Proof Crop Circles are not hoaxes!

And that's cool, yo

(And you have no idea how stupid "yo" sounds with an English accent. No, really)

Because there isn't absolute, irrefutable evidence that every single instance of cropcirclinisation (oh, I love making up words, yes I do) has been due to human actions, this does leave the door open for several other possibilities.

Admittedly, my gut response is "But I betcha none of 'em are related to aliens". That bias does obviously cloud my impressions and judgment, and that's something I'll readily admit (if only because I've never considered 100 eyewitness accounts to necessarily be absolute proof of anything, let alone alien activity). On the other hand, I would love to see other instances, pieces of evidence and the like, that could shed light on the subject.

I do look forward to hearing more

Oh yes, we all have our unique bias when we form opinions, including myself, and that's perfect, that's what we have to work with. I have been educated as a scientist, so I have that bias, but then suddenly 5 years ago I head some 'strange', unexplainable (at least with current scientific knowledge) experiences that changed my point of view about many things in life. These experiences are a long story, anyway, the last years I have been practicing and teaching Reiki, which is a 'biofield energy therapy', as described by the National Institutes of Health (NIH, USA; nccam.nih.gov.... Can you imagine, a scientist doing that? (in fact, some scientific research has been done, and is still done, into Reiki, and it is offered as complementary therapy in many hospitals). I understand that many people do not believe in it, but through my personal experience, and the experiences from the people I work with, I know for sure that it is valid. I believe that personal experience is often worth more than a thousand words. And hey, if I would be the only one in the world with a certain personal experience maybe I would consider the possibility of being 'weird' , but if thousands (or millions) of people have similar experiences, it is validated even more.

Oh, this is a bit off topic, anyway at some level it is related to the topic

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

Originally posted by Whiterabbit29
I have recently just watched an Unsolved Mysteries Documentary on UFO's I'm not to sure what year it was from so maybe this is old news!

wait you mean to tell me, that you are relaying information that was broadcast on network telivision back to this forum? were you born yesaterday. tv is one big lie. have you ever seen a garffiti piece in new york city. from a distance the entire production looks cosmic. not of this earth. but upon closer inspection you can see the many flaws and covered up mistakes. same goes for crop circles. there are production companies the specialize in producing them.

Originally posted by PKD
[ same goes for crop circles. there are production companies the specialize in producing them.

Yup, there are.

But just as a TV show isn't proof, neither is the presence of a company able to reproduce the phenomenon...

Originally posted by PKD

Originally posted by Whiterabbit29
I have recently just watched an Unsolved Mysteries Documentary on UFO's I'm not to sure what year it was from so maybe this is old news!

wait you mean to tell me, that you are relaying information that was broadcast on network telivision back to this forum? were you born yesaterday. tv is one big lie. have you ever seen a garffiti piece in new york city. from a distance the entire production looks cosmic. not of this earth. but upon closer inspection you can see the many flaws and covered up mistakes. same goes for crop circles. there are production companies the specialize in producing them.

In my opinion we should always be careful not to generalize, okay, we know that there are groups that make crop circles, but is that evidence that ALL crop circles are made by these groups? No.

There are charity web sites that are frauds, but is that evidence that ALL charity web sites are frauds? No.

Should I continue?

Originally posted by space_friend12

Originally posted by PKD

Originally posted by Whiterabbit29
I have recently just watched an Unsolved Mysteries Documentary on UFO's I'm not to sure what year it was from so maybe this is old news!

wait you mean to tell me, that you are relaying information that was broadcast on network telivision back to this forum? were you born yesaterday. tv is one big lie. have you ever seen a garffiti piece in new york city. from a distance the entire production looks cosmic. not of this earth. but upon closer inspection you can see the many flaws and covered up mistakes. same goes for crop circles. there are production companies the specialize in producing them.

In my opinion we should always be careful not to generalize, okay, we know that there are groups that make crop circles, but is that evidence that ALL crop circles are made by these groups? No.

There are charity web sites that are frauds, but is that evidence that ALL charity web sites are frauds? No.

Should I continue?

Ok, well then by this logic, some graffiti artists that paint buildings and trains are aliens from other planets or reptilians. I'm just using common sense here. Seriously. Unsolved Mysteries is always good for a laugh. Not that some of the stories they're dealing with are naturally occuring phenomena, but the spooky synthesized audio back drops that use to dredge up fear in the veiwer. Why couldn't they play something less spooky? The whole concept has some questionable methods. Obviously horror films are designed to scare the veiwer. Unsolved mysteries are reporting on real occurences, but make them seem fictional through their hollywoodesque production methods.

Originally posted by PKD
Ok, well then by this logic, some graffiti artists that paint buildings and trains are aliens from other planets or reptilians.

Who knows?

Seriously, in my opinion it is limiting to have a "black/white" worldview. Ideas like: "It has to be 100% this, or it has to be 100% that, but it can not be both this and that" are narrow minded points of view I believe. But that is just my humble opinion

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

Originally posted by PKD

Ok, well then by this logic, some graffiti artists that paint buildings and trains are aliens from other planets or reptilians.

That's not logical, no. By the logic presented, "some of the graffiti cannot be attributed to any known artists", would be the conclusion.

I'm just using common sense here. Seriously. Unsolved Mysteries is always good for a laugh.

Nobody is disputing that Unsolved Mysteries isn't exactly the beacon of logic and scientific veracity

What's being disputed is your implication that "If it appears on that show, it must be false", and "companies exist which make them, which means they all must be false".

Neither is a truism

The human species often has a tendency to be quite 'arrogant' (not saying that includes all individuals). We think we know it all, we think we have evolved into the maximum that humanity will ever see. Personally, I am very happy to know that we still have a long and interesting way to go as a species , and that much (not saying all) of the 'weird' or 'paranormal' stuff of the present will one day be mainstream scientific fact, just as lasers, microwaves, radio, etc. would have been 'paranormal' for our ancestors

"We, including scientists, have considered ourselves as sort of the pinnacle of evolution," noted lead researcher Bruce Lahn, a University of Chicago geneticist whose studies appear in Friday's edition of the journal Science.

"There's a sense we as humans have kind of peaked," agreed Greg Wray, director of Duke University's Center for Evolutionary Genomics. "A different way to look at is it's almost impossible for evolution not to happen."

Genes Show Signs the Human Brain Is Still Evolving, New Research Suggests

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

Complex designs? Radiation? Microwaves? Seriously people, we are communicating with each other via internet by means of typing on a keyboard, displayed on a multicolor screen via a fiber optic wire. And a few crop cirles come about and everyone is itching to proclaim alien involvement?

So where are these links and sources by the way?

Originally posted by Frosty
Complex designs? Radiation? Microwaves? Seriously people, we are communicating with each other via internet by means of typing on a keyboard, displayed on a multicolor screen via a fiber optic wire. And a few crop cirles come about and everyone is itching to proclaim alien involvement?


So where are these links and sources by the way?

Although this is not the link to my original source, which by the way I did offer to post earlier in the form of a bit torrent link, it does basically show and explain the fact of how the structure of the crop had been changed at a microscopic level within crop circle formations it also explains some other anomolies that are found.


www.lovely.clara.net...

If you have any explanations as to how farmer Giles and his plank of wood achieved this I would be interested in your theory! I also haven't mentioned any ET involvement apart from the fact that my original source is a program on UFO's I have no idea how some of these formations are formed my original point is that they are not all hoaxes or man-made I guess ET involvement is a possibility but I have no facts to back this up!

The crystalline structure in a plant will change over time.

Originally posted by Whiterabbit29
I have no idea how some of these formations are formed my original point is that they are not all hoaxes or man-made I guess ET involvement is a possibility but I have no facts to back this up!

I think that's why a few of us were misled by the thread title...which does kind of imply that none of 'em are hoaxed, yanno?

It's obvious that many (most?) are blatant hoaxes. This has been proven. There are some though, that remain in the category of "not sure, we can't prove they were hoaxed".

I'm skeptical, yes. I just keep falling back to thinking that in this case, the absence of proof that they were hoaxes is not proof that they weren't hoaxed, either.

Originally posted by Frosty
The crystalline structure in a plant will change over time.

I'm slightly confused as to what you mean by this statement. If you take 2 samples, one from inside the formation, and one from outside it, analyze them both under an electron microscope and there microscopic structure is found to be different this has nothing to do with time!

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
It's obvious that many (most?) are blatant hoaxes. This has been proven. There are some though, that remain in the category of "not sure, we can't prove they were hoaxed".

Where has it been proven that most of them are hoaxes and what makes them so obviously hoaxed to you?

Even better questions to ask are: Why are the formations that are not hoaxes appearing at all? What is their purpose?

Who made them really doesn't matter

St John wrote of the creative moment or original scission, ‘ In the beginning was the Word’ (or in Greek, logos, meaning a three-term proportion), ‘… and the Word was with God’ (the phrase ‘with God’ can also be read ‘in God’) ‘ … and the Word was God’. Looking closely at these three phase one can see that they intuitively describe the geometric implications of the Golden Proportion:

In the beginning was the Word,

And the Word was with(in) God,

And the Word was God."

Emphasis mine

link

I would even go so far as to alter that last line to read "And the Word was Geometry"

The Freddy Silva website posted above is also a good starting point for those truely interested in this subject and his book "Secrets in the Fields" comes highly recommended.

peace








[edit on 14-9-2005 by StickyG]

Originally posted by StickyG
Where has it been proven that most of them are hoaxes and what makes them so obviously hoaxed to you?

May I very respectfully ask...did you read the whole thread?

Did you click any of the links to those who have either admitted doing it themselves, or recreated the exact circles?

Who made them really doesn't matter

Yes it does

If they are made by an alien life-form, or a secret race, I'd think that has far greater implications than if Tom, Dick and Harriet have been making 'em, surely?

Originally posted by Whiterabbit29

Originally posted by Frosty
The crystalline structure in a plant will change over time.

I'm slightly confused as to what you mean by this statement. If you take 2 samples, one from inside the formation, and one from outside it, analyze them both under an electron microscope and there microscopic structure is found to be different this has nothing to do with time!

Yes it does, because over time these plants are exposed to the elements. And I don't see how this is proof of alien involvement or anything other than a difference in crystalline structure amongst plants. He never stated that the control plants are taken from outside the circle and never mentions any specifics. Very generic.

I know someone here was asking for links to info about the radiation and whatnot.. so here you go....

paranormal.about.com...

Number and complexity Some researchers contend that crop formations are too numerous and too complex to all have been made by humans. This may be the weakest argument against them being manmade as it naively underestimates the abilities and ingenuity of some people.

Placement. While most crop circles can be found in readily accessible fields, some are not.

(Click the link to read more)


Everything listed above is evidence of true crop circles... Debunkers in here please tell me how you would make a compass go crazy? And make changes so that the electro-magnetic readings would read 10x higher than normal? What about the blown nodes? The unbendable plants that were bent????

(edit for large quote)

[edit on 9/14/2005 by Amorymeltzer]

Also taken from paranormal.about.com...

Physical Side Effects

Extremes of physical effects on people who enter crop circles have been reported. While some feel elation, others feel ill effects, including "nausea, headaches, dizziness, tingling sensations, pains and giddiness." Some claim their menstrual cycles have been affected while others say they have literally been knocked off their feet.

People aren't the only ones affected. According to "Crop Circles: A Deeper Look" from the Foundation for Paranormal Research, "one researcher allowed his dog to enter a newly formed circle. The dog became violently ill and vomited for about an hour afterward. Sheep in the area go into a frenzy."

Another witness testified: "During a third visit into the main Chiseldon formation in 1996 I encountered a couple who couldn't understand why their normally placid cat suddenly became agitated the moment he crossed the threshold of the formation. He protested and looked around frantically for a way out. Once outside he was back to his normal self."

Highly Intricate Mathematical Design

Euclidean geometry. Some researchers contend that certain crop circle formations contain sophisticated geometry that an ordinary hoaxer most likely would not even understand. Gerald S. Hawkins, former Chairman of the astronomy department at Boston University, says that he detected relationships between crop circles and Euclidean geometry. According to an article at "The Crop Circular", "Hawkins found that he could use the principles of Euclidean geometry to prove four theorems derived from the relationships among the areas depicted in crop circles. He also discovered a fifth, more general theorem, from which he could derive the other four. 'This theorem involves concentric circles which touch the sides of a triangle, and as the [triangle] changes shape, it generates the special crop-circle geometries,' he says. Hawkins could find no reference to such a theorem in the works of Euclid or in any other book that he consulted. In July 1995, however, 'the crop-circle makers... showed knowledge of this fifth theorem.'"

Diatonic ratios. At least one article claims that the circle makers, whoever or whatever they are, have been encoding within crop circles diatonic ratios - how notes in music are related to each other. "Musicians have used the musical notes of the first octave to encode messages in their music," the article says. "For example, the last fugue of Bach keeps repeating notes B-A-C-H. The Circlemakers, since 1988, have also been encoding messages by including diatonic ratios, and hence sets of notes. When geometries are tested against lists of initials, the code appears to fit one and only one list: the first 25 presidents of the Society for Psychical Research of London." A reason why the circle makers might identify these people is not offered in the article. "Music and Harmonics" at Crop Circle Research.com offers additional information and some sound samples.

Sacred geometry. "The Sacred Geometry of Crop Circles" says that so-called sacred geometry is evident in crop formations and reflect "the universe, its pure forms and dynamic equilibriums shared a higher purpose: the attainment of spiritual wholeness through self-reflection, thereby giving structural insight into the workings of the inner self. When analyzing crop circle forms through the precise and unalterable practice of sacred geometry one cannot help but appreciate that a mind of scholarly intelligence is involved. That these symbols are occurring primarily in wheat, the very symbol of the Earth Mother, is significant in itself. Perhaps they are here to draw us as a race together by this interaction with our symbol of life?"

Originally posted by noslenwerd

While most crop circles can be found in readily accessible fields, some are not. Some have been found within restricted areas, according to "Peculiarities of Crop Circles" - "numerous accounts of crop circles appearing inside military installations that are fenced off (quite securely!) from the surrounding area.

This is proof of nothing. Unless they're implying that such a location is absolute evidence that (for example) military jokers themselves could simply not have been responsible. And it's obviously not proof of that, either.

The rest is using an awful lot of "seems" and "mays"; I'll leave the radiation parts to those who know more about 'em

Everything listed above is evidence of true crop circles...

No - it's evidence that some circles can't be explained by what we've seen so far from hoaxers.

Even allowing for that, what about the folk who've admitted - and repeated - their hoaxed circles?