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Prove to Me Your Claim About Mason's

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posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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OK, I figure there have got to be about a million thread on the subject of the Mason's but what I wanna discuss or rather learn from is from the point of view of the people agianst the Mason's. I personally know a few Mason's and they have all had the ability to prove to me the things that they are saying (along with the Mason's of this thread) in real life. Things that I could see or expierence about the Mason's that would show me that they are not [ put insult here].


So what I am asking is for all the people that are anti-mason, is to tell me something that I can do in reali life that would prove to me their claim on the mason's. Because thus far the only information I have ever recieved was less than believable site, and very odd stories. So feel free to post any idea's, and I am looking forward to seeing any feedback on this idea.




posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Claim:

Masons are involved in a world wide conpsiracy to overthrow legitimate governments and the church.

Evidence:

  1. The leaders of the Girdondists in the French Revolution were masons (contintenal anyway) and Napoleon was a mason (again, continental).
  2. The chiefs of the revolutionary radicals in the american colonies were largely masons (english masons).
  3. Garibaldi and everything he did (again, continental masonry)


Well, thats something like what the evidence would look like for a claim like that.

But even this has serious problems, the radicals in south america and europe are continental masons, not 'regular' masons. And there is no evidence that the institution itself, as opposed to groups of members, was oiling the blades of the guillotine or handing out the black shirts.

Often, when presented with evidence and observations, there are multiple explanations. A dark insidious conspiracy would explain some of these obersevations, but so would something else. Masonry is a relatively secular organization that tries to present men equally, as brothers to each other, and tries to apply rational thought and sensible consideration to the things that men do. In the big picture, this is a very liberal attitude. And hence, in this historical revolutionary period, it perhaps shouldn't come as a surprise that secular, liberal, rationalists, were involved in Masonry. Nor should it require a direct connection between masonry, the institution, and the revolutions that that generation wrought.

And very thankfully wrought, for what its worth. Imagine france with an absolutist monarch, americans with maybe a single representative in the British Parliament, a spain run World Empire, and a shattered italy lorded over by the Papal States. I'm sure some masons would like to take some credit for this, but, really, these things go far beyond mere masonry.


So no matter how good and accurate ones observations are, we still can't say that they willy nilly support any idea, we have to rationally consider those 'evidences' and try to work them out in a greater framework.

And its even worse when you start out with bad and inaccurate observations, or downright falsehoods, to try to demonstrate that any claims are true.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Claim:

Masons are involved in a world wide conpsiracy to overthrow legitimate governments and the church.

Evidence:

  1. The leaders of the Girdondists in the French Revolution were masons (contintenal anyway) and Napoleon was a mason (again, continental).
  2. The chiefs of the revolutionary radicals in the american colonies were largely masons (english masons).
  3. Garibaldi and everything he did (again, continental masonry)




Please explain how the above overthrown governments were "legitimate."

Once you've been able to pull that rabbit out of your hat, we'll discuss any relevant conspiracies...

Presto Monkeys, not just for “abra cadabra” anymore…



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Claim:

Masons are involved in a world wide conpsiracy to overthrow legitimate governments and the church.

Evidence:

  1. The leaders of the Girdondists in the French Revolution were masons (contintenal anyway) and Napoleon was a mason (again, continental).
  2. The chiefs of the revolutionary radicals in the american colonies were largely masons (english masons).
  3. Garibaldi and everything he did (again, continental masonry)


Well, thats something like what the evidence would look like for a claim like that.


But this is based of something historical, I am talking something more involving here and now. I know this sounds impossible, but this only makes the idea that Masonary is not evil (or whatever many other claims my say) more likely due to the fact that I am able to witness Mason's doing something or other. Like fundraisers food drives stuff like that, well you get where I am going with this.




So no matter how good and accurate ones observations are, we still can't say that they willy nilly support any idea, we have to rationally consider those 'evidences' and try to work them out in a greater framework.

Sorry, I may be a little childish but this sounded funny to me, but I completely agree with the idea that we should try to put the pieces of the puzzle together to see the big picture thatn to see a single piece and guess.



And its even worse when you start out with bad and inaccurate observations, or downright falsehoods, to try to demonstrate that any claims are true.


This is partially why I am trying this to see if the sites/videos/books are actually worth reading.Any guy with an idea can pay for his website to be up monthly. Also to try to prove to people that the very source of their information may be flawed and should be re examined to see whether it holds any credibility.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Institutions are made up of individuals. If some of these individuals are bad, it’s not necessarily the whole institution that is at fault.

Government is bad, NO, individuals within the government are bad. (Besides the government is still our last line of defense against the more easily corrupted corporate institutions, and yes in this case I do condemn the whole institution, the whole purpose of a corporation is to maximize profits in the short run = bad.)

Freemasonry is bad, NO, individuals within freemasonry are bad. I sometimes read sites thrashing the entirety of Freemasonry because the Bernardo Brothers were masons; this is just ridiculous and a flaw in logic.

The P2 lodge would be the closest to condemning masonry, but then this was one lodge acting independently, again let’s not condemn the whole institutions.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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The colonists did not "overthrow a legitimate government" they did away with the satellite government that was ruling them. They did nothing to the mother land of Britan.

Legitamate goverments and the church have always tried to overthrow Freemasonry.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by wiggy]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:34 AM
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the whole idea of a conspiracy as old as time still sounds a little cooky to me...I'm sure that much like Christianity/Catholicism has lost a majority of its meaning over 2000 years of human corruption, Freemasonry has suffered the same fate...whether it be for good or evil, and that is whether any of these claims are in fact true.

I'd pretty much need a high-ranking member to show me these things and have some outlandish evidence along with it, but as with most conspiracy theories that hard evidence can never be found, either because it doesn't exist or the powers that be are that damn powerful.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 05:46 AM
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In Britain the Masons are nothing more than a bunch of gangsters and dodgy businessmen doing each other favours. And that's a fact, not a claim.

Kenneth Noye mason

[edit on 26-8-2005 by legion]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 06:58 AM
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You would also have to say besides the p2 lodge, the morgan incident that caused half the american freemasons to resign their membership. Ever drink Captain Morgan's? (slap in his face)

Click for Captain Morgan
Right or wrong his very existence as a Mason hangs upon obedience to the powers immediately set above him. The one unpardonable crime in a Mason is contumacy [insubordination] or disobedience.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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P2 yes,

However Morgan, No body- no proof. Some say he was seen afterwards. I'm affraid it's another unresolved.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

legion are you sure your not generalizing a bit?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by legion
In Britain the Masons are nothing more than a bunch of gangsters and dodgy businessmen doing each other favours. And that's a fact, not a claim.


Actually thats a claim. The FACT is that Noye is just one person, and I challenge you to find any organisation or group of people which is 100% perfect. Unfortunately there are rotten apples in every barrel, and out of 250,000 English freemasons I would expect a few to join for the wrong reasons, or to not live up to the ideals of the Craft. Every year a dozen or so masons are expelled from the Craft for unmasonic activities, and I can assure you Noye is no longer a member. Freemasons who abuse their membership can expect no less.

To claim that freemasonry is 'nothing more than a bunch of gangsters and dodgy businessmen doing each other favours' ignores the aims and ideals of the society and the activities of 99.9% of its members.

Were you aware that freemasons promise to obey the law as part of their obligation?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by pacman
The one unpardonable crime in a Mason is contumacy [insubordination] or disobedience.


How do you know this? My experience of freemasonry is that this is not true.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Please explain how the above overthrown governments were "legitimate."

Jebus annointed them as god kings, duh.




Presto Monkeys, not just for “abra cadabra” anymore…

ABRAXAS!


legion
And that's a fact, not a claim.

Perhap you missed the basis of this thread. You're suposed to make a claim, and then try to support it. Absurdly, you've made a claim, but insisted that 'its a fact', and a ludicrous one at that, that all masons in the UK are criminals. And then you provide a google search about a single guy. Please try again.

pacman
The one unpardonable crime in a Mason is contumacy [insubordination] or disobedience.

Again, make a claim, then present evidence and discuss. Please present the masonic law texts that support this. You can't, because you've never seen any, and you are just going on rumours that you've been told and apparently over-credulously accepted.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by legion
In Britain the Masons are nothing more than a bunch of gangsters and dodgy businessmen doing each other favours. And that's a fact, not a claim.


Actually thats a claim. The FACT is that Noye is just one person, and I challenge you to find any organisation or group of people which is 100% perfect. Unfortunately there are rotten apples in every barrel, and out of 250,000 English freemasons I would expect a few to join for the wrong reasons, or to not live up to the ideals of the Craft. Every year a dozen or so masons are expelled from the Craft for unmasonic activities, and I can assure you Noye is no longer a member. Freemasons who abuse their membership can expect no less.

To claim that freemasonry is 'nothing more than a bunch of gangsters and dodgy businessmen doing each other favours' ignores the aims and ideals of the society and the activities of 99.9% of its members.

Were you aware that freemasons promise to obey the law as part of their obligation?


Being a mason you are obviously completely biased so I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. However I will say that through my own personal experiences, both in business and pleasure, I've met enough masons to know that what I say is true.


df1

posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by legion
Being a mason you are obviously completely biased so I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.

What a cop out. You aren't going to argue because your arguement is absent of facts other than the claims of delusional conspiracy gurus that sell products to the grossly uninformed and naive. You aren't going to argue because you know that all you have are a bunch of claims that have already been debunked and that you will get your nose rubbed in those facts.



However I will say that through my own personal experiences, both in business and pleasure, I've met enough masons to know that what I say is true.

Absolutely amazing, you can self validate your mistaken beliefs just by meeting enough Masons.
.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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How does one prove ANYTHING to a Freemason?

I mean some of the conversations I have had with Freemasons over the last few years are incredible.
Several times I have had conversations with a Mason boss after catching one of his cronies up to no good red-handed and they will at first attempt try to steer the conversation away completely, then when that fails they will try to accuse you of the same thing until you can prove yourself innocent and so on and so on until some really stupid and obvious BS begins flying around the room in an attempt to drown out conversation.
You persist in presenting cold hard undeniable facts to them to be greated with increasing levels of denial and ignorance.
I have had conversations with Mason bosses end on more than one occasion with them saying they have no idea how anything in their department functions as they have people allocated to individual tasks who are responsible for everything, but none of them would be capable of doing what they are accused of and that therefor the matter must be dropped immediatally.


Seriously - how can anyone who is NOT a Freemason believe their bunk?

But that's the whole point, it's not meant to fool Profanes...it's only meant to fool Freemasons so they can stay in their own little world shielded from reality.


[edited baiting and insulting - nygdan]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
How does one prove ANYTHING to a Freemason?
There world view is so contorted that they immediatally exclude any argument against thier faith.
I mean some of the conversations I have had with Freemasons over the last few years are incredible.
Several times I have had conversations with a Mason boss after catching one of his cronies up to no good red-handed and they will at first attempt try to steer the conversation away completely, then when that fails they will try to accuse you of the same thing until you can prove yourself innocent and so on and so on until some really stupid and obvious BS begins flying around the room in an attempt to drown out conversation.
You persist in presenting cold hard undeniable facts to them to be greated with increasing levels of denial and ignorance.
I have had conversations with Mason bosses end on more than one occasion with them saying they have no idea how anything in their department functions as they have people allocated to individual tasks who are responsible for everything, but none of them would be capable of doing what they are accused of and that therefor the matter must be dropped immediatally.
Seems to be the ultimate Freemason cop-out, reality means nothing to these guys, it's all about belief.

In medical terms they can all be described as "pathological liars" because they are mentally incapable of decerning fact from fantasy.
Its really only a matter of how far they will go with their attempts to block out whats happening in the real world around them.

Seriously - how can anyone who is NOT a Freemason believe their bunk?

But that's the whole point, it's not meant to fool Profanes...it's only meant to fool Freemasons so they can stay in their own little world shielded from reality.


Let us start there MrNecros. I am not a mason and would like to be enlightened by these "cold hard undeniable facts". In my book that means evidence. Present some here, without the propaganda and assumptions, and I will gladly discuss them with you and we can draw a conclusion together.

You can read my history of post and observe that I have "knocked upon the door" of a lodge twice, but I have yet to fill out an application. Persuade me from doing this. I have read much on the subject both online and off. I have fallen asleep sifting through the sights you recomend above, and frankly I felt as though I was reading somthing writen by Hitler or another dictator afraid of true freedom of speach and religion.

So present your "cold hard undeniable fact" and explain to me how you jump from point A to point B and I will test the value of your logic, not as a mason but as a concerned citizen, weary of what I might be getting into.

P.S. "they immediatally exclude any argument against thier faith." According to my research "theri faith" is not a topic of discussion in the lodge. Only a belief in a god (whatever name you give him) is required, and the train stops there on this topic. Please try to limit you reponses to facts, I have a highly sensative B.S. detector.

((Yes I know my spelling leaves something to be desired, but I hope that you can overlook that and stick to the facts.))



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
How does one prove ANYTHING to a Freemason?


Well for starters I am not a Freemason. I too along with CowboyKnight would love to see these facts. Your little story had nothing to do with what I would like to be presented by someone such as yourself. Give me something that I can go out and see not some site, or some guys 6 hour video on how the Illuminati Free Masons Reptilians are going to start the NWO.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by The_Final
Give me something that I can go out and see not some site, or some guys 6 hour video on how the Illuminati Free Masons Reptilians are going to start the NWO.


I hope you're not holding your breath...

He's like a gnat at a barbecue... just plain annoying.

I've been trying to get him to back up what he says for over a year now, yet he just keeps posting the same post over and over and over and over and over again, anytime anyone asks about Masonry. He knows better than to actually debate the issue, however, because he just can't.

His claims are ridiculous, and I think he knows it... he just posts the way he does to instigate and make waves.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:23 PM
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Prove to me your claim about mason's is the topic. Show us some PROOF or stop waisting our time. Your lack of a valid response only makes me sway more towards the masons.




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