henry Lincoln, though, is still very active in his studies and an absorbing study is revealed in those last three books he has written about Rennes-le-Chateau (as well as Bornholme Island off the Danish coast). His focus is on the geometry associated with the placements of buildings and churches by those secretive Templars during their century.

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Originally posted by masqua
Baigent and Leigh, as far as I know, have not pursued the mystery after publishing 'The Messianic Legacy' and that's too bad. If anyone knows of any further publications by them, I'd certainly like to know of it.

They also wrote "The Temple and the Lodge" published in 1989, which investigates the links between the Knights Templar and the early Freemasonic lodges. It's a great read.

I checked Amazon. Michael Baigent has also written "The Jesus Papers: Exposing the Greatest Cover-Up in History" (to be released March, 2006), "The Elixir and the Stone: The Tradition of Magic and Alchemy" (2005) with Richard Leigh, "The Inquisition" (2000) with Leigh, "Ancient Traces: Mysteries in Ancient and Early History" (1999), "From the Omens of Babylon: Astrology and Ancient Mesopotamia" (1995), and "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" (1992). Damn, I need to buy some books...

Speaking of Leigh and Baigent, did any of you know about this?:

NZ Author Suing Over Da Vinci Best Seller

Originally posted by CicadaThey also wrote "The Temple and the Lodge" published in 1989, which investigates the links between the Knights Templar and the early Freemasonic lodges. It's a great read.


Speaking of Leigh and Baigent, did any of you know about this?:

NZ Author Suing Over Da Vinci Best Seller

That's good news, Cicada...I always thought Dan Brown ripped them off. I wonder why Lincoln isn't going after them as well...?
In my mind, it was a purposeful ploy to discredit these researchers. Nothing like 'disinfo' and fictionization to throw us all off the track.

Silly of me to forget to mention The Temple and the Lodge, since I've had that book for years. My instinctive reaction was to follow the direction Lincoln went with the Rennes-le-Chateau mystery, certain he was onto something which could produce hard data and new revelations. The peculiar sacred geometric symbols laid upon the landscape, which the Templars used to locate their constructions, is only now being revealed.
Baigent and Leigh went a different tack and put their focus on secret societies, hoping to pry open some of those doors.

I am going to have to buy some more books on this subject as well, and not be too narrow in my study.

BTW...those three books by Lincoln are really fascinating in their scope. I highly recommend Key to the Sacred Pattern as a great alternate to Baigent and Leigh. This book is written in diary form and spells out exactly the evolution of the mystery and how the researchers got to where they are today. It was written after The Holy Place, which is a difficult read, as is The Templars Secret Island
.

As the mysteries surrounding Rennes-le Chateau became known world-wide, an explosion of books on the topic began to circulate, speaking of Sauniere's sudden wealth and hidden treasures, the idea of European nobility, descending through the Merovingians, back to the bloodline of King David and including Christ, the Holy Grail (possibly being the bloodline itself) and a peculiar painting by Nicolas Poissin.

These are all worthy pursuits, no doubt...but there is another factor which is being delved into...the pentagonal mapping which surrounds the mystery both in Poisson's painting and the geography of the landscape. It is this particular clue which has caught my attention.

Henry Lincoln lays out the demonstrable facts which we can verify by ruler, pen and map (as well as a good copy of The Shepherds of Arcadia). Looking at the information from his book, Key to the Sacred Pattern, he states in chapter 13, he lists those verifyable facts as being;

1. The existence of the 'parchments', published by de Sede in The Accused Treasure
2. A pentagonal design concealed within the parchments.
3. Nicolas Poisson's painting depicts a landscape near Rennes-le-Chateau
4. The same painting reveals a pentagonal geometric design.
5. The landscape surrounding Rennes-le-Chateau reveals a natural pentagon in the configuration of the surrounding mountains.
6.The patron saint of Rennes-le-Chateau is St Mary Magdelene, whose celestial representation was Venus, a planet which, through 8 year cycles, describes a pentangonal track.

The treasure which Sauniere supposedly found could have been from a number of sources...none of which are certain. The bloodline to King David is interesting, but depends on the Merovingian declaration that they were related by blood (but is not provable).

The only thing which still stands to reveal interesting information about the Templars and their accomplishments is the unusual mapping, using symbols, such as accurate line measurements, from point A to B using the English Mile as a standard, incorporating those lines into triangles, rectangles, pentagons, hexagons and seven pointed stars.

In his book, The Holy Place, Lincoln studies Rennes-le-Chateau with an eye firmly focussed on these sacred symbols which reveal themselves through Templar construction, mostly of churches. The accuracy of the placements are uncanny, to say the very least, being as close as .02% over many miles. Upon reading this book, I thought he was onto something amazing, since cartographers in those days of the 10th and 11th centuries really could not pull off such detail.

Soon after I bought the book Key to the Sacred Patterns, which I have already mentioned, and through reading it, was further impressed that Lincoln was indeed the person who was doing the most scientific research into the mystery. Here is the closing three paragraphs from that book;

from Key to the Sacred Pattern by Henry Lincoln

The great stone monuments of Stonehenge and Carnac are there for all to see. But no one can tell us why they were built, nor whence come the skills which built them. Rennes-le-Chateau has shown us their hidden, but precise, counterpart in a clear and recognisable mastery of mathematics and geometry.

At last we have in our hands the Key which will unlock a treasure house of lost knowledge.

At Rennes-le-Chateau, the ancient surveyors, measures and mappers have left us the empirical reality of their amazing labours. They have left us the evidence of their skills and knowledge which, through many long centuries has been lost or forgotten. They speak to us across the years in the language of number and measure. No written words survive, yet their call to us is clear and confident and proud. It is time for us to listen- and to learn.

When the great cathederals were being built across the European landscape, many were placed upon ancient pagan holy sites in an effort to transplant the Church of Rome in their stead. What they actually did, without their knowing, was mark many of those pagan places onto the landscape which are identifiable today. What Lincoln has found was that these ancient sites were positioned geographically through the use sacred symbols. Many megalithic structures, of indeterminate age, are based on the same geometry as the Templars seemed to use. This is a connection to a time in the historical record where language and the written word fails us in relation to Europe. We have only the strange figures of druids and the Stone Ware People who are little known of. Could this be the connection to their knowledge? What could these discoveries tell us and will they reveal locations for archeological excavations?

In his latest book, Henry Lincoln teams up with Erling Haagensen (see interview) in a study of Bornholm Island and its Templar churches. The resulting book, The Templars Secret Island delves further into the relationship with megalithic structures, Templar churches, unbelievable accuracy in measurements and a great insight into the events of the 12th century. Fascinating stuff.

Also, I'd like to include this bicicle tour website which has some great pics of the island as well as including a map.

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