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Who was Lucifer, and when did he fall from Heaven?

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posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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I think the bible gives a pretty good explanation as to who lucifer was. I dont think we can know for sure the exact day or year he fell from heaven but from what I have gathered from reading the bible, Lucifer did not fall from heaven until after the creation.

EC




posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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If you want to get really technical about it, Lucifer was the King of Babylon aka the Son of the Morning/Dawn.

Relevant Biblical passages:

Isaiah 14:4


That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:12-13


How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

You are correct in thinking that Lucifer was after creation, because he was a human King.

Nowhere in the Bible does it name Satan as Lucifer, although they both seem to be high on God's 'naughty' list for extremely similar reasons.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 10:56 PM
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job 38:7 will identify son of the morning as angels that were present during earths creation. lucifer was also present , as he is a fallen angel. he was not the only one.


Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.



luke 10:18 will backup isiah 14 as it references it


Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

another connection crosses isiah , ezekiel and revelations. we can assume revelations is talking about the same person. and then by that, so must isiah and ezekiel.


Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:.....Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; .....
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,


referencing the dragon quote of revelations 12:9. we can now tie satan in with the serpent of Genesis 3. which in turn makes this statement by ezekiel make sense. the king of babylon in isiah 14 is referenced again in revelations,(17, 18), and rev also references it back to ezekiel.


Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;.....
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;.......



posted on Sep, 11 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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Isaiah 14 refers to the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II.

Iasaiah 14 is quite clearly about the King of Babylon and is clearly stated as such in verse 4:



That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

He is referred to as Lucifer, Son of the Morning, in verse 12:



How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

And in verse 16 it is made clear that Lucifer, Son of the Morning, is a human man, not an angel:



They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

And goes on to state that he will not be given the honour of burial with the rest of the Kings in verses 18-20, and confirms that he has a physical body:



All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Isaiah 14 is part of a prophecy againsts Babylon that begins in Isaiah 13:1:



The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

The same thing follows in Isaiah 15:1, and Chapter 15 & 16 detail the prophecy against Moab.


The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence;

Then again in Isaiah 17:1, a prophecy about Damascus that is Chapters 17 & 18:


The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.


The fine print of why God was so peeved with Nebuchadnezzar can be found in Daniel 1-4, leading up to him being cast out in Daniel 4:30-33:


The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

And finally, if Lucifer was Satan, why would he be trying to ascend to the Heavens, as stated in Isaiah 14:13? Satan was already in Heaven.



For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:



posted on Sep, 11 2005 @ 01:31 AM
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Satan was already in Heaven.

satan was in eden, read ezekiel.

EC



posted on Sep, 11 2005 @ 01:34 AM
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Evolution Cruncher///


Who was Lucifer, and when did he fall from Heaven?

I think the bible gives a pretty good explanation as to who lucifer was. I dont think we can know for sure the exact day or year he fell from heaven but from what I have gathered from reading the bible, Lucifer did not fall from heaven until after the creation.


Lucifer the chief of the fallen Angels......
Angels are bodiless spirits.
Angels were created before man.....that is why MAN was created....to FILL IN THE RANKS OF THE FALLEN ANGELS.
Satan is pissed off that God created MAN and always seeks out to destroy all that is good.....




On the creation of Angels.....
The angels were created either before the creation of the material world, when the sense, of time is incomprehensible to man, or, it is thought by some Fathers, at the very beginning of creation, when light was created on the first day.


The nature of angels is bodiless, spiritual. They have no flesh and bones (cf. Luke 24:39). But the spiritual nature of angels is not the same as God.
They have an ethereal (very thin) body, thus they cannot be everywhere at the same time.
Angels often take on the forms of men or youth; they speak in human voices; they eat and appear clothed, and many times wear wings. As spiritual beings the angels have no sex, therefore do not multiply.
The host of angels, though, is innumerable. Although they cannot be in many places at the same time, they move from place to place.
The Holy Bible says the place of angels is in the heavens, meaning throughout the universe. The angels have great power and strength: "The angelrolled back the stone (in front of the tomb) and sat upon it", Matthew 28:2; "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven withhis mighty angels in flaming fire", 2 Thessalonians 1:7.
Physically, mentally and spiritually they are superior to man, and their will has been inclined toward good........

FALLEN ANGELS BECOME DEMONS

Many angels during the time of temptation out of arrogance, self-deceit and disobedience, attempted to be above God Himself and fell from the sight of God. As self-deceited, they cannot be saved as man is saved, since he is deceived by the devil. These "fallen" angels are the demons, the evil and unclean spirits, of whom the chief is Satan. In the Bible they are referred to by various names, depending on their particular work: devil, satan, serpent, father of lies, deceiver, murderer, lucifer, tempter, evil spirit, chief of darkness, dragon, veelzevoul, veliar and eosforos. They thought they could be independent from God, and a revolution took place among the angels:

"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him", Revelations 12:7-9.

Demons oppose the redemptive work of Christ for the salvation of man. They attempt to lead the faithful ones away from God by placing obstacles in their path and exploiting difficult events, such as illness, loss of job, poverty, prison, etc. Nevertheless,

"Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life", Rev. 2:10.


On Exorcism and Angels

Another thing about Angels.....MUSIC....Liturgy?
Music is part of praising God .....The angels sang to their Creator....
Music is spiritual....it gets to the SOUL........Power of music has many profound effects.
Music can be used for good and bad/bring Joy or hatred..........Lyrics of songs can have a great impact on people.........(backmasking as in the famous song by "Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zeppelin....
listen to it here..Reverse speech~
The above reverse speech has appeared as a post heading on a number of occasions.
...music can be that powerfull that it reaches deep into our souls and effect our emotions.....depending on what one listens to.

Back to LUCIFER....
Lucifer means .........




Thus Lucifer, who was later called Satan, or the devil (meaning a slanderer), was the initiator of the very worst of sins, pride and self-satisfaction, which serve as the basis for all other sins and vices.
Lucifer planned to found a kingdom of "free" and "independent" spirits, separated from God. But this kingdom, founded on the principles of sin, was a clear failure, and came to be known as hell or the abyss. Instead of a promised paradise, it became a place of impenetrable darkness and unending misery. It became so terrible that the fallen angels themselves, the demons or devils, fear it, and wish to escape from it, as from a prison (Luke 8:31).

The devil was not content with having caused a tragedy in the world of pure spirits, with having founded his own kingdom. Because he hated God and all that God had created, he decided to bring evil to the crown of God's creation, the first man. For this purpose he assumed the form of a serpent and tempted Adam and Eve to break God's commandment by eating of the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3).
He was a skilful seducer; he convinced them that, if they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they would become all-knowing and mighty, like God. He deceived them with the same idea with which he had once deceived himself: the possibility of becoming godlike easily and all at once, without the Creator, even in opposition to the Creator. And so, man was ruined by the same sins which had already ruined Lucifer: pride and self-love.


more here~wher does evil come from

heavenly hosts~

quote///
n the Apocrypha
In Wisdom ii. 24 Satan is represented, with reference to Gen. iii., as the father of all lies, who brought death into the world; he is apparently mentioned also in Ecclus. (Sirach) xxi. 27, and the fact that his name does not occur in Daniel is doubtless due merely to chance. Satan was the seducer and the paramour of Eve, and was hurled from heaven together with other angels because of his iniquity (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxix. 4 et seq.). Since that time he has been called "Satan," although previously he had been termed "Satanel" (ib. xxxi. 3 et seq.).

The doctrine of the fall of Satan, as well as of the fall of the angels, is found also in Babylonia. Satan rules over an entire host of angels (Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2; Vita Adæ et Evæ, xvi.). (Click link for more info and facts about Mastema) Mastema, who induced God to test Abraham through the sacrifice of Isaac, is identical with Satan in both name and nature (Book of Jubilees, xvii. 18), and the Asmodeus of the Book of Tobit is likewise to be identified with him, especially in view of his licentiousness. As the lord of satans he not infrequently bears the special name Samael.

www.absoluteastronomy.com...

hope that helps a bit.
IX
helen



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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And this is one of the problems of using the KJV. There are a couple of definitons of Lucifer using in the OT the ones often used are: The morning star, or venus.

TO think that Lucifer is another name for Satan only follows Judeo-chritian mythology, and litterary authors who use the name as such like John Milton did in "Paradise lost"

Nebacaneezer was called Lucifer because his kingdom would fall, just as the morning star would

This is what you should be reading when you ask about Satans fall from heaven... notice the past tense of the verse

Revelations 11 7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


[edit on 9/12/2005 by Jehosephat]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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‘Lucifer’ is mentioned only one time in all the canon, in Isaiah 14:12:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (KJV)

The word used, in the Hebrew, is heylel, used as a noun which means:
the morning star (in the sense of brightness)
and is taken from
the verb halal, a primitive root meaning:
to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine, hence to make a show, to boast and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave, causatively to celebrate, and also to stultify: (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

Otherwise in the Old Testament, we do not find ‘heylel’ anywhere else; but there are 140 verses where we find ‘halal’:


  • Genesis 12:15
  • Judges 16:24
  • 1Samuel 21:13
  • 2Samuel 14:25, 22:4
  • 1Kings 20:11
  • 1Chronicles 16:4, 16:10, 16:25, 16:36, 23:5, 23:30, 25:3, 29:13
  • 2Chronicles 5:13, 7:6, 8:14, 20:19, 20:21, 23:12, 23:13, 29:30, 30:21, 31:2
  • Ezra 3:10, 3:11
  • Nehemiah 5:13, 12:24
  • Job 12:17, 29:3, 31:26, 41:18
  • Psalms 5:5, 10:3, 18:3, 22:22, 22:23, 22:26, 34:2, 35:18, 44:8, 48:1, 49:6, 52:1, 56:4, 56:10, 63:5, 63:11, 64:10, 69:30, 69:34, 73:3, 74:21, 75:4, 78:63, 84:4, 96:4, 97:7, 102:8, 102:18, 104:35, 105:3, 105:45, 106:1, 106:5, 106:48, 107:32, 109:30, 111:1, 112:1, 113:1, 113:3, 113:9, 115:17, 115:18, 116:19, 117:1, 117:2, 119:164, 119:175, 135:1, 135:3, 135:21, 145:2, 145:3, 146:1, 146:2, 146:10, 147:1, 147:12, 147:20, 148:1, 148:2, 148:3, 148:4, 148:5, 148:7, 148:13, 148:14, 149:1, 149:3, 149:9, 150:1, 150:2, 150:3, 150:4, 150:5, 150:6
  • Proverbs 12:8, 20:14, 25:14, 27:1, 27:2, 28:4, 31:28, 31:30, 31:31
  • Ecclesiastes 2:2, 7:7
  • Song of Solomon 6:9
  • Isaiah 13:10, 38:18, 41:16, 44:25, 45:25, 62:9, 64:11
  • Jeremiah 4:2, 9:23, 9:24, 20:13, 25:16, 31:7, 46:9, 49:4, 50:38, 51:7
  • Ezekiel 26:17
  • Joel 2:26
  • Nahum 2:4


Out of 140 verses the translations are as follows:

  • Commend=2 verses
  • Praise or praised praising=98 verses
  • Boast=10 verses
  • Mad=10 verses
  • Glory=11 verses
  • Fool or fools=5 verses
  • Shine or shined=4 verses


The name ‘Lucifer’ in some ways seems to be a fitting substitution for the Hebrew, as shown below:


allwords.com Copyright 2003 Crystal Reference
Lucifer noun
1. Satan.
Etymology: 11c: Latin, meaning ‘light-bringer', from lux, lucis light + ferre to bear.



On the other hand, it is not correctly translated into a proper name (capitalized); for if Isaiah had meant to name someone he surely would have indicated it somehow. From the way the root verb is used in the rest of the OT, it would seem to be a more accurate translation to use a word that mean ‘someone who shines’ or ‘boasts’ or is ‘praised’; depending upon the context of Isaiah chapter 14, of course—in which case ‘boasting fool’ or ‘shining proud fool’ would seem to fit—I think Isaiah must have chose this word in particular because it represents several different things that applied perfectly to what he was trying to get across. A strict Hebrew translation, however, would be ‘the brilliant one.’

So, how did we wind up with it being a name for Satan?


From etymonline.com:

O.E. Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from L. Lucifer "morning star," lit. "light-bringing," from lux (gen. lucis) + ferre "carry" (see infer). Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its used in Bible to translate Gk. Phosphoros, which translates Heb. Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv.12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [K.J.V.] The verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to "Satan," because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (cf. Isaiah xiv.4). Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831.


The translater of portions of the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate is Jerome, or ‘St Jerome,’ as he has been canonized by the RCC.


From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Jerome, Saint

(j r m´, j r´ m) (KEY) , c.347–420?, Christian scholar, Father of the Church, Doctor of the Church. He was born in Stridon on the border of Dalmatia and Pannonia of Christian parents (although he was not baptized until 366)
his Roman name was Sophronius Eusebius Hieronymus. He studied in Rome (c.359–363) under Aelius Donatus. After further study at Trier and Aquileia, he journeyed to the East. At Antioch, in 375, he experienced a vision in which Christ reproved him for his pagan studies. Renouncing his classical scholarship, he fled to the desert to live as an ascetic and to devote himself to scriptural studies, for which he learned Hebrew. In 378 he returned to Antioch, was ordained there the following year, and then went to Constantinople to study under St. Gregory Nazianzen. In 382, Jerome returned to Rome with Gregory, when Pope Damasus I asked them to help settle some Eastern problems
Jerome remained as papal secretary. He was acclaimed for his exposition of Scripture, and Damasus requested him to begin on a new version of the Bible. Jerome was spiritual adviser to a number of noble ladies leading conventual lives, among whom the most eminent was St. Paula. Jerome’s outspoken criticism of the secular clergy, however, caused antagonism, and when Damasus died he returned East. From 386 to his death, Jerome worked in the monastery that Paula established for him in Bethlehem. There he did the bulk of revision of his Latin translations of the Bible. He also wrote commentaries on Ecclesiastes and the epistles of St. Paul, translated Origen’s homilies, revised part of the Latin version of the Septuagint, and translated from the Hebrew Isaiah and other prophets, Psalms, Kings, and Job. Jerome’s texts were the basis of the Vulgate. In 393 he wrote De viris illustribus [concerning illustrious men], biographies of 130 Christian writers. Other works include Adversus Jovinianum [against Jovinian], which praises virginity, a dialogue against the Pelagians, panegyrics on deceased friends (e.g., St. Paula), and brilliantly written letters, of which over 100 remain, which furnish a rare account of his time. His correspondence with St. Augustine, with whom he sometimes quarreled, is of particular interest. St. Jerome was involved in many theological and scholarly controversies, even with a long-established friend such as Rufinus. Collections of patristic literature have translations of many of his works. St. Jerome is buried in the Church of St. Mary Major in Rome. Feast: Sept. 30.


As it mentions above, Jerome was involved in controversy and conflict, and it is an accepted fact among scholars (unbiased scholars) that Jerome’s translation and other works were often freely influenced by his own biases and alliances within the various battles going on in the early christian church—issues which often resulted in councils being formed and creeds being written in order to ‘combat’ certain things they considered heresies. Basically what it amounted to was a soap-opera drama-rama, a struggle between men for political/religious domination, out of which the mainstream christian/catholic/protestant doctrines have grown.

He also didn’t hesitate to let his own beliefs color his work, and for the most part, he fits more the description of ‘interpretor’ rather than ‘translator.’ He was qualified more than sufficiently to be a translator, but chose interpretation, instead—no doubt there was much pressure on him to do so, and at the time, that was just the accepted way.


From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Lucifer

(l ´s f r) (KEY) [Lat.,=light-bearing], in Christian tradition a name for Satan. In the Vulgate, Lucifer served as a translation of the Hebrew epithet meaning “Day Star,” a name associated with the presumptuous King of Babylon in the Book of Isaiah. Some early Christian writers found a parallel in the Gospel of St. Luke, where Jesus refers to Satan falling like lightning from heaven. On this basis they identified Isaiah’s “Day Star” with Satan and concluded that there was scriptural authority for designating him “light-bearer.” In antiquity Lucifer was also the name given Venus as the morning star.


The church ‘fathers’ felt they had every authority to act as intermediary between God and man, which is a fact which contradicts any conviction one may have that they truly were authorized—because if they had been, they would not have ignored two fundamental NT teachings. The first being Christ is our intermediary, none other, and that which Paul said about envy, strive, and vain contentions not being the fruit of the spirit.

One of the main issues at the time of Jerome was the ‘heresy’ of ‘Arianism’.


From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Arianism

(âr´ n z´´ m) (KEY) , Christian heresy founded by Arius in the 4th cent. It was one of the most widespread and divisive heresies in the history of Christianity. As a priest in Alexandria, Arius taught (c.318) that God created, before all things, a Son who was the first creature, but who was neither equal to nor coeternal with the Father. According to Arius, Jesus was a supernatural creature not quite human and not quite divine. In these ideas Arius followed the school of Lucian of Antioch.


It would appear Jerome had some negative opinions/feelings about Antioch, which was no doubt exacerbated by his appointment under Pope Damasus, who had been opposed in his papal appointment by the Arians:


From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Damasus I, Saint

(d m´ s s) (KEY) , c.305–384, pope (366–84), a Spaniard
successor of Liberius. His election was opposed by the Arian Ursinus (antipope 366–67). The Roman emperor Valentinian I had Ursinus exiled and decreed that all religious cases must come before the pope. Damasus ruled with vigor, addressing the entire church with authority. He encouraged the papal secretary St. Jerome in his work on the Vulgate, and undertook to memorialize the early martyrs by placing inscriptions on their tombs. He was succeeded by St. Siricius. Feast: Dec. 11.


When Jerome translated Isaiah 14, it would seem he let his personal opinions preclude any objectivism toward accurate translation, for it would seem there was a difference in loyalties between Lucifer of Caligari (Meletius) and Jerome (Paulinus); as well as the residual animosity due to the fact that Lucifer had been a previous ‘ally’ in the battle with the Arians, wherein the final placement of his allegiance made a schism in a third direction:



From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Lucifer of Cagliari

(l ´s f r, kälyä´r ) (KEY) , d. 370, bishop of Cagliari, Sardinia (353–70), violent opponent of Arianism. As legate of Pope Liberius he went to the council at Milan (355) that Constantius disbanded by exiling the Catholic delegates. Lucifer was bitter against those who seemed to submit to Arianism, and on his return to Sardinia (362) he formed a sect of his own, barring all who had strayed into Arianism at all. His peremptory consecration of a bishop for Antioch (outside his jurisdiction) perpetuated the schism of Meletius.



From the Columbia encyclopedia:
Meletius, Saint

(m l ´sh s) (KEY) , d. 381, Catholic bishop, leader of the Meletian faction in the Antiochene schism. Meletius became (361) Catholic patriarch after the Arians deposed Eustathius. The Eustathians, however, opposed him for his Arian sponsorship and the Arians, who grew unhappy with him, secured his exile. A party of Meletians arose to defend him. Lucifer of Cagliari deepened the schism by uncanonically consecrating Paulinus from the Eustathian ranks, thereby giving Antioch two Catholic bishops. Meletius returned in 378, but Rome favored Paulinus, and the parties would not unite. Meletius died while presiding at the First Council of Constantinople, which sought to end the schism by electing Flavian of Antioch successor to his see. He was the teacher of St. John Chrysostom. Feast: Feb. 12. He is sometimes confused with his contemporary, Meletius of Lycopolis, who organized the widespread Meletian Schism in Egypt, which was aligned with the Arians.


As far as ‘Lucifer’ being Satan’s proper name—there is no evidence of such a belief before the 3rd century AD. Hebrew and other ancient lore, including apocryphal scriptures found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, show that ‘Samael’ was considered to be the original name of the leader 'Satan'—which makes more sense, since the ‘-el’ ending is indicative of the angelic host.

The idea of the morning star, being by default a fallen angel only, is a misconception, as well—borne out in the canon itself. Refer to – Job 38:7; Revelation 2:28 and 22:16. It is not the idea of just being brilliant or shining that is important in Isaiah 14—it is more to do with being ‘proud’, boasting of self, and choosing man’s wisdom (which is foolishness to God) over God’s wisdom. It is a key point to understanding the lesson presented in the account of the fall of Nebuchadnezzar as written in Daniel chapter 4.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
Nebacaneezer was called Lucifer because his kingdom would fall, just as the morning star would

No, it was about pride.
The morning star is representative of a kingdom--the earthly kingdom of gentiles.

This kingdom has been ruled over under the flags of Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome--but all the kings were destined to fall--however the kingdom itself, remains. It is the world. And the last King will never fall--who is, of course, our LORD and Savior.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
--Revelation 22:16 KJV

He is both the king of Israel as well as king over all the kings--all the earth. So there is the kingdom (the star) of David (the remnant of Israel), and the kingdom of the gentiles (or the 'nations').

He will set the 'church of Thyatira' to reign (under Him) over the 'nations':

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
--Revelation 2:26-28 KJV

The 'church of Philadelphia' will be set over the kingdom of David:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
--Revelation 3:7-8 KJV



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by helen670

Music can be used for good and bad/bring Joy or hatred..........Lyrics of songs can have a great impact on people.........(backmasking as in the famous song by "Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zeppelin....
listen to it here..Reverse speech~
Oh good grief!
Helen, don't let your good heart and it's light be seen as darkness!

True enough, music can be used for good and bad, joy/hatred--but the source of the determination is not the creator of the music, but rather the listener.

It is not what goes into our bodies that defiles, but rather what comes out of our heart. Matthew 15:18

And all things are pure to one who is pure.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. --Titus 1:15

We are to discern, not condemn, especially about things which are based in assumption. We are to 'judge righteous judgment' not of 'the flesh' John 7:24 --striving toward becoming one of 'those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. ' Hebrews 5:14

Besides all that, it is slanderous to promote such false ideas about people whom you don't even know--based on the religious leaders 'conviction' and poor judgment about such nonsense as 'backmasking.'

It is more than ridiculous to believe that any musical artist, or otherwise, is truly out to sway their listeners to Satan by recording things backward in their music. Anyone who knows anything about musical composition would confirm that it would be next to impossible to create something that is coherent both frontwards and backwards and still qualify as 'music'--and while many people do not like the rock genre of music that, by no means, disqualifies it as music.

And as far as subliminal messages go, they are not effective covertly delivered in the opposite direction of normal patterns of speech and hearing. That's a pointless contention that is nothing more than religious BS--and shame on you for believing it and promoting it! God's not leading that kind of propaganda, that's man-made and proof that the malignant evil in this world is not 'Satan' but mankind, himself and his narrow perception and foolish vanity in self-created knowledge and attachment to duality.

Have you ever listened to that song frontwards? Or read the lyrics?

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. --Proverbs 18:13 KJV

The true power to any song lies in its lyrics (Death and life are in the power of the tongue), not things heard in a garbled mixture of voices and sounds.

'Here are the lyrics, from the official Led Zeppelin site, for you to examine:


Stairway To Heaven
(Page/Plant)

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows, if the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook, there's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who stand looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the May queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven.


What is this saying? Follow the devil? I think not. It says, basically, that there is a choice between two paths, and that we all must choose one or the other in this world.

One holds with ideas such as


  • we can buy our way into heaven if we have enough money or riches
  • the 'piper' will lead us to reason if we call the tune (as opposed to being called)

Which is the path that can be seen and taken by following the 'may queen' who 'wears white and shines bright light'. Venus, plain and simple (which would be, for Jews, represented as Esther who is honored by the feast of Purim and celebrated as a time of deliverance, or, for christians, believing that Jesus's mother was the 'co redemptrix' and somehow had a hand in our salvation necessary for success)

The other path is represented by ideas such as:

  • that the truth will come if we receive it from within
  • we are all one and one is all
  • better to be a rock instead of rolling (like a ship on a stormy lake, perhaps, or a double-minded man?!?)

This is the path that is found by listening very hard--to be called by truth.

Two truths that are undeniable:
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
AND
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.


Nebuchadnezzar's son had 'a sign on the wall'--the words of which truly had a double meaning, not for him, but for us.

Now, I won't presume to know what the writers of this song think, feel, and believe--but from the rest of their work, they don't seem to be particularly inclined toward evil in any way. Certainly it is not proof of anything to go by the rumors that always circulate about those who have achieved 'success'--most envious of the money, but no doubt, to a musician, 'success' would be more measured in whether or not they feel they were able to share and spread their spirit with others, through their music. There's no reason to believe that any one person has more beauty within themselves to share with others, than any other person.

And IMO, it's very 'evil' to judge such a gift as being from 'satan' instead of God. Basically blaspheming the holy spirit.

Your link that you listed for a reference about evil is not in alignment with scripture, in the final analysis.


more here~wher does evil come from

It sounds good, sure--but where does evil truly come from? According to the bible?

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
--Isaiah 45:5-12 KJV



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
I think the bible gives a pretty good explanation as to who lucifer was. I dont think we can know for sure the exact day or year he fell from heaven but from what I have gathered from reading the bible, Lucifer did not fall from heaven until after the creation.

EC


Lucifer wanted to be like GOD, and sinned against GOD, and then was ejected from heaven.

What is GOD?

GOD of Creation.

To be like GOD, Lucifer would have had to have created something seperate or part of the original creation.

Lucifer's punishment was being cast down to what Lucifer had made unpure, what Lucifer had infultrated.

We are under Lucifer's dominion according to the bible.

This all seems to add up to a limited amount of conclusions.

We don't get out of this, until Lucifer does. Lucifer doesn't get out of this without our forgiveness. Seems fitting. Everyone learns something.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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'The anointed cherub which covereth' from Ezekiel chapter 28:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
--Ezekiel 28:12-15 KJV

This 'King of Tyre' was also Lucifer--the serpent in the tree--the one set in the Garden of Eden to guard the tree of the knowledge--his sin was not guarding but doing as he thought to do--then his punishment was to stand 'guard' over the tree of life--that is the Spirit of Life within us--our skin is what hides this from us.

Christ is also anointed--when He died and Satan was cast out of heaven, he was no longer required as guard for the Spirit, the tree of Life--Christ took His place with the flaming sword, the only difference being that now we can approach that tree of life--through Christ. Because Christ is the Spirit of God within human flesh--the way was no longer prohibited to us.

There are 'two anointed' which stand beside the God of this world--one to the right (Christ) and one to the left (Lucifer/flesh/the serpent). This is from the book of Zechariah.

So if we reduce all these symbologies to their simplest meanings, we have:

Life--Christ--Spirit--forgiveness--good
Death--the serpent--Flesh--sin--evil

That's about the long and short of the whole bible. It's not complicated, but it is very deeply hidden.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38


There are 'two anointed' which stand beside the God of this world--one to the right (Christ) and one to the left (Lucifer/flesh/the serpent). This is from the book of Zechariah.


I'm in no way contradicting you, but would this be a trinity?



That's about the long and short of the whole bible. It's not complicated, but it is very deeply hidden.


Agreed with the entire post. Faith takes the complication of it away.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by queenannie38


There are 'two anointed' which stand beside the God of this world--one to the right (Christ) and one to the left (Lucifer/flesh/the serpent). This is from the book of Zechariah.


I'm in no way contradicting you, but would this be a trinity?

I don't see it that way--the 'trinity' is a concept found only outside of the bible, in definition. And that 'definition' says that the three in the trinity are one--and equals.
With God in the middle and two anointed on either side (good and evil) it would be more like the sides together make up the whole in the middle--but yet we know that the 'whole is greater than the sum of it's parts'--in this case the two sides, light and dark, become light even in the combination, because light (good) is the natural overcomer of dark (evil.)




Agreed with the entire post. Faith takes the complication of it away.
Doesn't it, though? Beauty.



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. -- 2 Peter 1:19

. . . from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. -- Revelation 2:28

It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. -- Revelation 2 2:16

from Some Light on Lucifer by Ina Belderis


Lucifer: From Latin, Lux, Light, and Fero, to bear Light-bearer



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Alternatively Lucifer rose up in anger against the tyranny of a cruel and unforgiving God, having seen through his falsehods and lies. However God was able to crush the rebellion and cast Lucifer down into the ultimate prison. For his final act of revenge God had his holy book describe Lucifer as the source of all evil, blaming him for Gods own actions in making the world a cruel and unjust place.

The moral of the story? History is always written by the victor!



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by alienaddicted
So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. -- 2 Peter 1:19

. . . from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. -- Revelation 2:28

It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. -- Revelation 2 2:16

from Some Light on Lucifer by Ina Belderis


Lucifer: From Latin, Lux, Light, and Fero, to bear Light-bearer

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
--2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
--Genesis 1:16-18 KJV

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
--Matthew 6:23-24 KJV

Don't get the two different lights confused. One is greater and is pure light. The other, lesser, light is darkness.




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