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Why it's so hard to belive in UFO's

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posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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(not in order of importance)

1. Drake and Sagan's equations for the probability of space-faring civilizations in the cosmos is shown to off by a factor of several million, by the Hubble telescope. This means to me that there "probably aren't" advanced civilizations contacting us. [see my blog on the topic]

2. Investigation of UFO's as a physical presence haven't gone anywhere in almost 60 years of research. [see my blog on the topic]. With any other investigation, like the 'outing' of agent plame for example, you begin to gather some momentum, and cross some possibilities off the list. This hasn't happened with UFO's. The orginal claims have never been substantiated (or refuted).

3. Many of the contactees have a highly emotional and subjective experience to report. I believe they believe. Just like little mexican grandmas believe they've seen the face of the Blessed Virgin in a tortilla. But their lack of objectivity damages the applicability of what they claim, for the rest of us.

4. Contradictary claims are made, and you have to choose one and exclude others (sounds more like religion, than evidence.) "They" are from the great white brotherhood. No, they're from venus. No, from Zeta Reticuli. No, they're demons. No, they're advanced consciousnesses. see?

5. These aliens, with their hyperdrives and 5th dimensional intelligence, have to use a NEEDLE to get DNA. Talk about being "stuck in the 50's!"

6. These aliens never stop at the white house. Or the mall. Or nasa. They just hang out in the woods, or some dimly lit trailer park. Sound like a buncha crackers to me. Seriously. No embassies. No treaties. No scientific dialogue. Not even an empire, or a chance to join the galactic federation.

7.




posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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Thank you Phood. You guys need to read the book Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs who I might add is a highly notable source. Open your mind for a second, just a second, (its harder thatn it sounds) and think about all the evidence that is NOT leaked to the public. All that concrete evidence the government hides. You can't deny that its there because you dont know. We have some idea of the happenings in A51 based on eyewitness accounts of ex-members that used to work there. The gov can't sensor these people because it would only strengthen their claims. The gov only leaks out certain information to allow people to fill the rest of the story with their imaginations (which is soley based on media otherwise it wouldnt be so pessimstic) so that people can easily disregard it and live their happy pathetic lives ignorant of the truth. Honestly, don't patronize me Frosty because you and I are at the same level of ignorance when it comes to these matters. As for other planets, there ARE other planets with water and sunlight which is all that is necessary for life. That doesnt mean that life is complex but there very well could be life. As for ideas, there is no such thing as "making something up" every idea stems from one or more old ideas unless you discredit the philosophy of Des Cartes, which wouldnt surprise me. Think before you reason my friends.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Akuzar - What is evidence?
Some people (maybe yourself) have lower thresholds of objectivety. You are more willing to accept anectdotal, theoretical, or circumstantial information as the truth. Now don't get upset. I didn't call you a moron as you did others. I am simply saying you place a high relevance on information others may be more speculative about.

Consider all the fakes, phoneys, and hoaxes perpetrated by zealous believers and people are forced to become more assertive in their analysis process. It's my belief that these kinds of nut jobs have hurt their entire cause. For me, pictures, videos, and testimonials do not qualify as proof anymore. Consider those just some of the reasons why there is an increasing demand for physical proof or hard evidence. The bottom line is that after 60 years we still don't have key physical proof.


[edit on 26-10-2005 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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“If the aliens are so advanced then why do they (fill in the blank)” is a fallacy. We don’t know that they are “advanced”, building an argument upon that supposition is pointless. There is the off chance that aliens my have more advanced space technologies than we do, that does not mean that they would have more advanced medical technologies than we do (or any other type of technology). Nor does it mean that they would have a more advanced culture, a deeper appreciation of art, or a better understanding of philosophy. If flying saucers are real, it means that “they” can make flying saucers (and we can’t,,,yet)

The “What would I do” argument is cute, but doesn’t mean anything. If you honestly believe you know how an alien would think or what an alien would do then you scare me. Just because you may think that abducting farmer Brown and doing weird things to his body is silly doesn’t mean that is what an alien would think. They are Alien.

The argument “Aliens would not travel all this huge vast enormous distance just to make crop circles, mutilate cows and abduct farmer Brown” is a fallacy. a) See the “What would I do” statement above. b) We don’t know where these things come from (if they even exist) For all we know these things are made in Taiwan, or Cleveland. If we know for a fact that they have traveled some vast distance, then we have taken at least some of the “unidentified” out of UFO.

The query “So why don’t they talk to us?” is a good question, however lack of communication only proves that there is a lack of communication.

“So why don’t they land on the White House lawn, Times Square, the Super Bowel?” More good questions, see all of the above.

Most of the above lines of reasoning are incredibly ethnocentric. They assume that humans are top dog, and that any alien species that came along would recognize just how cool we are and would want to play with us.

Assume nothing. If aliens are probing farmer Brown then aliens are probing farmer Brown. Accuse farmer Brown of being an idiot, psychoanalyze the aliens until you are blue in the face, play Tetris until your brain bleeds, none of that matters. If aliens are probing farmer Brown then aliens are probing farmer Brown. Check the little box on the data sheet, call in the next farmer…

Proof: To date there has been no bit of “proof” regarding UFOs that everybody can agree on. That doesn’t mean there aren’t any nor does it mean should you stop looking. To date there has been no bit of “proof” that proves we are not plugged into some type of Matrix or simply the dream of a demented butterfly. That hasn’t stopped me from having a good time.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by torbjon
“If the aliens are so advanced then why do they (fill in the blank)” is a fallacy. We don’t know that they are “advanced”, building an argument upon that supposition is pointless.


Not so fast.

My point was this: Understanding and manipulating DNA/genetic material would mean that you know what it is that you are sampling. If you WERE doing DNA, then you'd know that all it takes is a cotton swab inside the mouth--not invasive #20 needles up the subject's nose. Or a little spittle in a petri dish, or a few hairs with the folicle intact.

Now, you could make an argument that the aliens really AREN'T interested in DNA---that they are just trying to freak out their victims, and "fear them up," abu ghraib style, before the real interrogation. That might be a plausible answer.

(one that I've never heard an abductee offer, though.)

We can, if we assume THEY are intelligent, search for their motivations, seeing as how that is one definition of intelligence, to be motivated to do stuff.

If you tell me that they are coming down to make a crop circle, that's one thing. But if you tell me that they are going to make a crop circle using a 6 inch-long wet noodle, well that just doesn't make sense.

I think the fact that we CAN'T ascribe any kind of motive or logic to their behavior makes me think there isn't any.

In other words, they belong in the category of ghosts and spectres an leprachauns, rather than in the category with the Spanish Conquistadors, or the Settlers at Plymouth Rock, or the first Polynesian seafarers. They behave a lot more like non-material supernatural entities, rather than the vanguard of another civilization.

Saying that we "have no way of knowing or guessing" is tantamount to asking the rest of us to suspend our logical disbelief. "Believe me cause it moves me." And that is a religious claim, rather than a scientific or historic one.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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dr_strangecraft - Very good points.

I really agree with dr_strangecraft on one specific point I've mentioned before. The UFO/Alien community is very fractured. There are various factions that really conflict or fly contrary with each others message or purpose. You probably could not get these groups to join together to agree and reach a one common consensus. I'll add this fracture or faction following is very much like a religion or cult mentalities. With little or no modern proof they are likely to see UFO/Alien aperitions that few others accept as proof.

I'll add that UFO sighting are now happening at much greater distances. Little orbs of light high in the sky like Prohet Yahweh (who is a hoaxer).
I'll also need to note the UFO sightings in NASA space footage. The more I look at the this the more contradictory it is becoming. A government agency that is run by a hard line government dead set on covering up all aspects of UFO/Alien. Just one of many inconsistancies brought forth by those that want to believe.


[edit on 26-10-2005 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 07:35 PM
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But NASA is not supposed to be a Government Run facility. It started out as a government funded civilian agency. And then the military started digging their claws into it by the 70's.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Akuzar
Thank you Phood. You guys need to read the book Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs who I might add is a highly notable source. Open your mind for a second, just a second, (its harder thatn it sounds) and think about all the evidence that is NOT leaked to the public. All that concrete evidence the government hides. You can't deny that its there because you dont know. We have some idea of the happenings in A51 based on eyewitness accounts of ex-members that used to work there. The gov can't sensor these people because it would only strengthen their claims. The gov only leaks out certain information to allow people to fill the rest of the story with their imaginations (which is soley based on media otherwise it wouldnt be so pessimstic) so that people can easily disregard it and live their happy pathetic lives ignorant of the truth. Honestly, don't patronize me Frosty because you and I are at the same level of ignorance when it comes to these matters. As for other planets, there ARE other planets with water and sunlight which is all that is necessary for life. That doesnt mean that life is complex but there very well could be life. As for ideas, there is no such thing as "making something up" every idea stems from one or more old ideas unless you discredit the philosophy of Des Cartes, which wouldnt surprise me. Think before you reason my friends.


Think about all the evidence that is available to the public. There is none. Why would there be secret evidence? Answer: because there is none to begin with so people make up stories like 'the government is hiding information'. THe easiest thing to do is to blame the government for witholding because of the already existing supsicions of the public towards government. It is easy to just say its secret, unclassified or hidden while you have no evidence.

How do you even know that there are such things as concrete gov evidence? WHo are you the? The Vissili Mitrokhin of government knowledge on alien UFOs?

Who ever said that all life requires water? Have you not heard of anerobic life forms?

I don't give a (explicit) about Des Cartes because alien UFOs are made up! From comic books and tv shows and the human mind!


[edit on 26-10-2005 by Frosty]



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Frosty
Think about all the evidence that is available to the public. There is none. Why would there be secret evidence? Answer: because there is none to begin with so people make up stories like 'the government is hiding information'. THe easiest thing to do is to blame the government for witholding because of the already existing supsicions of the public towards government. It is easy to just say its secret, unclassified or hidden while you have no evidence.



How can you say there is no evidence ?

The Air Force's Blue book investigated UFOs for over 20 years leaving 21% of the cases investigated listed as "Unknowns" some of these included trace and physical evidence.

The Condon Committee left 30% of the cases that were investigated listed as "Unknowns".

I posted a link on this thread that is full of evidence that shows an Unknown Areal Phenomena exists and can be measured.

Ignoring the evidence does not mean that there is no evidence.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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dr_strangecraft:

(“Understanding and manipulating DNA/genetic material would mean that you know what it is that you are sampling”)

Nobody said “they” (if there is a “they”) understand what they are doing, or would do things in a way that we would understand.

(“We can, if we assume THEY are intelligent, search for their motivations, seeing as how that is one definition of intelligence, to be motivated to do stuff.”)

Assume nothing.

If farmer Brown tells a story then farmer Brown told a story, check the box on the data sheet next to “farmer Brown told a story”, kick him out, call in the next farmer, check the appropriate box, etc. What farmer Brown says is irrelevant. He may very well be an eyewitness to something, but we weren’t. All we know is that farmer Brown is in our face telling us a story. Check the appropriate box on the data sheet and move on.

If a crop circle appears in the middle of a field then a crop circle appeared in the middle of a field. Fred and Barney could tell us that they made it, they could show us how they made it, they could tell us why they made it, but we didn’t see them make it. For all we know Tom and Jerry made it and Fred and Barney are simply taking the credit for it. We could argue about who actually made the thing until the cows come home (and get mutilated) all we really know is that there wasn’t a crop circle, and then there was one. Check the box on the data sheet and move on to the next one.

(Saying that we "have no way of knowing or guessing" is tantamount to asking the rest of us to suspend our logical disbelief. "Believe me cause it moves me." And that is a religious claim, rather than a scientific or historic one.)

Yep, tha’s right. Don’t believe them. Assume nothing. Believe the little boxes you’ve checked on your data sheet, those are the only “facts” you have to work with, and there’s not a lot there. To date there is no bit of “evidence” regarding UFOs that everybody can agree on except the bit about there’s no bit of “evidence” regarding UFOs that everybody can agree on *shrugs*

However, the people trying to justify their disbeliefs with arguments like “aliens wouldn’t do that” “they would be logical”, “they would behave in a way that I can understand”, “they would land in Times Square” yadda yadda yadda is silly. There’s no need for that. Just look at the boxes you’ve checked on your data sheet. Base your conclusions on that.

If somebody comes along and says, “I have more boxes checked on my data sheet than you have” that’s fine, that’s great, doesn’t mean anything though, other than they have more (or less) boxes checked than I do. I could check the little box on my sheet that says “so and so has more boxes checked than I do” but that’s all I could do, I couldn’t copy there data sheet onto my data sheet. I could use their data sheet as a point of reference to go out and see if I can find more things that allow me to check off more boxes though, but that doesn’t mean I’ll check off the Same boxes as they did….


nullster:

The UFO community IS very fractured, insanely so. The medical community is also very fractured, as are Egyptologists…


Frosty:

“anerobic” ( Anaerobic) means ‘without oxygen’, not ‘without water’…



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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I do see the sceptics' points, but do you really think that the US government, Brazilian government, Canadian Government etc really investigated nothing but a big hoax and series of misconceptions?
There are cases documented in Operation Prato, with pictures that to me seem fairly convincing of the existance of saucershaped flying objects.

Just see this quote, it doesn't mean much really, but it could. Why would he say such a thing?


"UFOs are real and they may come from outer space....photographs and various materials show scientifically that there are more advanced people piloting the saucers and motherships."
-General Kanshi Ishikawa, Chief of Air Staff of Japan's ASDF, in a statement in 1967.


And this one, why would he make this up?


"Behind the scenes high ranking officers are soberly concerned about UFOs, but through official secrecy and ridicule many citizens are led to believe that the unknown flying objects are nonsense. . .To hide the facts, the Air Force has silenced its personell."
-Admiral Roscoe Hillencoter, former director of the CIA, at a 1962 NICAP press conference in Washington D.C.


Sure, there are alot of hoaxes, bogus, frauds, freaks etc within the community. Unfortunately.
Still, I wouldn't ignore the peices of evidence, quotes, pictures and video we have, which may be of great significance. Don't let one spoil the entire bunch.

I, too, doubt sometimes, like why the hell has it been 60 years, and nothing too proove for it?
It's a good question...






[edit on 27-10-2005 by Phood]



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 11:17 AM
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torbjon - There is a huge difference in the fields you compare. The UFO community is fractured into factions and has virtually no physical evidence to base their fracturing on. Where as the Medical and Egyptoligist communities have countless physical historical artifacts, sound theories, and scientific findings that support their arguments.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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nullster:

And yet, despite access to the same evidence (or lack thereof), they all reach different conclusions… odd that.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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torbjon heh...say what?


Anyway...Aliens abduction story tellers need to catch up to human advances in medical technologies. As been stated in this thread and others humans are decades more advanced than aliens in non invasive surgery. We are now moving into experimental remote control surgery in space.


"The tiny, wheeled robots, which are about 3 inches tall and as wide as a lipstick case."

"Some robots are equipped with cameras and lights and can send back images to surgeons. Others have surgical tools attached that can be controlled remotely."

"Researchers plan to seek federal regulatory approval early next year. Tests on animals have been successful, Oleynikov said, and tests on humans in England will begin in the spring."


See this Link Remote Robotic Surgery in Space

I think the problem with revising alien abduction stories is that there is no drama if aliens did their medical torture from space.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 01:26 PM
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nullster:

Medical practitioners have access to the same data, yet arrive at different conclusions. Egyptologists have access to the same data yet arrive at different conclusions. UFO nuts have access to the same data, yet come up with different stories *shrugs* Everybody has their own take on the data, they’re all fractioned factions, some more so than others. Put any group of people/specialist in a room together, I doubt you’ll get much of a consensus on anything, UFO nuts included.

As I stated earlier, just because the little green men can (presumably) build flying saucers doesn’t mean we can assume they have better (or equal) medical technology than we have. The one has nothing to do with the other.

It’s pretty easy to disbelieve, there’s no conclusive evidence, ergo I don’t believe. End of discussion. To make up an argument based upon insane claims like “this is what an alien would do, would think, would have” blah blah blah is silly, and, in my eyes, makes the debunker just as whacked out as the nut job UFO worshipper *shrugs*

For someone to insist that they know how/what an alien would think, do, have, act, react, believe, ponder or scratch scares me. To use this non-existent made up knowledge as a platform for debunking is ludicrous.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 02:06 PM
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Frosty, I do not mean to start any type of argument with you. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Have you ever heard of that report on the happenings at a primary school in S.Africa? A craft landed in the woods behind the schoolyard and two beings emerged. After it was over, specialists were brought in and asked the children who have never been exposed to the concept of ET's or anything highly technological. These children all drew the same thing...A round silver object with two beings that were a little taller then they were and the had really big eyes that were black. How do you explain that type of thing? I can see maybe one or two making something up but ALL of the children observed the same thing. This has happened there are reports on it with the drawings. Frosty, do you beleive in Extraterrestrial beings? The evidence is there man you just have to look for it. I agree that there is as much if not more false accounts of ET's out there but there are some real accounts as well. Over all the years, the accounts by people have varied some but all seem to share the concepts of the grays and their technology, its not a coincidence. There have been accounts of witnesses who found some loose pieces of the crash at Roswell then and later on who say that the metal was unlike anything they ever saw, you could bend it and it would retake its original shape. Do you honestly think that we humans are the most advanced civilization? Some of our tecnology could very well be reverse engineered did you notice that technology advancements occur in groups at a time? I dont want to fight, just try to open up.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by torbjon

Medical practitioners have access to the same data, yet arrive at different conclusions. Egyptologists have access to the same data yet arrive at different conclusions. UFO nuts have access to the same data, yet come up with different stories *shrugs*


That is a ridiculous set of comparisons.

Medical science is univerasally agreed on the microbial and viral theories of contagious disease. You will find the same body of reasoning in any medical school around the world.

Similarly, in Egyptology, there is wide agreement that the people being studied are, in fact, Egyptians, and not Lithuanians or something. Pretty much every school of thought, in every nation where Egyptology is persued, agrees that by the Middle Kingdom, pyramid-building had ceased.

And if you have a difference with the mainstream "ideology" in either of these scientific fields, you can publish a paper in a large number of periodicals, where you will be expected to provide evidence that other researchers can study for themselves. Those fields are changing and growing because researchers, even amateurs, contribute to the ongoing dialogue in a marketplace of ideas. Most practitioners agree on far more than they dispute.

Compare that with UFOlogy, where hardly any of the believers have any interested in verifiability, repeatability, or the scientific method. Nor is there much of a taste for creating hypotheses that can be tested in the field. A UFO convention (and I've been to several, thanks,) has a lot more in common with a religious "tent-revival" meeting (and I've been to several of those, too!).

You're pretty big on telling me what assumptions not to make, and then you go ahead and admit that every person has a different comfort-level with the assumptions someone else has made.

And the assumption that I keep coming back to as reasonable is that you simply cannot have coordinated activity (like being a space-faring civilization) without logic and mathematics. Maybe it is nothing like ours, but you still have some sort of logical plan at work. If you think that is an outlandish idea, then just let me tell you how outlandish it is to propose the alternative, that a bunch of non-linear, surrealistic Dada-ists are cruising around the cosmos doing non-sensical things that consume all their efforts for no reason at all. Who's making sense now?



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Phood
I do see the sceptics' points, but do you really think that the US government, Brazilian government, Canadian Government etc really investigated nothing but a big hoax and series of misconceptions?


Maybe the Americans wanted to know what the people knew about their top secret aircraft or if there were secret Soviet crafts they did not know aobut. Ever thought about that?



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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dr_strangecraft:

I like chatting with you. You’re clever and you have a nice avatar.

Conflicting medical opinions. Yes most medical practitioners agree on certain things. They do not always agree on everything. One doctor says it’s this, another says it’s that, and as a result my dad dies *sighs* So it goes...

Egyptologists. Yes, most Egyptologists will agree on certain things. They do not always agree on everything. Dates are a classic example. Each one of these sites states dates as if they know what they are talking about, and yet none of the dates match… odd that.

Djoser: 2800 bc ccat.sas.upenn.edu...

Djoser: 2667 bc – 2648 bc interoz.com...

Djoser sometime after 2650 bc lib.haifa.ac.il...

Djoser 2630 bc 2611 bc www.nationalgeographic.com...

UFO nuts are even more faction/fractioned than the above (lame) examples, they are just not the only ones who can’t get their act together, tha’s all.

I didn’t mean to come off all high and mighty (or just high) on what assumption to make (or not make) but I’m stickin’ to my guns on that one. If ya wanna be scientific, then assume nothing.

If you want to assume that “…you simply cannot have coordinated activity (like being a space-faring civilization) without logic and mathematics.” go right ahead, I’m not willing to make that assumption.

Bees partake in coordinated activity and have a booming fermentation industry. Some ants have coordinated activity and farm fungus, while others perform slave raids. Termites perform remarkable feats of coordinated engineering. Perhaps these animals posses the ability to reason logically and have some form of mathematics, I don’t know. I’m not willing to assume that they do or don’t.

I do like honey though.

(“If you think that is an outlandish idea, then just let me tell you how outlandish it is to propose the alternative, that a bunch of non-linear, surrealistic Dada-ists are cruising around the cosmos doing non-sensical things that consume all their efforts for no reason at all. Who's making sense now?”)

I’m not sure it consumes all of their efforts, or any effort at all for that matter. I don’t have a clue what goes through the head of an alien (if such a thing exists). It may seem like it has no reason at all to you and me, but what do we know? We’re human, not alien.

I don’t see anything outlandish about a bunch of non linear, surrealistic Dada-ists cruising around the cosmos doing non sensical things. If (big if) that’s what they are doing then that’s what they are doing *shrugs*

Again, skeptics, non-believers, debunkers, they have the clean end of the stick, they are standing on pretty solid ground, they don’t have to do much except say “nope”. Which is as it should be. They are not making any claims.

But when they start making stuff up, when they start saying “this is what an alien would do”, whoa, back up comrade, how did you come up with That little tid bit of information? So tell me, what Else would an alien do? Why? Do they listen to music? What kind? Bach? AC/DC??

How do they (the skeptics) know what an alien would do? How did they become an expert? What makes their made up story better than farmer Browns made up story?

When skeptics, non-believers, and debunkers start making up stories like that (when they don’t have too) I can’t help but wonder what it is they are afraid of. Why pretend to know what an alien would (or wouldn’t) do? Are the arguments from the UFO nuts Really that strong??



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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interestingly enough, im surprised no one has brought up the ancient civilization factor, specifically, pyramids.

I do find it hard to believe that on different continents in different societies that they decided to build pyramids that defy the ability we believe them to have had at the time.

these structures which are so massive and perfect in their construction, built by these "primitive" cultures? that if anything should bring up some interesting questions, and i know there is a thread on here already about it.

the fact remains this: if aliens wanted us to know for sure they existed, they would come down and make an undeniable appearance. For now they are just dwelling on the edges, collecting data, probably trying to figure out just what in the hell we humans are about. I mean if you were an alien race visiting and collecting data on earth, wouldn't you be confused as hell as to what you saw? i mean even we don't understand half of the stuff that goes on. We don't even know what the truth is behind the people that "rule" us. I think until they want to be seen and known of, all we will have is speculation on both sides.



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