BLACKGUARD :

in my opinion i " get the point " perfectly - these preformrs can only preform ther " magic " in locations they control preciesly

copperfeild , blaine , angel et all -- have NEVER preformed any of thier major stunts - as a ad-hoc endeavour at a location they do not control , sans props , lighting and crowd control .

ergo IMHO they are utterly dependant on thier toys . and have zero paranormal powers .

just because you cannot figure out what is happening " behind the curtain " to power the stunt , is irrelevant

the fact that it cannot be done without the curtain present -- is all you need to know .

Wow Ignorant Ape, finally someone else with the sense to say ITS NOT REAL.
Is it me or do these guys want to believe too much.

I already posted a vid for them showing criss angel "levitating" a woman, but you can clearly see his magic wires, is that not enough for them....

Originally posted by chris01621I'm not saying these things aren't impressive, they are, but some guy's on here are talking like Criss Angle is a real (Sorcerer) which he just isn't.
[edit on 6-10-2006 by chris01621]

I guess you and ignorant ape share a sensibility and certainty that I clearly do not. In my past, many times, in many places, and with many different people, or sometimes alone, I have witnessed things that don't obey any physical laws which I am aware of... unless they are as you say 'not real'. Maybe they are not. I watched the vid with the wire. I saw it too. But why didn't any of those people present see it? If it is obvious enough to be seen on a recording, it could not have escaped the attention of nearby eye-witnesses. So, either they were all just actors, paid to pretend to be passers-by who watch the levitation and feign amazement. I also watched the Angel vid showing how to fake a minor levitation using a fake leg... Your conclusion is that if you see an explanation such as paid off audience members, a wire or other mechanical rig could possibly have been used, based on your information - which is a recording, that is proof enough for you that it was. First, a recording is a poor source for a decision, compared to being there. Second, just because it is possible does not prove that it was used. Third, just because a magician shows you how he does one ilusion does not prove that all illusions he or any other performer does, are henceforth proven to have similar, conventional explanations. I accept the fact that most people would very likely agree with your views, and few are willing to allow the possibility to exist that some of these acts may not obey the laws of physics as is presently taught and generally understood. I not only allow that possibility but am willing to go one further. I have seen things which convinced me that such things are real. If I told you I believed people can see the future, or travel out of body, or use telepathy, you would likely disagree that that is real. It is a common reaction, trust me. But, I do not share those views. I have a different perspective. Not that I don't understand where you are coming from, I do. Were I in your shoes, I may feel the same. After taking my brother and parents to see Copperfield live, none of them doubted that there must have been some mechanical trick to all of his illusions. I, and they, know that just because we can't see the method used doesn't mean there wasn't one. But where we disagreed was regarding the chance that maybe he really did levitate, etc. They don't believe that is an option. I do, and even accept that option as my best explanation so far given the information I have. I am often wrong, and may be about that, but it doesn't matter to me whether I am or not. All that I am concerned about is what I can come up with as a conclusion. We all must make our own minds up on it. I really don't mind the fact most people disagree with me, and many express the sentiment that I am less than astute in my critical analysis of the subject. You are entitled to think what you will of me. But if you feel the need to convince me that I am missing something, and prove that you are right and I am wrong, by all means, tell me as much as you can about why I should change my mind. It is not my rule that I don't change my opinion, and upon finding out a new and more acceptable (to me, of course) explanation. Most of my life, I doubted that paranormal claims were ever genuine. I still feel most of them are not, but now feel I have seen, heard, and experienced enough credible data and evidence to change that view. I now have no qualms about stating I believe paranormal abilities and events are 'real'. That is me. My feeling is that anyone who is sincerely curious as to the world and actions of magicians such as Blaine, Angel, and Copperfield, among many others, might benefit greatly in their understanding of such things by attending performances. Pay the $50, get the best seat you can, because closer is better, and do your very best to absorb as much of what goes on as you possibly can. The first Copperfield show made me giggle many times, since I was in row 7, and had a very good view of what was being done on stage, and even a foot from my right arm, in the aisle, at one point. It was, for me, a very worthwhile experience. I have also been to see a couple of mediums who both had very solid reputations, and many testimonials to their abilities. One of them said things about deceased relatives of audience members that apparently only the relative could have known. How he did that I don't know, but I talked to him after the show, and found him to be a genuine, sincere, modest, and somewhat quirky person. In my view, neither of these mediums were fakes. Many, many are...... I wouldn't event want to guess the ratio of fakes to real ones. But I firmly believe that some of them are able to do things science has yet to understand or accept as being real. I hope that someday science is able to definitively prove one way or another that this stuff is real. Some people feel that they have already disproven all paranormal phenomena, but from what I have read on it, they have not done so beyond reasonable doubt.
I can't do any magic tricks, but I have done things myself that there is no current scientific explanation for. That proves nothing to anyone but me. Thanks for your input on the topic, I appreciate your candor.

Are we back in the dark ages? This would obviously be my first post. I hope I don't offend anyone right out of the gate though. Having read through each and every post on this topic, I'd like to offer something I've yet to see: old fashioned reason.

I am only referring to the people who "believe" in magic, not the people who recognize the obvious entertainment value in it. What's a more reasonable explanation for Copperfield flying? Or Blaine levitating? Or Angel being able to read minds via muscles? Or passing through glass? I certainly don't purport to be able to explain the ILLUSION behind every TRICK. I do know how Blaine "levitated" and Angel supposedly morphed through glass. Good old tricks to be certain, but I'm way more baffled by the large number of believers of magical powers.

There is several factors at work here. The biggest of which, is True Believer Syndrome. My dear mother has it in spades. No matter how much evidence I offer to the contrary, she still believes the biggest hoax of all time. Can you guess? I'm talking about god or a supreme being, or all knowing creator. Call him whatever you wish; God, Allah, Buddha, Jesus, Jebus, doesn't matter, it's all the same. There is obviously a reason that people want to believe... hope. Some people, my mother included, need hope. They've always had it and somehow believe they cannot live without it. That is it in a nutshell; people believe what they want to believe. And then, they find "evidence" to support their claim, and cast away anything that challenges it.

But magic? C'mon. ESP? Psychic powers? Ghosts? Dowsing? Bigfoot? Telekinesis?
I seriously could go on and on. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, claiming to be supernatural, that is, defying natural laws renders science impotent. (not the subject but rather the process) That is, if somehow one could break natural laws at will, like say gravity, as with levitation, it rearranges absolutely everything we know to be true, as proven by the scientific process. Another example would be, for the creationist (god) argument to be valid, it would render every life science invalid. That is; if the creationist theorists are correct, then there are serious problems with physics, cosmology, astronomy, geology, botany, zoology, paleontology and every other life science. Could it be that all these sciences are wrong in the same direction? Of course not, but creationism is most assuredly in conflict w/ them.

There is currently not one shred of evidence that a true miracle by definition has ever been performed. (a miracle being an act that defies or breaks natural laws) None. Why? It has certainly been claimed, but has never been properly recorded nor has a miracle ever been reproduced. If you believe otherwise, fine, the burden of proof always lies with one making the claim. I know why people believe in mystical things; man always has. That's the motivation for making up god. We, as a highly evolved, thinking animal, have always been motivated to believe in things that best suits us. Wishful thinking is what creates the impetus for things like an "immortal soul". Too bad really, wishing, hoping and praying has absolutely zero effect on an outcome. Tell you what, defecate in one hand and wish in your other, and see which one fills up faster.

I'm seriously worried about this planet, but mostly this country. (America) If this forum is any indication, we are headed right back to the dark ages. Please, I'm begging you folks that believe in magical things; please don't drive on public roadways and if it's not too much to ask, don't vote.

Thanks

Originally posted by KingsXGood old tricks to be certain, but I'm way more baffled by the large number of believers of magical powers.

Some people, my mother included, need hope. They've always had it and somehow believe they cannot live without it. That is it in a nutshell; people believe what they want to believe.
But magic? C'mon. ESP? Psychic powers? Ghosts? Dowsing? Bigfoot? Telekinesis?
I seriously could go on and on. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, claiming to be supernatural, that is, defying natural laws renders science impotent. (not the subject but rather the process) That is, if somehow one could break natural laws at will, like say gravity, as with levitation, it rearranges absolutely everything we know to be true, as proven by the scientific process.
There is currently not one shred of evidence that a true miracle by definition has ever been performed. (a miracle being an act that defies or breaks natural laws) None. Why? It has certainly been claimed, but has never been properly recorded nor has a miracle ever been reproduced. If you believe otherwise, fine, the burden of proof always lies with one making the claim. I know why people believe in mystical things; man always has.Thanks

I do not want to believe, I can assure you of that.
I do not feel the need to hope... and I do not know if there is a God, either way, I don't need there to be one.
I have seen things which defy natural laws. I don't mean at a show. I mean at home, many times, my whole life.
I can not prove anything, but you could take my word for it....lol.
I don't think you know why I believe in mystical things, but I am sure I have written it in this thread more than once. It doesn't matter what you think of me, to me. If I had lived your life, I'd likely be saying just what you are.
Cheers.

I distinctly remember watching a "how its done" type show, but cant remember the name...
maybe that masked magician guy... but anyway...

The trick where they make a bus dissapear in front of a huge crowd of witnesses, was actually moved, by the same said witnesses...

People seem to forget, that when you are making tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars to perform a "miracle" witnesses are easy to furnish at about $10 per hr per person.

100 witnesses whom had "nothing to do with the magician" got purchased by same said magician for under $1000...

still lots of profit left over...
the average magic trick props probably cost twice that...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
100 witnesses whom had "nothing to do with the magician" got purchased by same said magician for under $1000...
the average magic trick props probably cost twice that...

You and I, and most people who have watched any reasonable amount of magic shows knows full well that many times our eyes are tricked, and the secret is a simple answer. Criss Angel often teaches how to do a trick on his show, and they are simple to do. Probably many magicians acts consist of nothing more than such tricks. You feel all tricks are similarly done. could be. But I do know that many times the audience is not paid off, and often no one can explain how it was done.
We don't know for sure. Your opinion may be right. Probably is.

i don't really like the "audiences are paid off" theory, although it may be true, because, to dismiss it, all it would take is just one of those audience members to come here on ATS and type his / her account about how that person was paid to do whatever...

hell, all it would take is just one single blog post on some random blog page and i would dismiss criss angel's work...

thankfully though, i haven't seen any of this...

have any of you???

ignorant ape, let me ask you this in all seriousness. What would you feel could explain this? You have a very vivid, detailed dream that is so interesting you tell a friend about it. A month later, to your surprise, that exact event occurs. I mean exact as though the dream was a video recording of the event from the perspective of where you were at the time. As well, a couple of things had to change, which were totally beyond your control, and unforeseen before the dream could play out in reality. For example, in your dream, someone you know was living somewhere different than they were in reality at the time.
Now, just so you understand that the fact you told someone the dream before it occured makes the psychologists theory that it was just a trick of the mind ruled out. What would you offer as a possible conventional explanation. Then, as a second part to my question. What if you had had that happen half a dozen times?

The reason you've not seen a "witness" post on here or somewhere else is because they've signed Non-Disclosure Agreements or Confidentiality Agreements. As with other purported "reality" type tv shows, the people generally consist of hungry, aspiring actors and if you understand how tv works, it makes sense.

The plant, or shill, is someone known to "be in on it", that pretends to be baffled. Rewatch the video of Angel and the window trick. You'll notice, once I tell you what to look for, that the "impromtu" helpers that hold the large piece of paper, that just so happens to be "perfect" and found conveniently in the top of the nearby dumpster, know exactly what to do, with VERY little instruction. There's also the milk crates conveniently placed nearby. And let's not forget about the guy that supposedly owns the business, who asks if he can watch from inside, further lending credibilty to the act. Anyhow, I won't completely spoil it, but watch how the helpers don't let go of the paper when Angel emerges until he stands upright on the milkcrate, blocking our view yet appearing to be regathering himself after having put his body through such a difficult process as morphing through glass. Also, notice how the glass is clearly not insulated or firmly set, as it would be if it were an actual business. You can actually hear it rattle at some point while they knock on it. See how many people happen to be on the backside of a business at once. One woman even has a box she's holding, so as to make it look as if she wandered out of the shipping department to see what all the excitement was about.


Which brings me to...
Blackguard wrote:
I have seen things which defy natural laws. I don't mean at a show. I mean at home, many times, my whole life.
I can not prove anything, but you could take my word for it....lol.
I don't think you know why I believe in mystical things, but I am sure I have written it in this thread more than once. It doesn't matter what you think of me, to me. If I had lived your life, I'd likely be saying just what you are.
Cheers.


I guess the best way I can reply to this is, that I too once believed in all these magical things I've mentioned, whether my claim was that I wanted to or not.
In retrospect however, it becomes clear that what I thought had a supernatural element at work, in fact had quite a reasonable explanation. This is why I follow the last reply with this. In retrospect, almost everything becomes clear. (monday morning quarterbacking comes to mind) But, one's eyes must be wide open and the mind that controls all the other five senses must be open enough to allow that there's a more reasonable explanation. And... I recognize your mileage has varied, as they say. I must give you credit Blackguard, you have remained consistently stable and not confrontational at all, which is surprising, given how many others take the opposite approach. I understand we have polar opposite viewpoints, but it's always nice not to resort to the typical pissing match.


Cheers right back at ya!

I guess the best way I can reply to this is, that I too once believed in all these magical things I've mentioned, whether my claim was that I wanted to or not.
In retrospect however, it becomes clear that what I thought had a supernatural element at work, in fact had quite a reasonable explanation. This is why I follow the last reply with this. In retrospect, almost everything becomes clear. (monday morning quarterbacking comes to mind) But, one's eyes must be wide open and the mind that controls all the other five senses must be open enough to allow that there's a more reasonable explanation.
ignorant ape

I have often learned later how totally fooled I have been. These half dozen or so events over the last 35 years are anomalies though. I can't fathom a reasonable explanation, if there is one. I am totally open to a reasonable explanation, in fact, I'd love one. I'd have a celebration if I was given one. But, alas, I can find none, and no one has told me one. After 35 years, many things occured which made me choose to take a stance. Find an acceptable, however impossible, explanation, (I didn't even have that at the time.) Now I have some, though they are impossible. I don't believe anything I haven't seen enough convincing proof to make me do so. Bigfoot supposedly lives in this area, but I'm not buying it.... no proof that I find credible. The problem I found is deciding who is relating a real inexplicable event, and who is a fraud. Most frauds are easy to spot, but I know I can be fooled. But, sometimes I believe people. Only because of my own past experiences, which have allowed me to allow for their experiences to be just as they say they are. Most people conclude that they just cannot be, and mine just cannot be, it is impossible. I know that. That bugged me for decades. Imagine how much that would bug you. Called either crazy, or a liar, or some other theory which shows that what I saw happen did not happen as I say it did. I may be wrong, of course, but I stand by my powers of perception, and say it happened just like I said. I can't say how its possible, and understand the ubiquitous disbelief, and don't mind if others doubt my sincerity. That said, thanks for the kind words.

Originally posted by KingsX
The reason you've not seen a "witness" post on here or somewhere else is because they've signed Non-Disclosure Agreements or Confidentiality Agreements. As with other purported "reality" type tv shows, the people generally consist of hungry, aspiring actors and if you understand how tv works, it makes sense.

i don't buy this, although it may be true

how would "they" know which paid audience member let the secret out, if one member posted here on ATS or another message board???

a person could just sign the agreement, watch and participate in the show, and then come to the world wide web and tell everyone all about it...

see???

I don't doubt that there are examples of charlatans, hoaxters, frauds, phonies, and unethical con artists who would pay people to pretend to be amazed. But, I know for certain that people levitate way up in the air, in full view of hundreds, if not thousands of people that paid to see that, as opposed to being paid. It is pretty likely that any and all manners of trickery, video editting, and general dishonesty are everywhere around us, especially in the realm of magicians. Some of it is quite innocent, imo. Penn and Teller are great. They expose such fakery with flair and style. They show how the trick is done, for all to see, as does Criss Angel in his tv show. But, not all of them. There are some that nobody has ever explained, not Randi, Penn and Teller, no one. The reason for that is worth pondering. Not one scientist out of the best schools, with the best minds, and the best marks, using the latest technology has shown how they do some of them. I'd have thought that someone would have by now, considering how many people are so eager to categorically state that it can be done. Maybe it can. Why hasn't it?
I will be ecstatic if someone does so. Of course they would have to show how it is done clearly enough that there is no doubt they have figured it out. It has to be more than just saying it can be done, they must physically replicate it. They are saying it can be done, so I feel it is fair to ask that they show me. If they don't want to, no problem. It's not that big a deal to me. I don't have to be shown how its done, but it would be interesting to me. Until then, they are just claims.

Blackguard!
I too have had some spooky experiances, I do believe some supernatural things,
I had an experiance with tarot cards that was so close to the truth, I have seen and felt spirits on some occasions, I dont beleive in bigfoot or the loch ness monster, but spiritual activity exists (anyone can try to dissuade me, but I have seen with my own eyes).
But illusionists are exactly that, ILLUSIONISTS, I dont beleive in sorcerers, maybe there is witchcraft, I dont know, but if a man can fly he would fly everywere, he would drop in at the show from the air, he wouldn't turn up in a car.

I like the points about him going through the window as I saw them too, if they were normal people they would drop the paper as soon as he came through, but they waited for the section of the window to be replaced.
Mere tricks are all they are.

Spirits-Y, Heaven and Hell - N, Afterlife - Y, God - N, Prayer - Y, Devil - N, Precognition - Y, Timetravel - N, etc. I don't base my beliefs on anything less than either my own experience or sources I find trustworthy. Trust is a risky thing, but I find that I don't trust a lot of sources that are accepted as the last word on the subject. If an unknown makes sense, and the world's scholars don't, I trust the unknown, after some feeling out. If flying is very taxing to do, and takes tremendous energy to achieve, that would be one other explanation for why he'd take a limo.

I'm an illusionist in my spare time. Ask me how either David Blaine or Criss Angel does a trick and I can probably tell you. I can perform some of Angel's tricks and most of Blaine's tricks. I personally think Angel's tricks are more innovative.

O.k, can you tell us how Angel goes through the glass of a building???
I beleive it's just a pane of glass that can be removed but it looks seamless, so can you confirm if i'm right or not plz???

Also can you confirm for the other guys in this thread that they have no magical powers what so ever???

I think it's pretty obvious their on wires when levitating, wether it be cranes or some pully system that drags them from one point to another.

Also why are you so willing to give secrets out if you dont mind answering???

[edit on 26-10-2006 by chris01621]