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Proof Crop Circles are not hoaxes!

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posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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Frosty, unless these artist are from Chernobyl how do you explain the radiation left behind


There are a dozen explanations for this, especially if they are, as many suspect, deliberate hoaxes........ I'd imagine that a few handfuls of low radioactive flakes sprinkled around could easily get the job done, and cheap to purchase via the internet...




posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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All these things can be recreated easily enough, I remember one griup of science students from a university in the UK (can't remember where)...did an experiment to see if it was possible to add the little details. They used a device to spread small metal scratchings across the made crop circle. The whole thing was done in one evening.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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So does this "proof" contradict the many people who've admitted making "fake" crop circles?

Or are those faked examples not part of this discussion?



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Hi,

I post some images for those who have not seen a lot of crop circles.
Some of these are huge. The parallel lines are tractor tracks,
so that you have an idea of the sizes.

Silbury Hill 2004


Alien 2002


Milk Hill 2001


Stonehenge 2002


Windmill Hill 2002




[edit on 9-9-2005 by space_friend12]



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Wow, those are beautiful crop circles. I havent seen most of those before. I am leaning towards these things NOT being man-made.

And about the radiation thing, I cant imagine why people would fake crop circles then take the time to scatter about radiation particles or set off a radiation bomb. What would be the point for hoaxers to add radiation?
Also, many of the nodes on the stock exhibit enlargement of nodes where scientists say it was caused by radiation. Hand planting radiation wouldnt do this. It would have to come from a type of micro-wave source, imo.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by ResinLA
Wow, those are beautiful crop circles. I havent seen most of those before. I am leaning towards these things NOT being man-made.



Huh.

I looked at those and took 'em to be ample proof that they were absolutely man-made.

Specially the one accompanying the alien "self portrait".



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 06:06 PM
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I think it's fair to say some crop circles are man made, while others are not. What makes them is the question. I highly doubt humans could have made that alien figure crop circle. Radiation levels, bent and blown out stems = NOT HUMAN



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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lol im sry but that one with the alien is extremely funny cause its obviously man-made, the others are PROBLY not IF they are real, but im sticking with the demon theory, the alien crop circle is either demons riduculing us or is man made



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Huh.

I looked at those and took 'em to be ample proof that they were absolutely man-made.

Specially the one accompanying the alien "self portrait".


That is good, we all have our opinion, and you gave yours


Do you have scientific evidence to backup your claim that they are man-made?

Something about geometry and crop circles:



Several years ago, astronomer Gerald S. Hawkins, former Chairman of the astronomy department at Boston University, noticed that some of the most visually striking of the crop-circle patterns embodied geometric theorems that express specific numerical relationships among the areas of various circles, triangles, and other shapes making up the patterns.
..
..
Curiously, Hawkins could find no reference to such a theorem in the works of Euclid or in any other book that he consulted. When he challenged readers of Science News and The Mathematics Teacher to come up with his unpublished theorem, given only the four variations, no one reported success.In July 1995, however, "the crop-circle makers . . . showed knowledge of this fifth theorem," Hawkins reports. Among the dozens of circles surreptitiously laid down in the wheat fields of England, one pattern fit Hawkins' theorem based on the stringent definitions, on the rules established by the circles over the period 1980 to the present.

www.lovely.clara.net...
www.sciencenews.org...


And by the way, the alien is interesting indeed, several people seperately decoded the binary message contained in the disk, it says:


"Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES. Much PAIN but still time. (Damaged Word). There is GOOD out there.We OPpose DECEPTION. Conduit CLOSING (BELL SOUND)".

www.cropcircleresearch.com...




[edit on 9-9-2005 by space_friend12]



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by ResinLA
Wow, those are beautiful crop circles. I havent seen most of those before. I am leaning towards these things NOT being man-made.



Huh.

I looked at those and took 'em to be ample proof that they were absolutely man-made.

Specially the one accompanying the alien "self portrait".



You gutta be kidding me. Do you not see how perfect and complex those creations are? For the however many photos there are of such complex circles there are, that would mean a lot of man power would be needed to make such things.
Have you not considered the fact that there would have to be someone flying above the field, guiding the people on the ground to see if they are making the circle properly? For humans to do such detailed creations on the ground, it would take a lot of time. Not overnight like most crop circles are discovered. That would mean they would need aerial guidance for each moment they wore making the circle. Something tells me this isn't the case.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by ResinLA
You gutta be kidding me. Do you not see how perfect and complex those creations are? For the however many photos there are of such complex circles there are, that would mean a lot of man power would be needed to make such things.
Have you not considered the fact that there would have to be someone flying above the field, guiding the people on the ground to see if they are making the circle properly? For humans to do such detailed creations on the ground, it would take a lot of time. Not overnight like most crop circles are discovered. That would mean they would need aerial guidance for each moment they wore making the circle. Something tells me this isn't the case.


I dont agree because you dont need aerial help to make a geometric shape you need a compass a string can be used of coarse,try it at home.

The tractor tracks are to conveniet for my liking as well,you`ll notice with crop circles you`ll never see them(well i`m yet to)in a normal natural field because that would leave tracks of the hoaxer`s would be a good assumption but still its only an assumption.

The time it takes to make one and when they were made(over night?)is another assumption in most cases i`ve heard.I`ve had to study pattern development for my trade and i`d bet with practice i could make a pretty impressive crop circle myself.With strings and boards.

BUT i`m not saying out rightly they are all fake and man made and i`m still interested in the topic,i would`nt say i`m a complete fence sitter i`ve still got a big toe resting on it



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by gps777
The tractor tracks are to conveniet for my liking as well,you`ll notice with crop circles you`ll never see them(well i`m yet to)in a normal natural field because that would leave tracks of the hoaxer`s would be a good assumption but still its only an assumption.


The crop circles do appear in field or places without tractor tracks, although they are not as much known as the ones in the UK.



In Japan a circle appeared in a rice paddy field and the following morning thousands of gallons of water had also vanished - equal to the volume of the crop circle. Snow circles have even been photographed in the mountains of Afghanistan, with no footsteps leading to them. You can't tell me that hoaxers are driving around in water tankers or lowering themselves out of helicopters. These aren't simple circles either. The snow circles in Afghanistan were arranged in a quintuplet, similar to some of the 'Celtic cross' designs seen in Southern England.

www.cropcircleresearch.com...




Sometimes they happen in the rain, yet not a mud print is to be found. Or they are in a field with no tractor lines, so there would be no access without cutting paths through the crop, yet no paths exist.

www.theconversation.org...




You would have to enter a field in the pitch dark and create a formation, sometimes in 5ft high rape with no entry to the field as rape has no tractor tramlines.

archive.anomalies.net...




Many formations and plain circular "grapeshots" often occur in the middle of fields far from any tramlines without any disturbance of the surrounding crop (which is detectable). Good example is the 1996 formation in Basingstoke, Hampshire where a circle with a ring was put inside the middle of an organic oilseed rape field that had no tramlines at all and the crop was 4-5 feet tall!

www.dreamscape.com...




Numerous accounts of crop circles appearing inside military installations that are fenced off (quite securely!) from the surrounding area. Most noteably in Wiltshire along the Salisbury Plain.

dev.cropcirclenews.com...



Originally posted by gps777
The time it takes to make one and when they were made(over night?)is another assumption in most cases i`ve heard.I`ve had to study pattern development for my trade and i`d bet with practice i could make a pretty impressive crop circle myself.With strings and boards.


Ah, for example the giant Milk Hill formation (~1500 ft wide), see above in earlier post, appeared overnight. During the summer in the UK professional photographers fly over these areas daily, so they know exactly which formations appear overnight.



Here's something to ponder, if this formation was man made allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness the construction time left should be around four hours. Given that there are over 400 circles some of which span approx 70ft in diameter that would mean that one of those circles would need to be created every 30 seconds and that's not even allowing any time for the surveying, purely flattening, this formation pushes the envelope and that's a MASSIVE understatement... my brain hurts!

www.circlemakers.org...






[edit on 9-9-2005 by space_friend12]

[edit on 9-9-2005 by space_friend12]



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Some said the Blair Witch was a hoax and it was real



Im kidding



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Thanx for the links Space Friend,dont take offense what i`ve read of them has`nt changed my stance.The key word with my personal feeling on this is that ì`m skeptical not a skeptic.

I dont know what it would take to change my views be it strengthened or lessened concerning crop circles.Maybe if i spent 10 20 years with hands on research of my own but i`m no where near that interested in it.

If i sound unreasonable to you or anyone else don`t blame me blame the hoaxer`s thats the disappointing aspect of most topic`s discussed.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:14 AM
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yup, if it wasnt for stupid people we'd find the truth by now lol



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:56 AM
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anyone ever entertain the possibility

that a microwave beam [ or similar ] from a satellite is doing the deed ?

it wouldn't account for pre-satellite circles

but it could account for some of the newer more elaborate ones

why ? who knows...we're flooded with disinfo all the time anyways

so adding another red herring into the mix would not surprise me



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by space_friend12
Do you have scientific evidence to backup your claim that they are man-made?


Despite the burden of proof not actually being on me (you're claiming they're alien-made; thus the burden should actually be yours), yes, I do actually have some evidence. I'm not sure how scientific you want it to be though.

Ideally, you need to provide scientific evidence that these circles are not man-made. It's obvious that they can be hoaxed, as apparent in the following:

First, an admission of guilt:


when crop circle hoaxers Doug Bower and Dave Chorley came forward and subsequently fooled cereologist Pat Delgado, who had declared an example of their handiwork to be beyond any hoaxer's ability...


From here

Welcome to more guilty parties


Now, are we to believe that every one of these admitted hoaxers is lying and/or a disinformation specialist?

The "circlemakers.org" site is a fun read.



Something about geometry and crop circles:


When I read the articles from Hawkins, this is what piqued my interest:


Hawkins found that he could use the principles of Euclidean geometry to prove four theorems derived from the relationships among the areas depicted in these patterns...He also discovered a fifth, more general theorem, from which he could derive the other four (see diagram). "This theorem involves concentric circles which touch the sides of a triangle, and as the [triangle] changes shape, it generates the special crop-circle geometries," he says.


(emphasis mine)

From Science News article

If we're going to use an article, it's prudent to keep the whole article in context.

With this in mind, it appears that there's far more to support the notion of hoaxing, than there is of actual ET activity.

So. Bring on the evidence, I say!





[edit on 10-9-2005 by Tinkleflower]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by space_friend12
Do you have scientific evidence to backup your claim that they are man-made?


Despite the burden of proof not actually being on me (you're claiming they're alien-made; thus the burden should actually be yours), yes, I do actually have some evidence. I'm not sure how scientific you want it to be though.


Can you please quote where I claimed that the crop circles are alien-made?

As soon as you finish reading this thread and realize that I never made that claim, I would like to add that my personal opinion is, after having read/heard views from both sides for years, that most likely many of the crop circles are man-made, but there are also many that can still not be explained, not by Doug and Dave, who by the way created the most confusing and contradicting stories ever heard (but you can find that info doing some research), not by graduate students from Cambridge, not by other circle makers.

By the way, I have a B.Sc. in Horticulture, a M.Sc. in Plantbreeding and Crop protection and a PhD in molecular genetics, and my advise to you is, don't discard the physical evidence found in plant samples too easily



And something else Tinkleflower, you state:


Originally posted by Tinkleflower
If we're going to use an article, it's prudent to keep the whole article in context.

As you can see below, I DID cite the whole article, that you so kindly provided a link too. Following the rules of ATS I didn't quote the whole article though. I give you the link, so that you can read the WHOLE thing, what more do you want?
I´m sorry to see that you din't get the point from the Hawkin's quote, maybe you will after reading it again. Well, I'll lend you a helping hand:

1. After studying the patterns he discovered that he could prove four theorems based on the crop circles using the principles of Euclidean geometry.

2. Then he discovered a fifth theorem, from which he could derive the other four, that had never been published, and the scientists consulted could not come up with this fifth theorem (and Hawkins didn't give them the solution). So remember that this fifth theorem was a new discovery by Hawkins, nobody else in the world knew about it. Okay?

3. Then a while later a new crop circle appears that fits Hawkins newly discovered fifth theorem. In my opinion, as a scientist, that lends credibility to the theory that some crop circles are not man-made.


Originally posted by space_friend12
Something about geometry and crop circles:


Several years ago, astronomer Gerald S. Hawkins, former Chairman of the astronomy department at Boston University, noticed that some of the most visually striking of the crop-circle patterns embodied geometric theorems that express specific numerical relationships among the areas of various circles, triangles, and other shapes making up the patterns.
..
..
Curiously, Hawkins could find no reference to such a theorem in the works of Euclid or in any other book that he consulted. When he challenged readers of Science News and The Mathematics Teacher to come up with his unpublished theorem, given only the four variations, no one reported success.In July 1995, however, "the crop-circle makers . . . showed knowledge of this fifth theorem," Hawkins reports. Among the dozens of circles surreptitiously laid down in the wheat fields of England, one pattern fit Hawkins' theorem based on the stringent definitions, on the rules established by the circles over the period 1980 to the present.

www.lovely.clara.net...
www.sciencenews.org...






[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]

[edit on 10-9-2005 by space_friend12]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by space_friend12
Can you please quote where I claimed that the crop circles are alien-made?




I'm dreadfully sorry. Your posts requested that I provide evidence that crop circles are man-made; my assumption (and your implication) was that you believed the opposite. My bad.




By the way, I have a B.Sc. in Horticulture, a M.Sc. in Plantbreeding and Crop protection and a PhD in molecular genetics


I have around 10 years experience working in pharmaceutical research and over 10 years spent as an advocate of (variously) immigrants, illegal residents and survivors of CSA and False Accusation Syndrome. Are we comparing resumes, or am I missing your point? I don't believe I actually dismissed any research relating to plant samples; rather, like you, I made my conclusions based on the matter presented.




As you can see below, I DID cite the whole article, that you so kindly provided a link too.


Because it appeared that you only quoted the part that you thought supported your opinion; the article seems to be a simple statement that whoever did make the crop circles was more than a little familiar with geometry. Sorry, but the excerpt you used missed that part, and it does seem integral to the entire relevance of the article

Ironically, it seems we're actually in agreement about the basic premise:

Many (most, in my mind - many, in yours) of the crop circles are obvious hoaxes, and some seem to defy logical explanation.

We're in agreement here!

I'm just yet to see anything in the way of compelling evidence (or even not-so-compelling evidence) that would indicate ET activity was responsible.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower




By the way, I have a B.Sc. in Horticulture, a M.Sc. in Plantbreeding and Crop protection and a PhD in molecular genetics


I have around 10 years experience working in pharmaceutical research and over 10 years spent as an advocate of (variously) immigrants, illegal residents and survivors of CSA and False Accusation Syndrome. Are we comparing resumes, or am I missing your point? I don't believe I actually dismissed any research relating to plant samples; rather, like you, I made my conclusions based on the matter presented.



Ironically, it seems we're actually in agreement about the basic premise:

Many (most, in my mind - many, in yours) of the crop circles are obvious hoaxes, and some seem to defy logical explanation.

We're in agreement here!

I'm just yet to see anything in the way of compelling evidence (or even not-so-compelling evidence) that would indicate ET activity was responsible.



Yes, as a matter of fact we agree a lot
I told you about my background because with this background, and having read a lot of material on research in crop circle plant samples, I strongly believe that at least some (or many) of the crop circles are not man-made, at least not as is usually explained in main stream media. I didn't mean to say you had discarded any information in this thread, sorry. I just don't have much time right now to present that research here.




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