Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts


My main reason to reply though is that isn't the promise of Enlightenment or Esoteric Knowledge a form of salvation?

But Masonry does not promise Enlightenment or Esoteric Knowledge. That's what makes this whole thing sort of a "straw man" argument. I wasn't promised anything like that when I became a Mason, and I don't think any of the other Masons were either.

Masonry certainly has its own beliefs regarding sacred geometry, as an example, that along with other traits are incorporated uniquely as belief systems.

But once again, this is not accurate. Masonry does not have its own beliefs concerning sacred geometry. Geometry is mentioned in several Masonic degrees, but only in regard to its mathematical association with architecture, and not as "sacred".

Certainly when combined with black robes and adornments, these traits become unique to masonry when objectively placed in a modern Western World context.

You realize, though, that when Masons meet, we wear either business suits or tuxedos, over which we wear Masonic aprons, and not black robes?

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
I'm wondering just so I understand: It may take several lifetimes to reach nirvana, am I right about this? Thanks.

It may indeed take several physical lifetimes, but it takes only one soul lifetime. That's what I meant by different interpretations of life.

[edit on 12/6/2005 by Cug]

I always run into the same block I feel 2nd hand is running into:

Masonry certainly appears to be a pot of pagan, gnostic, cabalah, judeo-christian, ....stew. Individual religions ..... Gnosticism?..... Grand Master Architect or .... ...... Esoteric knowledge and secrecy.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But Masonry does not promise Enlightenment or Esoteric Knowledge. ...... I wasn't promised anything like that when I became a Mason, and I don't think any of the other Masons .....

Why are the philosophical roots always bypassed in these dicussions? I am not talking about the philosophies of "Universal Brotherhood". I am talking about occult and esoteric fundamentals.

It seems like these questions always get lost in a lot of collarary noise. Is this not more important than semantics about religion? Ok Esoteric knolwledge is not promised but the entire structure at least in olden times was based upon it. Could someone reply specifically to 2nd hand's comment; "Masonry certainly appears to be a pot of pagan, gnostic, cabalah, judeo-christian, ....stew"

The other problem may be time and place. Perhaps it is useless to ever use the term Freemason without specifing the historical point. It seems these Masons tend to assume we are talking about their current lodges when many of us are talking about historical fundamentals. I mean how can we lump Cagliostro and Count St. Germain with the local lodge of today?

I would supremely appreciate it if the issue of Occutic roots would be addressed. Perhaps this is the very subject your oaths prevent you from discussing. If this is the case it could be respected if you would just say (as Bush and Kerry did when confronted with Skull and Bones) "I can't talk about it because it's a secret". This would be more convicing than denying Cabala for example when it seems to be common knowledge that this is part of what Masonry is founded on.

Don't you also place various religion's scared books on your alters and use them in ceremonies? Ok so you do not discriminate on the basis of religion putting you own (apparently unspecified) Diety over and above these constituent religions. Please try to identify or quantify this Supreme Architect.
Thanks

Originally posted by peopledying
Masonry certainly appears to be a pot of pagan, gnostic, cabalah, judeo-christian, ....stew. Individual religions ..... Gnosticism?..... Grand Master Architect or .... ...... Esoteric knowledge and secrecy.

I posted my opinion on the "How do you prove a negative?" thread on just this issue.

Don't you also place various religion's scared books on your alters and use them in ceremonies? Ok so you do not discriminate on the basis of religion putting you own (apparently unspecified) Diety over and above these constituent religions. Please try to identify or quantify this Supreme Architect.

They are symbols that hold different meaning to each individual mason.

When a Jew hears Great Architect of the Universe he thinks of the Jewish God
When a Christian hears Great Architect of the Universe he thinks of the Christian God
When a Muslim hears Great Architect of the Universe he thinks of the Muslim God

The same thing goes for the scared book (I forget what they call it) My understanding most of the time they use whatever holy book that the majority of the Lodge follows. But for all practical purposes the book can be filled with blank pages as it's just a symbol of the holy book of whatever religion each individual mason follows.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by peopledying
Masonry certainly appears to be a pot of pagan, gnostic, cabalah, judeo-christian, ....stew. Individual religions ..... Gnosticism?..... Grand Master Architect or .... ...... Esoteric knowledge and secrecy.

I posted my opinion on the "How do you prove a negative?" thread on just this issue.

Ok but without leaving this thread could you make a response to the occult origins question here? I think is is fundamental in this discussion and I don't want to lose the point from 2nd hand.

Originally posted by Cug
They are symbols that hold different meaning to each individual mason.


The same thing goes for the scared book ....... But for all practical purposes the book can be filled with blank pages as it's just a symbol of the holy book of whatever religion each individual mason follows.

Ok thats nice. We have a very open minded Universalist Organization sort of like Yogananda's in terms of openess to religions but there's something different here. We have a huge fraternity full of secrets. It is not based on the worlds major religions as it is too open ended to comment on or judge them so it is something else that yet insists on a belief in a supreme Diety by its members. Why bother to insist on this at all, just to comply with some oaths inscribed in stone? Any why bother to take oaths of secrecy, Yogananda didn't care about fealty. It is also not typical because of it's age espicially assuming it real roots go well beyond 1717. It is also not typical because of the influence it has had in world power. The Occultic roots would appear deeper than just a fraternal organization. There is also the highly regamentalized structure that some Masons claim is headless as does the Masonicinfo.com. I have never seen a headless organization, espicially not this one.

Originally posted by peopledying

Ok but without leaving this thread could you make a response to the occult origins question here? I think is is fundamental in this discussion and I don't want to lose the point from 2nd hand.

Like I said in the other post, I don't see any occult origins. Most of the stuff I have seen have Judaeo Christian origins.

Originally posted by Cug
They are symbols that hold different meaning to each individual mason.


The same thing goes for the scared book ....... But for all practical purposes the book can be filled with blank pages as it's just a symbol of the holy book of whatever religion each individual mason follows.

Ok thats nice. We have a very open minded Universalist Organization sort of like Yogananda's in terms of openess to religions but there's something different here.

Well not that open minded there is the one God thing. And I don't get the huge jump to the new agey Yogananda thing? It's more like the non-denominational prayer you see before the start of sporting events (like auto racing).

We have a huge fraternity full of secrets.

What secrets? the handshakes and passwords? big whoop. The stuff they teach is not a secret, you can find the source material everywhere. What is secret could be called their method of teaching. In a way you could say in this case secret is like a copyright. Say a music school has copyrighted a way to learn piano that method is their "secret".

It is not based on the worlds major religions as it is too open ended to comment on or judge them so it is something else that yet insists on a belief in a supreme Diety by its members.
Why bother to insist on this at all, just to comply with some oaths inscribed in stone?

No to comply with their basic Judaeo Christian

Any why bother to take oaths of secrecy, Yogananda didn't care about fealty.

And why would any mason care about this Yogananda person you follow?

It is also not typical because of it's age espicially assuming it real roots go well beyond 1717. It is also not typical because of the influence it has had in world power.

You can say the exact same thing about the Christion religions.

There is also the highly regamentalized structure that some Masons claim is headless as does the Masonicinfo.com. I have never seen a headless organization, espicially not this one.

OK who is the head, and how does it connect?

Originally posted by Cug

Like I said in the other post, I don't see any occult origins. Most of the stuff I have seen have Judaeo Christian origins.

Come on Cug, with all you occult knowledge why would you say something like that? I am thinking again you are talking normal modern lodge and I am looking for deeper and older. You know it is siad they have actually LOST the OLD knowledge which would explain alot and which would make you correct in the present tense, really I guess I am looking older. Probably I should be researching Templars.

The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden". Occult blood is a medical term which refers to blood which cannot be seen, except perhaps under a microscope. The Occult has been defined as any activity which

1. is esoteric (employs knowledge that is not known to the general public, but which is only revealed gradually to a selected few in training), and
2. depends upon those talents which lie beyond the five senses, and
3. engages with the supernatural.

Let's just stick with Cabala for now for simplicities sake.

From a Masonic, I think) website:
www.masoncode.com...
excerpt :
We are also informed that the Brotherhood in its higher degrees is deeply concerned with the cabala. Albert Mackey, in the authoritative Encyclopedia of Freemasonry , asserts that Cabala is, " . . . intimately connected with the symbolic science of Freemasonry," (2). He goes on to say that:

Much use of it is made in the advanced degrees, and entire rites have been constructed on its principles. Hence it demands a place in any general work on Freemasonry."

There were 32000 hits searching on Cabala + Mason. Change the spelling of either and we could head for the sky. This material is umbiquitous.

heres more:
The Quatuor Coronati Lodge, (The Four Crowns Lodge)
- Founded as a special research lodge by the Grand Master of UGLE, the Prince of Wales, later King Edward VII, in 1884. The QC Lodge was then officially chartered in 1886.
- The inaugurating speech was entitled "Freemasonry as Seen in the Light of the Cabala."
- The lodge was to focus on Palestine, the Cabala, establishing a Jewish homeland, and rebuilding Solomon's Temple.
- Sir Charles Warren was the first grand master of the QC Lodge. He was also the president of the Palestine Exploration Fund, and two decades earlier had been the chief engineer for British excavations of the Temple Mount.

We have a huge fraternity full of secrets.
What secrets? the handshakes and passwords?

No not that stuff. Perhaps following the Cabala focus will show us that this is part of the secret.

And why would any mason care about this Yogananda person you follow?.

I am here for the ATS members not necessarily Masons. The point of Yogananda is when you visit one of his temples you find like plaques honoring all the world religions, Masonlike.

You can say the exact same thing about the Christion religions.

Exactly, the Vatican is under suspicion as well. I am not affliated with any organization.

There is also the highly regamentalized structure that some Masons claim is headless as does the Masonicinfo.com. I have never seen a headless organization, espicially not this one.

OK who is the head, and how does it connect?

That is what we are trying to find out. What do you say, the top is at 33rd and the 33rds run around independently of other 33rds and they don't answer to anyone beyoud Supreme Council. I really don't know.

Well I do know a little:

The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE)
- The Mother Lodge of worldwide freemasonry.
- Formed by combining the two existing forms of freemasonry in 1813. The first Grand Master was the Duke of Sussex.
- Edward, the Duke of Kent is now the Grand Master of this lodge and therefore the worldwide king of freemasonry.
- The Assistant Grand Master of UGLE is Lord Northampton, Spencer Douglas David Compton, the 7th Marquis of Northampton (he runs the show and directs the plans to rebuild the Temple).

[edit on 6-12-2005 by peopledying]

[edit on 6-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying

The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden". Occult blood is a medical term which refers to blood which cannot be seen, except perhaps under a microscope. The Occult has been defined as any activity which

LOL well whenever I try and use that definition in these types of disscussions I get a "come on we all know the common usage of the word Occult is magic, summoning demons, satan worship" I got tired of fighting it.

Let's just stick with Cabala for now for simplicities sake.

Like I said Judaeo Christian and really qabalah is Jewish mysticism. And "the Occult" and mysticism are not the same thing. The something in the occult can use mysticism but so can something that is not occult like a mainstream religion.

From a Masonic, I think) website:
www.masoncode.com...
excerpt :
We are also informed that the Brotherhood in its higher degrees is deeply concerned with the cabala. Albert Mackey, in the authoritative Encyclopedia of Freemasonry , asserts that Cabala is, " . . . intimately connected with the symbolic science of Freemasonry," (2). He goes on to say that:

Nope doesn't look like a Masons site, just someone with a qabalahistic bent trying to explain the secrets of Freemasonry using the qabalah. How much do you know about qabalah? About as basic explanation is that it is the rules that God administers the universe with. A set of universal laws so to speak that apply to everything. SO I have no doubt that you can use the qabalah to explain masonry but you can also use it to explain an Elvis song for that matter.

I am here for the ATS members not necessarily Masons. The point of Yogananda is when you visit one of his temples you find like plaques honoring all the world religions, Masonlike.

Who said Masons "honor" all the world religions. If they did why would they only allow those who believe in one god to be members?

Exactly, the Vatican is under suspicion as well. I am not affliated with any organization.

Christion religions does not equal the Vatican.

That is what we are trying to find out. What do you say, the top is at 33rd and the 33rds run around independently of other 33rds and they don't answer to anyone beyoud Supreme Council. I really don't know.

How do you explain that you only have to be a master mason (3rd) to hold any position of "power"?

BTW your doing a much better job at quoting now.

You have voted peopledying for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Peopledying - Thanks for your interesting thoughts and questions. This thread has gotten interesting again.

I'm not cheerleeding for a side in the discussion. I'm just looking forward to following a balanced forum.

Cug - Come on. What secrets, you said:

What secrets? the handshakes and passwords? big whoop. The stuff they teach is not a secret, you can find the source material everywhere. What is secret could be called their method of teaching. In a way you could say in this case secret is like a copyright. Say a music school has copyrighted a way to learn piano that method is their "secret".

I don't mean this in a snide way, but this type of "rebuttal" or "blockage" won't get any votes. I have two more and I'm optimistic. Secret oaths to protect signs and so forth to recognize others who have taken the secret oath to protect the signs and so forth to recognize others who have taken the secret oath to protect...so on and so forth...Come on Cug! "Big whoop"?

Take care guys and "as you 'were'".

[edit on 6-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 6-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

I don't mean this in a snide way, but this type of "rebuttal" or "blockage" won't get any votes. I have two more and I'm optimistic. Secret oaths to protect signs and so forth to recognize others who have taken the secret oath to protect the signs and so forth to recognize others who have taken the secret oath to protect...so on and so forth...Come on Cug!

"Big whoop"?

Blockage? I'm not a mason and I'm not interested in being one, so why should I block for them?

All I want to know what secrets everyone thinks the Masons are trying to protect? We all know they want to protect the mode of recognition, and their ceremonies but you can find those online (www.ephesians5-11.org...). The only thing left is their teachings and and quick search on eBay will get you a ton of books. Not to mention if you read the bible you can discover most of them on your own.

One of the things that I don't think people get is one of the reasons for a secret. If someone tells you a secret of great import humans will tend to remember them better. They just tend to stick in your mind.

I was a member of a Golden Dawn type order, I'm under oath never to reveal it's name yet every single thing they did can be found in a book that must of sold a million copies by now. (I.R.'s Golden Dawn) So yes sometimes the secrets just seem silly to someone from the outside.

I have said many times and I will say again inspite of the inquisitional form this board has taken. IMO the "secrets" that Masonry holds are secret no more.

They dealt with the individual looking within the individual, seeking within.
and these teachings even today incur the wrath of "the Church", howmuch moreso when The Holy Office of The Inquisition was active? BTW the office
of the inquisition is not gone, they just changed their name to protect the
guilty ( imo there is a branch office here, but that is another conspiracy)

Originally posted by peopledying

I am thinking again you are talking normal modern lodge and I am looking for deeper and older. You know it is siad they have actually LOST the OLD knowledge which would explain alot and which would make you correct in the present tense, really I guess I am looking older.

I'm afraid you may be disappointed. The entrance of mysticism and occult overtones into Freemasonry is actually a more modern phenomenon, dating to the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Before this time, Freemasonry was still basically an operative stonemasons guild. Freemasonry is much more concerned with metaphysics and philosophy today than it ever was than, say, a thousand years ago.

The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden". Occult blood is a medical term which refers to blood which cannot be seen, except perhaps under a microscope. The Occult has been defined as any activity which

1. is esoteric (employs knowledge that is not known to the general public, but which is only revealed gradually to a selected few in training), and
2. depends upon those talents which lie beyond the five senses, and
3. engages with the supernatural.

I would agree with your points 1 and 2, but not with three. Most scholarly students of occultism deny involvement with anything that could be labelled "supernatural". Rather, they would argue that occult forces are completely natural, but just haven't yet been harnassed by "profane science". Such things are "occult" because they remain "hidden" from man's natural senses. A good example is gravity, which is an occultic force that long was unknown to secular science; the same can be said of electricity (whose underlying principle is still not completely grasped by secular science, and still forms the basis of practical occultism).

Let's just stick with Cabala for now for simplicities sake.


We are also informed that the Brotherhood in its higher degrees is deeply concerned with the cabala. Albert Mackey, in the authoritative Encyclopedia of Freemasonry , asserts that Cabala is, " . . . intimately connected with the symbolic science of Freemasonry," (2). He goes on to say that:

Much use of it is made in the advanced degrees, and entire rites have been constructed on its principles. Hence it demands a place in any general work on Freemasonry."

I would tend to agree with Pike instead of Mackey, who wrote in his "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees" that the Blue Lodge Degrees are much more oriented toward the Kabalah than any of the so-called "advanced degrees". I think Mackey's confusion here is due to the fact that the word "Kabalah" is not used in the Blue Degrees, but it is in the more advanced degrees of the Scottish Rite.

No not that stuff. Perhaps following the Cabala focus will show us that this is part of the secret.

It has been suggested by some, including Pike, that modern Masonic secrecy is actually symbolic. In other words, the fraternity doesn't have a big secret or group of secrets, but instead uses secrecy itself as a symbol. This would make sense if we view Freemasonry as a philosophical school based on the Kabalah, as Pike did.

That is what we are trying to find out. What do you say, the top is at 33rd and the 33rds run around independently of other 33rds and they don't answer to anyone beyoud Supreme Council. I really don't know.

It is assumed by non-Masons that 33° Masons have more authority than others; however, this assumption is incorrect. 33° Masons have received an honor from the governing body of the Scottish Rite in recognition of outstanding services, by the honor of holding the 33° carries no governmental authority within Freemasonry. Each Free Mason is subject to the democratic process of the Lodge he holds membership in, which is a governed by a Worshipful Master and two Wardens, elected to one year terms by the Lodge. In turn, the Lodge is governed by a Grand Lodge, with Grand Officers being elected by representatives of the subordinate Lodges under its jurisdiction.

The only "degree qualification" for the highest offices in Masonry is that of Master Mason, or Third Degree.



[edit on 7-12-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by peopledying

I am thinking again you are talking normal modern lodge and I am looking for deeper and older. You know it is siad they have actually LOST the OLD knowledge which would explain alot and which would make you correct in the present tense, really I guess I am looking older.

I'm afraid you may be disappointed. The entrance of mysticism and occult overtones into Freemasonry is actually a more modern phenomenon, dating to the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Before this time, Freemasonry was still basically an operative stonemasons guild. Freemasonry is much more concerned with metaphysics and philosophy today than it ever was than, say, a thousand years ago.

The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden". Occult blood is a medical term which refers to blood which cannot be seen, except perhaps under a microscope. The Occult has been defined as any activity which

1. is esoteric (employs knowledge that is not known to the general public, but which is only revealed gradually to a selected few in training), and
2. depends upon those talents which lie beyond the five senses, and
3. engages with the supernatural.

I would agree with your points 1 and 2, but not with three. Most scholarly students of occultism deny involvement with anything that could be labelled "supernatural". Rather, they would argue that occult forces are completely natural, but just haven't yet been harnassed by "profane science". Such things are "occult" because they remain "hidden" from man's natural senses. A good example is gravity, which is an occultic force that long was unknown to secular science; the same can be said of electricity (whose underlying principle is still not completely grasped by secular science, and still forms the basis of practical occultism).

Let's just stick with Cabala for now for simplicities sake.


We are also informed that the Brotherhood in its higher degrees is deeply concerned with the cabala. Albert Mackey, in the authoritative Encyclopedia of Freemasonry , asserts that Cabala is, " . . . intimately connected with the symbolic science of Freemasonry," (2). He goes on to say that:

Much use of it is made in the advanced degrees, and entire rites have been constructed on its principles. Hence it demands a place in any general work on Freemasonry."

I would tend to agree with Pike instead of Mackey, who wrote in his "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees" that the Blue Lodge Degrees are much more oriented toward the Kabalah than any of the so-called "advanced degrees". I think Mackey's confusion here is due to the fact that the word "Kabalah" is not used in the Blue Degrees, but it is in the more advanced degrees of the Scottish Rite.

No not that stuff. Perhaps following the Cabala focus will show us that this is part of the secret.

It has been suggested by some, including Pike, that modern Masonic secrecy is actually symbolic. In other words, the fraternity doesn't have a big secret or group of secrets, but instead uses secrecy itself as a symbol. This would make sense if we view Freemasonry as a philosophical school based on the Kabalah, as Pike did.

That is what we are trying to find out. What do you say, the top is at 33rd and the 33rds run around independently of other 33rds and they don't answer to anyone beyoud Supreme Council. I really don't know.

It is assumed by non-Masons that 33° Masons have more authority than others; however, this assumption is incorrect. 33° Masons have received an honor from the governing body of the Scottish Rite in recognition of outstanding services, by the honor of holding the 33° carries no governmental authority within Freemasonry. Each Free Mason is subject to the democratic process of the Lodge he holds membership in, which is a governed by a Worshipful Master and two Wardens, elected to one year terms by the Lodge. In turn, the Lodge is governed by a Grand Lodge, with Grand Officers being elected by representatives of the subordinate Lodges under its jurisdiction.

The only "degree qualification" for the highest offices in Masonry is that of Master Mason, or Third Degree.



[edit on 7-12-2005 by Masonic Light]

Sounds like a religion to me, and god makes it clear we are to bow and worship only him. Yet you call him master even? What about your blood oaths and not sleeping with the wife of the worshipful master, but everyone elses is fair game. Then lets not forget it is all secret, yet Jesus said what you've heard in the closet proclaim it on the rooftop. Then the one I really really love is how I always hear King David was a man after God's heart and using that as a justification for adultery. Funny, nobody mentions what that act cost King David do they? Then as far as being after God's heart, let me make that clear since I am a prophet of God. King David was continually seeking the Lord to please him, that was how he was after God's heart. God made it clear there is no middle of the road with him, you are for or against. The Scripture proves who knows God and who doesn't
1Jo 4:1
¶ Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT WHO CONFESSES; "THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH" IS OF GOD,

1Jo 4:3
and every spirit who doesn't confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.

1Jo 4:4
¶ You are of God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.
God makes it clear, only people who can confess this are his children. Prophecy as given by God, isn't merely predicting the future, it is speaking God's word, and all born again Christians are prophets. Most of the people here are very wise, but a small, small few are very ignornant. Like I say to all, I can prove God to you, but when I show them that to do it requires a prayer to accept Jesus, they almost always reject it proving once and for all that they don't want to know God, they are just talk.

Originally posted by ugm84
Sounds like a religion to me, and god makes it clear we are to bow and worship only him.

That is correct.

Yet you call him master even?

Call who master? The Master of the lodge? Indeed we do, for that is his title. What's wrong with that?

What about your blood oaths and not sleeping with the wife of the worshipful master, but everyone elses is fair game.

Eh? What do you mean, everyone elses is fair game? If you promise to love God does that mean you promise to hate everyone who isn't God? Anyway, what wrong with respecting the chastity of those about you?

Then lets not forget it is all secret...

No - it isn't all secret. Where's the secrecy?

(much quoting of bible passages snipped)

ugm84

You have demonstrated an alarming lack of understanding of freemasonry and what it is all about. Feel free to ask questions here on open forum and I will be pleased to answer them.

Originally posted by ugm84

Sounds like a religion to me, and god makes it clear we are to bow and worship only him. Yet you call him master even?

Masons, of course, do not "worship" the Worshipful Master. "Worshipful" is an old English word that means "honorable". The word is still used in this context in the UK and Canada, for example, in the "Right Worshipful Lord Mayor of London", and in Canada where judges are referred to as "Your Worship", which is equivalent to the American "Your Honor". Masonry is a product of medieval England, and uses language taken from that period.

What about your blood oaths and not sleeping with the wife of the worshipful master, but everyone elses is fair game.

Where exactly did you hear this? No Mason has ever taken such an oath.

Thanks Cug. I get your meaning now. In this era of communication and information, I also agree that most likely all "secrets" are not so much secrets any more. I've read historical information about the organization being a political, religious, or philosophical safe-house in days of persecution. Thus, many early politicians and thinkers belonged. I think of it as a fortified coffee-house. (One where the customers wear the aprons and the bookshelf has an extensive occult section.)

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
I have said many times and I will say again inspite of the inquisitional form this board has taken. IMO the "secrets" that Masonry holds are secret no more.

Can this be labeled as Gnosticism, it sounds appropriate?

Originally posted by Cug

Like I said Judaeo Christian and really qabalah is Jewish mysticism. And "the Occult" and mysticism are not the same thing. The something in the occult can use mysticism but so can something that is not occult like a mainstream religion.

I have been wondering how common is the awareness of Cabala to the average practising Jew? Today all this stuff that may have been occult not long ago is all over the New Age section at Borders and the web for any commoner to see but tradionally was it considered hidden except for advances students? Was it on the level of the average Christians being unaware of the Gnostics and Essenes? And consider all the books discarded for various official Bibles for whatever reason. These couls be considered occult

Who said Masons "honor" all the world religions. If they did why would they only allow those who believe in one god to be members?

So it is mainstream monotheists only? If so how is it that they draw on Egyptian, Sumerian ideas as well?

Christion religions does not equal the Vatican.

It is even more impossible to take Christianity as a whole than Masonry, we can't lump the Inquisition with Sunday school.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

I'm afraid you may be disappointed. The entrance of mysticism and occult overtones into Freemasonry is actually a more modern phenomenon, dating to the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Before this time, Freemasonry was still basically an operative stonemasons guild. Freemasonry is much more concerned with metaphysics and philosophy today than it ever was than, say, a thousand years ago.

Sorry I should have been more specific. As far as the operatives go there are the architectural and geometric secrets that the operatives had going back to Egypt and Greece and possibly older that helped them to help them build those cathedrals and special glass that apparently has never been duplicated to this day. To me these are some of the "old secrets" of interest.
Also of interest is the post Templar up to speculative period. I have some resources that show Templar ideas did succesfully bridge the 1300 era to 1717. If we are looking at that period is it not true that we will find a lot of Mystery School, Egyptian, Cabala etc as inherited from the Templars and Rosicrucians. I never had the idea that this just materialized with the speculative period.

In the Hiram Key, Kinight and Lomas say "Not only are the origins of freemasonry no longer known, but the "true secrets" of the Order are admitted to have been lost, with "substituted secrets" being used in their place in Masonic ceremony.

They also are sure that Freemasonry started at Rosslyn Chapel mid 1500s by the St. Claire family, of which William St. Claire was the first grand master of Scottish Freemasonry. Apparently many records were lost around this time to due to Protestant vs Catholic struggles. King Henry VIII also looted Masonic assetts. All this led up to opening up Freemasonry to everyone launching the Speculative period as a survival mechanism.

The author of "The Templar Revelation" say 'the overall picture is one of an organization that has forgotten it's original meaning"

I feel there was indeed occult knowledge both mystical and practical (architectural, alchemical, and geometric) that made the Church feel threatened, as well as the Gnostic outlook.

I think all this shows there was a long lineage of occult and mystical or esoteric tradition going wat back before 1717, more than just stone cutting.

As well I was considering 17 and 1800s as still old compared to the present.

How much Cabala or alchemy or stone cutting is taught now via any method? If none when did it perish and what are the core constituents of current ritual and symblogy? Are there specific classes in any of the old skills?

Most scholarly students of occultism deny involvement with anything that could be labelled "supernatural". Rather, they would argue that occult forces are completely natural, but just haven't yet been harnassed by "profane science".

Paganism?

I would tend to agree with Pike instead of Mackey, who wrote in his "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees" that the Blue Lodge Degrees are much more oriented toward the Kabalah than any of the so-called "advanced degrees". I think Mackey's confusion here is due to the fact that the word "Kabalah" is not used in the Blue Degrees, but it is in the more advanced degrees of the Scottish Rite.

So we can agree the cabala is fundamental in Masonry?

The only "degree qualification" for the highest offices in Masonry is that of Master Mason, or Third Degree.

Ok let's consider Masonic power then in terms of association with world power as in for example:

The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE)
- The Mother Lodge of worldwide freemasonry.
- Formed by combining the two existing forms of freemasonry in 1813. The first Grand Master was the Duke of Sussex.
- Edward, the Duke of Kent is now the Grand Master of this lodge and therefore the worldwide king of freemasonry.
- The Assistant Grand Master of UGLE is Lord Northampton, Spencer Douglas David Compton, the 7th Marquis of Northampton (he runs the show and directs the plans to rebuild the Temple).

Is it not true that the power stucture is in place by association?

Originally posted by ugm84

1Jo 4:4
¶ You are of God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.
God makes it clear, only people who can confess this are his children. Prophecy as given by God, isn't merely predicting the future, it is speaking God's word, and all born again Christians are prophets. Most of the people here are very wise, but a small, small few are very ignornant. Like I say to all, I can prove God to you, but when I show them that to do it requires a prayer to accept Jesus, they almost always reject it proving once and for all that they don't want to know God, they are just talk.

You know I tend to get stymied on the use of the word "GOD" as used by any group. It always seems it is used as if it were generally acknolwedged that we all know what it means or who it is. What is one's God concept? It seems the word is overused without enough attempt to understand it, even on a personal basis. I wonder what Mason's are referring to when they say it. Is there any specific concepts such as a Taoist might have where all aspects including "good and evil or but facets of a single jewel" or what have you?

[edit on 7-12-2005 by peopledying]