Should the Government Fund More Research into the Supernatural and More Reasons Why Dabbling in Occu

Ok so you think that within the next 5 to 10 years there will be a great spiritual awakening. Well maybe, but if that’ so why do we need individuals to mess with the occult?
Judging from the age we live in I think any spiritual awakening will come from scientific investigation. It’s the only language that most people accept, and it’s the only way we can unite the world’s faiths. Because that's what the effect of a spiritual awakening will be. There are many religions in this world and only the truth can unite them into one. Because that is the nature of both truth (and for that matter long lasting deception). Its deception that divides today’s many faiths and it’s the truth that always bring deception down.

This is why I am in favour of our government doing research into the supernatural. The Soviets did it for militaristic reasons during the cold war, and I suppose the Americans still do it today.
But where the truth exists it can be found. Science (of at least a sort) is the only thing that can demonstrate undeniably to today's many billions that the supernatural exists, as well as where it leads. This may be the spiritual awakening you’re talking about, and if so is something I already believe in.

But to say a spiritual awakening will come from direct and personal acts of God himself-themselves is something I disagree with. “Acts of God” happen on a daily basis, and they happen through the fact that both the past and future are already written…
It was scientifically proven in 1975 by Professor Carol Allie of the University of Maryland that just by travelling at any speed below the speed of light you do move yourself into the future. Of course its billionths and billionths of a millisecond in every day life, but an established part of Einstein’s theory of relativity which her experiments confirmed…

Good links, quickly mentions experiment
fs6.depauw.edu:50080...

Ok link.
www.geocities.com...

Talks of experiment
www.geocities.com...

Talks of experiment
www.plc.vic.edu.au...

Talks of experiment and gives you loads of scientific detail
praveenpr.topcities.com...

A more mainstream in depth explanation. Mentions experiment half way down
www.iit.edu...


Now because the future is accessible surely it also means the past is already written (if only because the past was once in the future)?
Through logic and science astrophysics has already shown that time itself began at the start of the universe. It makes sense given that time without a universe is almost contradictory in terms.
It also makes sense given that everything since the start of the universe has been a part of the same “divine” never-ending chain reaction.
Therefore if God(s) exists; and if they-he did create the universe, then everything that has happened since was already programmed into the universe some 4.5 billion years ago (or whatever the age of our universe turns out to be). Since (for the reasons said) whatever created the universe also programmed its future (although to what controlled degree remains slightly questionable).

So in a sense everything is an act of God, simply because everything is from the same “divine” never ending chain reaction (i.e. the start of the universe and its time).

This is why I disagree with the idea that any spiritual awakening (in our lifetime at least) will come from direct, personal and undeniable acts of God.
If we want to find the answers to spiritual enlightenment then scientific investigation into the supernatural is a good place to start. And if the answers are to come from science then it would explain exactly why it is that mankind’s enlightenment (and the unification of religion this will cause) is set to happen in the future, and quite probably not so distant future.
If you disagree with me by believing that an expansion of man’s spiritual knowledge will come more from acts of God, than the facts that are more within our reach now than any time before, you do so firstly in the face of…
1. (As said) everything is (in a sense at least) an act of God
2. There haven’t been very many (if any) of the types of acts of God you’re talking about.
3. And the question of: “why would God want to prove himself directly when he could already have done it through an expansion of knowledge he set out in a future he caused for us some 4.5 billion years ago?”

Sure Aronolac; you probably can prove the existence of the supernatural through dabbling in the occult and other such things. Certainly you can always prove it to yourself as many people have.
But you do it at the expense of the dangers I mentioned in my last (probably amongst others too).
But you also do it at the expense of another thing as well…
If (like you say) dark forces are “rebels” of a sort, then don’t you think that one of the best ways they could infer with the future God has already set out for us is to interfere with it now?
How better then than to do this precisely by contacting human beings? Like the “butterfly effect” in the movie where time travellers drastically alter the future by accidentally squashing one butterfly on a tour into the time of the dinosaurs, the repercussions of a demon (or whatever you call them) from talking to a human being (so be it through the means of the occult) could be enormous each and every time.
If you hadn’t been spending time talking to a demon mimicking a dead relative on the Ouija board, or making a sacrifice (or any other such thing), could you for example have bought a winning lottery ticket in the same instead, or had a car crash which “tragically” killed the next Hitler?
I would imagine that most of the time the repercussions from spending time talking to the supernatural directly are unlikely to be anything so sever. But given all the millions of people throughout mans history who have messed with the supernatural I would imagine (that out of probability alone) for a few of them at least the time spent talking to the supernatural would have led to consequences as sever in size.
And whatever the reasons of these “rebels” wanting to talk to you may be (be it in who they reveal themselves to be, or pretend to be) the consequences and more importantly reasons for bothering to talk to you as a “mere” human being can’t be good. Surely some how as rebels the reasons and things passed on by talking to you must lead to consequences that by one means or another are aided at undermining gods plan for the future (if anything to serve their own means).
Also many dark forces also seem to have an impeccable knowledge of events yet to come in the future. Could they be equipped with this for a good reason? (I.e. so they may know what in the future to mess-up).

Therefore if God wanted to reveal himself through human beings messing with the occult (as you seemed to be saying) then in my view at least it would be a pretty stupid means of revealing himself. This is especially so when you take into account the individual risks (surely an indicator of something?), the nature of the demons-rebels, and their likely consequences gained by them through talking to you.
It’s even an worse method of revealing himself when you think that given the future is already written (as said because you can travel to it) then surely god can reveal himself just through mankind being allowed to naturally push the boundaries of his knowledge?

I dare say that any proper well funded research into the supernatural would involve messing with the occult (but by no means necessarily), and that the consequences of this could indeed be in conflict with any future God has set out for us. On the other hand it would be useful for the initial stages of research at least. Furthermore greater longer lasting answers would be gained from messing in the occult for nationwide intended research reasons, than those gained from individuals messing in the occult for personal reasons.

But granted just because I advocate greater state funded research into the supernatural does not mean I advocate messing with the occult; precisely because of the unseen consequences this could cause through the contacting and communication with “dark forces”. There are other ways like telecommunication, probability assessment which through perhaps (in their nature) close to the practices of the occult, are also at the same time quite different given that they do not specifically involve contacting any time of one entity or the other.
Certainly in any supernatural research the consequences from messing with the occult would most predictably be designed by a “rebel” entity to derail the research, as well as perhaps for other far worse consequences.

But do you agree that the state should engage in greater supernatural research for greater public understanding of: God, the afterlife and man’s relationship with nature and the creator’s creation (as well as other such things)?
I should remind you that this is something that (in my view corrupted) bible does say is a signature of the so called “anti Christ”. But tell me seriously what is so anti Christ about unifying the world’s religions through a greater expansion of truth?
Personally I think this is more likely to pull the rug from under the “anti-Christ’s” feet by derailing any lies and half truths he might otherwise try to include.
Then again research by dabbling in the occult would give him a fresh opportunity to do this, but then again (as said) those means of research can be largely (if not completely) avoided.

So what do think? Fund research into the supernatural or let mankind carry on the texts of hundreds of different faiths of different sizes and different contradictions?

(This thread doubles up as a reply to “Aronolac” on the “Dark forces in disguise” ATS thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

First off I'd like to say that if any scientist is going to discover something "supernatural", then it can't really be "SUPERnatural", but just "natural" and undiscovered/unharnessed.

I think that a lot of people are already researching and experimenting with the paranormal, and a lot more wish to do so. But there is still quite a bit of ridicule associated with investigating these things. The only problem is the total lack of funding. People don't like to put their money into things that are either uncertain, or won't return a profit.

For the most part, most paranormal phenomenon would have no real application for the world. You can't really sell or use telekinesis for a specific task. And if it was easy to use and control, people would already be doing it on a mass scale. The fact is... the money you put into proving/disproving psychic/paranormal phenomenon will never return into profit. Researching new drugs to cure diseases is a worthwhile thing for scientists, because the drugs will generate large amounts of profit. Research in biology, physics, chemistry, etc have applicable, money-making opportunities for all sorts of industries. Unfortunately, the paranormal is more just an interest rather than applicable skills to help or world. And too many of them, if real, could be misused by the average idiot. So if they were discovered/proven/shown how to be harnessed, I don't think the average person would have access to it. (Giving everyone psychokinesis on a massive scale all at once would be like handing people the instructions and materials needed to make explosives, and giving them no idea into how to use it constructively.) See, I can't figure out even how Time Travel could be applicable or useful in daily life. I believe time travel is most likely possible, but would require massive amounts of energy and resources, and once you go through time you would probably not be able to come back, because I doubt you could make a time machine an actual portable vehicle. But I don't even consider "Time Travel" supernatural, because there would be nothing supernatural about it if it were possible. I would classify it under "Alternative technology/science".

So I am led to believe that if anyone is going to figure it all out, it is going to be people experimenting/researching it in their spare time. And for doing this, I believe you should leave God out, unless you are specifically asking God to provide you with the ability every time you do it (which will not be replicatable on a large scale/number of times, and is thus useless anyway). I think people should worry about learning all of the things here on earth before they try using scientific methods to explain God or an afterlife.

And

It was scientifically proven in 1975 by Professor Carol Allie of the University of Maryland that just by travelling at any speed below the speed of light you do move yourself into the future.

Thanks for stating the obvious, Prof Allie. It took us until 1975 to realize that you can travel forward in time, just by sitting around doing nothing? LOOK AT ME, I JUST TRAVELLED 10 MINUTES FORWARD IN TIME WHILE WRITING THIS :O. lol.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by Yarcofin]

//response moved from "Dark Forces".

Dear Liberal84

My response in the text below.

L84:
Ok so you think that within the next 5 to 10 years there will be a great spiritual awakening. Well maybe, but if that’ so why do we need individuals to mess with the occult?


A:
That is true, count on a great spiritual awakening to being within the next few years. Individuals will not have to, to use your phrase, “mess with the occult” much longer. Occult is not a pejorative term by itself, but it gained notoriety in the 19th century when it was associated with the sorted practices of so-called spiritual investigation. As in science, the universe of spirit, is only hidden so long as it is not investigated and the results known and the ability to make meaningful contact a reproducible phenomena. Such results are in the works even now. Visit tmarchives.com where hundreds of individuals are getting consistent results from around the world. It is hardly occult when it can be seen and the discussions verify each other from total strangers who have learned the process.

L84:
Judging from the age we live in I think any spiritual awakening will come from scientific investigation. It’s the only language that most people accept, and it’s the only way we can unite the world’s faiths. Because that's what the effect of a spiritual awakening will be. There are many religions in this world and only the truth can unite them into one. Because that is the nature of both truth (and for that matter long lasting deception). Its deception that divides today’s many faiths and it’s the truth that always bring deception down.

A:
Deception is a loaded term, but I get your point. First it would be very helpful to recognize that mainstream religions are the evolutionary religions and not revealed religions, although many evolutionary religions have that aspect incorporated within their doctrines. Evolutionary religions contain the by-gone beliefs in ghosts and practices of the shamans and mix it with incidences of genuine revelatory experiences of past ages. Truth is there, but it is compromised by keeping elements of the superstitious past. What I am speaking to is not the evolutionary religions, but the appearance of revelatory information that is presently coming through to correct the evolutionary religions and upstep this world’s various cultures. The young lady in question who started the thread this one diverged from may actually have received a prompt to investigate the processes now offered to provide so much incoming information.

L84:
This is why I am in favour of our government doing research into the supernatural. The Soviets did it for militaristic reasons during the cold war, and I suppose the Americans still do it today.
But where the truth exists it can be found. Science (of at least a sort) is the only thing that can demonstrate undeniably to today's many billions that the supernatural exists, as well as where it leads. This may be the spiritual awakening you’re talking about, and if so is something I already believe in.

A:
You have an overmuch belief in the efficacy of the scientific method. It is well known that the values of spirit are not the same as the quanta found in the material existence of the universe. And no one will ever convince a materialist that anything other than the literal stuff of space exists. What has to change, not only within the present scientific community, but also with the rigid doctrines of the mainline churches, is the realization that much more exists in the universe than is presently believed. That is the first step and such a realization is hardly occult, but these things remain hidden partly because we do not wish to know, or are too lazy to think about what the evidence of everyday living suggests is possible in the universe.

It is unworkable, in my view, to have the government investigate the process whereby anyone can be trained to communicate with spiritual beings or with what some call aliens. They, all of them, are not permitted to disclose information the government could use to get advantage over anyone except perhaps, the advantage of knowing that spiritual beings and aliens exist. These communications are strictly controlled by what we would call our equivalent of an ethics committee, and no one is going to get by them to gain advantages in espionage or war.

L84:
But to say a spiritual awakening will come from direct and personal acts of God himself-themselves is something I disagree with. “Acts of God” happen on a daily basis, and they happen through the fact that both the past and future are already written…

A:
I agree with and disagree with portions of your statement above. I would just point out that revelation is an act of God, and it is revelation that we are receiving. Logic suggests that if God does not make revelation directly, it is not made at all. But, revelation is being directed toward all of us now, even as we speak, on some part of this globe.

L84
Now because the future is accessible surely it also means the past is already written (if only because the past was once in the future)?

A:
Predestination is not an element or law of the value universe. It is incorrect to call the material laws of behavior proof of predestination. The laws that govern the behavior of matter are dependable. The laws that govern spirit are dependable as well. Laws describe a system, that once known, will repeat itself ad infinitum. Predestination is entirely something else and does not operate in anything except in one aspect and that is that the will of God will be done if given a long enough period to fulfill itself. In a sense, and not a literal one, destiny is subject to a known conclusion if the circumstances are known that shapes a destiny. It is in this arena only that the term predestination may have some application.

L84:
Through logic and science astrophysics has already shown that time itself began at the start of the universe. It makes sense given that time without a universe is almost contradictory in terms.

A:
Agreed.

L84
It also makes sense given that everything since the start of the universe has been a part of the same “divine” never-ending chain reaction. Therefore if God(s) exists; and if they-he did create the universe, then everything that has happened since was already programmed into the universe some 4.5 billion years ago (or whatever the age of our universe turns out to be). Since (for the reasons said) whatever created the universe also programmed its future (although to what controlled degree remains slightly questionable).

A:
It’s easy to get into muddle with this. I have already suggested that the “end” is a “destiny”, and yes, the will of God has a purpose in mind that will be fulfilled. The trouble is, that :destiny” may have overtones of infinity, and if that is the case, final destiny does not exist in terms of time. But everything leading up to some intermediate destiny, whether it be personal or universal, is genuinely an open call as for results because it is subject to the free-will decisions of an unlimited number of beings who possess it. Of all the things in the universe, it is the personal that is not predictable because of the existence of choice. The material universe may have “chain reactions, but the personal universe is not subject to them, at least not dependably so.

L84
So in a sense everything is an act of God, simply because everything is from the same “divine” never ending chain reaction (i.e. the start of the universe and its time).

. . . .

1. (As said) everything is (in a sense at least) an act of God
2. There haven’t been very many (if any) of the types of acts of God you’re talking about.
3. And the question of: “why would God want to prove himself directly when he could already have done it through an expansion of knowledge he set out in a future he caused for us some 4.5 billion years ago?”

A:
I accept that the rest of your post is an explanation of your personal philosophy concerning the “rightness” (which is really a moral judgment, not a scientific one), of celestial communication. I do not deny any part of your reasons as being good for you, but it is not a wise thing to prohibit the same moral rights they see in the investigation of celestial contact. Otherwise, you are, and we are, face to face with censorship of the differing opinions within a diverse universe of free-will beings.

I think your exercise here is valuable. It helps people think about what they do and why. And I thank you for taking the time to articulate what must be, for some, the reasonable course for society to take when it comes to these circumstances. However, the over riding principle of going where the truth takes you is at work here. Man does not originate truth; God does. Man learns it through trial and error, but sometimes he has to learn it through the process of revelation to correct his planet from the insane practices of the past millennia. As a species, we are growing up, and we have to learn how to behave in a manner consistent with the mature ideals of peace and goodwill on earth. Something, we have not been able to do so far. Let us hope that the universe manages to get the message across that we need to learn so that science can perfect itself, and the church does not strangle the spiritual water out of life anymore.

Ron

Thanks for the response Yarcofin
Do you think that anything that is supernatural that can be proven real is not supernatural because it is real? Do you therefore think that anything that is supernatural is not really real, instead merely the mechanics of (I assume a somewhat spirit free) reality in action?
Certainly it sounded like that to me. Butl to my argument that’s quite great because once scientific investigation is done into the supernatural you are right that many people will just regard it as the mechanics of the reality (which is kind of the point). And what else can it be? (Assuming the supernatural really exists of course).

The stuff the Russians did during the cold war was amazing, they used astral communication to view secret documents, they even had a military physic navigate a blindfolded Russian soldier through a live landmine field in which the chances of passing through were statically more than a thousand to 1.
They did research into something called the “psycho generator” and wanted to use energies associated with the supernatural for crowd control, and to cause health problems as well as benefits.
They investigated polterghosts to see if there energy could be created artificially for warfare reasons, although they gave up on that one because they found polterghosts to be too unreliable for research purposes.

All I want to see is research done into the supernatural to benefit public knowledge. And yes; as there’s no money in it, it would indeed need to be state funded. But it’s probably a damn sight better for the state to spend money on this than say religious education (although I'm not arguing for a conflict between the two).


Aronolac
In of your points I think you basically said that because the nature of many states of matter are random, the past and future cannot be written.
Unfortunately what they do is only random in the present. It cannot possibly be random in the future because otherwise it would not be possible to travel to a stable future (even by a few milliseconds) which I gave in the previous links.
I would imagine that the earth rotating at 66000 thousand kilometres an hour for the last few billion years must have travelled into the future from its start by quite a bit by now.

Regarding another point I can’t say that using your own mind to do little experiments is particularly cultish. I have done stuff like affect the flame on a candle, and even put it out just by focussing on it long enough. We’re both agreed that these sorts of things are hardly “occult”.

But all my objections to the occult focus on communicating with dead spirits and darker forces through ritual and instruments like the Ouija board.
Anyway I’ve already explained why I don’t like people messing with what I call the occult. But what do you think about communicating with dark forces gives them a grand opportunity to mess up god’s-the gods future (through the butterfly effect ect?. Certainly “demons” are known to have pretended to be a dead someone you know on the Ouija board for example.

I also don’t like black magic much although I like to think its ok for defence, and wishing people the best.

Also maybe I do have an overloaded view of the value of the scientific method. But so what when its properly funded research that I'm interested in?
And of course how the research is conducted, the results achieved where, and when along with just about everything else a bunch of human researchers do can be always be recorded. This alone can boast our understanding (even if scientific comparisons aren’t necessarily achievable).
And if the results are promising there is nothing to say that atheists and the material minded can’t be persuaded by understanding alone to take religion and or the supernatural a little more seriously. Because I believe that if the truth exists it can not only be found but also shared.
Differences of opinion arise from ignorance, so it’s a matter of ignorance which needs to be filled in to convince most of the world’s atheists (but as with anything there will always be a minority of exceptions of course).
I can’t prove to you that something like the research I'm calling for can fill this ignorance in when it hasn’t been done yet. But surely we’re agreed it will be a big help?
Because if it’s a help, then in a rich country like ours where many people die here (and throughout the world) not knowing if there is a god (or even supernatural) I think this sort of research is something we could afford. And if it attracts the interests of other nations, and they decide to contribute (like they do in many other areas of research) then that’s an added bonus which only time can bring.

Currently you and I as believers in God-supernatural don’t have any knowledge that could prove to an atheist there is a God. But as said the truth can be shared, and what we ourselves may have experienced through the “supernatural” can be understood better. You and I may have beliefs about things, but there’s a big difference between belief and understanding. It’s the understanding I'm interested because understanding through one way or another leads to proof. And even if the supernatural where somehow a big exception to this rule, we can at least have an understanding that is second only to proof, right now all we have is belief, and (as said) belief and proof are not the same.

Properly funded research into the supernatural simply requires the political will, and in this field a little money may go a long way. This is sure to lead to more public interest so perhaps more money.

Right now the state spends unnecessarily large sums of money on sorts of things (like defence, burocracy ect). And there are many other things which could be squeezed just a little to make way for “supernatural research”.

If we fund research into near death experiences, ghosts, mind over matter, astral projection and other like things we can recover most of the costs just by advanced press releases to the highest newspaper-magazine bidder. After all there’s no denying my proposed project would be a gift to the interest of every newspaper and magazine.

So we are certainly a country that is rich enough to afford research into the supernatural.
We are also one with many religious-interested people who would appreciate a better understanding of the issues they build their religious beliefs on or around.
If this did lead to uniting the worlds religions, then don’t fear the bibles end day revelations to much because it is only a long term thing, and surely a good thing if it prevented the antichrist from lying to people about religion as much as he could now.

I'm not saying state funded research into the supernatural could provide enough answers to end the world's religions differences, thereby uniting them as one (for one thing governments are usually tight on everybody’s budget!). But imagine if such a thing were possible.
Don't you think that if the state researched the supernatural with proper finances and a more modern-professional approach that this would at least help accelerate mankind’s journey just a little bit?

*double post please delete*

[edit on 4-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Liberal1984

This is why I am in favour of our government doing research into the supernatural. The Soviets did it for militaristic reasons during the cold war,

An they had nothing to show for it. No psyonic weapons, no nothing. They couldn't even forsee their own demise.

There is no sense in giving funding to supernatural research, since you can't really research the supernatural, not scientifically anyway, and the US has too small of a research budget to be able to afford to study the supernatural.


[edit on 4-10-2005 by Nygdan]

All the other replies were good, but I have my own, something that I don't think has been brought up yet (I skimmed).

The government likes to keep its people in the dark. Them helping people wake up spiritually would be counter-productive to their own agenda. They would just be defeating themselves. People would not want or like to be controlled anymore. And once someone realizes that nobody but himself can fully control himself, that's the only way it will be from that point on.

I assure you, if the government cared about its people (or in some cases, knew how to care), this place would be much, much, much different. The government doesn't want its people to advance further than their containment walls can hold..