Roswell Ship: Grandfather of American Rocketplanes?

Ok,
Initially I wrote a long initial post with tons and tons of comments about history, technology, and apparent design lineages... but, upon reflection, I realized that threads that start out woth lots of writing sink like rocks while those with pictures and one or two lines only go on to acquire 100 replies. So... I decided to just let the pictures do the talking:

Here are models/artwork based on eyewitness accounts of what the Roswell ship looked like. The notion that it was a true 'saucer' has been disputed for decades:





(problem with link, more to come)

Now here is artwork that was inspired by the X-20 Dynasoar that the USAF wanted to build at the same time that the Mercury program was starting:







Here is the story of the X-20 Dynasoar. Note the other proposals at the bottom of the page... they all bear a striking resemblance to both the Roswell ship and Lockheed-Martin's current CEV proposal:

www.astronautix.com...

Now, finally, here is a diagram of Lockheed-Martin's latest CEV idea:
en.wikipedia.org...:CEV_Lockheed_Martin.jpg#file

en.wikipedia.org...:H_lockheed_cev_050503_02.jpg


To me, it seems like we are dealing with an obvious design lineage. The (reconstructed) portraits of the Roswell ship seem to hint at all of the proposals that were submitted for the X-20 competition. The 'winning' X-20 design shares the same lifting body and 'manta ray' wings as the Roswell ship. Now, finally, the latest proposal for an American spacecraft appears VERY SIMILAR to the X-20.

Now, I'll let the pictures do the talking... but it seems like we are dealing with the evolution of one concept here. When the fact that the Germans were working on rocket gliders in WW2 is thrown into the equation... it seems like we are looking at the truth of Roswell: The ship was really a crashed rocket plane that had to be kept secret for decades because its essential design is still in use/development.

thats a very interesting theory there

i didnt know some witnesses claimed it was shaped like that

now; the reason i figured a 'saucer' shape was "Good" because this

Ive seen a real flying saucer with my own eyes...as it flew over my house

So....I Still think what happened at Rosewell was a crashed Spaceship with ALien Bodies in it...

Despite what shape the craft was; it crashed; and it had dead aliens in it

The military has been trying for years to convince me otherwise
haha
Ive seen the UFOs /Saucers with my own eyes; i know they are real

So dont forget , its still possible it could have been a saucer
Saucers are Real

Hey,

No one wants to believe in Roswell more than I do. As a kid I saw what is usually described as an ET and want, more than anything, to understand what the bigger picture is.

In this case, however, it sounds like we're actually dealing with either a rocket/glider or a rocket-powered lifting body. I hate to say this, but the resemblance of some of these 'forensic' drawings to the later X-20 proposals is uncanny. I'm almost forced to believe that this is a situation where the USAF can't admit what really happened because the type of object that crashed was later developed into something like an operational space bomber.

And... even if the Roswell crash was 100% human... that does not mean UFOs and aliens are bunk. Flying saucers, alien abductions, and all the rest can still be real even without Roswell.

The problem I see with your theory is the fact that Rockets are powered by compustion. Rockets take a fuel sorce such as liquid or hydrogen or whatever and convert it into energy. No matter how efficient this is, it still doesn't produce the power required to travel between stars. This requires theoretical technology, nothing we (atleast mainstream science) possess at this point in time

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Distortion]

I don't think your theory flies (excuse the pun).

If the present designs aren't classified, there's no reason for old designs to be covered up by 60 years of secrecy and denial. They collected all the debris, only a few non-military witnesses could describe it, and a description wouldn't do anybody much good without detailed plans. If it was a secret plane, they would have been far better off just saying it was a secret plane.

One problem is the drawing you have posted doesn't match descriptions I have heard including the newspaper article of the Army recovering a crashed disc. Now if it were a secret plane or something, certainly there would have been an insignia that showed it was one of ours right? So the Army would have figured this out and would never have put out the article. What they described was "unidentifiable", so I don't but it.

wouldn't it stand to reason that "form follows function" so if the function is similar, the form will be similar ? I mean a cube or pyramid wouldn't fly very well, right ?

The witnesses describing an aerofoil design (and there were a few) don't often stand up well to criticism. (they include such individuals as Kaufmann, Ragsdale, etc. that kind of crowd) The Army's own press announcement was the recovery of a flying "disc", not a plane. The more credible witnesses (i.e. other military, fire department, etc.) describing the crash recovery site (vs. the Brazel debris field) state a saucer shape under the tarp on the flatbed.

If the present designs aren't classified, there's no reason for old designs to be covered up by 60 years of secrecy and denial. They collected all the debris, only a few non-military witnesses could describe it, and a description wouldn't do anybody much good without detailed plans. If it was a secret plane, they would have been far better off just saying it was a secret plane.

Indeed, an important point. If a secret plane project, this would have been an easy out for the Air Force, and certainly more plausible than the pitiful Mogul/High Dive explanation attempt.

It's an interesting connection though, but as mentioned, the design of our planes are more likely a "form following function" derivitive...

Say, you guys have read the lacerta files, right? well in that she says that in order for the greys to maintain a healthy relationship with our government, they donate technology. The Aircraft pics could be part alien tech.

Originally posted by Distortion
The problem I see with your theory is the fact that Rockets are powered by compustion. Rockets take a fuel sorce such as liquid or hydrogen or whatever and convert it into energy. No matter how efficient this is, it still doesn't produce the power required to travel between stars. This requires theoretical technology, nothing we (atleast mainstream science) possess at this point in time

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Distortion]

I'm not saying that this was a true interstellar ship. I'm saying that it was, essentially, the equivalent of a primitive shuttle. That is, it would have been boosted into the air by rocket and then flown back to earth as a glider. My argument, here, is that it was entirely terrestrial and (most likely) based on captured German designs.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
I don't think your theory flies (excuse the pun).

If the present designs aren't classified, there's no reason for old designs to be covered up by 60 years of secrecy and denial. They collected all the debris, only a few non-military witnesses could describe it, and a description wouldn't do anybody much good without detailed plans. If it was a secret plane, they would have been far better off just saying it was a secret plane.

There would be every reason to hide it if the USAF or USN maintained a fleet of spaceplanes -- that are descended from this craft -- that are still in operation. You have to remember that:

1)The militarization of space would be seen as a danger to international bodies and communities
2)Putting nuclear weapons in space (these might be bombers) is illegal under international law
3) Any development of american space bombers would instigate China and Russia to build their own space weapons.

Overall, it seems like the USAF would be encouraged to keep an 'entirely human' explanation for Roswell under wraps if it was linked to an active weapon system that was illegal. Also... the USAF, at this time, was experimenting with nuclear power on aircraft. These things might be the equivalent of shuttles that use reactors for some reason.

Originally posted by Gazrok
The witnesses describing an aerofoil design (and there were a few) don't often stand up well to criticism. (they include such individuals as Kaufmann, Ragsdale, etc. that kind of crowd) The Army's own press announcement was the recovery of a flying "disc", not a plane. The more credible witnesses (i.e. other military, fire department, etc.) describing the crash recovery site (vs. the Brazel debris field) state a saucer shape under the tarp on the flatbed.

If the present designs aren't classified, there's no reason for old designs to be covered up by 60 years of secrecy and denial. They collected all the debris, only a few non-military witnesses could describe it, and a description wouldn't do anybody much good without detailed plans. If it was a secret plane, they would have been far better off just saying it was a secret plane.

Indeed, an important point. If a secret plane project, this would have been an easy out for the Air Force, and certainly more plausible than the pitiful Mogul/High Dive explanation attempt.

It's an interesting connection though, but as mentioned, the design of our planes are more likely a "form following function" derivitive...

Well, many of the witnesses who talk about recovered bodies and saucers that have been taken down by radar interference have, themselves, been discredited. Kaufman, I believe, was one of the guys who talked about alien bodies.

I mentioned my reasons for why the USAF would still keep a rocket/glider secret in one of my posts above. If this thing was the predescessor of possibly illegal aircraft... the USAF would hide it at all costs.

As for the issue of a 'disc'... we MUST remember that the term 'flying saucer' is a misnomer. Kenneth Arnold did not report a sighting of a flying disc... what he reported were objects that MOVED like saucers "skipping across water". In terms of shape, his 'saucers' were actually shaped more like flying wings or lifting bodies. It seems that, possibly, all the early reports of 'flying saucers' were inspired by 'misinterpretations' of Arnold's own description.

And... I don't see why the USAAF wouldn't use a term like 'disc' (note that it was in quotation marks in the ramey telegraph, implying that it is a misnomer) when searching for a rough description in a telegraph or news release.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
As for the issue of a 'disc'... we MUST remember that the term 'flying saucer' is a misnomer. Kenneth Arnold did not report a sighting of a flying disc... what he reported were objects that MOVED like saucers "skipping across water". In terms of shape, his 'saucers' were actually shaped more like flying wings or lifting bodies. It seems that, possibly, all the early reports of 'flying saucers' were inspired by 'misinterpretations' of Arnold's own description.

And... I don't see why the USAAF wouldn't use a term like 'disc' (note that it was in quotation marks in the ramey telegraph, implying that it is a misnomer) when searching for a rough description in a telegraph or news release.

On this point I have to disagree. Remember those desciptions in the Old tesiment of the Bible , " A wheel within a wheel". Also Alexander the Great's Armies reported "Metal Sheilds" had appeard in the sky during a River crossing. And there are several examples of saucer shaped craft in Paintings , and tapestries throughout history , well before Arnold's sighting in the '40s.

This first link talks about how the Germans wanted to develop a 'skip bomber' that was to be shot into the atmosphere by a boost from a rocket:
www.cyber-north.com...\


This article clearly shows that Von Braun and his team originally intended to build a rocket/glider based on the V-2. Originally designated as the A-9, the craft was scarpped by the Germans because it was closer to a space shuttle than a true weapon. It seems logical to assume that the US would have been interested in developing the A-9 as a space recon platform:
www.astronautix.com...

"Designs beyond the A9/A10 were sketched out as well. Adding an A11 stage would have resulted in a satellite launcher. An additional A12 stage would result in a four stage vehicle with the A9 being a manned orbital space shuttle."

I think it's becomming pretty clear as to what the Roswell ship actually was.... and I really did want it to be aliens.

Here are some models/drawings of what the A-9 german LEO glider were supposed to look like:







Now, imagine the upper stage of the a9 drawings/models depicted here:

Originally posted by lost_shaman

On this point I have to disagree. Remember those desciptions in the Old tesiment of the Bible , " A wheel within a wheel". Also Alexander the Great's Armies reported "Metal Sheilds" had appeard in the sky during a River crossing. And there are several examples of saucer shaped craft in Paintings , and tapestries throughout history , well before Arnold's sighting in the '40s.

I don't mean to deny UFOs in general or the notion that people sometimes see swirling, glowing discs. My point was that the craft that were sighted near the time of the Roswell crash were actually closer to what we might consider an x plane in shape and performance.

As for Ezekiel's wheels... I'm very familiar with that story and often bring it up among friends. It should be noted, however, that the image of a 'fire wheel' is used throughout the world as a religious symbol. His description can be interpreted as being purely symbolic...

Still, let's say that glowing discs do exist and do appear before people (and I believe they do), the description of the Roswell ship is not that of an ethereal, glowing object. It is always one of a mechanical craft. In short, I believe that people do see glowing disc-shaped craft that may be of either ET or paranormal origin... however that ISN'T what the Roswell ship is described as being.

A few days before the Roswell story broke in the press, a couple in Roswell, itself, took a photo of a wedge shaped UFO. Some researchers estimated, later on, that this was a picture of the ship, itself, that crashed (on the day of its demise).

Now, doing a quick google search, I could only find this copy of the Roswell photograph. People who have followed Roswell for years, though, will recognize the image:






Now, note the extreme similarity between this craft and the German A9 craft. It's not hard to imagine that the USAAF or USA gave Von Braun money to build the A9 after the war... and that this model eventually led to the tech used in things like the modern CEV proposals.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
"Designs beyond the A9/A10 were sketched out as well. Adding an A11 stage would have resulted in a satellite launcher. An additional A12 stage would result in a four stage vehicle with the A9 being a manned orbital space shuttle."

I think it's becomming pretty clear as to what the Roswell ship actually was.... and I really did want it to be aliens.

So why doesn't the USAF come out and say, "this is what crashed at Roswell", if it is clearly declassified? Instead they still stick with the Mogul story.

Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
"Designs beyond the A9/A10 were sketched out as well. Adding an A11 stage would have resulted in a satellite launcher. An additional A12 stage would result in a four stage vehicle with the A9 being a manned orbital space shuttle."

I think it's becomming pretty clear as to what the Roswell ship actually was.... and I really did want it to be aliens.

So why doesn't the USAF come out and say, "this is what crashed at Roswell", if it is clearly declassified? Instead they still stick with the Mogul story.

Several reasons:

1) The object that crashed at Roswell may be the technical predescessor of modern space bombers that, under existing law, would be illegal to operate.

2)Though the A9 is known to the public... its past exstance is a rather arcane piece of knowledge. In other words, yes, the A9 isn't classified, but it's buried in obscure books and probably familiar only to dedicated rocket historians. It is, essentially, a design that is 'lost' to the public consciousness.

3)Governments keep stuff classified for years after they become common knowledge... for no other reason than the argument that it makes sense not to give the enemy any 'extra help'. For instance, how would it help the government to let the russians know that we were working on rocketplanes in the 40s/50s? Things often stay 'secret' long after they become public solely for the sake that govs feel that it's always best to say as little as possible about even obvious things.

4) Bureaucratic amnesia: The records for such experiments might be out there... just buried in miles of stacked documents.

5) Inter-departmental fighting: This may have been a project that the army held on to after the split with the air force. Von Braun's rockets were tested by the army, after all, and so it's reasonable to assume that they would keep the records/copies of any A9 prototypes. The USAF might think it's a balloon because that's all they have a record of (keep in mind that the USAF has always approached this from the perspective of trying to 'figure out' the problem).

Posted by onlyinmydreams

Still, let's say that glowing discs do exist and do appear before people (and I believe they do), the description of the Roswell ship is not that of an ethereal, glowing object. It is always one of a mechanical craft. In short, I believe that people do see glowing disc-shaped craft that may be of either ET or paranormal origin... however that ISN'T what the Roswell ship is described as being.

OIMD,

The Roswell Daily Record , on July 8, 1947 , in its front page article you find this disciption from the Wilmot's.

Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot apparently were the only persons in Roswell who seen what they thought was a flying disk.

They were sitting on their porch at 105 South Penn. last Wednesday night at about ten minutes til ten o'clock when a large glowing object zoomed out of the sky from the southeast, going in a northwesterly direction at a high rate of speed.

Wilmot called Mrs. Wilmot's attention to it and both ran down into the yard to watch. It was in sight less then a minute, perhaps 40 or 50 seconds, Wilmot estimated.

Wilmot said that it appeared to him to be about 1,500 feet high and going fast. He estimated between 400 and 500 miles per hour.

In appearance it looked oval in shape like two inverted saucers, faced mouth to mouth, or like two old type washbowls placed, together in the same fashion. The entire body glowed as though light were showing through from inside, though not like it would inside, though not like it would be if a light were merely underneath.

From where he stood Wilmot said that the object looked to be about 5 feet in size, and making allowance for the distance it was from town he figured that it must have been 15 to 20 feet in diameter, though this was just a guess.

Wilmot said that he heard no sound but that Mrs. Wilmot said she heard a swishing sound for a very short time.

The object came into view from the southeast and disappeared over the treetops in the general vicinity of six mile hill.

Wilmot, who is one of the most respected and reliable citizens in town, kept the story to himself hoping that someone else would come out and tell about having seen one, but finally today decided that he would go ahead and tell about it. The announcement that the RAAF was in possession of one came only a few minutes after he decided to release the details of what he had seen.

This description disagree's with your argument.



[edit on 29-6-2005 by lost_shaman]