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Meier Case on C2C

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posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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I'm like the new kid on the block...

So what I am asking you is... right here, right now... show me one thing that will get the job done.

Thanks Michael.


BTW Gasrok...

With regards to the tsunami... I have already mentioned such predictions WERE in fact made several weeks before the event.

[edit on 24-8-2005 by golemina]




posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 11:55 AM
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First, Jeff is, of course, entirely wrong about the UFO being a model "wired to the tree". Look, anybody can make wild claims like that, for the umpteenth hundreth time...duplicate the damn thing! Go outside, wire a 14' UFO "model" to a tree, zoom in from 300+ on it and show us. That shouldn't be so hard, Meier did it with one hand...and he didn't have any fancy computers and effects sitting around, or the time to "theorize" on how it could be done.

As for one thing, pleaseunderstand that I've spent 26 years researching this and if there was only one thing that made the case real it would sure be easier. But why not try this, go to www.theyfly.com, click on Aritcles, click on Michael's Douments and read the ones pertaining to Jupiter there. We have that locked down with no wiggle room, despite some good, dedicate efforts on the part of skeptics who certainly tried.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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Lets see, wild claims...

The UFO is wired to a fake tree.


The UFO is an extraterrestrial craft there for purposes of being photographed for a Swiss man having contacts with beings from the Pleadian star cluster.


Take your pick of which is "wilder".

Sure, I'll go this weekend and get a tree and I already have a saucer...but even when it's done, whats that going to do for you? I'll do it, I just wanna know what you plan on getting from that. BTW, I'll have to use high-8 video, as I have not yet secured the Nalcom



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by 8Michael12
First, Jeff is, of course, entirely wrong about the UFO being a model "wired to the tree". Look, anybody can make wild claims like that, for the umpteenth hundreth time...duplicate the damn thing! Go outside, wire a 14' UFO "model" to a tree, zoom in from 300+ on it and show us.


LOL...14'



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by 8Michael12
Go outside, wire a 14' UFO "model" to a tree, zoom in from 300+ on it and show us. That shouldn't be so hard, Meier did it with one hand...and he didn't have any fancy computers and effects sitting around, or the time to "theorize" on how it could be done.


You gotta admit, the guy's got a point. Is it possible, yes, but one has to use their common sense and admit that it would have made it increasingly more difficult. Think about camera, film, and effects technology when these pictures were taken/made. I've always thought there was something real going on here.

On a side note, most have ridiculed the tin foil outfit and the laser gun, but how do we know that where they come from their stuff doesn't look like that. We're basing our opinions on Earth fashion trends and weapon design. Maybe they didn't evolve in the same way we did as far as those things go. Maybe the things that they create are made more for the purpose of function and not appearance. Who knows, maybe those outfits are all the rage where they come from. I think this should be taken in to account by everybody.

There is still the question of the five-fingered hand and the seven-fingered handprint though.

Peace


[edit on 24-8-2005 by Dr Love]



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Love

Originally posted by 8Michael12
Go outside, wire a 14' UFO "model" to a tree, zoom in from 300+ on it and show us. That shouldn't be so hard, Meier did it with one hand...and he didn't have any fancy computers and effects sitting around, or the time to "theorize" on how it could be done.


You gotta admit, the guy's got a point. Is it possible, yes, but one has to use their common sense and admit that it would have made it increasingly more difficult. Think about camera, film, and effects technology when these pictures were taken/made. I've always thought there was something real going on here.

On a side note, most have ridiculed the tin foil outfit and the laser gun, but how do we know that where they come from their stuff doesn't look like that. We're basing our opinions on Earth fashion trends and weapon design. Maybe they didn't evolve in the same way we did as far as those things go. Maybe the things that they create are made more for the purpose of function and not appearance. Who knows, maybe those outfits are all the rage where they come from. I think this should be taken in to account by everybody.

There is still the question of the five-finger seven-finger handprint though.

Peace



Doc- Hollywood had been doing the same forced perspective shots long before Meier. In finding this on the net some time ago, (credit to the Turkey UFO page) one can deduce the UFO might be roughly 14 inches or so across.



The problem is people portray the photos and films as alot better then they actually are. Some of the photos are great, I still love lookin at them. Those are also the most publicized ones. They aint all roses...some of them in my opinion suck. But they are less known by the public. The truly awful ones, perhaps "stolen or lost"? Who knows.

Dont worry, once I shoot video I'll show both the good version and the "telling" one. You'll see both, and get the idea.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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My head is even more twisted now with jeff and gaz's points and michaels



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Man what a lively thread. I should check this section more often.

I spend most of my time in the lost civilizations section, that's my main interest. But I heard about the Meier case in an argument about ancient astronauts. I am a skeptic, and like somebody here said earlier, I was most interested in the prophecies, not having seen very many of the photos or vids (slow modem, bad ISP.)

Anyway, using Google I was able to resolve the issue (to myself anyway) in a matter of a couple of hours (would have been minutes if I had DSL!)

I'm not going to post everything I found because all the sites I saved are in my favorites folder and I don't want to take the time to load each saved site.
I guess I could post those links, but I prefer to comment on or quote from the site in question, rather than just post links and then leave it to the readers what the pertinant info might be on the linked-to site.

On the oil-earthquake connection.

Oil wells are often harvested using water (flush out or force out remaining oil.) The establishment of a connection between oil wells and earthquakes involves the use of water in this way. Unfortunately for Meier proponents, this connection was first suspected back in the late 1950's, try googling "Rangely oil well earthquake" or something for the old reference.
Scientists published information and findings on exactly this phenomenon in 1972 Earthquake-oilwell connection

On atomic tests destroying ozone.



The third of the global effects is a predicted partial destruction of the layer of ozone that surrounds the entire earth in the stratosphere. A nuclear fireball, by burning nitrogen in the air, produces large quantities of oxides of nitrogen. These are carried by the heat of the blast into the stratosphere, where, through a series of chemical reactions, they bring about a depletion of the ozone layer. Such a depletion may persist for years. The 1975 N.A.S. report has estimated that in a holocaust in which ten thousand megatons were detonated in the Northern Hemisphere the reduction of ozone in this hemisphere could be as high as seventy per cent and in the Southern Hemisphere as high as forty per cent, and that it could take as long as thirty years for the ozone level to return to normal

From: Abomb-ozone

On the "prediction" of a ring system for Jupiter.


Data from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft suggested that a ring system around the giant planet Jupiter existed; this was confirmed by the Voyager flybys.

From: Jupiter ring system

Regarding the "highest peak" being Mount Chimborazo rather than Everest, every pro Meier site I have seen makes the claim that this mountain rises the highest above sea level. This is patently false. Mount Chimborazo rises the highest above the Earth's center, and that due to the equatorial bulge exhibited by the Earth and presumably due to the centrifugal force of the Earth's spin.

It is quite understandable that every such site would make this false claim, however. Like a lot of these kinds of sites, the information about the prophecies made by Meier which have supposedly been "confirmed" has obviously been cut and pasted directly from other sites, mistakes and all. The info is always credited to Michael Horn, and I assume that he made the original mistake. But I see in his previous post here that at least he is acknowledging that this info was out there before Meier made his prediction (they never, ever say that on those wild and wacky UFO websites!) Interestingly, neither mountain is the highest mountain (base to tip) on Earth, that distinction is reserved to Mauna Loa in Hawaii. Did Meier tell us that as well? I don't have any idea.

I also have a link to a site showing that the effect of Bromine on the ozone was well known prior to Meier's "prophecy." For some reason the site won't load right now. I encourage others to google "bromine ozone" and maybe include a year in the query that is before the year Meier originally (supposedly) predicted it.

Lastly, I know it was posted here before, but I can't keep myself from putting it up again:
www.iigwest.com...

This Ike person has pinpointed a few instances where Meier's prophecies preceded (by only a few weeks) stories in well read periodicals about many things he predicted. This report is very much worth reading. The author assumes for the purpose of dating the Meier "predictions" the earliest dates of publication he can find for the prediction in question. This method I am sure will create ire from Meier proponents, but to me it seems perfectly reasonable, after all, should we just take Meier at his word?

The most interesting part is that the press, as is common, made mistakes in their reporting. Even more interesting is that Meier made precisely the same mistakes. Coincidence?

The huge volume of writings by Meier and others on this entire situation makes at-home spare time investigation of this matter extremely difficult and time consuming. Because of this, I haven't looked much further into it. Like I said, I have satisfied myself as to the veracity of the story. At least I looked into it with some effort.

I have found other reasons for disbelief that I have not stated here. To me, one example of a prophecy being even somewhat suspect is enough reason to dismiss the entire thing as a hoax. This may seem a high standard, and I'd agree that it is. It could be too high, that is, it could lead to something that is real being proclaimed a hoax. I say that such is life. Even a hoaxer can make millions of dollars from the kinds of "believers" that provide the numbers of hits to a site that Horn has bragged about here. The problem is that it is too easy to create and maintain any hoax unless this kind of high "one strike your out" standard is applied.

Hopefully I won't get flamed by Horn for disagreeing.

Harte



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 02:40 PM
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Harte-
Thanx for posting. I'm glad someone has the patience to investigate the prophetic information, I know I dont. Then again, it isnt my area of interest, nor expertise.

I read Ike's piece awhile ago too...it's really interesting.



posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 05:57 PM
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Flamed, not at all.

Comments inserted below.


On the oil-earthquake connection.

Oil wells are often harvested using water (flush out or force out remaining oil.) The establishment of a connection between oil wells and earthquakes involves the use of water in this way. Unfortunately for Meier proponents, this connection was first suspected back in the late 1950's, try googling "Rangely oil well earthquake" or something for the old reference.
Scientists published information and findings on exactly this phenomenon in 1972 Earthquake-oilwell connection

MH: Try using google, gosh why didn't Meier do that back inthe 70's...when there was no such thing, when a German speaking farmer living in rural Switzerland wasn't sitting technical libraries at some university picking up what was at that time very obscure information? Does the fact that it was correct info told to Meier at a time when he would have no other access to it - nor any reason to be attmepting to get such - not figure in the credibility equation? And when I was researching all of that a few years ago that info wasn't coming up for me on the internet...it may not even have been there then.

On atomic tests destroying ozone.

quote:
The third of the global effects is a predicted partial destruction of the layer of ozone that surrounds the entire earth in the stratosphere. A nuclear fireball, by burning nitrogen in the air, produces large quantities of oxides of nitrogen. These are carried by the heat of the blast into the stratosphere, where, through a series of chemical reactions, they bring about a depletion of the ozone layer. Such a depletion may persist for years. The 1975 N.A.S. report has estimated that in a holocaust in which ten thousand megatons were detonated in the Northern Hemisphere the reduction of ozone in this hemisphere could be as high as seventy per cent and in the Southern Hemisphere as high as forty per cent, and that it could take as long as thirty years for the ozone level to return to normal

From: Abomb-ozone

MH: Sorry, Meier was first told about the actual extensive damage from A-bomb testing in about 1956, then again in 1975...and the percentages that he was told were very close to what was reported by Lawrence Livermore. And the 1975 report that you refer to here, without such percentages mentioned, again wouldn't have been available to Meier. Please prove otherwise.

On the "prediction" of a ring system for Jupiter.
quote:
Data from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft suggested that a ring system around the giant planet Jupiter existed; this was confirmed by the Voyager flybys.

From: Jupiter ring system

MH: There was more than the ring system, which, while suspected, was CONFIRMED five months after Meier described it. Even more importantly, the info on Io being the most volcanically active body in the solar system wasn't confirmed until March 12, 1979, well after Meier had already published it. And NASA said that was the MOST IMPORTANT info from the mission. Another "lucky guess" by Meier?

Regarding the "highest peak" being Mount Chimborazo rather than Everest, every pro Meier site I have seen makes the claim that this mountain rises the highest above sea level. This is patently false. Mount Chimborazo rises the highest above the Earth's center, and that due to the equatorial bulge exhibited by the Earth and presumably due to the centrifugal force of the Earth's spin.

It is quite understandable that every such site would make this false claim, however. Like a lot of these kinds of sites, the information about the prophecies made by Meier which have supposedly been "confirmed" has obviously been cut and pasted directly from other sites, mistakes and all. The info is always credited to Michael Horn, and I assume that he made the original mistake. But I see in his previous post here that at least he is acknowledging that this info was out there before Meier made his prediction (they never, ever say that on those wild and wacky UFO websites!) Interestingly, neither mountain is the highest mountain (base to tip) on Earth, that distinction is reserved to Mauna Loa in Hawaii. Did Meier tell us that as well? I don't have any idea.

I also have a link to a site showing that the effect of Bromine on the ozone was well known prior to Meier's "prophecy." For some reason the site won't load right now. I encourage others to google "bromine ozone" and maybe include a year in the query that is before the year Meier originally (supposedly) predicted it.

MH: Again, Meier's info also pertained to specific consequences from the ozone damage, all reported well after he was first told about them. More importantly and also again...he had NO access to such information and no reason to even be looking for it. Please show otherwise.

And you're being very selective in your criticism, what about all of the other events and information, if you haven't found proof that Meier preempted in his publication of it, what is that telling you? An example, the info re the magma chambers under Vesuvius.

Another example, the 236 confirmed UFO radar sightings above Meier' land by the Swiss military...who set up installations there because of what...birds flying around? That was from teh SWISS MILITARY. If a comparable thing happened here we'd be all over it, at least for a day until the idiots went back watching "reality" TV.

Lastly, I know it was posted here before, but I can't keep myself from putting it up again:
www.iigwest.com...

This Ike person has pinpointed a few instances where Meier's prophecies preceded (by only a few weeks) stories in well read periodicals about many things he predicted. This report is very much worth reading. The author assumes for the purpose of dating the Meier "predictions" the earliest dates of publication he can find for the prediction in question. This method I am sure will create ire from Meier proponents, but to me it seems perfectly reasonable, after all, should we just take Meier at his word?

The most interesting part is that the press, as is common, made mistakes in their reporting. Even more interesting is that Meier made precisely the same mistakes. Coincidence?

MH: You really don't get it re the Jupiter info. It was NOT available to Meier when he published it in 1978 - since it wasn't discovered until 1979...and absolutely NOWHERE does Ike specify WHAT publications in WHAT languages were PROVEN to be available to Meier...four days before Stevens took the information - including the ten specific predictions you haven't mentioned and returned to the U.S. with them. Really, where are the thinking skills and the ability to thoroughly, comprehensively consider an enormous body of diverse information - THAT NO ONE HERE, RIGHT HERE, EVEN KNEW SQUAT ABOUT AT THE TIME - and six categories of still irreproducible physical evidence?

The huge volume of writings by Meier and others on this entire situation makes at-home spare time investigation of this matter extremely difficult and time consuming. Because of this, I haven't looked much further into it. Like I said, I have satisfied myself as to the veracity of the story. At least I looked into it with some effort.

MH: If you are satisfied after that paltry effort than it's probably best to not even look further, really. What on earth do you think would happen if you start to have reasonable doubt about your quickly drawn conclusions and begin to see something that was formulated and effected, over the past 63 years, by people who were not only light years beyond you in intelligence but have done their best to not blow our brains out of our poor, overly self-impressed little ego-inflated minds?


I have found other reasons for disbelief that I have not stated here. To me, one example of a prophecy being even somewhat suspect is enough reason to dismiss the entire thing as a hoax. This may seem a high standard, and I'd agree that it is. It could be too high, that is, it could lead to something that is real being proclaimed a hoax. I say that such is life. Even a hoaxer can make millions of dollars from the kinds of "believers" that provide the numbers of hits to a site that Horn has bragged about here. The problem is that it is too easy to create and maintain any hoax unless this kind of high "one strike your out" standard is applied.

Hopefully I won't get flamed by Horn for disagreeing.

MH: As I said, not inflamed at all, just depressed by the crop of shallow "thinkers" and their quick, glibly drawn and uninformed comclsuions. Don't I wish there was millions of dollars to be made from people reading a ton of free articles that I've posted! Oh the (presumably) American mind and its stupid obsession with the money motive. Hey, not everybody has the same shallow, stupid, valueless values that we do.

Here's the deal as far as I'm concerned. I've visited with Meier, several of the other photographers, witnesses, etc. over the past five years. I've tried to trip him up with trick questions. I've watched, listened, asked and learned. And it's painfully obvious that what passes for thinking, intellectual honesty and integrity HERE is a pathetic joke, probably part of the reason that, since at least 1981 (if not back in the 1950s) the ETs were already describing the "devastation, destruction and annihilation" that (unless we DO something about it) awaits this country, largely due to the foreign policies that have been in effect here for at least 60 years. And do you think that just one of the clever folks on this, or any of the other forums has invested a fraction of their admittedly small amount of "investigation" into the character, qualifications, policies, etc. of the parasitic bottom feeders that are the majority of leaders this government? I doubt it.

When Meier was told, in January, that the sad truth is that hman beings have learned nothing from about 30 years of published prophecies - due to a winning combination of arrogance and ignorance - the only word his ET friend used to describe the coming changes to our world was "apocalyptic".

So, my suggestion for the know it alls and the too lazy to learn anythings is this. Use the free resources available to research and think if you wish but please no more griping until you've duplicated all of the categories of Meier's physical evidence and until you've dragged your butts over to Switzerland to examine the fingerprints while they're still available. As I said before, there's NO excuse for your not doing so IF you really want to know for certain if the case is authentic.

That's it then, exalt ignorance or do the work.

I'm gone, six lectures to do, more radio and a time to refocus on correspondence from people who really care about their future and taking repsonsibility for their lives. Oh yeah, since this preson mentioned the problem with the prophecies, go read the Henoch Prophecies and Contact 251. See if you recognize any of the things that have already occurred since they were written and published. And see if you really are looking forward to the other ones occurring, especially in places like the U.S., UK, Europe, etc. And have a nice day. from here on, I'll only answer direct emails as time permits.

Talk amongst yourselves.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by 8Michael12
And it's painfully obvious that what passes for thinking, intellectual honesty and integrity HERE is a pathetic joke


Thats the feeling I have too, only in reverse.

"That's it then, exalt ignorance or do the work."

Youre incredible. Even when people DO the work, if it's not the answer you come to, we're all lazy and ignorant.

I hope someday you really get a grip on reality.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 03:35 AM
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Very interesting, it's looking even more active in here then I thought. I'm going to need yet more time just to read through all this before commenting.

James Truthseeker



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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but stop arguing with these guys for just a couple of minutes Michael.


Thanks for taking the time to provide urls + directions Michael, but I'm NOT really interested in the cattle car... Nor dog and pony shows, you understand?

I guess an analogy might help clarify what I'm seeking from you.

I helped some friends put together a court case some months back. The case had been going for years and years and the amount of information was just huge. They literally had half a dozen boxes of first-line documents. But the core of the case came down to just one two-page document...

All I'm asking for is for you to reduce your '26 years' worth of efforts down to something comparable to the above 'two-page document'. Share with us your best piece of information...

Come on Michael, show us what you've got.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:33 AM
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Devil's advocate here for a moment, the only thing to introduce here that would be convincing, is of course, a live (or even dead) Plejaren.

I think we all know, Michael included, that this simply isn't going to happen...


The Meier camp has presented prophecies, photos, videos, sound recordings, alleged physical evidence (such as metal, the ray gun hole, fingerprints, etc.). So, they've presented their evidence, and in many cases have found scientists willing to risk their rep on supporting it.

However, the case is only as good as this evidence...and the earlier photos are amazingly fake-looking, even downright hokey. The prophecies are trivial and largely already suspected (prior to the prediction), just CONFIRMED after the prediction. The metal's analysis has conflicting reports, and would need more investigation, the ray gun hole isn't difficult to fabricate, nor are the fingerprints. The sound recording and the video almost seem downright desparate...

Shy of producing a live or dead alien, about the only thing more to provide would be full, non-blurry, video of touring a Plejaren craft, and then out the window as they lift off and go into space. Even though of course, this could be faked, it would take more than the resources of a one-armed Swiss farmer to pull off (as Michael is so fond of saying
) to be convincing. Somehow, I don't see such a video coming forth, hehe....



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
The Meier camp has presented prophecies, photos, videos, sound recordings, alleged physical evidence (such as metal, the ray gun hole, fingerprints, etc.). So, they've presented their evidence, and in many cases have found scientists willing to risk their rep on supporting it.


Well thats just the thing, many of those listed as scientific experts dont actually give any conclusion, or even hint that they did hard core research on the evidence. I havent seen one of the many listed say "this is 100% real", but "if this is real", or "if this is real this is really going to be something", or, "they looked like legitimate photographs".

This doesnt sound to me like they were involved in depth, nor that they were shown some of the more dubious photos and film shown here. Yet it's touted as if they have given their stamp of approval.

I would be very interested to contact these people today and see what their standpoint is now, at a time when we *are* seeing the more "hokey" as Gaz put it, evidence.

One professional you wont see within the report is a guy named Ken Dinwiddie, who was imaging professional that was brought several of Meier's photos for enhancement and detection. He was told by one of the main investigators: "'Can you make the bottom of the object appear to reflect the ground below?" And thats what they did. Dinwiddie went on record in the newspaper saying this. The also did color posterizations that were later portrayed as "Thermogram -- color density separations -- low frequencies properties of light/time of day are correct; light values on ground are reflected in craft bottom; eliminates double exposures and paste-ups"
Dinwiddie said in response to that, "No, we put those colors in the photo!"

There's one professional you wont see mentioned, and in my opinion one of the key persons who can shed alot of light on what the pictures really showed, if he looked in that capacity. But he apparently says that the pictures were altered and his work misrepresented as analysis.

You can read more here on that: www.rickross.com...

As I said, I'd be interested in what any of these people have to say as of today.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by 8Michael12
Flamed, not at all.


...try googling "Rangely oil well earthquake" or something for the old reference.
Scientists published information and findings on exactly this phenomenon in 1972 Earthquake-oilwell connection

Does the fact that it was correct info told to Meier at a time when he would have no other access to it - nor any reason to be attmepting to get such - not figure in the credibility equation? And when I was researching all of that a few years ago that info wasn't coming up for me on the internet...it may not even have been there then.


I do not maintain that Meier had access to this information in 1976. Only that the information was out there then.
Interesting (as Ike points out), this contact stated that oil and gas extraction (among other things) “were major contributing factors to increased earthquake and volcanic activity...” but there has been no increase in earthquake or volcanic activity.


Originally posted by 8Michael12


On atomic tests destroying ozone. ... The 1975 N.A.S. report has estimated that in a holocaust in which ten thousand megatons were detonated in the Northern Hemisphere the reduction of ozone in this hemisphere could be as high as seventy per cent and in the Southern Hemisphere as high as forty per cent, and that it could take as long as thirty years for the ozone level to return to normal...


MH: Sorry, Meier was first told about the actual extensive damage from A-bomb testing in about 1956, then again in 1975... And the 1975 report that you refer to here, without such percentages mentioned, again wouldn't have been available to Meier. Please prove otherwise.


I am sorry, but I am not the one making any claim here. Hence the onus of proof is not on me. This is a typical dodge – come out with some wild claim and say since someone can’t prove it wrong then it must be true.

Please prove to me that Meier first heard of this in 1956.
Please prove to me that the Lincoln assassination was not actually a suicide.

In the linked report by Ike, it is stated that the New York Times had multiple stories about the A-bomb/ozone connection in 1974. Other sources from 1974 are also listed.



Originally posted by 8Michael12


On the "prediction" of a ring system for Jupiter.
quote:
Data from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft suggested that a ring system around the giant planet Jupiter existed; this was confirmed by the Voyager flybys.


MH: There was more than the ring system, which, while suspected, was CONFIRMED five months after Meier described it. Even more importantly, the info on Io being the most volcanically active body in the solar system wasn't confirmed until March 12, 1979, well after Meier had already published it. And NASA said that was the MOST IMPORTANT info from the mission. Another "lucky guess" by Meier?


If you are asking me, and I assume you are considering the question mark, then I’d have to say no. It was no guess. The earliest confirmable publication date that Ike was able to find for information on Jupiter from the 115th contact was in 1982. Every bit of this information had been available to the public for a couple of years prior to then.
Also, several points about Jupiter that were supposedly told to Meier by his alien friends turned out to be wrong. These points had been reported in the media and the media points were wrong in exactly the same way that Meier’s predictions were wrong. For example, the “fact” that Amalthea is Jupiter’s innermost moon and that it would measure about 200m long. Both “facts” are untrue, and both errors appeared in several publications in early 1979. (This from Ike’s report – told you it was worth reading.)


Originally posted by 8Michael12


I also have a link to a site showing that the effect of Bromine on the ozone was well known prior to Meier's "prophecy." For some reason the site won't load right now. I encourage others to google "bromine ozone" and maybe include a year in the query that is before the year Meier originally (supposedly) predicted it.


MH: Again, Meier's info also pertained to specific consequences from the ozone damage, all reported well after he was first told about them. More importantly and also again...he had NO access to such information and no reason to even be looking for it. Please show otherwise.


In Ike’s report, he quotes Mr. Horn saying that Meier was encouraged by Semjase to report the bromine information to a Dr. Michael McElroy. Dr. McElroy had been quoted on the subject by a New York Times article in February 1975, 3 days after the supposed date of the 7th contact. As Ike puts it, why would Meier be encouraged to report this info to a person that already knew about it?

The consequences of ozone damage were in fact quite well known long before 1975. Is it your position that the ozone layer’s role in blocking radiation was unknown to scientists prior to Meier’s “discovery” of this, or that the effects of this radiation on living organisms was unknown?


Originally posted by 8Michael12And you're being very selective in your criticism, what about all of the other events and information, if you haven't found proof that Meier preempted in his publication of it, what is that telling you? An example, the info re the magma chambers under Vesuvius.

Another example, the 236 confirmed UFO radar sightings above Meier' land by the Swiss military...who set up installations there because of what...birds flying around? That was from teh SWISS MILITARY. If a comparable thing happened here we'd be all over it, at least for a day until the idiots went back watching "reality" TV.


I already laid out my reasons for not going further into it. Perhaps if I had a series of paid lectures coming up about it I could make time to do the kind of research you suggest. But I have spent enough time looking into it. Like I said, the burden of proof is not on me, and I have found all the reasons I need to disbelieve, based on my “one strike your out” standard, mentioned in my previous post.


Originally posted by 8Michael12


Lastly, I know it was posted here before, but I can't keep myself from putting it up again:
www.iigwest.com...

This Ike person has pinpointed a few instances where Meier's prophecies preceded (by only a few weeks) stories in well-read periodicals about many things he predicted. ...The most interesting part is that the press, as is common, made mistakes in their reporting. Even more interesting is that Meier made precisely the same mistakes. Coincidence?


MH: You really don't get it re the Jupiter info. It was NOT available to Meier when he published it in 1978 - since it wasn't discovered until 1979...and absolutely NOWHERE does Ike specify WHAT publications in WHAT languages were PROVEN to be available to Meier...four days before Stevens took the information - including the ten specific predictions you haven't mentioned and returned to the U.S. with them. Really, where are the thinking skills and the ability to thoroughly, comprehensively consider an enormous body of diverse information - THAT NO ONE HERE, RIGHT HERE, EVEN KNEW SQUAT ABOUT AT THE TIME - and six categories of still irreproducible physical evidence?


It’s true that I haven’t mentioned many (most) of the predictions. If I find even one that smells bad, that’s enough for me. Maybe one is not enough for you (or others) to force you to disbelieve. I don’t begrudge you your belief; I merely give reasons for my disbelief.

And how would one PROVE what was or was not available to Meier? The New York Times is available all around the world. Can anyone PROVE that someone read a particular issue of the NYTon a particular date?

As to the rest, see the above about the 1982 publication date. If that’s wrong, then show us.


Originally posted by 8Michael12


The huge volume of writings by Meier and others on this entire situation makes at-home spare time investigation of this matter extremely difficult and time consuming. Because of this, I haven't looked much further into it. Like I said, I have satisfied myself as to the veracity of the story. At least I looked into it with some effort.


MH: If you are satisfied after that paltry effort than it's probably best to not even look further, really. What on earth do you think would happen if you start to have reasonable doubt about your quickly drawn conclusions and begin to see something that was formulated and effected, over the past 63 years, by people who were not only light years beyond you in intelligence but have done their best to not blow our brains out of our poor, overly self-impressed little ego-inflated minds?


The idea that there exist persons that are light years beyond me in intelligence seems doubtful to me. And believe me, my effort was not paltry (any effort in this area cannot be paltry, there is so much out there about the case.) I don’t do this for a living, like some people. I made enough effort to find a handful of problems with what you have said about Meier, before I found Ike’s report on James Randi’s site. The truth is, I found out about the earthquake-oil connection right? You say you didn’t see that. Ike couldn’t find it either. I must have done some work then, wouldn’t you say?

I discovered, on my own, that scientists had prior knowledge of many of the things that Meier was (according to you) supposed to have found out before their discovery. Ike’s entire report is based on questionable publication dates, as I see it. I did my research based on your stated dates of contacts, and still I found out that many of these supposedly “unknown” things were either known or suspected prior to your dates. In fact, it turned out that every piece of your “evidence” that I looked into was fitting into this kind of pattern. Like I said, that was enough for me. No one was paying me for this and I had other things to do, so I quit looking. At least I didn’t just dismiss it out of hand.

My real problem lies with the inference by you that these things were absolute unknowns when they weren’t. You should have said something to this effect in that often copied and pasted essay about the “Absolute Proof…” of whatever it was. That would lend you yourself more credibility in my eyes (though it would do nothing for that of Mr. Meier.)

I’m not going to buy Meier’s books. That’s basically what it boils down to. He ain’t getting my cash. What’s the big deal?

Let’s see, I am accused of making a paltry effort, having quickly drawn conclusions, light years behind some people in intelligence,… am I flamed yet?


Originally posted by 8Michael12


I have found other reasons for disbelief that I have not stated here. To me, one example of a prophecy being even somewhat suspect is enough reason to dismiss the entire thing as a hoax. This may seem a high standard, and I'd agree that it is. It could be too high, that is, it could lead to something that is real being proclaimed a hoax. I say that such is life. Even a hoaxer can make millions of dollars from the kinds of "believers" that provide the numbers of hits to a site that Horn has bragged about here. The problem is that it is too easy to create and maintain any hoax unless this kind of high "one strike your out" standard is applied.

Hopefully I won't get flamed by Horn for disagreeing.


MH: As I said, not inflamed at all, just depressed by the crop of shallow "thinkers" and their quick, glibly drawn and uninformed comclsuions. Don't I wish there was millions of dollars to be made from people reading a ton of free articles that I've posted! Oh the (presumably) American mind and its stupid obsession with the money motive. Hey, not everybody has the same shallow, stupid, valueless values that we do.

Here's the deal as far as I'm concerned. I've visited with Meier, several of the other photographers, witnesses, etc. over the past five years. I've tried to trip him up with trick questions. I've watched, listened, asked and learned. And it's painfully obvious that what passes for thinking, intellectual honesty and integrity HERE is a pathetic joke, probably part of the reason that, since at least 1981 (if not back in the 1950s) the ETs were already describing the "devastation, destruction and annihilation" that (unless we DO something about it) awaits this country, largely due to the foreign policies that have been in effect here for at least 60 years. And do you think that just one of the clever folks on this, or any of the other forums has invested a fraction of their admittedly small amount of "investigation" into the character, qualifications, policies, etc. of the parasitic bottom feeders that are the majority of leaders this government? I doubt it.


Now I’m a glib, non-thinking, intellectually dishonest pathetic joke that is accomplice to the destruction of the planet. Does this mean I am now flamed? No?

It’s true that Horn has posted a lot of info on the web, and it’s free. It’s also true that the sites that give this free info don’t say how much of it was available to Meier prior to his prediction, and they don’t tell you that the claimed prediction dates are questionable. One thing is very common among these sites though. That is a link to a site where you can buy Meier’s books, t-shirts, posters, etc.

As for the rest, maybe you should visit one of the political areas at this site. Quite a bit of investigation into politicians goes on in there. Here we talk about UFOs.



Originally posted by 8Michael12
When Meier was told, in January, that the sad truth is that hman beings have learned nothing from about 30 years of published prophecies - due to a winning combination of arrogance and ignorance - the only word his ET friend used to describe the coming changes to our world was "apocalyptic".

So, my suggestion for the know it alls and the too lazy to learn anythings is this. Use the free resources available to research and think if you wish but please no more griping until you've duplicated all of the categories of Meier's physical evidence and until you've dragged your butts over to Switzerland to examine the fingerprints while they're still available. As I said before, there's NO excuse for your not doing so IF you really want to know for certain if the case is authentic.

That's it then, exalt ignorance or do the work.


We have learned nothing from a bunch of claimed “predictions” that have no real supporting evidence behind the claims? If these aliens actually existed, I’d have to say that I am “light years beyond” them in intelligence. I guess it never occurred to them to maybe try to let everyone else in on the deal. After several decades, you’d think they’d come to the realization that keeping all this just between them and Billy was not exactly working out.


Originally posted by 8Michael12
I'm gone, six lectures to do, more radio and a time to refocus on correspondence from people who really care about their future and taking repsonsibility for their lives. Oh yeah, since this preson mentioned the problem with the prophecies, go read the Henoch Prophecies and Contact 251. See if you recognize any of the things that have already occurred since they were written and published. And see if you really are looking forward to the other ones occurring, especially in places like the U.S., UK, Europe, etc. And have a nice day. from here on, I'll only answer direct emails as time permits.

Talk amongst yourselves.

Yeah right. Good luck with that.

Harte



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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I see that you have set up a rather high standard here, one that’s really hard to meet. I’m talking about your “one strike and you’re out” thing. I wonder if you apply that equally in all areas of life, I mean, you’re obviously a guy that can’t be fooled with; one mistake and, hey, you’re outta here.

But that’s the standard you want to set so, okay, one strike it is and so I guess - you’re outta here.

You accept and reiterate that, “The earliest confirmable publication date that Ike was able to find for information on Jupiter from the 115th contact was in 1982.” You and Ike both realize that if Meier’s info on Io was published when he said it was, and as Stevens attested, that all of your pomp and confidence isn’t worth anything. If Meier said that then (as Prof. Joseph Veverka said) then he’s right…and he’s the real deal.

So Ike made the mistake that he accused Meier and Stevens of making, i.e. an unsubstantiated claim as to how and when Meier actually published the material. Ike committed the self-discrediting act of accusing Stevens of lying in order to make it fit his prejudice…and to avoid having to admit that Meier was right. There are two more witnesses to the March 9 date or earlier, Lee & Brit Elders. They can confirm what Stevens and Meier both said. If Ike had wanted to speak with any of them and test their credibility and honesty for himself nothing prevented it. Nothing prevented me from doing it, why not him…and you?

Big strike, you’re out of here.

Now if you want to accuse them of lying too, why not do so and prove it when you do. Since the Elders are entrusted with access to the highly confidential records and facilities of international banks and Fortune 500 companies and maintain professional relationships with people in high levels of governmental, military and intelligence fields, and Stevens is a professional with almost 60 years in the field, go ahead, parade your expertise before them and let them know that you, as an expert in (what field did you say it was?) are accusing them of lying.

By now you should be back in the locker room but let me offer a couple other thoughts for you to consider on your way home. Regarding McElroy, did it occur to you that he might be interested in learning about the full range of damaging effects in his area of study from those who might know more about? If a farmer approached a top flight scientist with information that the scientist only recently made public, and the scientist was bright enough to realize that there was no way such information could be accessible to this farmer in rural Switzerland (and even less reason why he would be interested in knowing it and contacting the scientist), maybe he might…pay attention, kinda like astrophysicist David Froning (McDonnell-Douglas, etc.) did when he became aware of Meier’s knowledge regarding tachyon propulsion and above light speed travel velocities.

Regarding the consequences of A-bomb testing, what was at the very least not publicly known was it’s release of “elementary radiations” in the high UV range destroying the ozone, leading to increased UV destroying elements in the food chain and causing genetic mutations, damage to the planet’s magnetosphere, rotation, etc. The fact that all of this was first told to Meier in 1956, repeated as well as re-transcribed and disseminated in 1975-76 begs many questions as to access to information, interest in even finding and disseminating such information, etc.
And the (unalterable) documents, that I myself first got in 1986, were available in German starting in 1975 and were indeed disseminated, first in Europe, then in the U.S. also in English.

How many strikes should you get?

It’s kind of funny how suddenly people have their “reasons for not going further into it”, one strike and all that, of course. This is just another – believe me, just ANOTHER – example of someone who has the “ah ha, it’s obviously a hoax” thing moving along and then, while he isn’t even correct on all that he bases his confident claims of hoax on, as soon as some silly little thing like the Swiss military reporting 236 UFO radar sightings RIGHT ABOVE Meier’s land occurs, well, it’s just plain inconvenient to delve into that.

And the Vesuvius info, as well as a few dozen other of the ongoing corroborative information, you ignored all that too. One strike again? Come on, a little credibility on your part, please.


Ah yes, my friend who struck out here on the first pitch is talking about belief/disbelief, never mind research, investigation conducted by military and private investigators, scientists, etc. No, give me one thing that I think I can discredit and I’m out of here. I’d love to see your voting record and your rationale for it, as well as how you apply your one strike theory in all other areas of your life.

Regarding the availability of published information to Meier, since Ike and you are claiming that it WAS available to him, it’s up to YOU to prove it. Let me help you out. Meier lives in a tiny village that has about 10 houses. No library, no university, etc. He certainly didn’t have the internet back then, or before I did when I started researching the information. The investigators never found any evidence that the NYT (or any other of the presumed publications) was being delivered anywhere remotely near where Meier lived. They were investigating, so they checked.

Further, he had no motive to go and accumulate the most diverse, even obscure, information on a wide variety of topics and equally he didn’t have the opportunity or the time…as anyone who’d actually researched the case would know, which excludes anyone who can’t logically think their way through a complex real life mystery, one that indeed was complex enough to require six years of investigation by about a half-dozen highly competent specialists and numerous outside experts, who used state of the art equipment to evaluate physical evidence that, if it had been hoaxed by a farmer, would have not only been easily detectable but wouldn’t have required the resources employed to determine it.

Please remember, the investigators did the research with their own money, in a situation where there was not only no guarantee but only a remote possibility that they could ever get their investment back – if their motive was strictly monetary, as you seem to think it is for people in this case.

If one thing appears to be (even though it may not be) wrong it’s enough to get you to cut and run, while for those of us who’ve been actively researching the case, it’s the dozens and dozens of things that are inexplicably right that keep us intrigued.

As for your doubts about there being smarter folks “out there” than you, well, maybe your mom and dad told you that you were a genius but so far you’ve put yourself in the just about average category of skeptics and debunkers for your simple and common inability to think comprehensively, the same inadequacy that plagues your compatriots. It doesn’t plague genuine researchers nor hinder detectives, lawyers, etc. but it does confound you.

But your overly self-estimated thinking abilities simply fail you in that area, sufficiently so that you count yourself out on the first strike. A simple cure would be to take yourself to the place where all the events occurred – and are still occurring. There’s something both clarifying and humbling about having to walk one’s sorry butt up and down the hills and valleys trying to figure out how Meier “hoaxed” all of the still irreproducible evidence in these conditions, with one hand when the skeptics can’t do it using both and using contemporary technologies.

Maybe you’re not made of such material and will content yourself to feel…content. That’s fine, it’s for people who really do the work and think – not believe – that the truth will be accessible. If you continue your debunking efforts based on your type of “thinking” you would eventually find yourself, as the others do, effectively having to credit Meier with super, above genius abilities in at least a couple of dozen disciplines that neither you, nor he for that matter, could possibly have. They certainly wouldn’t be possessed by anyone who walks away on the first strike, one that turns out to be against them for their own erroneous thinking and accepting of faulty conclusions drawn by themselves and others.

If you were a THINKER you would at least wonder about this. You might say to yourself, okay, it appears that I found some evidence that some (if not many) things were known either before or very close to the time that Meier published them but…based on REASONING, taking into consideration Meier’s access (or lack of it) to such information in his own language, his lack of a reason to even look for such information, let alone his lack of time, opportunity and resources to do so while attending to all of the responsibilities and demands already in evidence regarding his life at the time, and considering the past history, dating back to 1964, of his UFO photos and the article about him in an Indian newspaper, having this credible witness to these events in India that has come forward now to validate his claims, the presence of more than 120 current witnesses, the witnesses who all took and passed lie detector tests, the five other photographers, the six categories of still irreproducible physical evidence, the scientific experts who authenticated it, the…well, if you would THINK you might get the point.

Not only that, you’d do what I and a few other people did who, unlike you, realized they actually didn’t know everything in life and went to meet the man and the witnesses and see the land, etc. first hand. We did that because we weren’t arrogant, one strike and you’re out fools; we wanted to find out for ourselves, something that’s pretty hard to do if you don’t do the work that requires getting off your butt to do it.

And common sense alone should tell you that if something was indeed known before Meier published but it couldn’t be located until now by people searching for it on the internet – which didn’t exist then – that the amazing thing is that the man knew it, and possibly other details subsequently confirmed even later. Why did such a brilliant fellow as yourself not think of this? But it’s also telling that you left out so many things, such as the aforementioned Swiss military report a slam-dunk for anyone thinking comprehensively here.

It’s kinda like this. The Swiss military decides for, some quaint reason, to set up a radar installation. They have all of the countryside in which to do so. Why do they choose the precise area where Meier claims to have decades of ongoing contacts? More importantly, once they have set it up, what are the results? Are there perhaps one or two anomalous, easily dismissed blips? Are there maybe twenty or more, sufficient to warrant a little closer scrutiny? No. There are some 236 UFO radar sightings right above Meier’s land! Quick, get the armchair genius who’s so confident of his “intelligence” to explain it – while for any thinking person every other supporting fact now takes on even greater significance.

And only the most petty, small minded and idiotic persons could try to reduce something of this magnitude to their own personal obsession with money. A man who’s survived 21 assassination attempts for his troubles, and who’s turned down movie offers for VERY big bucks on his life story, isn’t concerned about selling a moron a t-shirt, and only a moron could distill that as the meaning of the entire matter.

The Plejaren and Meier realized that it was simply too much to directly approach people whose egos couldn’t handle the inescapable proof being, literally, brought down upon them but would require a slow, patient, oblique approach that, even then, would guarantee no success. Members of a species who claw over each other to attain whatever they can at the expense of each other, themselves and their world, so sophisticated and knowledgeable…are best approached from a long way off. And we all exclude ourselves, “Oh no, that’s not me, I’m the sharpest tool in the shed” but in the same breath let us know about “one strike” and all that.

Well, in case you didn’t know it, the real game isn’t won or lost with one strike and you’re out; it’s how many runs that cross the plate that determines the winner. The fact that you didn’t see the score and who won the game is your problem, not mine and certainly not Meier’s.

And just for a reality check, not that it will matter to you, a friend of mine just got back from 2 1/2 months at the center. He’s the guy who took the pictures of the seven-fingered handprints. While he was there were, of course, sightings there both during the day and night, multiple witnesses, as usual. The only difference is that for the people that have lived there for many years – and had the experiences firsthand – the UFOs aren’t the important thing anymore at all but the smugness, arrogance and ignorance of those who sit on their butts, playing with their, ahem, software, and pontificating about things that they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about, well that is even more remarkable than the UFOs.

And I hope you don’t feel flamed, perhaps just appropriately foolish.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 01:08 PM
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Some people do, in fact do more then sit on thier asses and pontificate. The sad truth is, even those who do, and come to different conclusions, are uninformed idiots as far as your concerned.

Again, your "scientific" experts dont authenticate a damned thing. (see prior post)

Any "he told me on such and such a date" by the Elders or Stevens regarding any predictions Meier made is about as independant as nothing. The bottom line is those people made monetary gains and got alot of publicity from that case. Forget it, it doesnt fly.

Where are records of the daylight and nighttime sightings that continue? Photos? Video? Again, where are the independant "outsider" reports?

Who is the source of the radar sightings? The military of any country isnt likely to just spout this information...so who said it? Where's the evidence reports from the military to back it up?

Where are the police or authority reports of murder attempts?? Has anyone ever been caught? I know one "assassin" was a woman whom Meier claims he is friends with now. Murder attempts are serious, and thats in any country...so where are the police (or any criminal) reports?

And for the last time, how can *anyone* reproduce metal samples, film and photos to the satisfaction of the pro-Meier supporters when there is NOTHING TO COMPATRE THEM TO! Out of your touted thousands of photos and film, you have NO original data to be tested.

None, yet you state to Steven Greer: "To that end, allow me to offer you what I offered Jordan Kronick, i.e.
full access to any and all evidence and proof in the Meier case and
full cooperation in making it known to the public."

What horsesh&^t.

You cant offer anything, because in your own admission there is no testable data left "available". One can only guess as to why there is none, but when faced with that question of data to be independantly tested your answer is "we've moved past those concerns".

Well guess what, the rest of the world hasnt.

Until you can put up original data for everyone, and offer TRUE access to original material, youre gonna have a hell of a time trying to make this case "real".



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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Stop making demands and go there to find out for yourself.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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Then stop regurgitating this crap expecting people to buy it.



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