Mosques and Islamic Center Attacked

If 'collective guilt' will stop those who have come to our countries to exploit, not to embrace, then so be it.

It seems that these discussions always boil-down to oil. We've historically usurped other peoples' resources, etc. Everyone who remembers the oil crisis in the '70s raise their hands. Remember the gas lines? The gas rationing? Remember gasahol? So where has our government been for the last 30yrs? We've had three decades to develop alternatives, increase efficiencies and lower dependence and what happened? Nothing. If we can eliminate our need for 'their' oil we can flip them off and tell them to eat sand. We'll have no reason to be there and they can go back to fighting amongst themselves as they have for the last several thousand years. But for some strange reason no one seems to WANT to eliminate our reliance on foreign oil. Or at least it certainly appears that way.

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
We tried leaving them alone Twitchy and what did it get us?

9/11....almost 3000 dead innocent people.
Maximu§

In what regard? When? As I said we have been there since Teddy Rosevelt, oddly enough since we discovered their vast oil reserves... When have we ever left them alone Maximus? If you can cite a period in recent history when our foriegn policy has been leaving the middle east alone, I'd love to know about it.

So... are we a global village or should everyone just mind their own business and not deal with any other countries? I am confused because I keep getting contradictory messages on this. Do we leave "them" alone and let them massacre each other and die of starvation or disease?

When our family came here from Croatia, they adapted to the American culture. They leanred the recognized language, and respected the laws. As most that came here (and to other Western Nations), they did not chant "Death, Death, Death". Even in 2005, with the newest wave of Asians coming to America, we do not hear that rhetoric.

What's the Muslims excuse?

natraq, so do most muslims.
They have jobs, their kids go to school...
Why should they be responsible for what extremists have done???
Why is it up to them to stop these people?? What kind of logic is that??
Are YOU trying to stop russian mafia going wild everywhere? After all they are white and they are christian, so you should be responsible for that too, since you are white and christian.
Such logic is absurd.

The modern society is a society of INDIVIDUALS and our law system is based on INDIVIDUAL guilt and punishment.
Why should we go back to dark days, and that only concerning one religion??
If you are applying collective guilt, then acuse all russians of human traficking, all black people of gang related crime, all white people for serial killings and child abuse.... the list goes on and on...

The problem with that arguement is that:

a) blacks in America are just that: Americans

b) the Russian mob is not burning US flags in America, demanding death to the infidels.

c) Immigrants from all over the world come to the West, and do not stomp on their newly adopted countries.

Once again, what is the Muslim's excuse for not doing a damn thing about what is going on? Is it fear of retribution from their own people? Is it indifference? Is it a secret happiness of what is going on?

At the outbreak of war, any war that the West is involved in, from Viet-Nam til now, there are protesters marching on behalf of the countries we are engaged with. Millions of Euro's and Americans marched against the War in Iraq.

I still want to see one, just one, protest in Tehran or another major Middle Eastern/Muslim city, condemning the bombings that have taken place.

Till then, I hold my opinion strong.

hmmm nathraq, I think I see a flaw in your thinking, "muslim" is not a nation, it is a RELIGION belonging to many nations. You seem to view all muslims as belonging to some collective, so what one does falls on everybody else.
I tend to disagree with such view.
As you might know, countries with muslim majority are not such great friends amongst eachother, Iran and Iraq for example fought wars for decades. Why should iranians have to feel responsible for iraqi suicide bombing for example?
Americans protested Vietnam war because it was AMERICANS fighting that war. It has to do with NATION, not religion or race, it has to do with organised goverment led invasion of another country, and not rogue groups.

Terrorism is an ideology of war, an ideology of "resistance" from a side of those who do not have a state or an army to fight for them.
While London attack has been on the news 24/7, the exact same bombings against MUSLIMS in Iraq happen every single day. It is not a simple problem with simple solutions.
There was only ONE 9/11 in USA, after that nothing. If majority of muslims were somehow inclined to think like terrorists, it would have been more. Why should they quit their jobs, leave their families to protest something they have ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO, and that is only commited by a VERY SMALL minority of people one time, and to that who are not even from their country??

Another thing, chances of being a victim of gang related crime or simply a victim of a stupid white man in USA are FAR greater then being a victim of a terrorist attack.

Iraqis are the ones who REALLY have to worry about dieing in a terrorist bombing, that is the most common cause of death in Iraq these days.

Originally posted by paperclip
Iraqis are the ones who REALLY have to worry about dieing in a terrorist bombing, that is the most common cause of death in Iraq these days.

that is true. And I shouldn't lump all Muslims into one basket. I apologize for that.

Ok, the problem is with Muslims of Arab descent. As as you just pointed out, they have no qualms about killing their own people, bombing schools and hospitals, and orchestrating otherwise chaotic attacks on civilans. PO'd at the Americans and Brits?? Bomb a hospital or school. Yeah, that will show them we mean business. That will stir up enough resentment against them to add new recruits to our cause. Pathetic.

And I didn't forget our friends, the Muslims of Persian descent. I really hope things turn around, so all the hatred can stop.

I guess I'm just angry, because I want to go to all those countries and see the ancient sites; Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Ottoman, Mongol, etc. But I can't. I will never have a chance to go to Iran, or Iraq, with my family, to see the wonders of the ancient world. Egypt is even too dangerous nowadays. Especially for us Americans, and the Brits.

Guys,

the only result of retaliation actions is to increase the hate and thus leading us to a religious war. A religious war that would be CATASTROPHIC for Earth, since religious beliefs are the hardest beliefs around.

Terrorists must be fought by educating Muslims that they should not listen to war mongerers. And the target group of this education must be Muslim parents, because they are the ones that can affect the young Muslim boys that blow themselves up. There must be a huge move run by the media, in schools, in mosques, in public places, that by blowing someone up there is nothing to be earned at all, except tears and hate.

Originally posted by nathraq

I guess I'm just angry

I can understand that, I wanted to go to all those places too.

I'm thinking those morons who spent god knows how much money and time to plan the attack and kill random people, should have taken that money and built a school in their home country or something. That would have helped their nation a LOT more then the bombing.

Originally posted by nathraq
b]I guess I'm just angry, because I want to go to all those countries and see the ancient sites; Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Ottoman, Mongol, etc. But I can't. I will never have a chance to go to Iran, or Iraq, with my family, to see the wonders of the ancient world. Egypt is even too dangerous nowadays. Especially for us Americans, and the Brits.

Well if your brave enough to visit any of the countries mentioned above, your sure to be kidnapped and we'll end up with an ATS fund-raiser to come up with the money for your release.

Max

ok, this is very sad, reading some of the comments here.
I'm a muslim, so i suppose i should write down here what i'm feeling right now. Anger.
Anger that more innocent people died. Anger that WHOEVER did this, be they "muslims" or CIA, or Mossad, or i dont care who the hell did it. Its wrong. Its wrong and i have NEVER met a muslim who condoned any bombing attack. I honestly havent.
After the anger of this actually happening, i am furthermore angry because whoever did it, is claiming to have done it in the name of Islam.
And yeah, you've all heard the "islam is a religion of peace" speech before now, i am sure. But its the truth. People like to quote the quran out of context, using parts of verses that were to do with war, in order to show muslims as blood thirsty animals.
They never quote verses like:
"there is no compulsion in religion", or the many verses about God not loving aggressors.

Where am i going with this post?....i am just tired of all this. My own children had travelled into central london a couple of days before this, and the thought that it could have happened then....wow...i cant even express it. Its a terrible, terrible thing, but whoever did this, CANNOT, IN ANY WAY, claim they did it in the name of God, Islam or religion. If you kill ONE innocent person in Islam, our holy book tells us, its as if we killed the entire population. Does that really sound like a war mongering religion to you?

I dont agree though that all muslims should have to come out and apologise for this. I think we shoudl be given credit and it should be realised that just as you are angry and hurt, so are we. I dont recall anyone asking every single Irish person to come out and apologise for the IRA. Or, as someone said here (Paperclip, i think), you cant ask every russian, black, white , whatever person to apologise for the crimes of others.
Just remember, that we're not monsters.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Originally posted by eazy_mas
Maxiusm you blame all muslims for the action of few and had offend many by saying some mosques should be destroyed.

Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said is:

When a Muslim cleric from a FORIEGN country stands in front of his Mosque with his congregation and is screaming for the DEATH of your countries leader....than its time to send him back home and Bulldoze the Mosque.

Freedom of speech is great to a point, but when a Muslim Cleric starts to threaten others in the countries that took them in...than they have stepped over the line and its time to send em back where they came from.

Max

Because you culture is a threat to all other cultures. You western trying to change the things to whats right to you. If a person sings about it its okay like those rapper but if the talk about it its different.

Sometimes even a bulldozer cant destroy a mosque nor an earthqauke (happen in Turkey)

You know when the Tureky earthquake happen before some said there was a solider said lets look what the Quran will do and tore it down . That why some people in turkey said it was punishment from god.

You ideology is based on hatry if you break down a mosque that wont be enough because it will only make things worst for yourself. People will gather and will make a point.

Originally posted by nathraq
When our family came here from Croatia, they adapted to the American culture. They leanred the recognized language, and respected the laws. As most that came here (and to other Western Nations), they did not chant "Death, Death, Death". Even in 2005, with the newest wave of Asians coming to America, we do not hear that rhetoric.

What's the Muslims excuse?

Arabic saying " not all your finger look the same"

in other words not all the muslim are the same.

You talk about the western culture, hear is the hard truth most western culute is based on mind controling no interaction voilent culture. Watch the TV and you could see it. Watch there news you could know it.

Did you know people from western countries when they come here they stick in ower country because bascily the paying them high salary and there is no taxes unlike there countries. They even get paid more than locals in our country.

Its amazing how people have not answered or commented on Marid Audrans post, seems to me hypocrisy got your tongue.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
So... are we a global village or should everyone just mind their own business and not deal with any other countries? I am confused because I keep getting contradictory messages on this. Do we leave "them" alone and let them massacre each other and die of starvation or disease?

Uh no, the idea is to treat other cultures with respect, diplomacy, and empathy to the common human causes. Like um, paying for our oil, not invading Nations like Grenada because we don't like who they do business with or trying to overthrow governments (read South America) or to corner illicit drug markets to fund covert operations, not assasinating foriegn heads of state to acheive leverage in dirty deals, you know stuff like that. And before you go on the "Terrorist with respect?" rant, here's a little piece of thought to rattle around, we are over there, we threw the first stones. We involved ourselves, manipulating regimes, imposing sanctions, blockading ports, funding both sides of wars that had nothing to do with us. We have been screwing around over there for decade upon decade. Pallestine was a nation, we crammed Israel right in the middle of it, on behest of the British who had been doing the same there for decades before we got there (read Lawerence of Arabia) to do the same thing. No, terrorism isn't right, killing people isn't right, but damned if imperial wars based on the lies of a few elite at the cost of thousands of American lies and the retaliation of those who we so ardently CREATED is even close to a solution. 9-11 was a terrible tragedy, but rather than arrest those responsible, we invade two countries and start building permanent military installations there, preaching freedom and democracy to people who haven't had power or clean water since the bombs started falling.

When a suicide bomber runs into a crowd and kills himself, he does so for the ideals which were handed to him, right or wrong, but the point is that those behind the ideals are the real bastards. Unfortunately we have a few of these bastards in our society as well, don't we? Ultimately, most folks are pretty similar, we all eat, sleep, #e, and reproduce, we all love we all hate, and we all want to be left alone. Nobody likes being bombed, nobody likes sending kids off and getting little rubber samp letters in exchange for them, maybe if people could learn to leave each other the hell alone, maybe if people could learn to respect one another, and live with what they have, then the world could come to know peace. If it isn't the Russians out to get us, it's the Cubans, at one time it was the Indians, Red Cloud was a terrorist that needed to be feared and killed, whent he truth is he just wanted to be left the hell alone. When we wanted the Phillipines, it was the Spanish that were out to get us, the Germans, the Japs, the Mexicans, the British, before that it was the turks, the huns, the Romans, you name it. War isn't about ideals at all, its about keeping that tax money commin in, maintaining control. It's about the Fat Guys working the Skinny guys to stay fat, and it's been going on for thousands upon thousands of years. Do you even know any Iraqis? I don't. You're taking somebody's word, somebody's ideals for it that they were a threat to you huh? I bet if we left them alone, they would leave us alone, but then we wouldn't need the fat guys to protect us would we?
Mankind is a pretty sick critter, that or we are truly noble somewhere deep within ourselves, and have just been terribly mislead by the fat ones.
...

who told you that the Arab or muslims bombed 911 and who said that the 7/7 is the Arab or Muslim nation fault.

Give me proof and i will accpet your acusation.

AND WHO IN THE HELL IS THE MEDIA SAYING THAT ARABS DID IT !!!!!!

I will tell you one thing the evidence and information by the media and official is dumb. how the hell a 10 poud simple bomb break a concret and is supported with a cables and metal steel.

geek - I feel for you, very much. I keep thinking of my Muslim colleague at work, and how soft-spoken and mild-mannered she is. And how her responsibilities where I work is making immigration easier in French-speaking communities in Canada.

And to even imagine that people would hold her responsible for what terrorists do makes my blood boil.

Has it occurred to any of you that this is what the terrorists want? To cause enough of a backlash against Muslims at large that more and more Muslims will feel unjustly profiled and get more and more irate at the West?

Are we saying that all Muslims are guilty until proven innocent?

Originally posted by Otts
geek - I feel for you, very much. I keep thinking of my Muslim colleague at work, and how soft-spoken and mild-mannered she is. And how her responsibilities where I work is making immigration easier in French-speaking communities in Canada.

And to even imagine that people would hold her responsible for what terrorists do makes my blood boil.

Has it occurred to any of you that this is what the terrorists want? To cause enough of a backlash against Muslims at large that more and more Muslims will feel unjustly profiled and get more and more irate at the West?

Are we saying that all Muslims are guilty until proven innocent?

well said

Otts wrote:

Has it occurred to any of you that this is what the terrorists want? To cause enough of a backlash against Muslims at large that more and more Muslims will feel unjustly profiled and get more and more irate at the West?

sorry i didnt reply to this sooner. Thank you by the way for your support, and thank you for everyone who has expressed the same.
Is this what terrorists want?
Well, if they do, then personally, its not working for me. If anything, i am getting more and more fed up with how MUSLIMS see Islam. I believe that muslims, in general, are on the wrong track. BY that, i dont mean that in general they are extremists. Just that i believe, as a major religion, we all need to re-evaluate our positions in life, and we should stand up and reclaim our religion.
Instead of being obsessed with petty things/rituals which muslims get from the hadith, we should be standing up and shouting. We should be shouting as loud as we can, that this is NOT the way our religion is.

People on here have said that muslims should come together and rid ourselves of this faction. I would ask, how do we do that?
I am a mother of 4 children. WHat i can do is limited, by finances, time, etc. What i CAN Do, however, and i think i do it well, is to teach my children what the TRUE islam is. My children are not going to be filled with the superstitious nonsense which pervades islam as a whole.
They will NOT be intolerant, because the Quran teaches us tolerance. They will not be bothered by rituals, they will only, GOd WIlling, grow up to know that they believe in God, and as long as they do good in life, and follow the Quran (NOT the hadith), and show respect and decency to people in general, then they will have fulfilled their religion and their duty to their fellow humans.



[edit on 18-7-2005 by geek101]