Originally posted by Kongfuey
I have friends who refused to have their children immunised. There is nothing in the world wrong with these children. Of the children, one of them is now 14 yrs old and has never been sick.

You know why? Because those kids are hanging out with kids who've been immunised....and the immunised kids have no diseases that your friend's kids can catch

On the other hand, two of my sister's children weren't immunised. One had a case of whooping cough that developed into pneumonia; the other ended up with measles that left him with a partially paralysed left side (due to developing encephalitis).

There's so much left to chance; I think I'd prefer to take the risks (specially if they turn out to be unfounded, like Mr Wakefield's study....), than risk the potentially devastating disease itself, you know?

But you're right. It's up to the parents to do their own research, and whichever decision is made, to ensure that it's made for the right reasons.

Originally posted by blanketgirl
You quoted my post, but did you read any of it? I was talking about how the old times sucked. How people didn't have sanitation or do things that kept them healthy...

As far as the farm goes, I'm talking about kids shoveling feces, up to their elbows in dirt and barely rinsing before shoving candy or food into their mouths, people using outhouses and having no medication or vitamin supplements.

If you think of that as nostalgic, well I don't. I don't even know how to approach that one.

but immunizations are far from the only thing thrown into the mix as far as our healthcare.

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
Like the world WAS.

If you want it back that way fine, and if you feel you need to interfere with your daughters plans, go ahead, but I HOPE you do your research to extreme degrees, beyond old times, and nostalgic memories on the farm, before you make a final consideration.

I was using hyperbole to say exactly THAT, by being against vaccines, your just being as if you do think of it as nostalgic, since there a critical part of our development, n the safety of children, sanitation won't help you from tons of the various strands of diseases, which vaccinations protect from, but maybe you should just let your daughter worry about her childs health.....

BTW, Scientists have noted that if you compare a chart of children’s shoe sizes with their math test scores, they are remarkably similar. That is as the shoe sizes increase, the test scores get better.

Does that mean that small feet are the cause of poor test scores?

Correlation does not equate with causation.

Younger kids with smaller feet would not be expected to do as well as older kids taking the same test.

The point is that whatever it is, there is something causing the rise in autism.

Any medication you give people will have side effects. Both immediate and long term. Why is it that the drug companies seem to deny the fact that there could be long term side effects of vaccines?

I understand there is a difference between correlation and causation, but when you can look at vaccines and it can be difinitively said that they cause all the symptoms of a disease... but we really don't want to waste the time to see if they cause the disease...
doesn't that seem a little neglegent to you?

There are millions of people around the world just calling for reasonable research into the long term effects of vaccines and nothing is done, because it is more profitable not to do the research and pray upon our fears of disease. It is insulting the way you brush it off by making such a stupid and completely irrelivant comparison.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
BTW, Scientists have noted that if you compare a chart of children’s shoe sizes with their math test scores, they are remarkably similar. That is as the shoe sizes increase, the test scores get better.

Does that mean that small feet are the cause of poor test scores?

Correlation does not equate with causation.

Originally posted by blanketgirl
The point is that whatever it is, there is something causing the rise in autism.

Any medication you give people will have side effects. Both immediate and long term. Why is it that the drug companies seem to deny the fact that there could be long term side effects of vaccines?

I understand there is a difference between correlation and causation, but when you can look at vaccines and it can be difinitively said that they cause all the symptoms of a disease... but we really don't want to waste the time to see if they cause the disease...
doesn't that seem a little neglegent to you?

There are millions of people around the world just calling for reasonable research into the long term effects of vaccines and nothing is done, because it is more profitable not to do the research and pray upon our fears of disease. It is insulting the way you brush it off by making such a stupid and completely irrelivant comparison.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
BTW, Scientists have noted that if you compare a chart of children’s shoe sizes with their math test scores, they are remarkably similar. That is as the shoe sizes increase, the test scores get better.

Does that mean that small feet are the cause of poor test scores?

Correlation does not equate with causation.

There has already been years of research......the studies are showing it effectively prevents the disease, what more do you want? The research has also shown it does not have a link to autism, as that doctors theory to test it was debunked, after further clinical testing, and analyzation.

The "IT" you are referring to is MMR.
Studies keep being done to show that MMR alone does not by itself cause autism. Nothing else has been studied in relation to vaccines.
That is what I've kept saying. Can anybody find a study involving autism and vaccines that aren't MMR?

There have actually been studies (most specifically I know about the whooping cough studies) that show that some vaccines actually don't effectively prevent the diseases they are for.

Other than statements saying rates of various diseases have declined, there haven't been studies into the other epidemics showing up as vaccines become more prevalent.

How basic can you get...

We take a population, they keep dying of Disease A. We vaccinate for Disease A.
Suddenly, they all start coming down with random Syndrome A. We've never seen this before, but it's appearance corresponding to the vaccine couldn't possibly be related....
How is that not worth looking into?

I'm not even talking about just Autism, there are a number of new diseases and long term problems people are getting now that didn't exist before the vaccines. How does this not even get taken seriously as something we should be studying?

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
There has already been years of research......the studies are showing it effectively prevents the disease, what more do you want? The research has also shown it does not have a link to autism, as that doctors theory to test it was debunked, after further clinical testing, and analyzation.

Originally posted by blanketgirl

I'm not even talking about just Autism, there are a number of new diseases and long term problems people are getting now that didn't exist before the vaccines. How does this not even get taken seriously as something we should be studying?

Ok. If you list these long term problems, and new diseases, that will at least give me something to work with in terms of finding studies relating to either.

Otherwise we're going to be here for days going back and forth. Give me some leads

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by blanketgirl

I'm not even talking about just Autism, there are a number of new diseases and long term problems people are getting now that didn't exist before the vaccines. How does this not even get taken seriously as something we should be studying?

Ok. If you list these long term problems, and new diseases, that will at least give me something to work with in terms of finding studies relating to either.

Otherwise we're going to be here for days going back and forth. Give me some leads

She's just against them.....without any real evidence.....

I see this is a long arguement. My two cents is this:

I haven't had a shot since about 1st grade. There were scheduled shots all throughout school, but such was my childhood paranoia that I found ways to conveniently avoid them. Be it skipping classes, staying home, staying in the bathroom, etc. Even tetnis, which was supposed to be important. But I've impailed myself plenty of times on metal objects, and rusty ones too, over the years, and I feel fine. I don't know what lame excuse they use to pump us full of crud, but I'm not buying it. I haven't seen a needle touch me in over 20 years and I've only suffered normally with common colds, and lately some fast food poisoning, but that's all. I didn't see the benefit of shots in grade school and I don't see it now.

Originally posted by Incognita
I haven't seen a needle touch me in over 20 years and I've only suffered normally with common colds, and lately some fast food poisoning, but that's all. I didn't see the benefit of shots in grade school and I don't see it now.

You were lucky - probably because you went to school with a group of children who did get their shots....thus making it unlikely for you to actually catch anything!

Tetanus - that's a no-brainer....even with current vaccine concerns (which may or may not have any validity) you'd be somewhat less than smart to forego this if you were exposed to anything of a "stabby" nature. Tetanus isn't fun. Trust me.

(and for what it's worth, the tetanus vaccine doesn't use live toxin; you will not get tetanus from the vaccine itself).

When we're talking about measles, mumps and rubella, I'd rather have had the shots than the diseases themselves. I wasn't a lucky child, and I actually got landed with measles and mumps as a child (my mother says rubella too, but I'm not so sure about that one), and though neither left me with any lasting damage, I did become part of a local epidemic involving several deaths (from measles-related encephalitis).

I really don't want to , but I've personally seen too much heartache from the diseases themselves; whilst I acknowledge there are sometimes adverse events (and yes, even fatal reactions in extremely rare instances), these are by far outweighed by the protection offered.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by Incognita
I haven't seen a needle touch me in over 20 years and I've only suffered normally with common colds, and lately some fast food poisoning, but that's all. I didn't see the benefit of shots in grade school and I don't see it now.

You were lucky - probably because you went to school with a group of children who did get their shots....thus making it unlikely for you to actually catch anything!

Tetanus - that's a no-brainer....even with current vaccine concerns (which may or may not have any validity) you'd be somewhat less than smart to forego this if you were exposed to anything of a "stabby" nature. Tetanus isn't fun. Trust me.

(and for what it's worth, the tetanus vaccine doesn't use live toxin; you will not get tetanus from the vaccine itself).

When we're talking about measles, mumps and rubella, I'd rather have had the shots than the diseases themselves. I wasn't a lucky child, and I actually got landed with measles and mumps as a child (my mother says rubella too, but I'm not so sure about that one), and though neither left me with any lasting damage, I did become part of a local epidemic involving several deaths (from measles-related encephalitis).

I really don't want to

, but I've personally seen too much heartache from the diseases themselves; whilst I acknowledge there are sometimes adverse events (and yes, even fatal reactions in extremely rare instances), these are by far outweighed by the protection offered.

In mind, due to allergic reasons, I could NOT receive the whooping cough vaccination......SURE enough I got it, you think that's related, it's such a rare disorder, n I was so young coughing up blood, and did almost die, mum was by my side constantly, tryin to help me, with all kinds of ways, doctors meds, n everythin....=(...It was terrible, n luckily I suppose....I didn't die, but Tinkleflower your account reminded me of how this is just more proof of how useful vaccinations are.

(My nephew had a very, very nasty case of whooping cough too, leading to pneumonia and a scarred lung)

One day I'll post my story about a case of scarlet fever which led to rheumatic fever, and a need to take prophylactic antibiotics every time I get my teeth professionally cleaned to avoid endocarditis. Darn heart valves. Hmph.

(there's no vaccine to avoid scarlet fever; I was just in an "overly sharing" kind of mood. Like I do, once in awhile... )

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
(My nephew had a very, very nasty case of whooping cough too, leading to pneumonia and a scarred lung)

One day I'll post my story about a case of scarlet fever which led to rheumatic fever, and a need to take prophylactic antibiotics every time I get my teeth professionally cleaned to avoid endocarditis. Darn heart valves. Hmph.

(there's no vaccine to avoid scarlet fever; I was just in an "overly sharing" kind of mood. Like I do, once in awhile...

)

Aww....well...then you can post your story...be sure to tell me when you do, and I shall read of it....

Well, I know there was another girl who was Native American who wouldn't take the shots for religious purposes, that being that the skin was not to be cut open or pierced, so I actually skipped one set of shots in 7th grade with her. But as far as I know, no one else was skipping them.

However, I may just be lucky, the family blood is really strong, Grandparents about 80, still running around and don't take any meds for anything, perfectly healthy, so I think that might have something to do with it, naturally being immune or resistant to things.

It's not that I don't think other people shouldn't get them, I just really felt that it was something I didn't want to do, it really freaked me out, enough to skip them all those years without telling anyone. I felt I had the right to control what went into my body, yeah, even at the age of 6 or 10 or 13.

It's not that I don't think other people shouldn't get them, I just really felt that it was something I didn't want to do, it really freaked me out, enough to skip them all those years without telling anyone. I felt I had the right to control what went into my body, yeah, even at the age of 6 or 10 or 13.

However, not when you were a baby, and who knows what shots you got then.....

Of course natural immune system is a factor though in whether, or not one gets diseases, but against certain diseases, it's no protection at all....so maybe you were lucky...

Or....considering only two people avoided the shot....your just lucky everyone else did get it, to prevent the virus from spreading through the school, and to you, who was unprotected.

Hey, if a person is old enough to actually understand the ramifications of not getting preventative healthcare - I'm all for that

The problem is...

...most of us aren't so smart as kids.

Immunity to certain diseases (such as measles, rubella, etc) isn't passed on; in all likelihood you were just a good, strong healthy kid who didn't come into contact with anyone who actually had the nastier germs.

And that's cool.

If you're female though (sorry, can't tell from a nick alone!), you really really might want to think about rubella vaccination, in case you do get pregnant in the future.

And if you're not female, just ignore me. I worry too much about everyone else

Yeah, I'm a girl, so why do you say that, what's it got to do with being pregnant?