It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

page: 7
0
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 02:56 PM
link   
Religion, religious philosophy, spiritual development, different words and their definitions go on and on. No one will ever agree on this and when books and dictionaries start getting pulled out all hope is over. It's all opinion.

I've posted my opinion that masonry is a religion of sorts that bases its proprietary religious philosophy upon the general religious idea that there is a deity or god whether it be Buddah or Elvis. The mason "religion' so to speak is that these deities are of the same god and so they are equal and exist beneath He With The Huge Eye.

So in my own opinion, this should be kept in mind when the argument turns to "You can believe in any god you want". OK fine but this is exactly why I think it is a religion. The subtext is that any god that you might believe in within whatever religion you practice outside of the lodge becomes unspoken within the rituals, etc. This is a definite religious philosophy at the least. I don't sit in on ceremonies and I don't hunt down rituals. I'm not into that.

And remember that just because someone (me I guess) believes masonry has enough religion and pagan and on and on qualities does not mean that I stand outside lodges killing chickens and shouting proverbs at satanists or luciferians or Grateful Dead fans.

The idea that it may or may not be a religion isn't a negative belief by default.

EDIT: OK maybe the Grateful Dead fans.

[edit on 10-11-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]




posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 06:09 PM
link   
No one is saying that there are not similarities. There are several Masonic sources that agree that there are striking similarities between the Mysteries and Freemasonry. The thing is, there is no direct lineage (or evidence thereof) from the Mysteries to modern Freemasonry. The methods are similar, the general Moral princple is the same, but the actual "meat and poatoes" was probably much different.

The ancient Mysteries were a religion. Their societies probably ran much differently than Freemasonry as we know it does.

You are right though, it is more than just acting in a play. A lot more. But the point is so that you find the imperfections and chip away at them, by which process you will naturally improve as a human being. It's really about self accountability, I think, more than anything else. At least that's one of the things I get out of it.

Good times.


The religious aspects of Freemasonry are there only to encourage study in the faith you practice. It's really as simple as that.

[edit on 11/10/05 by The Axeman]


BFD

posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 02:52 PM
link   
I'm sorry if somebody else already made this observation, I didn't see it if so...

I can't help but look at this question of Freemasonry as a Religion in a literal light...aside from the supposed goings-ons and conspiracy theories.

If you want to define Freemasonry and you are basing your definition from previously understood principles and guidelines than you MUST understand that Freemasonry is as a matter of FACT a Religion.

Look no further than the dictionary to confirm it...it's not exciting and it's not satisfying but it's the truth.

RELIGION
re·li·gion
1.A. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1.B. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 03:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by BFD


Look no further than the dictionary to confirm it...it's not exciting and it's not satisfying but it's the truth.

RELIGION
re·li·gion
1.A. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1.B. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


If it is the case that we can use one of any four of these definitions to define "religion", well, in that case, practically anything can be a religion. I care for my kids with zeal and conscientious devotion; according to the above definition, that would make it a religion.

Pepsi posts anti-masonic rhetoric with zeal. That would make ATS bad-mouthing his religion.

My brother pursues golf with zeal and devotion. That would make golf his religion.

Just because somebody wrote something in a dictionary, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.


BFD

posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 04:35 PM
link   
It doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong either...after all, Religion is just a word until you grant it power...you apparently do not want the word Religion associated with Freemasonry...as is your right to preference...but it doesn't necessarily make you right.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 07:56 PM
link   
Freemasonry is a tradition in my family. I can assure you it is not a religion but it does encourage those who have a faith to take it further, it doesnt matter what faith it is. In the freemason society every faith is welcome, thus the requirement to have a belief in a supreme being to be one, nowhere does it say in freemason law that you have to believe in a specific supreme being, get your facts straight.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 01:51 AM
link   
I find it very interesting that those outside of Freemasonry always want to tel those inside what they are and why.

The basic essense of any Religion since time began is that you wish to join that Religion or you are forced to join that Religion.

I was a Christian before I became a Freemason. No one has ever asked me to change that faith, I have never felt I have been presented with anything that would make me want to change my faith. I am still a Christian.

Surely to define a Religion there has to be a movement away from the Religion you had in the first place. You cant say I am a Muslim , without me , myself taking a leap from one Religious belief to another. It is my choice and no man has the power to determine what MY choice should be.

Good or bad, it is not for your the observer, to tell me what my faith is, if I choose to make Freemasonry my Faith then why not. The vast majority of Freemasons are active in their own Religion outside of Freemasonry. I would go so far as to point out that as far as percentages go they would be more active than the population as a whole.

For ten years I have asked a simple question to all those who would try to promote the idea that Freemasonry is a Religion, find me one person . Just one who has joined Masonry and given up his Religion to become a Freemason.

I am still waiting for one incident to be made known to me.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 07:15 AM
link   

Originally posted by BFD
you apparently do not want the word Religion associated with Freemasonry


I don't want the word "religion" to be associated with Freemasonry because it would be misleading and deceptive. Freemasonry is a fraternity, and Masons are well aware of this fact. We do not consider Freemasonry a religion at all.


BFD

posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 09:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by BFD
you apparently do not want the word Religion associated with Freemasonry


I don't want the word "religion" to be associated with Freemasonry because it would be misleading and deceptive. Freemasonry is a fraternity, and Masons are well aware of this fact. We do not consider Freemasonry a religion at all.




Fair enough.
I really don't care one way or another, I just find this discussion to be a little heated over a not-such-a-big-deal kind of thing.

IE: Poh-Tay-Toe, Poh-Tah-Toe.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 10:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by BFD

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by BFD
you apparently do not want the word Religion associated with Freemasonry


I don't want the word "religion" to be associated with Freemasonry because it would be misleading and deceptive. Freemasonry is a fraternity, and Masons are well aware of this fact. We do not consider Freemasonry a religion at all.




Fair enough.
I really don't care one way or another, I just find this discussion to be a little heated over a not-such-a-big-deal kind of thing.

IE: Poh-Tay-Toe, Poh-Tah-Toe.

BFD

You may find thing sort of thing no-big-deal, but I can assure you it is a big deal to those who have thought it through. For a true Christian freemason the implication that freemasonry is a competing religion is a very importanrt matter indeed, as there is room for only one religion and one God in their (our) minds. The fact that freemasonry is, or is not a religion is of critical interest.

That's why you get impassioned responses. Just because something isn't important to you doesn't mean that it isn't important to someone else. Consider according them the respect you would like to receive should the position be reversed.


BFD

posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 11:21 AM
link   
I know what you mean, but I think you're getting Religion and the 1st Commandment mixed up!

It says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - NOT "Thou shalt have no other Religions other than Christianity because if you do it'll cheapen your faith in me."

If I'm taking it all a little lightly you'll have to forgive my outsiders point of view...but I might also suggest that you take yourself a little less seriously and look at my point from outside your own shoes...if you can.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 01:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by The Axeman
The religious aspects of Freemasonry are there only to encourage study in the faith you practice. It's really as simple as that.


There is truth in that, brother, but it is also because a person who believes he will be held accountable for his actions in an afterlife is more likely to behave morally in this life than one who does not believe that way.



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 12:45 PM
link   
masonic light -

Equalizing all religions under a broader religious concept that equally accepts occult belief systems, luciferian belief systems and christian systems and so on is absolutely a religious concept that appears to be a masonic belief i.e. a belief in a grand architect accepting of all religions equally. To say that masonry has NOTHING to do with religion is ridiculous and obviously false. There are plenty of philosophical ideas, spiritual ideas, symbols and signs and aspects in masonry that borrow here and there from religious groups nearly as much as pagan groups.

To mention masonry and religion in the same breath is misleading? Misleading to whom? I've read thoughtful posts from claimed masons on this site that don't denounce religious aspects of masonry. Misleading or not it's there and that is a FACT. Positive or negative it is there and that is OPINION. No need to pull this topic back to page one again by ignoring something so obvious.



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 02:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by BFD
I know what you mean, but I think you're getting Religion and the 1st Commandment mixed up!

It says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - NOT "Thou shalt have no other Religions other than Christianity because if you do it'll cheapen your faith in me."


I hadn't even considered the First Commandment to be honest, but it does apply anyway. To my mind there is very little difference between having two religions and having two Gods. Most religions that I know are mutually exclusive, although I bet now someone is going to turn up with an example that isn't



If I'm taking it all a little lightly you'll have to forgive my outsiders point of view...but I might also suggest that you take yourself a little less seriously and look at my point from outside your own shoes...if you can.

Yes, sorry, I did come over a little strong there. Sorry about that. But it's an important point, and Christian freemasons have to put with with such a lot of nonsense from a variety of ignorant sources (and a few genuine ones too, to be fair) that the frustrations can show a little sometimes.

A Christian can only be told that they're not a Christian by someone who doesn't know them so many times ...



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 02:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by JustMe74


There is truth in that, brother, but it is also because a person who believes he will be held accountable for his actions in an afterlife is more likely to behave morally in this life than one who does not believe that way.



That's a very interesting point, but not one that I myself would adhere to.
You see, if we go down that path, we end up doing good things for reward or through fear.
I personally prefer to choose.
Freemasonry certainly does teach me about morality, but that morality cannot be forced upon me. I feel it is imperative to pick the path for oneself.

Try looking at it this way: if somebody helps you out for nothing, he is making a charitable act. But if he helps you out and gets paid for it, he is doing a job of work. The end result may be that you benefit, but the guy who has helped you out may not necessarily be doing so because he cares about you. Who has the upper hand in morality?

Certainly that is a simplification and it is an opinion, but I don't believe that Freemasonry has ever taught me that I must be a good man. It has taught me that morality is available to me, but it is up to me to choose it. If I'm rewarded for it so be it. Equally, I only have myself to blame if I fall short.

I've found Mark Masonry to be very interesting with regards to this subject. In that degree, we are taught a furtherance of the Second Degree and although the wages of a Master Mason are offered in return for good work, they are never promised nor should be sought by any man who has not earned them.



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 05:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

Equalizing all religions under a broader religious concept that equally accepts occult belief systems, luciferian belief systems and christian systems and so on is absolutely a religious concept that appears to be a masonic belief i.e. a belief in a grand architect accepting of all religions equally.

Where has any Freemason said anything about equalising Religions, accepting that each person has a right to choose has nothing to do with saying all religions are equal.




To say that masonry has NOTHING to do with religion is ridiculous and obviously false. There are plenty of philosophical ideas, spiritual ideas, symbols and signs and aspects in masonry that borrow here and there from religious groups nearly as much as pagan groups.

ML will answer for himself , but I feel compeled to point out. That not all philosphical ideas are religious , no more than all spiritual ones are. Religion , Faith is a personal choice. Symbolism is another word for , parable, you tell a story in order to assist in making some improvements. Simple really.



To mention masonry and religion in the same breath is misleading? Misleading to whom? I've read thoughtful posts from claimed masons on this site that don't denounce religious aspects of masonry. Misleading or not it's there and that is a FACT. Positive or negative it is there and that is OPINION.


I go to Church, I pray, these are Religious acts yes, but am I a Religion ? NO.

Your absolutely right , when you say Freemasonry contains many symbols and concepts borrowed from the Bible, however is the history of Isreal and its foundation the property of Religion. Or is it an excellent theatre which can be used to provide an atmosphere of learning.

I have already given my concepts above on Religious context, so I will not bore you with a repeat. Surfice it to say, you can not make a Religion from Peoples who do not wish to participate in this so called new religion.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 08:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by Leveller
Freemasonry certainly does teach me about morality, but that morality cannot be forced upon me. I feel it is imperative to pick the path for oneself.


Fair enough... but, would you not agree that someone who is a believer in God is more likely to be morally upright than one who is not? That is not to say that there are not atheists who are morally upright or religious people who are scoundrals.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 11:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by Leveller
Freemasonry certainly does teach me about morality, but that morality cannot be forced upon me. I feel it is imperative to pick the path for oneself.


Fair enough... but, would you not agree that someone who is a believer in God is more likely to be morally upright than one who is not?



No. I wouldn't. There are plenty of people out there who partake in atrocities in the name of their god and their religion. I can't see any proof that forcing a belief always dictates positive action and would even go so far as to say that it can seem absolutely detrimental at times.
I don't believe that it is religion's or by way of religion, God's duty to force morality on a man. When this has been tried, history shows us that it tends to fail miserably.

And leading on, we get back to the statement I made earlier. Who is more morally upright? The man who does good things all of the time for reward or the man who does good things some of the time for nothing?

Looking at the above, you can see that defining morality is a minefield!! Isn't it therefore better to define it for yourself rather than having it pushed upon you?



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 12:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
masonic light -

Equalizing all religions under a broader religious concept that equally accepts occult belief systems, luciferian belief systems and christian systems and so on is absolutely a religious concept that appears to be a masonic belief


But Masonry does not equalize belief systems. It simply equalizes men.

Any religion could be classified as an "occult belief system". The term "luciferian belief system" is meaningless, as such a thing doesn't even exist. But the fraternity does not care about a man's personal religious beliefs, as such things are between him and God alone.


i.e. a belief in a grand architect accepting of all religions equally.


Again, Masonry accepts men equally, not religions. Religion is outside the jurisdiction of a fraternal order. Also, Masonry says nothing about the Grand Architect accepting all religions, and the term "Grand Architect of the Universe", of course, originated with Christianity, not Masonry.


To say that masonry has NOTHING to do with religion is ridiculous and obviously false. There are plenty of philosophical ideas, spiritual ideas, symbols and signs and aspects in masonry that borrow here and there from religious groups nearly as much as pagan groups.


Masonry strives to educate its members in the ideas of philosophy and history, and the development of morals. Therefore, of course, the study of the dvelopment of religion is important. But Masonry says nothing of the truth or falsehood of any particular religion. Generally, Masons are smart enough to figure those kinds of things out all by themselves.


To mention masonry and religion in the same breath is misleading? Misleading to whom?


That's not what I said. I said that to call Masonry a religion is misleading to non-Masons because Masons recognize the fact that Masonry is a fraternity. Simply put, Masonry is not our religion, nor was it the religion of Pike (he was Episcopalian), Mackey (he was a Unitarian), or Coil (he was a Congregationalist).



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 05:26 PM
link   
Masonry accepts all men equally whom believe in a supreme god or just a not-so-supreme regular sort of god. Given that no one god from a single religion is held in regard higher than any other, they are therefore equal or equalized within a generalized term.

Any supreme being discussed wherever and whenever masons meet also encompasses the unspoken individual beliefs of members. This catch-all supreme being trumps all others in that it is the sum of the members' parts and the parts themselves are components of the more generalized terminology at use. The members are free to worship privately as they choose: Hinduism, Judaism, Catholocism, Satanism, whatever.

To be fair, you said that you did not want religion "associated with freemasonry". That was the statement I was replying to and you yourself have since posted there is an important study of the development of religion as part of masonry. It appears we agree. "Religion" as a topic of value is associated with masonry. If it wasn't important and wasn't studied, then that area of association would be eliminated.

To get into apples and nuts and oranges and bolts, there absolutely ARE people who worship lucifer, which is Latin for light-bearer, as an entity. And since mysticism and occultic beliefs and related symbols are present in masonry, they ARE there too. There IS a present carry-over influence from alchemy and other beliefs just as the influences of Judaism are there as well. Hence there is an association with religion even though the idea of an "authorized primary association" is a different topic of discussion.


[edit on 21-11-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]




top topics



 
0
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join