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My theory on the secret behind Rennes-le-Chateau

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posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 05:34 AM
Well, I guess you could take that even further now that I think about. We now have the bizarro birds, and snake along with the ram signifying the "son of god" decapitated, in a picture that has the cross surplanted by the underground stream.

That's a mind-bender.

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 06:55 AM

Originally posted by QuietSoul

(I bought a revised version of Lincoln's book, with a bunch of new info added), but the Tomb found in the Les Bergers d'Arcadie was found near the chateau of Arques.

I'm going with the assumption the the book you're talking about is Henry Lincoln's The Holy Place. I have the Corgi 2nd edition as well and I find it intriguing in it's study of the grand geometric design of Rennes-le-Chateau.

If I'm wrong, I would love to know so I can purchase this other volume of Lincolns work. I'm of the opinion his studies are of even more importance than The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail in that it furthers that work and focussed on the very subject which expands the mystery beyond the immediate confines of the village and surrounding mounts and peaks to Bornholm, Paris and other points along the sight lines he has indicated.

Hopefully, more Templar constructions will be discovered upon the geometry indicated, which seems like a treasure map.

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 07:22 AM
Blue Apples!

Complete decoded message from the parchments:


A new Nicholas Poussin painting to look at entitled Autumn. The Grapes from the Promised Land.

With an apple tree and blue grapes the size of apples!


Look at what is at 12 o'clock in this painting. That's that mountain with the structure at the foot that they talk about being like the "throne of God" or something like that. MEMORY CHARGE IN ORDER!!!

*runs away to find what I'm trying to remember*

HEY! And don't miss the naked guy by the underground stream over to the right!

[edit on 10-31-2005 by Valhall]

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:31 AM
Found this, it's called the "blue apples phenomenon"

Apparently the sun shines through a stained glass window and projects "apples" on the floor. It would appear that at noon the apples lie on the alter. Very strange!

One more thing I found on that site, but it's just a theory...

[Rennes] was the refuge of Prince Sigebert 4 in 681,he was King Dagobert 2(St Dagobert).It was also the house of their descendants ,counts of Rhédae and dukes of Razès…

To king Dagobert 2 and Sion this treasure belongs and it is death

Interesting connection to Dagobert II.......

[edit on 31-10-2005 by MrMysterious]

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 12:02 PM
You need to find out what is so important about the blue grapes. Remember that grapes can be, , blue, golden, green, purple-red and white.

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:20 PM
OK, I'm somewhat shocked! In an effort to find a better resolution photo of the Taniers' paintings in question, I have discovered the he indeed made no less than 20 versions of them! I would call that nothing short of an obsession!!!

I am certain that if I searched longer, I would find more.

Here is what I have so far (I don't intend to keep looking.) Each is to some degree quite instructive. All are very similar and help to explain much...

In the aggregate, it becomes very easy to identify all of the unusual items. For example, the white ball on the bottle

discussed earlier is actually another vessel emptying water into the bottle.

Many familiar objects reappear in each version:

The Flute played from the demon's nostril.

The flying gar/fish.

Dueling demons on flying birds.



Demon holding broom.


Decapitated ram


It should also be noted that many of these "individuals" demon and human alike reappear in Taniers other works.... The demon/guy in the red hat is in many other paintings of different subject matter.

EDIT: BTW, notice the "T" that appears on his shoulder in most of these versions....

[edit on 31-10-2005 by loam]

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:44 PM
I've been thinking about the white vessel pouring water into the bottle....

Is that a crude hourglass? An hourglass appears in many of the other versions...

Just a thought.

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 10:51 PM
I found this one maybe usefull

large image

also a lot of witchcraft pictures from same artist
can be found here

posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 10:56 PM

Originally posted by MankoW
I found this one maybe usefull

large image

also a lot of witchcraft pictures from same artist
can be found here

Got that one....It's number 10.

I'm sure, however, there are probably more.

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 04:27 AM
The "T" on the shoulder.

I got something on that I read this weekend that may be a clue. I will try to find it after work if no one comes up with it sooner.

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 05:19 AM
Good finds loam! We had found one of those (a second temptation), and then last night Mirthful Me found this one by Teniers entitled The Rich Man being Led to Hell, which has a lot of the same elements:

The Rich Man being Led to Hell

Mirthful Me is convinced Teniers was a religious satyrist who spoke his opinion of what was happening in and or with the church through his paintings.

I think this particular one you found is striking among all of them. The Temptation of St. Anthony in this particular one comes via the lady bringing him a chalice of water taken from the Underground Stream to the left.

Also, I think you are dead on about the flask. I cannot find a single instance that it appears along with an hourglass.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Valhall]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 05:38 AM
In all those pictures above, The old man is being tempted (temptation) by the spirits of the Earth. Or demons as they were called in those days, today i hope people know better. But he holds fast to the book of words. He holds fast to his beliefs. Even when tempted by a woman (in one of the black and whites) with her skirt up showing a bit of leg, he looks scared but holds the book of words tightly. In most he turns away from the temptation. He is old and frail but those around him are happy and bright and not old and having fun and flying around and being themselves. He seems to get older and frailer but still holds that book of words.

I would like to know the exact order of the series "temptation" . In the pics you can see the old dude age. Sometimes he has hair on top some pics he doesn't. some hes younger and some older.

Is the top one the first in the series of the story loam? If so this might be where someone lets him out of that cage or house. You have the man sitting down with him telling him something, possibly giving him the word. Its not to the next when you see him try to read the word you see him get tempted and all pandoras box appears.

For example the second last black and whate should be swapped with the last one i think......even when tempted by the light..... the second last one he has read more books than the last, he is older and more tired looking.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Mayet]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 05:39 AM
Poussin, too, repainted the same scenes over and over. It is assumed for different patrons who may have viewed the first and requested their own. He ended up painting two full sets of the sacraments.

There are two recurring scenes that he painted many, many times with variations each time (as would be assumed because it would be down right boring to try to paint the exact same painting over and over). These two scenes are the Holy Family, being the one he seems to have painted the most, always showing Joseph, Elizabeth with baby John, and Mary with baby Jesus; the second is the Baptism of Christ.

One particular pair of paintings of the Baptism of Christ by Poussin is interesting. Unlike the other renderings of this scene, which always had considerable differences in perspective, surrounding characters, etc. these two paintings are almost identical. Almost, that is.

In this first one we see the crowd of witnesses pointing toward a common area of the sky. But there is nothing there. In addition, we see the a pile of clothes in the forefront at the bottom right hand side of the painting, and a man standing by them. The young man at the back of the crowd is looking backward to him and pointing at the same area of the sky the rest are. The river flows past Christ and across the front of the painting.

This second one is the same scene, but with a vastly different painting style. The major differences are: now the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove is seen in the sky where the crowd points. But the pile of clothes are gone, and the man who stood back away from the crowd to the right of the first painting is now gone. But curiously, the young man in the rear of the crowd is still turned toward the missing man. The man being removed from the painting reveals a nude person at the bank of the river in the background. The stream no longers flows across the front of the painting.

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 05:57 AM

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 06:12 AM
I have been researching the part of the coded message that reads PEACE 681. Here is what I found. It is extremely curious that it ties to the Arian teachings that could be connected with Teniers' paintings containing St. Anthony - who you could view as basically being drawn from his isolation to come out against the Arian teachings.

The Arian teachings were quashed by the Roman church in 300-400 a.d. Now since the issue that was being contested by the Arian's was the Roman church's statement

Christ is equivalent to God

and the Roman church won, what followed was about 300 years of people pointing out this causes a few logistical problems. For instance, if you just take the Garden of Gethsemane and the Crucifixion, you have two instances in which God is talking to Himself in a rather schizophrenic kind of way. You could rephrase the prayer in Gethsemane as

"If it's my will I'll let this cup pass me."

And the cry on the cross by the Christ as

"Me Me why have I forsaken me?"

Also, there were a few people who had a great ainxt over the fact this resulted in the Roman church calling Mary "the mother of God". It didn't set well with some.

So there came various "factions", almost always out of Alexandria where the battle against the Constantine changes to the church doctrine would erupt, that would try to point out the problems with the equivalency doctrine. A set of groups with the names Eutychianism (apparently named after Eutyches), Monophysites, and Monothelites taught against one of the doctrines the Roman church applied in order to get around the problems that arose by the equivalency doctrine.

That being the will of Christ.

If you just take the Garden of Gethsemane prayer and Christ's cry on the cross you see how once the Roman church "won" on the equivalency issue, they had a sticky wicket. The prayer and the cry would not have taken place if Christ was the equivalent of God. In order to get around this, the Roman church came up with the two-willed Christ. Christ had a man-will and he had God's will. So when he wanted to eat, be scared, or sad his man-will would kick in - but only because his God will allowed it to.

Eutychianism, Monophysites, and Monothelites basically all said "B.S.". You are making two Christs. There can only be one will. Now, the importance to the Roman church of this particular battle can't be diminished. They only had two options here: rescind the equivalency doctrine, or win this one. Because if Christ could only have one will, it would have to be God's will, because the only other choice is 100% man's will - and that is in opposition to Christ being equivalent to God.

And, of course, the Roman church did win. They held the Third Council of Constantinople and in 681 they published their Exposition of Faith on the matter. They opened this exposition by quoting the words of Christ:

I am the light of the world; anyone who follows me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life, and again, My peace I leave to you, my peace I give you.

The entire opening paragraph reads as follows:

The only Son and Word of God the Father, who became a man like us in all things but sin, Christ our true God, proclaimed clearly in the words of the gospel; I am the light of the world; anyone who follows me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life, and again, My peace I leave to you, my peace I give you. Our most mild emperor, champion of right belief and adversary of wrong belief, guided in godly wisdom by this teaching of peace spoken by God, has brought together this holy and universal assembly of ours and set at one the whole judgment of the church.

Now, the curious connection between what happened in 681 and certain weird symbolism that could be employed by depicting St. Anthony, is that the Church now views Eutychianism, Monophysitism, and Monothelitism all as forms of Arianism.

Another curious thing found while researching this came when I found that the Third Council of Constantinople issued this exposition of faith on the will(s) of Christ under Pope Leo II. nerdling had noticed that the snake in the particular rendition of the Temptation of St. Anthony that we were looking at seemed to be drawn in the astrological sign of Leo. nerdling has a very good link that can be compared and I'll have to rely on him to share that.

But another thing that Mirthful Me pointed out is that in the 1600's while Tenier and Poussin were painting away, the Reformation was taking place - under Pope Leo X. That's a wild bit of coincidence, isn't it?

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Valhall]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 06:45 AM

Another curious thing found while researching this came when I found that the Third Council of Constantinople issued this exposition of faith on the will(s) of Christ under Pope Leo II. nerdling had noticed that the snake in the particular rendition of the Temptation of St. Anthony that we were looking at seemed to be drawn in the astrological sign of Leo. nerdling has a very good link that can be compared and I'll have to rely on him to share that.

The fire lion serpent is quite popular in esoteric writings down through time.

whoa... hey this is weird...

I just thought of something..

Aleister Crowley quite visibly portrays this concept in his major arkana card of 14, Art....

Aleister Crowley was a bit different with his Thoth tarot deck. He renamed a few of the major arcana cards to different names than previously known in esoteric circles. I have worked on one of these before which is another story but this fascinating connection I just made then is quite bizzare. Crowley called this card below Art

It is number 14 of the major arcana and one of the names that changed in his deck. Funny enough we are talking art and leo(fire) serpents, which crowley card has both. the original name of the card that Crowley changed number 14 Art is...temperance.........

I am not sure but my mind has it fuzzy that he may have gone to Rennes, Crowley I think but i think it wasn't what he was looking for so he left. Have to read up on that again to be sure.

Lyrics Of A Song About It
Lion serpent sun
Point the holy wand
Thou sixfold star
Force and fire

Lion serpent sun
Thou exalted one
Lion serpent sun
Point the holy wand

Lion serpent sun
Sword of flame
Lion serpent sun
Chant the holy name

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Mayet]

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Mayet]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 07:21 AM
In doing so, there is perhaps something conspicuous when we look at Crowley's "Art" trump, whilst we have these fabled "blue apples" on our minds, and that is the seven nuclei of the Nitrogen atom which appear on this card, flattened within the nucleus and symbolizing the atomic number rather than the atomic weight, identical to the manner in which many ancient diagrams of atoms do, and with the azure coloring to assure us that the etymology of "azure" and "azote" that tends to associate them is indeed valid, even though the proposition has led some authors to prematurely criticize it for having distorted the frame of reference to suggest it means the ancients "worshipped Nitrogen". The worship of Nitrogen may be ludicrous, but rather than insisting on worship, we may wisely insist on the Nitrogen, and momentarily set aside the provisional idea of worship; the ancients recognized and seemingly anthromorphicized this element, and others.

Also I just realised something as I went to look on google for association "crowley rennes" and I came up with the above page. Then something further hit me. I have posted here before my deciphering and decoding of Crowleys major arcana. I have found the number system behind it. What didn't strike me until I read the above quote though, is that this card everyone seems to be associating with Rennes, and not just me from the things I just found on google, I saw first association in the fire lion serpent val wrote from nerdling and said about the connection of the words Art = Temperance...which happens to be one of the cards I changed in the historical sequence of attributes, used by most accultists in history, including the golden dawn and others, was the 14 Art or Temperance card, previously was attributed to Sagitarius but when I did the system I later called the "mayet system" I moved the 14 Art card to be attributed now to Leo, partially because of the fire lion serpent.

That is why I am familiar with the fire lion serpent legends. The eagle which represents scorpio, aka serpent, scorpion, eagle (the three stages of scorpio,,, or solid, liquid, gas, the trinity, life - death - regeneration,, is usually white to signify the water element in which it sits. The lion is usally red,fire, the two had swapped in the card, so in one of the movements after the first one I did with the card called "adjustment" (another co-incidence),

heres the link to my decoding. If Crowley did meet the guy at Rennes, then anythings possible.

Sorry if you think I am going off track but it just seems significant in the whole scheme of things. I wasn't the only one in history to spot a connection between Rennes and Crowleys 14 art card .......I always wondered why he called it art, I think I may have an idea now.

anyhows I will butt out now and get back to working on it all here. Sorry if I sound nuts but there is just so much to this story that encompasses so much over time and has bearing on us today just as it did yesterday.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Mayet]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 10:42 AM
link more...

BTW, Valhall, do you intend to discuss the portrait of the Investiture of Pope Celestine V? This would appear to be the third painting Berenger Sauniere purportedly went to view when he travelled to the Louvre in Paris.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by loam]

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 10:49 AM
I read a lot this morning about the Merovingian line and I’ve got tons of questions but I’ll boil it down to a few. But first I have to review so that I can keep it straight in my head.

Here are a few observations:

The Arcadia Languedoc connection

The Franks, and therefore the Merovingians, claimed to be descendants of the Visigoths.
The Visigoths are a branch of the Goths and believed to have been from Scandinavia.
The Visigoths first arrived on the scene when they invaded the Balkans Peninsula in the
late 3rd century. The Visigoths were Arian Catholics.

Ancient Arcadia was located in the Balkans, the middle of the Peloponnesus to be more precise.

One thing worth noting: in 681 The Bulgars win the war with the Byzantine Empire; the latter signs a peace treaty, which is considered as the birth-date of Bulgaria.
“Peace 681”

Now oddly enough one crime both the Templars and the Cathars were accused of was homosexuality, specifically buggary.

It was as a result of this particular belief that the term "buggery" was coined (after the 'Bulgars', or 'Bougres', or followers of the Bogomils) since if they were to give in to sexual temptation, this would at least ensure that no children resulted.

Interestingly enough the Bogomils were Bulgars aka Bulgarians! Odd connection considering the Visigoth history of the Languedoc area!

The Salian Franks’, a branch of the Franks, first king is considered to be Pharamond, but he could be a fictional character. So lets say the first real king of the Franks is Clodio. Clodio’s wife is pregnant when she’s raped by a Quinotaur. Clodio’s wife gives birth to Merowig who the Merovingian line is named for.

The idea of having sex or been raped by a sea creature is not that uncommon in classic mythology, especially in Greek Mythology. If we can trace the Franks to the Visigoths to the Balkans Peninsula it’s not too far of a leap to assume that they heard some of the stories of Poseidon and his conquest of human women and that it may have traveled with them. See for more into on Poseidon.

So would I be wrong to assume that the possible origins of the Merowig is just another adaptation of classical mythology in an attempt to show divine right? If it specifically said a fish or fish like creature I personally would be inclined to agree with those who think it’s a hidden reference to Jesus, the whole fish thing.

And who could forget Et in Arcadia Ego?

Knight Templar and Sigebert 4 and the Dualistic Nature of Jesus

The grave marker of princes Sigebert 4, Sigebert 5 and Bera 3 had an image of two knights on a horse.

One of many symbols of the Templars was two knights on one horse

The Knights Templar was founded in 1118ad and the earliest know time this symbol was used by the order was 1158ad. Sigberts tomb was created in 771ad, 386 years earlier!

According to the Templars the two knights on one horse represent the dualistic nature of the warrior/monk as well as the vow of poverty. But I think it could represent the Dualist nature of Christ as believed by the Arian Catholics as well as the Cathars.

Now it’s also speculation that Sigebert IV (676-758) was also known as the 'Plant-Ard' - from whom Mr Plantard took his name!-: Sigebert V (695-768), Bera III (715-771), Guillemon, Bera IV (755-836), Bera V (794-860), Hildéric I and finally Sigebert VI known as 'Ursus'. From this lineage came the Blanchefort family who gave three centuries later a Templar Grand Master, Bertrand de Blanchefort.

From Wikipedia

Bertrand de Blanchefort or Blanquefort (c. 1109-January 2, 1169) was the sixth Grand Master of the Knights Templar, from 1156 until his death.

Now he was the 6th Grand Master, check this out…

Peace 681: 6+8+1= 15 1+5=6

Rennes Church was completed in 771ad: 7+7+1=15 1+5=6

Death of Marie de Saint-Clair, grand master of the Priory of Sion and descendant of Henry de Saint-Clair, Baron of Rosslyn in Scotland, who accompanied Godroi de Bouillon on the First Crusade - 1266 1+2+6+6=15 1=5=6

Jacques de Molay claims to have joined the Templars in 1266 1+2+6+6=15 1=5=6
See two different theroies on when he joined 1266 or 1265

The Roman numerals LIXLIXL on one of the graves at Rennes:
L IX L IX L = 50, 9, 50, 9, 50 = 168 (if you add a 1 to the end of this number you get the Year of Marie's death as inscribed on the headstone). Also if you rearrange the numerals you get 681, a number which revealed itself in the large manuscript, PAX 681 and 6+8+1=15 1+5=6


Finally the numbers can be written as LIX LI XL which translate into 59, 51, 40 which when added together yield a total of 150. 1+5+0=6

Lastly there are 6 dots in between the legs of the creature at the base of the headstone of Marie 6 dots in between the legs of the creature at the base of the headstone.

Is this just a co-incidence or am I just looking to close to see the whole picture?

Interestingly; Marie Hautpoul de Blanchefort a descendant of Bertrand de Blanchefort is the women rumored to have given Antoine Bigou the scrolls that Saunière found at Rennes!


In the Heraldry foundations of France, the lineage maps from Bertrand de Blanchefort, 4th Templar and Sion Order Grand Master, go directly back to Meruvingian King Dagobert II, who was assassinated on December 23rd

This makes my head hurt!

If Mary and Jesus came to the South of France, how do the Merovingians link to them if they came from Northern France?

Are we sure that PAX681 is to mean Peace? PAX could also mean:
1. A small flat tablet adorned with a sacred image that worshippers kiss when offered the kiss of peace. Are we missing something in Saunière’s restoration of Rennes?
2. The kiss of peace.

Anyone have a thought as to what God’s Horse is all about?

What's with all the 6s?

And finally If Marie Hautpoul de Blanchefort gave these documents to her priest and not to another family memeber, could we surmise that she was the last of the line directly related to Dagobert II?

That's all I can think of for now.....

posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 07:08 PM
Blue Apples on January 17th:

The phrase 'Blue Apples' - 'Pommes Bleues' - comes from one of the coded parchments allegedly discovered in 1886 or 1887 by Abbe Sauniere inside the church at Rennes-le-Chateau. These 'blue apples' are supposedly related to a curious optical phenomenon that is said to occur at midday on January 17 when the sun shines through a stained-glass window (Jesus Raising Lazarus from the Dead) in the church. On this day, orbs of bluish light appear on the church furnishings before stopping (or fading) on the altar with its bas-relief of Mary Magdalene kneeling in prayer with a skull at her knees.

Sauniere's Died on January 17th

Sauniere's "heart attack" in 1917 came on the suspicious date of January 17th (St. Anthony's Day)

January 17th is St. Anthony's Feast Day! Oh geez, guess what else it was?

When Anthony knew when he was going to die, he visited his monks, then retired with his two assistants. He gave strict instructions that he be buried in secret. One of his sheepskins was to be sent to Athanasius as a sign of unity with the esteemed prelate. The other was given to bishop Serapion. He then bid his assistants goodbye, laid down and gave up his ghost. This was on the 17th of January, 356. The saint was 105 years old.

There are more twists and turns in this thing than I know what to do with!

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