The End of Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS (was ALL MEMBERS READ)

Not that I'm a Master baiter or anything but America is very divided today. If the topic is political it will be heated and divisive but it need not be hostile. We all could probably control our political rhetoric and live in harmony. We still can be sarcastic can't we?

[edit on 6-12-2005 by polanksi]

I would like to say that I am all for whatever is best for the ATS forum. There would definitely be a lot of flaming going on right now with all of the news headlines in the past 48 hours! However, I do have some of the same reservations about this as I have seen in other posts. I am politically a middle of the road kind of guy, but I call a spade a spade. Meaning that if our president is RED, BLUE, or PLAID(?) and I see something happening that needs to be addressed, I'll speak my mind (I haven't been impressed with any presidential figure or their cabinet since Roosevelt...TEDDY!!!). IF that means that I get booted for it... so be it. My intent is not to disregard the powers that be (or to be designated as a turd, nail, or troll), but I will not censor myself to namby pamby ambiguous statements that MIGHT mean something about someone that is breaking the law or otherwise shafting this country which I happen to love very much. IF I do make a statement about ANYONE or ANYTHING I will be sure to back it up with numerous links and hard evidence! ... and otherwise generally just be a good boy and follow the rules.

hey unmarked, how's it going.

The anti-troll policy was very intense for a while, but has relaxed a lot since this thread started. This thread didn't change T&C as I understand it- it only announced a temporary strict enforcement policy.

It is OK, to the best of my understanding, to be opinionated, to "call 'em as you seem 'em" etc. It is not OK to divert threads in ATS away from conspiracy discussion and towards a political agenda.

You may implicate politicians in conspiracies, you may argue that they are not part of a conspiracy, you may offer your understanding of political situations where they are relevant to the topic of a thread, and in appropriate forums (PTS) you may discuss political ideologies with virtually no restriction. In the right forum, the microphone is all yours on virtually any subject, as long as you don't go over the edge and start swearing, resorting to ad hominems against other members, etc.

Don't change the subject of threads, don't go out of your way to start a flame war, and don't respond in kind if somebody else starts one. A lot of very opinionated members (myself included) manage to be extremely active in political discussion here without recieving warns. So no worries, just give a brief glance at T&C if you're not sure about something.

Springer...

I,m not sure this thread is still being looked at, but I thought this was the most appropriate place to ask this question.

I know it is not permissible to defend oneself when attacked by attacking back. However, is it acceptable to defend oneself without responding in kind?

example:

I made a post on the following site: AGM 86A CRZ MISSLE

in which the following was posted:

original quote by:Apoc Post Number: 2223247
So many closed minded morons on this site.
They live their sorry lives around this premise "Bush Sucks".
They will believe ANYTHING that fits that original sorry belief blindly even if it's obviously crappy, fake animation. Their perception is so blinded by their foundational "Bush Sucks" premise and hate that they will believe ANYTHING and manufacture ANYTHING that supports that foundational belief. By God if somehow it can make Bush look bad, whatever it is, it MUST be true. Mental Midgets indeed.

Well I'm sorry cretins, that's not how intelligent people act. You analyze evidence and facts then make your deductions. You don't twist the evidence, make stuff up, and blindly believe opinion just to support your initial belief.

It's just like the global warming hacks. The create a theory "humans are destroying the planet" and then go out an do all they can to try to find evidence of it, totally ignoring any that goes against their initial theory. Junk science at it's best.

and I responded:

original quote by:TONE23 Post Number: 2223266
What does any of this ATS character assassination have to do with the point at hand?

Not only was it rude but also inaccurate.. most of the people in thread seem to know that its a fake.

I went on to talk about the topic at hand.

I tried to be as polite as possible and I made sure as to not attack him and focused on his points. I did not get a warning, however I am concerned as to where the lines blurr on being able to defend oneself in cases such as these.

After the one and only warning I recieved, which was on another thread sometime ago, before I fully understood the T&C. Now T&C is in my SIG as a constant reminder to keep my standards high.

I know it would be best to just completely ignore those baits and snipes and outright slanderous remarks. I sometimes feel it neccesary defend myself in a way that allows me to voice my disagreement, while at the same time, not even remotely attempting to attack their character(merely the points that were made.)

Everyday I am on here; I am reminded of the ever-narrowing line between objectivity and bias. And I feel that by pointing out their attack in a polite manner, maybe we can teach those that transgress on this policy that; you get alot farther with patience and understanding. I am fully aware of the MODS capability to police the rooms adequately and that it is not my place to "discipline" them. I assure you this is not my intention. I merely wish to do what I can to help raise the standard(in my own, hopefully harmless, manner.) Please also, understand that I DO NOT go out of my way looking for this kind of trouble... Im not trying to be superposterman or anything like that.. But as most of us know you post enough threads and eventually your going to run into these scenarios.
If you Guys(MODS,SUPERS,3AMIGOS) say to just ignore them then I will; no arguements and happily. But,If I can do so in this manner is it acceptable?

thank you for your time... sorry for the LOOOONG post


*EDIT*Also please understand that I AM not using Apoc's example to try to in anyway incriminate him. The MODS didnt feel it neccesary to warn him and IM NOT arueing that. I am merely using this example as it is the most recent to my memory and served the purpose of my inquiry.

again, thank you

My advice would be to keep your self-defense topical.

I took a VERY brief glance at the page you linked, and I stress that I don't have a moderators eye, nor did I put the same attention into the thread that I would if I had anything resembling the ability to make a definitive statement, but as far as I could see, you did it the right way there.

You gave him 2 lines- not necessarily advisable in all circumstances, but you have far more to the topic at hand.

That being said, when a thread degenerates to the level that one did, sometimes the little hairs on the back of your neck may stand up and you'll know that it'll be locked any minute. Sometimes it's best to just get the heck out of dodge when that happens, for fear that immature responses to your rebuke may only serve to provoke the trolls into ruining somebody's thread further.

The best tactic in the situation illustrated by your link is often to ignore the trolls, and stimulate the smart ones with a very well researched post that explores new angles- sometimes even an "unlikely but interesting" or "devils advocate" approach is good in those situations. When the big guns are trading volleys in an intelligent manner, some trolls realize they're outgunned and caught in a cross fire, and they leave.


I don't advise making crusading a primary pursuit on ATS, but when the spirit moves you, the above is my advice on the matter.

Good on ya' for your stated commitment to contributing only constructive posts, by the way.

thanks Vag.

Im sure thats just what a MOD or up would say to...I guess I needed some verification.

In the future though I think Im just going to "move on" instead of even trying; as your adivce was wise. As I said the MODS are more then capable. I just have to resist the urge.

LMAO...btw... being a "crusader" was the one thing I DIDNT want to be seen as in this regard... But I had a feeling thats the way it would be seen.

thanks for your input Vagabond

I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily. I've got a little crusader in me. I've mixed it up a time or two, sometimes more successfully than others. I've also gotten myself a little slap on the wrist here and there for being over-zealous though.

Sometimes constructive input in these situations is appreciated, as long as the motives are pure and the tactics are gentle. You have the advantage of meaning well, which means 9 times out of 10 the voice in the back of your head will probably steer you right.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily. I've got a little crusader in me. I've mixed it up a time or two, sometimes more successfully than others. I've also gotten myself a little slap on the wrist here and there for being over-zealous though.

Sometimes constructive input in these situations is appreciated, as long as the motives are pure and the tactics are gentle. You have the advantage of meaning well, which means 9 times out of 10 the voice in the back of your head will probably steer you right.

Quite true; although its nice to hear it from somewhere other then, my own racing mind.

The more aware of the line I become, the finer that line becomes. Also, I have been discovering that the more I try to walk the line between objective/bias the more centered I am becoming in my approach and delivery(alawys room for improvement of course)

You have more then adequately answered my question sir.
Once again, thank you The Vagabond

Did my thread on the 17 Canadian Islamic Extremist terrorists breach the rules? If it did, I do apologize.

Wisconsin

More about politics in general, I am quite happy that this is being done. Having been berated for asking a simple question a couple of weeks ago in the politics forum (and yes it was directly related to the original topic) I decided that rather than risk inciting the irritation of a "pro" political enthusiast, by asking simplistic questions (on accounta I don't know much and simplistic seems a good place to start) I'd just lurk.

I would like to be more involved, and hopefully a "kinder and gentler" political forum will emerge It takes time to learn and build confidence in one's knowledge and be able to express opinions - best served in an inviting atmosphere.

Cheers.

Feel free to U2U me any questions or links to threads where you need help, especially where politics is concerned. There are several members who know more than myself (Seekerof seems to know his stuff big time on international relations) but I've got a pretty decent grasp on things and sort of a natural instinct for things.

A Kinder, Gentler ATS

Originally posted by justgeneric
I would like to be more involved, and hopefully a "kinder and gentler" political forum will emerge

It takes time to learn and build confidence in one's knowledge and be able to express opinions - best served in an inviting atmosphere.

You've just described a major peeve of mine: rude behavior.

Everyone has a bad day, and no one's perfect (including me), but when enough members behave badly, the quality of the entire board rapidly goes downhill.

As a moderator, I want to do everything I can to encourage members to post on ATS without needing to worry about being insulted and shouted down for simply expressing an opinion.

Members who habitually insult other members and act in violation of the T&C have no place on ATS.

If you or any member should encounter insults or other rude behavior on ATS, please don't respond in kind! That only makes matters worse.

Instead, please use the Ideas/Complain link on the navigation bar to report the problem, and the ATS staff will investigate and respond appropriately.

Also, please don't ever hesitate to contact myself or any staff member by U2U if you have any questions or concerns.

We're here to help.

vagabond - you know not what you'v done *insert maniacal evil newby laugh* I am compiling my list I know I will have questions, and thank you very much for offering to accept U2's on political threads/topics I (or others) may have questions about. I hate to use up your U2Us with fledgling-pundit queries I'll use sparingly

Majiic - I think the Mods do a great job, and it can't be easy monitoring the numerous threads that are started and added to daily. Kinder and Gentler doesn't mean less effective or less poignant - I hope debates still rage on, just without the rage!!

Excelent, lots of threads get lead off track by systems designed to divide us. This should help elminate (or at least reduce the effect) of the left/right division.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I would imagine most americans would find such patent anti-American garbage inflammatory.

The ATS forums are predominantly American members, yet I don't hear cheers from the grandstands on your behalf. Funny that?


$.02

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
The ATS forums are predominantly American members, yet I don't hear cheers from the grandstands on your behalf. Funny that?


$.02

You really need to read my U2U box sometime - the smart Americans have figured out the deal here, and keep quiet.

Anyway, I elected to delete that post, you just beat me to it.

Understood.
Keep up the great work!!

Drow...

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
You really need to read my U2U box sometime - the smart Americans have figured out the deal here, and keep quiet.

And you'd think that if they truly believed in something, they'd stand up and speak out. Odd....

I guess you'll tell me they are afraid, eh? Play the victim...gain some sympathy, not have to do any actual debating...

[edit on 17-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

If Only You Knew

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
We need to stop all the baiting that goes on here, we should be as unbiased as the Administrators.

I really try to stay out of this sort of thing, and it's almost certainly wrong for me to publicly post what I'm about to post, but you're making it hard for me to remain silent.

Also, I despise using ad hominem -- references to the members instead of the topic -- in discussions, but I'll make an exception in this case and offer some insights regarding my own political views to reinforce my point.

I'm a registered Libertarian, but consider myself more a moderate.

I've voted a straight Republican ticket for years, not because I'm so thrilled about the Republicans -- they say one thing and do another -- but because I find the Democratic party so utterly despicable.

Forget that they also say one thing and do another, what they do say makes the idea of voting for them intolerable to me.

While I agree with the Democrats on some issues ("pro-Choice", for example), what I disagree on makes their platform a show-stopper for me. It is highly unlikely I will ever vote for a Democrat again. Ever.

Even though I consider both parties to be just two masks for the same face, there's some things I won't do, and vote for a Democrat is one of them.

I am also vehemently opposed to the Marxist religion in all its forms, and deeply resent the crimes against humanity that have been committed in the name of "social justice".

I'm not a "left-winger", and I am a very proud and opinionated American who also supports the war in Iraq, by the way -- though not for the bogus reasons fed to the public.

There's more to it than that, and I will not discuss politics further in this thread, but I hope that makes it clear where I'm coming from.

The Bias Against Truth

Your claims about the ATS administrators are false, and the way you continue to misrepresent their positions is shameful. :shk:

They have posted their opinions publicly time and time again, and seriously, if you honestly think you know what you're talking about, you need to go back and read them again.

Go ahead: pick any Amigo, click on his name and review what he's posted. Go back as far as you want. See how much partisanship you find.

Good luck with that.

In addition to the public record, I get to see what the Amigos say behind the scenes, and if you were to see what I have seen, you would have no choice but to post a long, dramatic, heartfelt and public apology for what you've said about them.

Your apparent vendetta against the ownership is ill-informed, erroneous and unjustifiable.

I urge you to put an end to your unfounded attacks against those whom have done you no wrong.