Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

Originally posted by gps777

Me much happyness

Thanx Saint4God for clearing that for me

Sure thing, glad I could help.

Originally posted by saint4God
Yeah, wikipedia has as much weight with me as the paper it's written on. Can I start my own editable encyclopedia too? No offense, but don't like this source as reliable foundation of information.

In general, it's a good, quick resource, but of course, nothing is as good as in depth research.

If I were to ever used the word Lucifer (in ceremony or theosophically), I'd want to know exactly what I meant by it. How difficult would it be to see the world "Lucifer" in a Masonic text and go straight to a dictionary to find the following?

Which is precisely my point, and is why I first wanted to define the term. Many, many anti-Masons have taken a couple of sentences from Pike and Hall, quoted them out of context, and have attempted to condemn all of Freemasonry over it, when they themselves do not understand the authors' meaning.

You got my vote.

There are so many Bible-belt blogs that take these out-of-context quotes and use them to persuade people away from freemasonry. I mean, they have been a major obstacle to me finally deciding to join. This page has been VERY enlightening.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by trinitrotoluene]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Lucifer is the term the early Romans used for the planet Venus. wiggy
lucifer, then michael, then gabriel. he was the top dog, they say, and most beautiful. God's most beautiful creation. In some Jewish documents, it says Shaitan is God's D.A., heaven's prosecutor. So he is feared, and he metes out punishment... which might explain how reviled he has been. maybe he's not so bad afterall. I mean, look at the front of Rockefeller center in NY. Prometheus, the Greek God who was punished for enlightening mankind......Lucifer's counterpart, is represented and memorialized with a huge gold statue. He got a real licking for sneaking us som Godpowers.

Though "Saturday" comes from Saturn's Day, "Satan" acutally comes from the Arabic "Shaitan", or Adversary.

How it came into Christian use is kind of embarrassing for Christians. Some pope wanted to have a new term for the Devil. He thought that Arabic was the ugliest and most evil language in the world, and so he thought it would be a good idea to incorporate their word for Adversary for the Devil.


EDIT:
And you know, nobody really knows the Devil's name. We give him names which are descriptive of either what he once was or what he is now. I'm sure that God's language isn't Latin, and so the Devil's literal name is not Lucem Ferro (I bring the light) or Lucifer (a neat-o combination of the two words). It's not Satan or anything.

I'm sure he has a name... but I REALLY don't want to be so well-acquainted with him as to know it...

[edit on 15-9-2005 by trinitrotoluene]

Originally posted by gps777
I think i will go and check out Axes thread but i dont trust Axe either no offence Axe lol (better clean that up)he`s never insulted me and i him in personal attacks,he`s a smart and well learned fella i dont share his faith in Masonry,what i`ve wittnessed of him is that he will remain staunch on his veiws even when proven wrong on a topic outside the realms of Masonry.So be careful saying his thread is water tight he probably has`nt come up against the right person like in this thread.(Loungerist)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Notice in the beginning of that thread how all the Mason`s and pro Mason`s were boasting and riduculing?and through out the thread Loungerest remained on target and refained from personal insults and was was clearly the victor if thats not a clue (good men becoming better and all),which to insumountable proof and logic Axe had to concede only in the end,and his little side kick mainly doing the insults in support of Axe (blind support)nor did i see the little side kick for calling them all those names after the fact Axe conceded.Now it dose`nt surprise me they wont listen to anyone other than who is for them,everyone else are just idiots, tin foil hat wearer`s,fundies etc.Mason`s way or the highway attitude.

I just want to address this since you're talking about me...

First of all, Never not once did I call anyone any names.

Secondly, for all his posting all Loungerist did was show that there was work written about the Illuminati before Webster. That is what I conceded to; he really never disproved the fact that the websites I mentioned and the authors I mentioned (contemporary conspiracy theorists) use Webster as a primary resource... because of course he can't. So no, gps777, he did not "prove me wrong" in the context I was speaking. He was only interested in showing that others had written about them (the Illuminati) before her, and that is what I conceded. As far as your comment about me not listening to anyone else, etc. that is not true, otherwise I would have used the classic "Well I'll just take my ball and go home!" tactic we see employed so often by posters in this very forum. He was right, I gave him credit for it. I don't think that's being a jerk or "my way or the highway" about it. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty even-handed and I have no problem admitting it when I am wrong, which, if you followed my posts, you would know about me already.

Furthermore, there are no anti-Mason posts in my Pike thread. I wonder why!?

Sorry for butting in with that, but my name was brought into it, so...

[edit on 9/15/05 by The Axeman]

Personally Axe as far as Mason`s or Pro Mason`s are concerned yourself ML CO_Cowboy are very polite compared to other`s and other Mason`s (someone somewhere may disagree?),i feel strongly in my observations of Mason`s behavior on ATS either ridicule slander and bully tactic`s.My mistake was saying i dont trust Axe which is false,i should have edited and stated i dont trust Axe`s point of view because there`s a big difference.

My main concern on this thread was for The_Final he`s a young intelligent guy and if i was his age could be influenced by what i thought were the tough guys on the block without looking at it from others perspective`s,i hope you know what i`m getting at here even if we are in opposition.

I have respect for you Axe i dont respect your Masonic views,if a person is to make up their own mind on a topic such as Freemasonry or other they need to hear both sides which is what i hoped i`ve done?even if its to a small degree which was my aim and not my aim at offending though i knew full well you would`nt be sending me a xmas card because of it.

The_Final dropped your name in the thread to begin with(unless flattery is your main concern which i doubt),which became from then a topic of discussion personally imo if you had of seen loungerists point and conceded earlier than 4-5 pages i would have not used it as an example had it not been for an abusive member supporting you, my opinion would be that point would have been conceded earlier,here you go he`s an example of respect i have for you-i knew you would be a bit peeved at my comments but i know you are a bigger man not to be out rightly flaming mad about it,cross yes.

I think you kow the answer why people did`nt respond when the first page is ridiculing them before they participated,lots of laugh`s at crickets as a bait to get someone to slam if their view is different so you can all feel brotherly.So dont wonder why people are`nt interested.

To me there was and is more a important issue at hand than my reputation as a slanderer which i hope i`ve made clearer or you being offended.

Antimason`s, i suppose i`d have to be grouped in with them from your or other Mason`s are concerned,i cant speak for anyone else but for myself i`m not interested (pike mason threads)because of the interactions i`ve witnessed and read,is why i can`t be bothered (maybe i`m not the only one?)unless there`s nothing of any real interest on the boards and i`ll have a read and see if its still the same styles of arguments.Not much changes from either sides or views.I dont hate Mason`s i dont agree with their view`s or their actions which sometimes i hate same can be said for anything.

I`m poorly educated and i`d have to say most of my study(if you could call it that)is on here ATS.I can see a large improvement in my spelling from when i first came here and words i can use to explain my view.It may take a few more years for me to engage in a conversation with you that might be of benifit to either of us,in which i mean to be understood clearer.

But none the less you have my apologies, you and i as i stated have never had a falling out from my view anyway and hope this can be seen not to be too bigger rift to get over in future discussion even though we have always been oppossed it has always been my hope that one day we wont be.


[edit on 16-9-2005 by gps777]

gps777

I'm disappointed that you have chosen to 'box' people here at ATS. By categorising people as either pro-mason or anti-mason you attempt to polarise a debate which needn't be so. I don't see any pro- or anti-conspiracy labels being hawked around anywhere else on the forum and I think it would be more constructive to avoid labels entirely as most of us justy don't fit neatly into any sort of box.

I'm also interested to hear more about the 'ridicule slander and bully tactics' that you claim masons employ on this site. Do tell. With the excpetion of one member who has been banned, I think you will find very little evidence on the forum to back this claim up.

I think it would be better all round if you didn't make inflammatory comments such as this. But that's just me.

Incidentally, I think we can give the_Final credit for having a mind of his own... don't you? He's gone and done a bunch of independent research and that is to be applauded.

Originally posted by Trinityman
gps777

I'm disappointed that you have chosen to 'box' people here at ATS. By categorizing people as either pro-mason or anti-mason you attempt to polarise a debate which needn't be so. I don't see around anywhere else on the forum and I think it would be more constructive to avoid labels entirely as most of us justy don't fit neatly into any sort of box.

I'm also interested to hear more about the 'ridicule slander and bully tactics' that you claim masons employ on this site. Do tell. With the excpetion of one member who has been banned, I think you will find very little evidence on the forum to back this claim up.

I think it would be better all round if you didn't make inflammatory comments such as this. But that's just me.

There`s been more than 1 Mason banned but we are to exclude them all?

Hav`nt you then just boxed me in your opinion?Thats your opinion and your welcome to it.

How would you prefer it used to describe the different side`s or views?

Example pro bush-anti bush, pro wiccan-anti wiccan,pro Gov-anti Gov
pro pizza-anti pizza,pro pro-anti pro,pro christian-anti christian

This needn`t be so, having this conversation with you this instance was between Axe and myself, but you still posted only to back a Mason or soon to be?very slight example of bully tactics that a lot of people wittiness and yes your entitled to your opinion that this is`nt an example.

Search`s for your enjoyment and banter i`ll not partake you can disagree with my view i`ll still sleep.

Edit to add-if you read my posts you would have seen i had already given him (Final)credit and respect.Which dos`nt disprove people cant still be influenced from only hearing the majority of one side.

Or probably more to the point is this an attempt to sway Axe not to take my apology that i gave?If so you dont have as much respect for him as i.

In all fairness then from your point of view it should be alright if i`m disapointed that your disapointed.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by gps777]

Q: Is Freemasonry A religion?
A: No, Freemasonry IS religion.

Well that's the gist of it when you study the higher degrees.
In Masonic terms ALL religions are a lie, they are a "shade to protect weak eyes from a truth so bright it would blind"

The first Degree of Freemasonry definatally contains Satanic elements but as Pike clarifies in his Essay of the 32nd Degree in Morals & Dogma in Masonic belief system there is ultimatally no Good or Evil, just opposing points of view which supposedly keep the universe in balance and it is only belief that propels man towards any goal.
And any goal can be any goal because without movement there is no life at all, hense the dumbfounding belief in Masonic religion that war propels humanity and civilization more than any other factor.

Morals and Dogma is "a pretty good read" to understand the answer to this thread.
Actually it addresses it in full, in just on 800 pages.
(Tip: It's much easier to read backwards than forwards.)

Originally posted by gps777
My main concern on this thread was for The_Final he`s a young intelligent guy and if i was his age could be influenced by what i thought were the tough guys on the block without looking at it from others perspective`s,i hope you know what i`m getting at here even if we are in opposition.

I have a pretty good sense of direction, and it takes a lot to change my opinion. But thanks for the advice anyways.

The_Final dropped your name in the thread to begin with

Yes I did, it was an example of what I was trying to do. I was positive when I first wrote it up, that this would be nearly irrelevant (naming Axemens thread) but I suppose it has caused more trouble than I had guessed.

Antimason`s, i suppose i`d have to be grouped in with them from your or other Mason`s are concerned,i cant speak for anyone else but for myself i`m not interested (pike mason threads)because of the interactions i`ve witnessed and read,

Thank you for not just going to ( I guess the word is pro-mason?) posts and trying to bash it for the hell of it.

I can see a large improvement in my spelling from when i first came here and words i can use to explain my view.It may take a few more years for me to engage in a conversation with you that might be of benifit to either of us,in which i mean to be understood clearer.

For that you have my respect.

I haven't had too much time to pay attention to ATS sadly, I think I will have to read this thread a few more times to adress the problems, sadly which may not take place today. I would like to thank all of those who have contributed thus far. Get Ready for an Edit cause I feel I have a lot more to write here.

::FIRST EDIT::

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Q: Is Freemasonry A religion?
A: No, Freemasonry IS religion.

Well that's the gist of it

Actually MrNecros thats it.Don't bring up that high degree stuff, that has been gone over here on ATS more time than I want to count.

The first Degree of Freemasonry definatally contains Satanic elements but as Pike clarifies in his Essay of the 32nd Degree in Morals & Dogma

A passage or chapter, that I can look that information up would be great.

(Tip: It's much easier to read backwards than forwards.)

Acutally thats like reading a Math book backwards, you will be lost and confused if you read the back to front method. You need to slowly build up to it.

[edit on 9/18/2005 by The_Final]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT MY WORK.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Well that explains your lack of comprehension right there! Try reading left to right.

The sarcasm really isn't needed....Is it?

You can make your point without trying to make an ass out of other people's opinions...can't you?

Good deal then....Carry on......Pardon the intrusion....

Edit: Okay....I'm a complete idiot...And I truly apologize for accidentally deleting your post The Axeman....The Edit and Quote button are just too close together for my own comfort...:bnghd:

NONETHELESS! We both know the witty little comments you typed here, and I politely ask you to be a bit more courteous in the future....

[edit on 9/18/2005 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

[edit on 9/18/05 by The Axeman]

[edit on 19-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by The_Final

I have a pretty good sense of direction, and it takes a lot to change my opinion. But thanks for the advice anyways.

I can see a large improvement in my spelling from when i first came here
and words i can use to explain my view.It may take a few more years for me to engage in a conversation with you that might be of benefit to either of us,in which i mean to be understood clearer.

For that you have my respect.

I`d better fully fess up,I use IE spell checker the difference now is IE spell checker can now understand what i`m trying to spell
IQ means for naught when i did a nation wide test on tv showed mine as 144
A correct answer can and will be overlooked by some because of spelling or bad grammar even if someones IQ is example 70

My only hope is that someone recognizes not me but who i respect (Christ)

Edit for spelling

[edit on 18-9-2005 by gps777]

Furthermore, there are no anti-Mason posts in my Pike thread. I wonder why!?

Is this an invitation?

Axeman friend?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

Furthermore, there are no anti-Mason posts in my Pike thread. I wonder why!?

Is this an invitation?

Axeman friend?

Gopher it. If you'll look at the thread the invitation was extended at the very beginning.

I've been waiting, but no one seems to want to play.

It should be stressed that the thread is on the topic of Pike and Morals and Dogma. It is not on the topic of Freemasonry in general. Though the two do at times overlap, please keep it on topic.

[edit on 19-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by gps777

I`d better fully fess up, I use IE spell checker the difference now is IE spell checker

That is not something bad to say, it says that you actually care if people can understand what the hell you are trying to say... I wish I could say the same about some users

IQ means for naught when i did a nation wide test on TV showed mine as 144

They said my was 156 if I was 18, and I was only 12 at the time

Now just waiting for MrNecros to respond...

somehow babylonian witchcraft is alot like freemasonry. lol, isnt that sorta wierd. hahah

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
somehow babylonian witchcraft is alot like freemasonry.

Are you serious, or are you being sarcastic? If so could you present proof, or even explain to us (with sources) what babylonian witchcraft is. Thanks I figured to ask these before anyone else just cause I know most people would flame you.

Perhaps you will actually read my post this time; it sure as hell was a lot more than a couple of "witty little comments."

Although you did allow me to add some material I had previously overlooked, try to refrain from deleting it; though if you do it's OK, after I retyped the whole bloody thing from memory, I actually saved it to my hard drive this time, just in case you fat-finger it again...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Q: Is Freemasonry A religion?
A: No, Freemasonry IS religion.

Well that's the gist of it when you study the higher degrees.
In Masonic terms ALL religions are a lie, they are a "shade to protect weak eyes from a truth so bright it would blind"

First of all, that line is nowhere to be found in Morals and Dogma. Your "quotation marks" reek of intellectual dishonesty, and taking for granted that people will not be familiar with the work. In most cases you would be right, but not this time. In fact, to make my point, why don't you show me the page number where I can find that line? Or did your super-secret-one-of-a-kind copy of M&D go up with the toilet?

www.sacred-texts.com...

Secondly, Pike does not say that all religions are a lie; in fact he says quite the opposite. For example:

Morals and Dogma, p. 311, Chapter 18: Knight Rose Croix

In all religions there is a basis of Truth; in all there is pure Morality. All that teach the cardinal tenets of Masonry we respect; all teachers and reformers of mankind we admire and revere.

Wow. Respect, admiration and reverence for all religions that teach the tenets of Masonry (Which is nearly all of them; save perhaps Satanism... Belief in a Supreme Being, anyone? )

Then we find this:

pp.575-577, Chapter26: Prince of Mercy, or Scottish Trinitarian

Here Masonry pauses, and leaves its Initiates to carry out and develop these great Truths in such manner as to each may seem most accordant with reason, philosophy, truth, and his religious faith. It declines to act as Arbiter between them. It looks calmly on, while each multiplies the intermediates between the Deity and Matter, and the personifications of God's manifestations and attributes, to whatever extent his reason, his conviction, or his fancy dictates.

While the Indian tells us that PARABRAHMA, BRAHM, and PARATMA were the first Triune God, revealing Himself as BRAHMA, VISHNU, and SIVA, Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer; . . . .

The Egyptian, of AMUN-RE, NEITH, and PHTHA, Creator, Matter, Thought or Light; the Persian of his Trinity of Three Powers in ORMUZD, Sources of Light, Fire, and Water; the Buddhists of the God SAKYA, a Trinity composed of BUDDHA, DHARMA, and SANGA,--Intelligence, Law, and Union or Harmony; the Chinese Sabeans of their Trinity of Chang-ti, the Supreme Sovereign; Tien, the Heavens; and Tao, the Universal Supreme Reason and Principle of all things; who produced the Unit; that, two; two, three; and three, all that is; . . . .

While the Sclavono-Vend typifies his Trinity by the three heads of the God Triglav; the Ancient Prussian points to his Triune God, Perkoun, Pikollos, and Potrimpos, Deities of Light and Thunder, of Hell and of the Earth; the Ancient Scandinavian to Odin, Frea, and Thor; and the old Etruscans to TINA, TALNA, and MINERVA, Strength, Abundance, and Wisdom; . . . .

While Plato tells us of the Supreme Good, the Reason or Intellect, and the Soul or Spirit; and Philo of the Archetype of Light, Wisdom [Σοφια], and the Word [Λογος]; the Kabalists, of the Triads of the Sephiroth; . . . .

While the disciples of Simon Magus, and the many sects of the Gnostics, confuse us with their Eons, Emanations, Powers, Wisdom Superior and Inferior, Ialdabaoth, Adam-Kadmon, even to the three hundred and sixty-five thousand emanations of the Maldaïtes; . . . .

And while the pious Christian believes that the WORD dwelt in the Mortal Body of Jesus of Nazareth, and suffered upon the Cross; and that the HOLY GHOST was poured out upon the Apostles, and now inspires every truly Christian Soul: . . . .

While all these faiths assert their claims to the exclusive possession of the Truth, Masonry inculcates its old doctrine, and no more: . . . . That God is ONE; that His THOUGHT uttered in His WORD, created the Universe, and preserves it by those Eternal Laws which are the expression of that Thought: that the Soul of Man, breathed into him by God, is immortal as His Thoughts are; that he is free to do evil or to choose good, responsible for his acts and punishable for his sins: that all evil and wrong and suffering are but temporary, the discords of one great Harmony, and that in His good time they will lead by infinite modulations to the great, harmonic final chord and cadence of Truth, Love, Peace, and Happiness, that will ring forever and ever under the Arches of Heaven, among all the Stars and Worlds, and in all souls of men and Angels.

So here Pike tells us that Masonry lays no claim to a religious doctrine; that is for the individual to decide for himself according to his own beliefs and religious convictions. What Masonry does teach is those Truths that are universal throughout; that fit and apply within all of them; that every man, regardless of their individual brand of faith, can agree on. Hardly saying each is a lie.

He later goes on to write:

pp.725-726, Chapter 28: Knight of the Sun or Prince Adept

Thus there is a side on which morality touches religion. It is a sublime necessity of Humanity to see in God the Legislator supremely wise, the Witness always present, the infallible Judge of virtue. The human mind, ever climbing up to God, would deem the foundations of morality too unstable, if it did not place in God the first principle of the moral law. Wishing to give to the moral law a religious character, we run the risk of taking from it its moral character. We may refer it so entirely to God as to make His will an arbitrary degree. But the will of God, whence we deduce morality, in order to give it authority, itself has no moral authority, except as it is just. The Good comes from the will of God alone; but from His will, in so far as it is the expression of His wisdom and justice. The Eternal Justice of God is the sole foundation of Justice, such as Humanity perceives and practises it. The Good, duty, merit and demerit, are referred to God, as everything is referred to him; but they have none the less a proper evidence and authority. Religion is the crown of Morality, not its base. The base of Morality is in itself.

Here he is saying that Religion is founded on Morality, not the other way around. In other words, men of all faiths can agree on the Principles and Morals taught by Freemasonry, because Morality is not affected by the peculiarities of the different religions around the world and throughout History. Religion is based on Morality, not the other way around. Makes sense to me.

The first Degree of Freemasonry definatally contains Satanic elements but as Pike clarifies in his Essay of the 32nd Degree in Morals & Dogma in Masonic belief system there is ultimatally no Good or Evil, just opposing points of view which supposedly keep the universe in balance and it is only belief that propels man towards any goal.
And any goal can be any goal because without movement there is no life at all, hense the dumbfounding belief in Masonic religion that war propels humanity and civilization more than any other factor.

Please show me where this is claimed as a Masonic belief. Pike does mention several times throughout Morals and Dogma that there are systems of belief that hold what you claim to be true, that the ideas of Good and Evil are merely attempts to attribute good things to God, and bad things to the Devil, when in fact everything, good or bad, comes from the One Source and for a that everything happens for a reason. Qabalah, for instance, is one of these.

I fail to see where he asserts this as a "Masonic belief system," though.

I have also failed to find any mention if the idea that "war propels humanity and civilization more than any other factor." Perhaps you would be so good as to give a quote and a page number, or a few, as you are so well acquainted with M&D.

Here's what is in the book regarding war; I'll save you the trouble (cheifly because I know you will never post it).

p. 70, Chapter 3: The Master

A war for a great principle ennobles a nation. A war for commercial supremacy, upon some shallow pretext, is despicable, and more than aught else demonstrates to what immeasurable depths of baseness men and nations can descend. Commercial greed values the lives of men no more than it values the lives of ants. The slave-trade is as acceptable to a people enthralled by that greed, as the trade in ivory or spices, if the profits are as large. It will by-and-by endeavor to compound with God and quiet its own conscience, by compelling those to whom it sold the slaves it bought or stole, to set them free, and slaughtering them by hecatombs if they refuse to obey the edicts of its philanthropy.

I don't see any kind of advocation for war there; he says a war for great principle ennobles a nation; for example to save a people from being ruthlessly hunted down and killed by the thousands simply because of their religious beliefs; but that "war... upon some shallow pretext, is despicable." Hmmm... But he's not done yet...

pp.124-125, Chapter 6: Intimate Secretary

Masonry is the great Peace Society of the world. Wherever it exists, it struggles to prevent international difficulties and disputes; and to bind Republics, Kingdoms, and Empires together in one great band of peace and amity. It would not so often struggle in vain, if Masons knew their power and valued their oaths...

Who can sum up the horrors and woes accumulated in a single war? Masonry is not dazzled with all its pomp and circumstance, all its glitter and glory. War comes with its bloody hand into our very dwellings. It takes from ten thousand homes those who lived there in peace and comfort, held by the tender ties of family and kindred. It drags them away, to die untended, of fever or exposure, in infectious climes; or to be hacked, torn, and mangled in the fierce fight; to fall on the gory field, to rise no more, or to be borne away, in awful agony, to noisome and horrid hospitals. The groans of the battle-field are echoed in sighs of bereavement from thousands of desolated hearths. There is a skeleton in every house, a vacant chair at every table. Returning, the soldier brings worse sorrow to his home, by the infection which he has caught, of camp-vices. The country is demoralized. The national mind is brought down, from the noble interchange of kind offices with another people, to wrath and revenge, and base pride, and the habit of measuring brute strength against brute strength, in battle. Treasures are expended, that would suffice to build ten thousand churches, hospitals, and universities, or rib and tie together a continent with rails of iron. If that treasure were sunk in the sea, it would be calamity enough; but it is put to worse use; for it is expended in cutting into the veins and arteries of human life, until the earth is deluged with a sea of blood.

Not quite what you would have people believe, is it Necros? Let us continue:

p. 297, Chapter 18: Knight Rose Croix

Moreover, the Voice says, this besotted race is not satisfied with seeing its multitudes swept away by the great epidemics whose causes are unknown, and of the justice or wisdom of which the human mind cannot conceive. It must also be ever at war. There has not been a moment since men divided into Tribes, when all the world was at peace. Always men have been engaged in murdering each other somewhere. Always the armies have lived by the toil of the husbandman, and war has exhausted the resources, wasted the energies, and ended the prosperity of Nations. Now it loads unborn posterity with crushing debt, mortgages all estates, and brings upon States the shame and infamy of dishonest repudiation.

At times, the baleful fires of war light up half a Continent at once; as when all the Thrones unite to compel a people to receive again a hated and detestable dynasty, or States deny States the right to dissolve an irksome union and create for themselves a seperate government. Then again the flames flicker and die away, and the fire smoulders in its ashes, to break out again, after a time, with renewed and a more concentrated fury. At times, the storm, revolving, howls over small areas only; at times its lights are seen, like the old beacon-fires on the hills, belting the whole globe. No sea, but hears the roar of cannon; no river, but runs red with blood; no plain, but shakes, trampled by the hoofs of charging squadrons; no field, but is fertilized by the blood of the dead; and everywhere man slays, the vulture gorges, and the wolf howls in the ear of the dying soldier. No city is not tortured by shot and shell; and no people fail to enact the horrid blasphemy of thanking a God of Love for victories and carnage. Te Deums are still sung for the Eve of St. Bartholomew and the Sicilian Vespers.

Man's ingenuity is racked, and all his inventive powers are tasked, to fabricate the infernal enginery of destruction, by which human bodies may be the more expeditiously and effectually crushed, shattered, torn, and mangled; and yet hypocritical Humanity, drunk with blood and drenched with gore, shrieks to Heaven at a single murder, perpetrated to gratify a revenge not more unchristian, or to satisfy a cupidity not more ignoble, than those which are the promptings of the Devil in the souls of Nations.

Yeah he seems very enamored with war...

It occurs to me that the man detests the very thought of war; the very idea of it. I think actually his beliefs about war are the polar opposite if what you suggest. Hardly surprising.

Morals and Dogma is "a pretty good read" to understand the answer to this thread.
Actually it addresses it in full, in just on 800 pages.

Wrong again, Necros.

The word Lucifer is mentioned in four passages in Morals and Dogma; none of which imply that it has any place whatsoever in Masonry. Period. For the benefit of our readers I will post them as well.

p. 73, Chapter 3: The Master

Hypocrisy is the homage that vice and wrong pay to virtue and justice. It is Satan attempting to clothe himself in the angelic vesture of light. It is equally detestable in morals, politics, and religion; in the man and in the nation. To do injustice under the pretence of equity and fairness; to reprove vice in public and commit it in private; to pretend to charitable opinion and censoriously condemn; to profess the principles of Masonic beneficence, and close the ear to the wail of distress and the cry of suffering; to eulogize the intelligence of the people, and plot to deceive and betray them by means of their ignorance and simplicity; to prate of purity, and peculate; of honor, and basely abandon a sinking cause; of disinterestedness, and sell one's vote for place and power, are hypocrisies as common as they are infamous and disgraceful. To steal the livery of the Court of God to serve the Devil withal; to pretend to believe in a God of mercy and a Redeemer of love, and persecute those of a different faith; to devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; to preach continence, and wallow in lust; to inculcate humility, and in pride surpass Lucifer; to pay tithe, and omit the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith; to strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel; to make clean the outside of the cup and platter, keeping them full within of extortion and excess; to appear outwardly righteous unto men, but within be full of hypocrisy and iniquity, is indeed to be like unto whited sepulchres, which appear beautiful outward, but are within full of bones of the dead and of all uncleanness.

p.102, Chapter 3: The Master

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.

Hmmm... the false Lucifer of legend... How very interesting...

pp. 320-321, Chapter 19: Grand Pontiff

The Apocalypse, that sublime Kabalistic and prophetic Summary of all the occult figures, divides its images into three Septenaries, after each of which there is silence in Heaven. There are Seven Seals to be opened, that is to say, Seven mysteries to know, and Seven difficulties to overcome, Seven trumpets to sound, and Seven cups to empty.

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.
The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.

It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.

"Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands, calculate!" he often says, after an allegory or the mention of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be understood by the multitude.

The Apocalypse of St. John, or Revelation.

pp. 323-324, Chapter 19: Grand Pontiff

It is WISDOM that, in the Kabalistic Books of the Proverbs and Ecclesiasticus, is the Creative Agent of God. Elsewhere in the Hebrew writings it is דבר יהוה, Debar Iahavah, the Word of God.

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but in our convictions, consciousness, and instincts. Hence it is that! certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tuphon, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.

So tell me Necros, how in your mind does this imply that Freemasonry in any way, shape, or form gives Lucifer any level of great importance? I'm breathless with anticipation...

(tip: It's much easier to read backwards than forwards.)

That explains so much. Try reading left to right.

(And a very special () to Enron...)

Now, if you'd care to try to back up your claims that I just pretty much turned into confetti, feel free.

[edit on 9/19/05 by The Axeman]

I would like to add that I started reading this not 2 seconds after Axemen posted this, and I am wondering why did you edit this post
(assuming it is the same as the prior post)? And I would like to express my amazement when I went through his entire post which is well written to adress the "Errors" that is seems that MrNecros included in his single post thus far into the thread.Anyways I thought I should bring it up, to put in a good word incase the post is edited agian.