Originally posted by jehova620
Ban all guns except for Police and Forces.
Get a dog that barks a lot.
No one gets killed.
How easy can it be.
I seriously dont envy you guys in America having gun weilding idiots roaming the streets.
Complete ban - the only way forward.

Then you have people arguing....

1) Only Police, Forces and Crooks have guns. The average Joe would be defendless

2) Guns don;t kill people, only people kill people

3) Its our rights

4) *insert any argument you may know*

1 law may work for 1 country, it may not work on another.

Depends on your taste and what you want to achieve.

A 12 guage loaded with rock salt worked in Kill Bill 2 but seriously though, I'd go for something good and sturdy.

My shotgun choice would be Franchi Spas 12 & Double-ought Buck. 7 or 8 + 1 Mag, with that nice little button under the slide to turn it in to a self loader.

My rifle choice has to be latest version of either the AK, something along the lines of the AK 74S version or the M16 with all the Gucci add-ons.

Machinepistole is either a 9 milly MP5 or 10 mil MP5SD3.

Hund gun should be the most comfortable in your hand as can be purchased. Any weapon that feels right in your hand will do the job. Try to test fire at the sales room if that is possible, I know some places in the States allow this. If you're happy, buy some really good Pachmayer (?s)grips for it.

Above all, get some practice on it at a local range or (if you're lucky enough)
do it in your back yard. Aim at proper man sized tgts and always but always, go for the head.

Why? Because I defy anybody to get up off the ground with a round in the head. Even a little .22 will cause a 'bleed-out' from a head wound. If you're going to engage somebody across your living room, don't buggar about. Shoot to kill. You may not get a second chance!

I know all you guys love the .45 but I prefer a 9 mil Baretta or one of those SiGs or Glock is probably better.

Good posts on banning guns.

Yes I agree Winchester Ranger T...precisely. Pity about the UK because there are many sensible people there on the topic of gun ownership. To bad they are not in politics.

Captain Sensible
Your statement about crime going up when guns are banned is verified here in the United States for some time now. The citys with the most restrictive anti gun laws have the largest crime rates across the board. Washington DC is a prime example. There are many other citys like this where such crime is rampant and guns laws so rectrictive. I understand Austraulia is going through symptoms like this in some of her cities. South Africa too. This information is mostly being supressed here in the states.

Contrary to what "experts " like to drum into a uneducated and unwary public the concealed carry laws have not resulted in the wild wild west syndrome in states where it has been applied and in most areas there has been a drop in violent crime.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Mossberg model 500 with the 18 1/2" barrel. Take the pistol grip and throw it away; leave the stock on.
Fill the tube with #4 shot. It'll put the bad guy on his arse , and the wall will absorb the engergy of the stray pellets so you don't kill your kid on the other side of it.

Go to the range or a clay pit and familiarize. Clean it afterward, set it in the corner near your bed and watch the dust pile up on it as chances are, you won't ever use it. We don't have hoiards of "gun-wielding idiots" roaming the streets.

you know what causes more problems here in the work place and on the roads in public...its not guns. No Sir.

I dont know what our intelligentsia are possibly thinking. Cell phones cause more problems at the work place and in automobiles. ...and this can even be bourne out with statistics.
Dont we need to ban cell phones and cars. Especially cars since they cause far more deaths than guns.
What could "experts/politicians" possibly be thinking.
Oh ..I'm sorry...I forgot...they are thinking about votes from insecure unthinking over emotional people who want others to be responsible for taking care of them like they do in large citys like Washington DC.
One thing I have learned is never look for a politician to take care of me...it will eventually backfire. Take the steps to take care of yourself. Especially education..on every topic including the one on the heading of this thread.
That farce in Toledo, Ohio last weekend should be a wakeup call to many about politicians and politics.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I asked a few posts back about holsters and slings, directing the question at those who augment their main weapon with a sidearm. Again, I ask...any suggestions as to slings/holsters? Anything to avoid, any place to get good stuff?

DE

Cheers orangetom1999 and Winchester Ranger T, if only more people here in the U.K saw it that way!
I can understand having licensing or even regular mandatory testing of the owners of firearms, to make sure they are fit to use them.
But at the moment the anti-gun lobbies are trying to get the following banned:

Deactivated weapons.
Blank-firing replicas.
Non-firing replicas.
Airguns (Rifles and pistols).
Airsoft replicas (Spring/Gas/Electric powered BB guns).

This is despite the fact that Replica weapons accounted for 0.02% of gun crime according to the 2000 Census which I posted a link to earlier.

Deactivated weapons used in gun crime? Yes it has been known for some weapons to be reactivated by an unscrupulous armourer and then sold on to gangs (There were two guys a while back got caught), but those are a thing of the past now that Eastern-bloc armaments are being smuggled in.

The same applies to blank-firing guns, I mean who cares if someone converts
a monkey metal Colt Python lookalike blank-firer to fire .22 ammunition?
All he achieves is a creating a device that qualifies either as a broken blank-firer or
underpowered handgun that will probably break on him.

Hmm what is next on the list for the antis?

Spud guns?
Water pistols?
Nerf guns?
Silly string?
Toothpicks?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I asked a few posts back about holsters and slings, directing the question at those who augment their main weapon with a sidearm. Again, I ask...any suggestions as to slings/holsters? Anything to avoid, any place to get good stuff?

DE

I think it really comes down to personal prefrence people swear by different styles for various reasons gun type, comfort , draw speed, concealment. One thing I will stress is dont cut corners on buying a holster. Ive seen people pay $1000 for a hand gun and then #$@%^ at spending $50 on a holster. A good holster makes the carry much more comfortable and safer.

I prefer a belt holster (leather) on the strong side because of a good draw speed and its comfortable for me. Its also easy to conceal with clothes I wear, For some people that may be problem if you tuck all your shirts in and dont wear a blazer you cant really CC with a belt holster. Heck if we didnt have to conceal handguns I might go with a Tactical leg holster.

Theres alot of options out there Shoulder, belt , leg, fanny pack, small of the back, Plastic, leather, synthetic fabric. You dont even have to get just one type I know guys that have boxes full of different ones.

So far, it's looking like this:

Rifles, while great in a "breakdown of law and order" type situation, they are not optimal in a home defense scenerio due to the rounds ability to go through the "perp", the wall, the neighbors wall, and the neighbors kid (in a worst case scenerio).

Shotguns, there seems to be a general consensus that the Mossburg 500 is a tried and true reliable contender, and it can easily be argued that the clasic "tchick-tchick" sound of a shell entering the chamber is one of the most frightening sounds to be at the wrong end of.

Handguns, seem to still be pretty wide open in regards to make, model, and caliber.

In regards to the criteria I set, I'd like to nominate the Glock 19c 9mm. It's in the right price range, tested reliable by military and police (it's big brother G17 more so), has fewer parts to fail or break than most, and is quite "userfriendly" with a large capacity, it's top vents to further compensate recoil, and the main safety built into the trigger so it truly is a "pick up and shoot" weapon without much fuss.

This category, and the others, are still quite open for suggestions though.

It also might be good to point out makes/models to avoid.

If you can think of any more contenders have at it. ,and although I understand some won't keep up with it, due to lack of interest or dislike of guns; I highly recommend range practice and experience to all.

Stay safe


[edit on 10/21/05 by redmage]

I never could quite understand the illogic and ill reason of a government which would trust you with a gun to fight thier battles for them around the "empire" but not have one at home. One has to be educated to get that dumb.
The main difference in us "Yanks" is that it is known here in America that gun ownership is a right not a privelege given by a soverign as in the UK. However someone here in America is trying very hard to follow the "European Example" and make us "civilized." Another 40 years of pubic education and most will forget that it is a right not a privelege and most will no longer know the difference in rights and priveleges.
For example I can remember when it used to be spoken of as your right to vote ..now that we are educated it is known as your voting privelege. Very slick transformation.

Also I did not know< Captain Sensible, that they were banning all those types of things like starter guns. That is precisely the kind of nonsense they would do here in places like California where they like to femminize everyone. Males and females. I have often said they will eventually be coming for my slingshot.

Heres one for you Captain Sensible...I was tinkering around out in my garage and I had about three feet of seemless copper tubing about 5/8ths of a inch in diameter. I took a welding rod and broke the flux off it and sharpened the end. I made a seal for the rod out of paper and taped it to the rod to seal one end of the rod..the cone part I let hang out somewhat of the tubing then cut it off with a pair of sissors. Having a large aircompressor I hooked my airhose to one end..and ...........good grief!!!!
I found out that with a hundred pounds per square inch of air pressure ...this was no toy. It launched that welding rod dart about a hundred and fifty yards....and fast too. The next shot I shot it into a four by four board. It stuck deeply into the wood...and I mean very deep. A dart like this at close ranges would go right through a human body. This thing is no toy. I'm sure they would frown on a toy like this in the UK.
I am a reloader here in the states ..reloading much of my own ammunition. Rifle and pistol. I find this a good way to relax when I have time. A good cup of coffee and some relaxing music out in my shop and I'm good to go for hours.
By the way Captain Sensible..I am also on a team that loads nuclear fuel in reactors. They can trust me with a fuel rod in a reactor..but not with gun ownership. It doesnt make good nonsense. Like I keep saying ..one has to be educated into this kind of stupid. Only education can dumb people down so far into the abyss. But thats politics for you olde man.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Captain_Sensible
Hmm what is next on the list for the antis?

Spud guns?

Actually, in my state those are illegal, handguns are fine though.

Originally posted by redmage

Originally posted by nightbreid
Remington 870P max 12 gauge.

This seems to be for police/military use.

Is it available to the general public as well? Legally I mean

Yes, and no.... There are some politics involved.
Remington doesn't like their LE/Mil products sold to the public. Some gun dealers adhere to this directive, and luckily, some do not. This model is perfectly legal, there isn't one thing on this gun that I couldn't put on myself. It's just that Remington wants it sold to LE/Mil only. Benelli sells the same set-up (minus the fore-end light, but it's available) to John Q. Public without batting an eye. Of course it's almost twice as much money. If you are interested in the 870P max, inquire by e-mail to different gun dealers, I'm sure you'll get a bite.

Please for the love of mint choc chip ice cream tell me you aren't serious about that redmage?
I mean, did some 8 year old go on a 'Temporarily blind people with bits of potato' shooting spree or something?

Oh, and orangetom1999 I know what you mean.
Here you could join the military at 16 and see combat at 18, but owning a firearm at home without endless licensing and restrictions? Hell no, that would actually be convenient!

1st choice - big, nasty dog with sharp teeth, lots of aggression and a scary bark.

2nd choice - shotgun, either pump or double. Things like SPAS 12 look good, but may be a bit expensive and complicated for this type of job. Shotguns are well useful at close range, and scare the bejesus out of people if you stick it up their hooters.

3rd choice - handgun, either revolver or semi, in a big calibre, e.g. .45ACP or .357 Mag. I'm normally a 9mm fan, and this will do the business, but the plan here is to drop the intruder with as few rounds as possible. I know 9mm can do this (I carry a Walther P5C in 9mm), but a .45ACP is better. If you fill someone with more perforations than a Tetly teabag, then there are gonna be a few questions asked by the local plod.

4th choice - Claymore AP mine (tough neighbourhood). May need an upgrade on the FAC for this option.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
4th choice - Claymore AP mine (tough neighbourhood). May need an upgrade on the FAC for this option.

Haha . Hey, Paddy!
Is it still that bad in Belfast?

My "home defense" is built on the idea of zones. Zones in the house itself, as well as running a zone defense against assailants.

Near the front door, hidden behind some decor, is a can of Pepper Spray. It shoots a thin stream up to 30 ft. and is completely non-lethal.

In the Bedroom is:

44 special, (K-frame) 5 shot revolver. No round in the first chamber. It is in a safe-box bolted the frame under my side of the bed. It has a combination lock I can activate without looking at, so that the kids can't get in. The empty first chamber is in case someone gets the gun from me. I have about 2 seconds, while they look at the unfired pistol, to rearrange the situation.

In the laundry room:

12 ga. automatic shotgun, stored in a gunsafe hidden behind an ironing board in the laundry room. Keys are hidden in Frau Dr's. side of the bedroom. 5 shells loaded. Alternating slugs with double ought buckshot.

If we had a home invader, I get the pistol and take the point, with lights on me. Frau Dr. is my back up in the shadows; and covers what I can't.

Other than the gun in the safe bolted to the bed, we don't store weapons in the bedroom. It is the FIRST place thieves look. And you are much more likely to be burgled than invaded in Texas. --Because of all those gun-crazed zealots, no one actually breaks into a home where a person might be. In my area of TX, 7 out of 10 homes contain a firearm.

Also, I have a paddle-type holster in the bedside drawer, for the pistol. Other than that, there's no ammo in the bedroom, so thieves don't know what to look for.

I also have some artillery in "the bunker," but that is strictly for the onset of "econo-hell." (the breakdown of law and order.)

Can the wife actually handle a shotgun? We'll see. Frau Dr. has asked to go pheasant hunting with me this year. Which is fine, since I have trouble with the kids; they shy away from the thick underbrush, and refuse to retrieve into the water. Maybe she can get them to perform . . .

If you are serious about home defense, I STRONGLY recommend the "CRIMEWATCH" and "McGRUFF" books from neighborhood watch. They are really honest, and although circulated by law enforcement, are refreshingly free of pro-police hype.

The old one I have tells you to consider hiding a gun in the kitchen, because a home invader will not look for valuables there. They willl not expect you to flee toward the kitchen.

They also advise you to get a dog. Breakers-in are more afraid of that than of any gun, which is true.

I am trying to get a dog, but not an inside dog. Hoping for a lab or springer spaniel. Maybe a hun. something that will take to the tall cover without flushing pheasant. The kiddoes just aren't cutting it.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Absolutely agree, I was actually gonna say that...

After reading this thread I decided my first firearm will be a Mossberg 500, the AK can always wait...and my wife would be more supportive of me having a gun that costs only 240 rather than 300+

I might get a stock and longer barrel for it since i'd like to go hunting with my family in Iowa, not that Iowa has alot of crime but i'm sure i'll move to busier areas in my life...