Warning! Watching these videos could do a 180 on your views on Freemasonry

You can thank Gerald Gardner for that, he belived that if he blended Freemason rituals with Wicca, it would help "flesh out" the practicioners belives. This was started ~1949, and aided by his book High Magic's Aid.

It should be noted, that Gearald was not a member of any blue lodge, but of the masonic "offshot" ( I am trying to be nice here) Ordo Templi Orientis.

By now I assume you know how the general masonic population feals about O.T.O.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by wiggy]

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Will you admit that the rituals both Freemasonry and Witchcraft practice have many similarities?

Well I suppose Freemasonry is similar in structure to many organizations, but as with most things the devil is in the details. (maniacal laughter)

Originally posted by wiggy
It should be noted, that Gearald was not a member of any blue lodge, but of the masonic "offshot" ( I am trying to be nice here) Ordo Templi Orientis.

from the gardnerian wiccan 3rd degree.

O Secret of Secrets, That art hidden in the being of all lives, Not thee do we adore, For that which adoreth is also thou. Thou art That, and That am I. [Kiss I am the flame that burns in the heart of every man, And in the core of every star. I am life, and the giver of life. Yet therefore is the knowledge of me the knowledge of death. I am alone, the Lord within ourselves, Whose name is Mystery of Mysteries

and from the O.T.O.'s Gnostic mass written by Crowley

O secret of secrets that art hidden in the being of all that lives, not Thee do we adore, for that which adoreth is also Thou. Thou art That, and That am I. I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star. I am Life, and the giver of Life; yet therefore is the knowledge of me the knowledge of death. I am alone; there is no God where I am .

Originally posted by wiggy
By now I assume you know how the general masonic population feals about O.T.O.

I don't think the general masonic population really cares about the O.T.O. one way or the other. in this forum for example I know of one mason who really doesn't like the O.T.O., one who is in the O.T.O., several who never really commented so I assume they might not like this or that part but it's no big deal to them. And several mason who may not agree with the teachings but still have some respect for them.

I dont quite understand, that is exactley what I said. I said he blended OTO ( actually I said freemason, slip of the tounge) with wicca, I just did not know to that extent. Looks like he was a little lazy, or had writers block one night.

Most will denounce Crowley lickeditty split. like rehearsed even.

But other than that, you are right, the OTO does not get any attention.

Not like the Golden Dawn, who go around sneaking enrollment invitations into books in the occult section of big bookstores! I guess I should have kept the invites instead of leaving them in the books, but hey.

Pretty interesting, if you think about it.

Do they decide on what page to put the invite as well?

Originally posted by wiggy
I dont quite understand, that is exactley what I said.

yep, I was showing evidence to support your claim.

Originally posted by akilles
Most will denounce Crowley lickeditty split. like rehearsed even.

I havent seen that. They will denounce the "fact" that he was a Mason. And according to their traditions he wasn't.

Not like the Golden Dawn, who go around sneaking enrollment invitations into books in the occult section of big bookstores! I guess I should have kept the invites instead of leaving them in the books, but hey.

That would be HOMSI or as they are now known as the Esoteric order of the Golden Dawn. Lets just say they don't have great support in the occult comunity.



[edit on 8/11/2005 by Cug]

Oh, sorry, my misunderstanding

Originally posted by akilles
Most will denounce Crowley lickeditty split. like rehearsed even.

But other than that, you are right, the OTO does not get any attention.

Not like the Golden Dawn, who go around sneaking enrollment invitations into books in the occult section of big bookstores! I guess I should have kept the invites instead of leaving them in the books, but hey.

Pretty interesting, if you think about it.

Do they decide on what page to put the invite as well?

So..let me get this straight. Freemasons do not support Crowley?

And if some do, why?

After reading his history here he appeared to be a sick and confused individual. I mean, his childhood was pretty bad, and he was involved in some disturbing occult sex acts.

www.channel4.com...

Originally posted by eudaimonia

So..let me get this straight. Freemasons do not support Crowley?

And if some do, why?

Personal preferences. Contrary to what the anti's think, freemasons actually have the ability to think for themselves and make up their mind on any subject they want.

After reading his history here he appeared to be a sick and confused individual. I mean, his childhood was pretty bad, and he was involved in some disturbing occult sex acts.

www.channel4.com...

That's just a typical hatchet job.

Originally posted by Cug
That's just a typical hatchet job.

Well, what parts of his history do you think they left out? Will it be enough for me to say, "Yeah, he's not such a bad guy afterall". I just don't understand how you can proudly display his writings and yet at the same time be aware of all the awful things he did.

Which awful things are you talking about? there is just too many misconceptions, myths, and plain old lies out there to know what ones your talking about.. and to comment on them all would take WAY to long.




[edit on 8/12/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Cug
What awful things are you talking about?

I'm just reading what's out there:

1. tortured a cat at 11 to test if it had nine lives.
2. sacrificed small animals in his magic rituals.
3. summoned and dispatched demons through his magic.
4. advocated pedophilia, bestiality and necrophiliac cannibalism through his poetry.
5. wrote pro-German propaganda for a New York publisher .
6. a racist.
7. a goat was sacrificed while penetrating his mistress Leah Hirsig.
8. addicted to heroin and coc aine.
9. abandoned his first wife and child.
10. declared christianity to be dead.

He called himself The Great Beast 666.

From The Great Beast, 334

I will work the work of wickedness

I will kill my heart

I will be loud and adulterous

I will be covered with jewels and rich garments.

I will be shameless before all men

I will, for token thereof, will freely prostitute my body to the lusts of each and every living creature that shall desire it

I claim the Mystery of Mysteries, BABALON the Great, and the Number 156, and the robe of the Woman of Whoredomes and the Cup of Abominations.



I say again, how can anyone admire this

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I'm just reading what's out there:

1. tortured a cat at 11 to test if it had nine lives.
2. sacrificed small animals in his magic rituals.
3. summoned and dispatched demons through his magic.
4. advocated pedophilia, bestiality and necrophiliac cannibalism through his poetry.
5. wrote pro-German propaganda for a New York publisher .
6. a racist.
7. a goat was sacrificed while penetrating his mistress Leah Hirsig.
8. addicted to heroin and coc aine.
9. abandoned his first wife and child.
10. declared christianity to be dead.

Kindly quote your scholarly sources for these ten items. I know there are some "sources" out there for some of these but I would like to see the quality of your documentation and if you can back up your statements with reasonable evidence. Comes with being a quality poster, right?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Smacks of an agenda... Are you sure you're not trying to say something else entirely?

mirthful one, you're a mason?
you're derision technique is highly advanced. unmasonly, one might wonder(introspection isn't just for subversive program monkeys, anymore)
don't we all have agendas to "do" anything at all? charities, dates, movies, mergers, enterprise, war, the opposite of war(i forget the word), ee tee see.

just sayin'.
i don't know if you're seein' what i am.
i'm the monkey with his hands over his ears.

Originally posted by Stegosaur

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I'm just reading what's out there:

1. tortured a cat at 11 to test if it had nine lives.
2. sacrificed small animals in his magic rituals.
3. summoned and dispatched demons through his magic.
4. advocated pedophilia, bestiality and necrophiliac cannibalism through his poetry.
5. wrote pro-German propaganda for a New York publisher .
6. a racist.
7. a goat was sacrificed while penetrating his mistress Leah Hirsig.
8. addicted to heroin and coc aine.
9. abandoned his first wife and child.
10. declared christianity to be dead.

Kindly quote your scholarly sources for these ten items. I know there are some "sources" out there for some of these but I would like to see the quality of your documentation and if you can back up your statements with reasonable evidence. Comes with being a quality poster, right?

Thanks in advance.

Various websites. Kindly google them yourself, I'll guarantee you'll find them rather quickly.

This isn't the kind of stuff I'd make up. I don't have the imagination for it. Apparently, Crowley did.

Veni, vidi, googli.

And all I could find were hoax sites and/or rabidly misinformed anti-Crowleyisms with no basis in fact (but by golly an awful lot of hot air).

Help me out here, Eud...you made the claims, it's really not up to us to search for your sources. That's not how it works

What are your sources for this stuff?

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Various websites. Kindly google them yourself, I'll guarantee you'll find them rather quickly.

This isn't the kind of stuff I'd make up. I don't have the imagination for it. Apparently, Crowley did.

So no documentation to support your statements. How appropriate.

However, thank you for putting your blatant refusal to back up your own claims in black and white for all to see; it speaks volumes about your true ability to "separate the wheat from the chaff" in the academic sense. You might want to work on that little issue if you expect to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
1. tortured a cat at 11 to test if it had nine lives.

Not a good thing, but he did not torture the cat. He killed it believing if it have 9 lives it would not die, poor kitty. A stupid thing to do.

2. sacrificed small animals in his magic rituals.

that happened twice. once was a frog that he was going to have for dinner anyway, he did a mini passion play with it. The next was a Chicken but to tell the truth I have forgoten what the the story was. But it was not a a normal occurrence.

While he was in India, he did watch some Hindu sacrifices as an observer.

3. summoned and dispatched demons through his magic.

This is a case of know knowing what Magick is. As Crowley wrote in the introduction to the Goetia (one of the "instruction" books on calling "demons") "The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human mind." Magick and psychology are pretty much the same thing with diffrent terms and practices, but the result is the same.

4. advocated pedophilia, bestiality and necrophiliac cannibalism through his poetry.

Your talking about the book of poems "White Stains". Crowley's idea for this book was to refute the findings of Richard von Krafft-Ebing's (1840-1902) 1893 Psychpathia Sexualis. The idea of von Krafft-Ebing's book was that sexual aberrations were the result of physiological disease.

But in any case it was a book of fiction, do you think Stephen King advocated the distruction of the world when he wrote The Stand?, or was he promoting rabid dogs in Cujo?

5. wrote pro-German propaganda for a New York publisher.

I guess you didn't read the pages where you got this info. I'll just quote rotton.com here. (where you got the crowley-buddah pic.)

Crowley wrote pro-German propaganda for a New York publisher which, he explained, was intended to hurt the Germans by making them look ridiculous for having such bad propaganda written for them. In one stroke, he turned his bad prose and treasonous leanings into a victory for freedom and democracy.

There is no proof as to whether Crowley was a) sincerely trying to sabotage the Germans and b) working for British intelligence in this effort, as he claimed. Crowley counted some fairly significant British military figures among his students. "It could have happened" is about as far as you can reasonably go.

From my research I have a feeling what happened is Crowley contacted someone with this idea and they just told him ok thinking what do they have to lose, but never officially OKing it. I have read photocopies of some of this stuff.. and it really was WAY over the top.

6. a racist.

Well for the time, Crowley was far less racist than most people, yes he used the "N" word but so did everybody at the time. What Crowley was is classist, much like every other rich person in England at the time. (The BBC's Victorian Manor House reality program that PBS had on was a good example how the Victorian era upper class treated the servant class)

7. a goat was sacrificed while penetrating his mistress Leah Hirsig.

Frankly this is debatable, the one source, of questionable accuracy, was a story by Mary Butts, here is a short quote about the incident from a libel trial report in the press.

The Times, April 11th 1934 (1st day of trial)
LAW REPORT, APRIL 10, HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE, KING'S BENCH DIVISION, "Black Magic" : Libel Action Against Authoress., Crowley V Constable and Co., Limited and Others. Before Mr. Justice Swift and a Special Jury",

"Crowley had a temple in Cefalu in Italy. He was supposed to practice black magic, and one day a baby was said to have disappeared mysteriously. There was also a goat there.

This all pointed to Black Magic, so people said, and the inhabitants of the village were frightened of him. That was quite inaccurate. No child disappeared mysteriously, and the only goat on the premise was kept for its milk."

Frankly if Crowley did such a thing he would of written about it, like he did with some other distasteful things.

8. addicted to heroin and coc aine.

2 things to note, One they were both legal at the time. and the Heroin was perscribed as a treatment for asthma, something that was very common in Crowley's time. Here is a pic of a asthma drug that contains heroin.

9. abandoned his first wife and child.

This is simple.. he did no such thing. What the bbc story is referring to is when Crowley, Rose (his first wife), and his daughter finished their trip across china on horseback during the winter of 1905-6 they ended up in French Indo-china (Now Vietnam) On March 22nd 1906. There he sent his tired wife home while he traveled to America, he was back home to England on June 2nd of 1906. Not exactly abandonment now is it?

10. declared christianity to be dead.

He sure did. was there a reason he should play nice with Christianity?

He called himself The Great Beast 666.

And he also said that 666 means the sun and you could call him little sunshine. (Under oath i might add). And way there is a non-christian reason behind 666 and he did like to freak out the "straights" so to speak.

From The Great Beast, 334

I will work the work of wickedness
I will kill my heart
I will be loud and adulterous
I will be covered with jewels and rich garments.
I will be shameless before all men
I will, for token thereof, will freely prostitute my body to the lusts of each and every living creature that shall desire it

I claim the Mystery of Mysteries, BABALON the Great, and the Number 156, and the robe of the Woman of Whoredomes and the Cup of Abominations.

Well the book the great beast is another hatchit job, and is the only record of this anywhere so grain of salt here.. (Note this is said to be what Crowley required his sex magick partners to say.)

I say again, how can anyone admire this

WOW! it's so shocking to see someone in a happy buddha costume!

The thing to remember is most Thelemites follow the teachings of Crowley, not the actions of Crowley. The person and the message are not the same.

Originally posted by Masonic LightFirst, I don't see anything extravagant in any "flower of life"

Does ne1 else notice the all see-ing eyes plastered all over the flower of life??

lol edited because i posted in the wrong place


[edit on 12-8-2005 by Fiorina 161]