Roswell Ship: Grandfather of American Rocketplanes?

Compare this diagram of the german design with the photo taken at roswell:









Now, look at this model of the roswell ship and compare it with the CEV proposal:







Visually, it looks like we have a design lineage that goes:

A9-A12 german designs > Craft photographed and described at Roswell > Dynasoar/X-20 proposals > Modern CEV proposals

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
1) The object that crashed at Roswell may be the technical predescessor of modern space bombers that, under existing law, would be illegal to operate.

They would have operated no different than an ICBM, which we know is not illegal. And there is no mention of it being a bomber or carrying nuclear weapons in your link.

2)Though the A9 is known to the public... its past exstance is a rather arcane piece of knowledge. In other words, yes, the A9 isn't classified, but it's buried in obscure books and probably familiar only to dedicated rocket historians. It is, essentially, a design that is 'lost' to the public consciousness.

So was Project Mogul. None of us would even know about it if it wasn't brought up in the USAF Roswell Report.

3)Governments keep stuff classified for years after they become common knowledge... for no other reason than the argument that it makes sense not to give the enemy any 'extra help'. For instance, how would it help the government to let the russians know that we were working on rocketplanes in the 40s/50s? Things often stay 'secret' long after they become public solely for the sake that govs feel that it's always best to say as little as possible about even obvious things.

This is no different than Project Mogul which was to monitor Russian nuclear capability, but we know about that.

4) Bureaucratic amnesia: The records for such experiments might be out there... just buried in miles of stacked documents.

Again, so was Project Mogul, but the documents are able to be provided to explain Roswell.

5) Inter-departmental fighting: This may have been a project that the army held on to after the split with the air force. Von Braun's rockets were tested by the army, after all, and so it's reasonable to assume that they would keep the records/copies of any A9 prototypes. The USAF might think it's a balloon because that's all they have a record of (keep in mind that the USAF has always approached this from the perspective of trying to 'figure out' the problem).

For something that has caused as much distrust in the government that the Roswell issue has caused, I think they would overcome these obstacles. They would have come clean if it were an experimental craft, even an illegal one.

Hal,

Project Mogul did not involve any advanced or mysterious technology. It was classified because of what it was up to, not because of what it was. Revealing Mogul in the 90s did not mean disclosing secret capabilities.

"So was Project Mogul. None of us would even know about it if it wasn't brought up in the USAF Roswell Report. "

Mogul was probably a 'sacrifice bunt' aimed at keeping people off of the correct trail. It did not involve disclosing anything that was still usefull (we know now, for instance, that the russians have the bomb).

"They would have operated no different than an ICBM, which we know is not illegal. And there is no mention of it being a bomber or carrying nuclear weapons in your link."

Yes, it would have been illegal, as the ultimate goal of the rocket plane program was to put shuttle-like craft that could operate in space. ICBMs are only in space for minutes and launch their attack from the ground. A space bomber, theoretically, would be able to stay in space for weeks and launch an attack while over enemy territory without warning. The difference is that the weapons are stored in space, not on the ground.

This article from PM details a proposed space bomber/rocket glider that would both make use of nuclear power and be used as a nuclear bomber:
www.popularmechanics.com...

Note how close it's design is to the Roswell model. Note, also, how the crew capsule can eject (most descriptions of roswell claim that there was a second site that contained the crew deck):












It seems, to me, like the Roswell ship was a transitional design between the A9 and the craft described by popular mechanics.

Lost shaman,
The citation you've brought up specifically details a craft that was not rounded. The 'two soup bowls' part describes the cross-section (which still fits with an A9 derived craft), not the profile (which Mr. Wilmot described as non - circular).

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


, I realized that threads that start out woth lots of writing sink like rocks while those with pictures and one or two lines only go on to acquire 100 replies.
So... I decided to just let the pictures do the talking:


. The notion that it was a true 'saucer' has been disputed for decades:

smart move there onlyinmydreams

.............

?saucer shaped? ->> It all depends on the Pitch and Yaw of the
flying object in relation to the ground observers position

no wonder the various reports of; saucers, discs, cigars, triangles,
even the dynosoar pic above.

If, in your minds eye, if you rotate the Dynosoar profile, in an exercise of
spatial relations....
you might just see a similarity with this profile of an '72 AMC Gremlin car


of a AMC Gremlin shape, i saw in July 1972, in Orlando-Apopka, Fla
gliding between buildings (my line of sight) but at about 1,000ft altitude




~~~~~~~~~

as far as the Biblical Ezekiels' sighting of a wheel-in-a-wheel...
there's another theory that he was actually describing the rotating star canopy,
and the sun & moon cycles, and those were the wheels-within-wheels analogy...
and the four faces that faced the 4 winds/directions were the 4
seasons of the larger 'Year' Wheel....which contained the 'Day-Night' Wheels and the Lunar or Month Wheels....

no mysterious alien metallic crafts in that explaination.

~~~~~~~~~

get `em Don Quiote, strike at those windmills!!

As for angles, check out this pic. It's the one I was talking about before... only I was technically wrong and it was taken over Arizona (though I've seen it listed before as being from Roswell). Note how it has the 'manta ray' like shape of the Roswell reconstructions/models but is also a saucer form from the front and sides. Note, as well, how it matches the saucer from the PM article and is very similar to what one might imagine a stretched A9 to look like:

www.arpnet.it...


Also, St Udio, thanks for the points about angles. You can even imagine a crashed A9 (with its top and bottom fins ripped off) looking like a saucer from both the side and front.

Let's say that in 1947, the A9 crashed in Roswell. This area was subject to the most sensitive technology we had at the time, so the military personnel know not to talk about secret projects. Major Marcell would not have mistaken it for a flying "disc" and would have been able to determine it was one of our's even if he was unaware of the project. The A9 is not that disimalar to a V2 which I'm sure he was aware of. And I'm sure sure there were markings on the craft showing it was American.

So why would they have released the newspaper article if it was a secret project? Why do so many witnesses say they handled material that we don't even have today? If victims were involved, why could the witnesses not identify them as human?

IMO, the LRV is closer to the descriptions I've read about, but it was not around in 1947. The A9 looks closer to a V2 rocket and not the LRV, and would not be mistaken for a disc. There would have been markings on the craft to determine where it came from. The LRV maybe could have been mistaken for a UFO, and the occupants burned beyond recognition, but not in 1947.

Von Braun , and the scientists brought over in Operation Paper Clip , didn't even arrive in the U.S. to begin their work until February 1946 , and were still working with V2's in 1949. That would mean they would have only had at the very most 16 months to get a working model built and flying , for it to have crashed in Roswell , I don't think that’s really enough time.

Also this would have been a diversion away from the Goals at that time to develop the rocket technology , Sputnik didn't orbit the Earth until '57 , and Treatise banning weapons in space weren't signed until '61 , and '67.

Some responses:

HAL 9000 brings up some very good points... and they are actually the main reasons why I've believed in the Roswell alien story for years. Let me try to make a point by point response. Again, HAL's points are all very good:

1) Compartmentalization. The officers at the 509th bombardment group, even though they were in charge of the only atomic bomb-carrying unit in the world, might not have been privy to rocket experiments. The military operates on a 'need to know' basis and so it is possible that even the commander of the 509th -- whom I concede must have signed off on the press release at some point -- might not have known about the rocket plane/glider projects. In fact... I doubt that they would have because, at that stage in the game, any rocket planes would have been purely experimental and under the strict guidance of the people back at Wright Patterson.

2) Equipment. Though the 509th was the 'tip of the spear' in terms of US fighting capability, the aircraft it used, the B-29, was, essentially, a standard aircraft (though it arguably represents the most advanced example of straight-wing piston engined types). People who operated it might not necessarily be up on the most recent developments in rocket theory. In fact... I KNOW that the people who were in the 509th thought of the B-29 as about as advanced as you could get for the time. Fred Olivi, who lived a few blocks away from me when I was growing up, was the co-pilot of the B-29 'Bock's Car' that dropped the bomb on Nagasaki. I interviewed him once for a school project and spoke to him several times while growing up. He ALWAYS expressed amazement at how advanced the B-29 was for its era (he had also flown B-24s). So, even though we think of the B-29 as just another WW2 plane, the people in the 509th thought of it as the most advanced large aircraft around. Next to it, a rocketplane along the lines of a modified A9 would have looked absolutely fantastic... and alien. In other words, though we think of the A9 as being humdrum so far as rockets go, someone who would have thought of the B-29 or P-80 as 'advanced' would have considered a rocket-powered lifting body amazing looking.

3)Infomration. Lt. Col. Olivi also told me that, when the unit was being formed up and trained, that they were NEVER let in on the atomic secret. Even after the war (and the missions) the exact details of the A bombs were never given to them. Why would anyone in their group be told about advanced rockets?

4) The V2. Yes, the A9 was designed on the same lines as the V2 and everyone at Roswell would have known about the V2... but the A9 was different in that it featured a wing that wrapped around its nose to form a lifting body fuselage (giving it a wedge look). Such an object, after having been damaged in a crash and set afire, might bear only a vague resemblance to a V2.

5) Crew. Imagine human beings who have experienced sudden decompression, burned in a fire fuled by rocket propellant, and who have been gnawed at for a day 9at least) by scavengers. The end result is a crew that no longer looks terrestrial. Also... it should be noted that the eyewitnesses who saw crew are considered the least reliable. They may be remembering something from other dates.

6) Markings. They may have been burned off of the outer surface... or they may never have been there.

I will answer shman's questions in a moment.

Lost Shaman,

Little known fact: Roswell, New Mexico, was the site of Robert Goddard's rocket tests for many years. When WW2 began he became a sort of 'director' for domestic rocket affairs for the US (even though he had been repeatedly rejected by the US government and academic world for decades before the war). It's also believed by many that some of the rockets he designed in the early 30s were actually the source of the later V-2 design.

So... essentially... there was already a steady 'rocket atmosphere' in Roswell long before the alien disc story ever broke. Using it as a test region for a primitive rocket glider would not have been some sort of mad-dash conversion that would have had to have been accomplished in 16 months alone. If, anything, the area would already have been the site of a small rocket industry (even if it was a cottage one before WW2). In some ways, then, it would have been a perfect place to set up a clandestine rocket plane project.

Heck... if it's too hard to believe that the A9 could have been produced in 16 months... might we be dealing with a Goddard-inspired craft that shared many of the same attributes as the A9 because it (arguably) was developed from the same source? Goddard was known to have been very secretive and involved in classified government projects... so, was the Roswell 'ship' really a Goddard proto-spaceplane?

Right now you may be saying, "OIMD wants it both ways. He's saying that the Roswell disk was a rocketplane because it resembles the German A9, but now he's also trying to justify its presence at Roswell by tying it to Goddard."

That would be a fair argument... but we have to remember the theory that both design lineages (Von Braun and Goddard's) come from (arguably) the same source... and that, even if they started out as separate designs, they may have converged due to time and technology. Note, for instance, how close the Me-109 and P-51 are! Early P-51s were often attacked by allied pilots on accident because they had a similar profile to the 109. It goes to reason, to a certain extent, that Goddard's old test site might have been used to fly either captured A9s or hybrid Goddard/Von Braun vehicles.

And, just for the sake of visuals, let me use these pictures to illustrate the Roswell scene I imagine:

1) Imagine this craft painted in silver -- though badly burned and damaged -- sticking out of an arroyo with its tail blasted off:



2) Imagine the same craft -- again burnt and sisfigured -- sticking out of the ground during a night like this:





The end result is very reminiscent of Roswell reports.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Robert Goddard... had been repeatedly rejected by the US government and academic world for decades before the war...

I have a relative who lived near Goddard's operation. I think a lot of the 'history' that states this is cover story. The US govt fully understood the strategic and tactical meaning of rocketry, and kept it very, very quiet. Goddard got farther than the general public realizes.

It is the presence of that advanced technology that attracts the " Visitors".

www.ufoevidence.org...

MAJOR GENERAL VASILY ALEXEYEV
Russian Air Force Space Communications Center Moscow

This interest specifically expressed itself in certain experts being sent to investigate, especially to those places where UFOs, let's call them that, appeared quite frequently. I know a whole number of military bases in that category. As a rule they are objects of strategic significance, rocket complexes, scientific test establishments, in other words the places where there is a high concentration of advanced science and, to some degree, danger. Because every nuclear rocket, every new Air force installation represents a breakthrough both in science and in military terms; it is first and foremost a peak, the summit of human achievement. And that is where UFOs appeared fairly often. Moreover, individual officers and commanders on the spot who knew about the phenomenon and had no official instructions on the matter, acted on their own initiative to investigate UFOs, recording data, and so on. I know that in some places they even learned to create a situation which would deliberately provoke the appearance of a UFO. A UFO would appear where there was increased military activity connected, say, with the transportation of "special" loads. It was enough artificially stimulate or schedule such a move for a UFO to appear. In other words, some kind of conditional relationship emerged. And they detected it.

Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Robert Goddard... had been repeatedly rejected by the US government and academic world for decades before the war...

I have a relative who lived near Goddard's operation. I think a lot of the 'history' that states this is cover story. The US govt fully understood the strategic and tactical meaning of rocketry, and kept it very, very quiet. Goddard got farther than the general public realizes.

OK,

This actually supports my argument... as it lends credence to the notion that the US was testing either rocket-powered aircraft or primitive proto-spacecraft in 1947. IF Goddard was further along than commonly believed... it's possible that he could have begun a project that resulted in a rocket plane that was deployed by 1947 (something akin to an American A9).

Actually, Chakotay, could you provide more details about what your relatives witnessed/heard? This could be the key to figuring out the Roswell mystery. Any sort of details would be appreciated.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
It is the presence of that advanced technology that attracts the " Visitors".

www.ufoevidence.org...

MAJOR GENERAL VASILY ALEXEYEV
Russian Air Force Space Communications Center Moscow

This interest specifically expressed itself in certain experts being sent to investigate, especially to those places where UFOs, let's call them that, appeared quite frequently. I know a whole number of military bases in that category. As a rule they are objects of strategic significance, rocket complexes, scientific test establishments, in other words the places where there is a high concentration of advanced science and, to some degree, danger. Because every nuclear rocket, every new Air force installation represents a breakthrough both in science and in military terms; it is first and foremost a peak, the summit of human achievement. And that is where UFOs appeared fairly often. Moreover, individual officers and commanders on the spot who knew about the phenomenon and had no official instructions on the matter, acted on their own initiative to investigate UFOs, recording data, and so on. I know that in some places they even learned to create a situation which would deliberately provoke the appearance of a UFO. A UFO would appear where there was increased military activity connected, say, with the transportation of "special" loads. It was enough artificially stimulate or schedule such a move for a UFO to appear. In other words, some kind of conditional relationship emerged. And they detected it.

OK,
At this point I want to stress that I am a believer in ET contact/visitation and 'alien' abduction (though I'm beginning to believe in Vallee's theories). I, in no way, want to dispute most of the famous UFO sightings...

However, I have to wonder if (to play devil's advocate) those sites are being visited because, again, they hold strategic interest for the air forces of rival countries. I mean... wouldn't the US want to spy on important Soviet military sites? At the same time, wouldn't an advanced alien race be able to spy on the same installations from orbit (in the same way that we use interplanetary probes or spy satellites)? In other words... spying fits the 'profile' of a rocket-powered space spy... but it doesn't fit the profile of an alien spy ship (which, presumably, is more adavnced than our spy satelleites). Note how almost all of these 'UFO near a military installation' stories predate the era of digital cameras and radio downloads. That is... these sightings seem to drop off after sats can relay their pics down to earth directly (eliminating the need for tactical recon aircraft).

Ok OIMD,

Everyone will agree that "something" came down on Mac Brazel's farm, and people did see and handle some of the wreckage.

How does your theory explain the fact that no one recognized the wreckage or debris as being of Human origin?

What I mean is that the English , German , and Russian languages all use the same basic style of lettering. This lettering would be all over , and inside of any fuselage built by these three countries, and easily recognizable to any New Mexican citizen as Human language .

Well,
First, it has to be emphasized that Marcel's son (who was a boy at the time) was the one who handled debris with 'alien writing on it'.

That being said... are there really no marks on aircraft that do not correspond to Italic-based alphabets?

Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr. who was 11 at the time, has been the State Surgeon of Montana, and held Top Secret Clearance as an Army National Guard helicopter pilot.

He still maintains that the debris was of alien origins to this day.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
This actually supports my argument... as it lends credence to the notion that the US was testing either rocket-powered aircraft or primitive proto-spacecraft in 1947. IF Goddard was further along than commonly believed... it's possible that he could have begun a project that resulted in a rocket plane that was deployed by 1947 (something akin to an American A9).

If this was an experimental flight that crashed, why did it take days to find it? They would have tracked the craft on radar and had some idea where it came down. The fact is it was first reported by a rancher Mac Brazel and the military had no idea it was there and were not looking for it, because it was not one of our's.

Edit: I just realized, that this is also a good argument against the crash being Project Mogul. If it was a ballon with a radar reflector, would they not have tracked it on radar? There were 3 radar installations nearby, if I recall. Wouldn't the operators have reported where the ballon went down, and it would have been retrieved?

[edit on 6/30/2005 by Hal9000]

[edit on 6/30/2005 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Hal9000
If this was an experimental flight that crashed, why did it take days to find it? They would have tracked the craft on radar and had some idea where it came down. The fact is it was first reported by a rancher Mac Brazel and the military had no idea it was there and were not looking for it, because it was not one of our's.

Edit: I just realized, that this is also a good argument against the crash being Project Mogul. If it was a ballon with a radar reflector, would they not have tracked it on radar? There were 3 radar installations nearby, if I recall. Wouldn't the operators have reported where the ballon went down, and it would have been retrieved?

That's what I'm thinking too. Mogul was supposed to be loaded with radar targets (that's their excuse for the metalic foil) and it would have been hard to lose track of. Also, anything else they were flying around would have been missed if it crashed, they would have been going crazy looking for it.

Even if the Roswell base didn't know anything about the work at the other bases, I can't believe they would issue a press release about a flying saucer without at least asking the other bases if it might be theirs! I mean, come on... it's just a phone call.

"You missing a flying saucer?"

"Errr... what color is it?"

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by Hal9000
If this was an experimental flight that crashed, why did it take days to find it? They would have tracked the craft on radar and had some idea where it came down. The fact is it was first reported by a rancher Mac Brazel and the military had no idea it was there and were not looking for it, because it was not one of our's.

Edit: I just realized, that this is also a good argument against the crash being Project Mogul. If it was a ballon with a radar reflector, would they not have tracked it on radar? There were 3 radar installations nearby, if I recall. Wouldn't the operators have reported where the ballon went down, and it would have been retrieved?

That's what I'm thinking too. Mogul was supposed to be loaded with radar targets (that's their excuse for the metalic foil) and it would have been hard to lose track of. Also, anything else they were flying around would have been missed if it crashed, they would have been going crazy looking for it.

Even if the Roswell base didn't know anything about the work at the other bases, I can't believe they would issue a press release about a flying saucer without at least asking the other bases if it might be theirs! I mean, come on... it's just a phone call.

"You missing a flying saucer?"

"Errr... what color is it?"

my opinion; your on the right track definatly

Now i got two things to cover here
First of all; I already mentioned ive seen a flying disk myself

heres my own drawing of what i saw *I Saw it from underneath; only*
so i only have a drawing of the bottom of it
it spun counter-clockwise i think*and it appeared to be spinning slow also



that is a flying saucer ...

SO, I personally KNOW of this as TRUE; also a handful of my friends shared these sightings and will collaberate my testimony
as if u cared but anyhow lol

This brings me to point 2;
The story from the bible about Ezikiel
Dude
This guy had a flying saucer land in frontof him AND Little Aliens walked out of it
HERES A DIRECT BIBLE QUOTE

Ezekiel Chapter 1

1:4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness [was] about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.


LOL Can U Imagine that???
Just Read it....Think about It....
Aliens LOL

you can read the whole chapter here
www.apostolic-churches.net...
it gets totally weird and amazing

you really should read the whole thing; just so you can get a good grasp of this whole thing
its totally unexplainable *to me*

in fact i might start a thread about Ezekiel
after i research some more about it and can make a good presentation

lol well have fun reading about BIBLE ALIENS LOL
.......
LOL