childhood "vaccinations"

You're suffering from three lousy pediatricians, blanketgirl.

IC (informed consents) invariably include a paragraph along the lines of...

" .... the patient may suffer complications which may result in permanent disability or death"

(I'm paraphrasing heavily - but this is a legal requirement, and with so many "watchdogs" in place, it seems unlikely that any real IC would omit this bit)

It appears that there are two main issues here.

1. Many patients don't understand the ramifications of "complications", or simply don't think "disability or death" applies to them. Have you ever asked a cataract surgery patient if they really think that death from (for example) a problem with anesthesia will actually happen to them? The answer would be "no". Most of us operate with this understanding...that these things happen, but never to us.

2. Certain physicians rush the signature process without fully explaining the IC form, or the ramifications therein.

If #2 applies - CHANGE YOUR PHYSICIAN. This can't be emphasized enough; take charge of your healthcare, ask the right questions, and if you feel that your consent is taken for granted, then ask why! If a doctor is unaware that he's "rushing" you, he's not going to know there's an issue, is he? Tell him. That's our responsibility as patients.

If #1 applies - it's time to take more responsibility for what's happening with our own healthcare. Do your research, make inquiries, and make sure you not only fully understand the procedure, but also that you understand the risks involved.

There are inherent risks with introducing any substance to your body - that also applies to vaccines; the same as virtually any medical procedure or medicine.

However, there's a much greater risk involved leaving your child open to a disease that is infinitely worse (in terms of mortality and disabling sequelae) than the vaccine itself.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
If #1 applies - it's time to take more responsibility for what's happening with our own healthcare. Do your research, make inquiries, and make sure you not only fully understand the procedure, but also that you understand the risks involved.

There are inherent risks with introducing any substance to your body - that also applies to vaccines; the same as virtually any medical procedure or medicine.

Tinkleflower, I have a feeling we are going to be left disagreeing, which is fine with me.
I do actually attribute most of my good health as well as my daughter's to the fact that I do get my research done outside of just what the doctors tell me. Yes, they have lots of schooling but they are people, they can't know everything.
Unfortunately, I think many times doctors do take a lot of their knowledge for granted and don't tell their patients how serious the effects of things could be.
They have this conflict -
take for example when I had a c-section for my daughter. This is a very serious thing, it could be terrible, we could both die etc. While yes, I was given forms and told terrible things could take place it was run by and sort of brushed off like it was a cakewalk... to them, this was just a normal thing they do a few times a day.

One unfortunate reality of the medical field is that to the doctor even when the bad things happen that is just one of the numbers so its not so big a deal. When it happens to you, *if* you survive you spend the rest of your time wishing it had really been explained and you understood that even though this was just a normal procedure, you could really be the one to suffer.

I'm not trying to make doctors sound heartless or anything, I know they care, but there is a certain amount they have to stay distant because it's not always happy.

I do believe there are alot more people hurt by vaccines than are recognized in the medical community. The way some doctors give shots... a child shouldn't be getting 10 diseases at a time. A lot of people don't really believe that there is a risk from vaccines, I have been told a few times my daughter wouldn't have a reaction unless something was already wrong.

Originally posted by cosmic fury
My girl has a 9 month year old daughter whose already been introduced to half her vaccinations, if you can call them that. In the next few days she's scheduled to get more. The mother of the 9mnth yr old is only 16 and her mother will be taking her to the appointment. I'm trying to convince her that it is not illegal to refuse these shots, that it is only useful for trying to get a child into the public school system. I don't think she's talked with her own mother about my opinion yet, but I know when the cats out of the bag, I'm going to get opposition from every angle, doctor, mother, siblings, etc. If not because their nature is to believe a doctor over an 18 yr old high school grad of '05, but also simply in spite of me because they're not happy with me or any of their daughter's other decisions; ya know, after having a kid under aged and all...difference is unlike them, I care with unconditional love, so...

What? You do realize that vaccinations are created to help people ? If you have any concerns go down to a clinic or do some browsing on the internet. (you have internet access becuase you posted here)

You really should get all the vaccinations! So many people create false rumors that there dangerous, or unecessary, well, if that was true, people would not have needed to have 12 babies in the past, to end up with /2/ surviving past the age of 6, we have them for reasons, to prevent diseases, many of which cause DEATH, or permanent damage to the child, whether physical, or mental.

It's just my opinion, you look at the medical side of this, and let your child be safe, and free of these diseases, which can so easily attack babies!

Sometimes a person has to let go of old fashioned values, to really help their child!

Originally posted by blanketgirl
A lot of people don't really believe that there is a risk from vaccines, I have been told a few times my daughter wouldn't have a reaction unless something was already wrong.

At the risk of sounding like a complete weirdo - many people also believe that the moon is home to little pink fuzzy creatures. This doesn't make it true or accurate, does it?

I'm curious as to why you'd believe people telling you that your daughter wouldn't have a reaction unless something was already wrong (which is misguided logic at best - it's like saying my child wouldn't have died from measles if she hadn't already had a cold, you know?), yet not believe the mountains of research - much of it NOT carried out by biased medico/pharma/legal organisations - showing the risk/benefit ratios of these vaccines?

The point remains:

Vaccines, as with virtually any medicine or medical procedure, will carry a certain risk. But the risk of damage from the actual disease is far greater, and carries far greater consequences in terms of epidemic potential, too.

I can understand a mistrust of the medical community - but such mistrust shouldn't cloud our judgement when it comes to protecting ourselves, and our families.

MMR and autism....no link found. By the way, the claim was first made by a British paediatrician. Subsequent studies have proven that there is no link, the latest such one coming out of Japan

MMR and autism....no link found. By the way, the claim was first made by a British paediatrician. Subsequent studies have proven that there is no link, the latest such one coming out of Japan

'Vaccines are safe...'
Just one of those little white lies MDs tell themselves to keep from being overburdened with guilt while driving their top of the line automobiles back and forth to the luxurious homes.

Truth is that vaccines fall in that 'waron' category... You know 'War on' drugs, terrorism and in this case of vaccines, war on disease.

Truth is vaccines have precious little to due with the prevention of disease. Vaccines fall in basically the same category as most MD-recommended cancer treatments... They KILL far more people than they help safeguard from diseases.

Of course your 'studies' don't find any link between MMR and autism. The problem you see is for a study on that basis to actually mean anything it would have to be based on valid data.

One of the cornerstones of a study of that type would be the truthful recording of adverse reactions to vaccines.

The truth is adverse reactions are ALMOST NEVER actually recorded!

No, the medical establishment totally ignores any reports of this type and explain it away with the most ridiculous of excuses.

My personal favorite that I witnessed, as the child screamed with horrible screams of pain for endless days, while the little boys brain was ravaged and largely destroyed and the parents looked on helplessly...

They called the pedetrician and the MD excused it away as an obvious case of 'night terrors'... Over the phone!

This living hell, caused by the mercury-based compound in a lot of vaccines, no, it's not part of the vaccine... it's just a preservative that manufacturers use to prolong the shelf-life of vaccines for no other reason than saving a few cents per dose cuz they simply can't be bothered to make the vaccines safe that they use to safeguard those children they are 'saving' from disease, lasted 10 days...

This very advanced child that was speaking at an early age, was never going to be the same. Standing there, as an awful and unspoken I told you so, was made horribly worse when I mentioned to the parents that the now split eye tracking of this little boys eyes seemed to be indicative of visual cortex damage.

Of course, they dutifully rushed the child to the hospital. I stood in the lobby and watched the dad looked like he was made from stone, the mom plead with the pediatrician to please help their little boy. Nothing they said or did was even seriously considered. They were just dismissed...

No MRI. No tests whatsoever... "He's probably just has the flu... He'll be alright in a few days."

Guess what? That's right. You've got it... No adverse reaction was recorded.

The other excuse that has really got to make you admire MDs superior knowledge of vaccines is when the child actually DIES! If you look at the statistics and according to the doctors, no it wasn't the vaccines that killed the child. No! It's usually attributed to SIDS.

No such disease folks. It is a total fabrication. I love to watch MDs jump up and down on that subject.

The truth is it's all about power, prestige, the money... and varoom, varoom.

Happy motoring!

Funny, as I physically added to several hundred databases, the very information you're alleging doesn't get noted.

The truth is probably lying somewhere in the middle, golum (ie, some side effects are buried, and some are overexaggerated)...but you're terribly misguided if you really do believe that adverse effects aren't noted or taken seriously.

They are.

Proof?

Think about the ratio of drugs approved versus not approved. Many more drugs are denied than approved.

Why?

Usually because of adverse side effects.

I've thought it sounded really stupid too, by all of the (now 4) pediatricians I have gone to. The three I have gone into deep conversation with have informed me a child who has had any recent signs of illness can't be vaccinated because it increases the chance of reaction. One insisted that the child would not be as likely to produce the right anti-bodies and could be made sick in the process. While I see how a weakened immune system could hinder the process, but saying all reactions happen to sick children - I don't believe that at all, I believe the vaccines themselves are far more dangerous than is realized.

Just like how we release all sorts of medications that are found to have terrible side effects years later, I don't think vaccines generally are researched enough. They are made, often rushed through the process so they can go out and save lives, and one scientist making one wrong move could effect everybody. They are people with big hearts but they are still people.

If something terrible was found out years later, I don't believe that we would be told. Could you imagine the press release... "sorry to the 25% of living people who have been injected with this... we screwed up and you might die or develop this new syndrome we discovered"

I'm sure that would go over well.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I'm curious as to why you'd believe people telling you that your daughter wouldn't have a reaction unless something was already wrong (which is misguided logic at best - it's like saying my child wouldn't have died from measles if she hadn't already had a cold, you know?), yet not believe the mountains of research - much of it NOT carried out by biased medico/pharma/legal organisations - showing the risk/benefit ratios of these vaccines?

Golemnia that is the most FOOLISH thing I ever heard. That hick logic will end up getting your children seriously deformed, permanent physical damage, or KILLED most likely, since you've already decided the entire medical industry is 'evil'.

By the way, BECAUSE of cancer treatment, victims of cancer live many years longer, if not have it cured, going into remission, if they catch it early. WITHOUT cancer treatment? It would spread, killing the person within a few months/maximum of a year. So your an idiot if you would refuse a family member to recieve treatments.

Listen to THIS advice.

The vaccinations protect our children against this.....The Black Plague. Which killed almost 70% of the human population on Earth when it erupted. There are THOUSANDS of diseases, which children who don't get vaccinations end up getting, leaving them with disfigring scars, permanent paralysis, or brain damage.

It's completely stupid to put a child at risk by refusing vaccinations. The world no longer has MILLIONS of children dying from these diseases. Why? The diseases still exist? The reason is SIMPLY that vaccinations were invented, and prevent these diseases from affecting the child, which would therefore kill them.

So go along, playing russian roulette with your families lives if you want, but the TRUTH is that vaccinations are an extremely important necessity, without which would leave our population in MASS crises, unable to control the billions of deaths, sicknesses, ect spreading, if the vaccines suddenly dissapeared we'd simply have another case of 70% of our population dying.

So you decide if it's a doctor's 'guilt trip'. Or maybe whether doctors force the issue, is because they don't want the next time they see your child, to be in the ER, seeking emergency care that will end up being fruitless, cause it's too late.

. They are made, often rushed through the process so they can go out and save lives, and one scientist making one wrong move could effect everybody. They are people with big hearts but they are still people. "

Honestly? It just seems that you're not really sure how drug approval works; on average it takes about 7 years for a drug (and that includes vaccines) to go from patent to approval.

Sometimes it's 5 years, some times it's as long as 11 years.

The only real exceptions to this would be drugs designated by the FDA as targeting "unmet medical needs" - in other words, the drug is the first to cure or treat XYZ condition. Though this sounds as if the drug will be approved more quickly, the reality is usually more along the lines of "The FDA and clinical trial company are in touch more frequently, which makes the whole thing run more smoothly". Fast track doesn't necessarily mean faster drug approval, though it often snips off a year or two from the approval process.

The down side of this is that the drugs which do go through the "Fast Track" process are required to undergo further testing after approval; and some companies can really drag their feet about this. That is a problem.

Also...it's never the case that just one scientist is responsible for drug formulation or manufacturer. There are so many checks and balances in place that this simply doesn't happen; believe me, drug companies do not want to be sued because they only had one guy in charge of (whatever process) and he made an error/went nuts/had a fatal illness that made him mentally unbalanced.

The real problem is that - as I've said earlier - because of the very nature of drug trials, we really don't start seeing perhaps missed side effects until the drug is released into the general population. This happens worldwide - it's not just the US (which kind of puts paid to the allegations that the US drug companies are running and ruining everything); it's the same process in Germany, the UK, the rest of Europe, South Africa, Australia...well, you get the drift.

And please don't think that I'm somehow putting the FDA up on a pedestal; I worked with the drug company in question and the FDA (as well as a few hundred lawyers and the Class Action team...oy) during the Phen-Fen debacle, and I'm painfully aware of the limitations and flaws of both.

I just wanted to try and offer a 'middle of the road' opinion: neither the drug companies or the FDA are out to kill you or harm you. They're imperfect entities and they do make mistakes. But their approved drugs have unquestionably saved the lives of millions - fa, far more than have been hurt or killed by these drugs.

And to add...

The truth does invariably come out, blanketgirl.

Because the drugs in question are rarely only sold in the US, it's inevitable that other reporting bodies, including those in other countries, would begin to note - and yes, make public! - any increased incidence of a side effect, and certainly any anomaly.

This is one of the reasons why Phen-Fen (brand names Pondimin and Redux) and Vioxx (to name just a few) were very quickly taken off the market.

Am I misreading your post, or are you saying that a mistake would automatically be covered up?

Thank you for at least the kind tone in your 'responses'.

>'Golemnia that is the most FOOLISH thing I ever heard. That hick logic will end up getting your children seriously deformed, permanent physical damage, or KILLED most likely, since you've already decided the entire medical industry is 'evil'.'

I find it strange that people defending innoculations (and drug-based conventional medicine) always need to use disinformation techniques or fear-mongering in transparent attempts to sway people to the effectiveness of 'conventional' medicine (or the supposed ineffectiveness of alternative medicine).

I don't mean to be rude QuestForSafety, but when it comes to fact, when it comes to the reality of the statements you are offering up in defense of MDs, you are just a walking propagandist, spouting mostly vague generalizations, with absolutely no valid basis.

You sound like nice folks, but you sound so brainwashed you don't even hear yourselves... Go back and reread your posts... you seem to blindly equate caring for disease with drugs+innoculations!

Or even better... you read a database! Please, have mercy. I might have hurt myself laughing.

A database? Great... Make sure you give me the 'cures' (or causes ) for autism (in all its forms... all the 'D's) + cancer.

The problem is attention to detail... Some might say I've been blessed (or cursed ) with superior attention to detail. You know... the kind that lets you REALLY understand certain types of information.

The basic bottom line is most people are simply not able to break thru the veneer that surrounds 'conventional' medicine and see that it is long on dogma and short on results. With the exception of emergency medicine (those boys and girls simply kick ass ), the supposed efficacy of 'conventional' medicine is an absolute fraud, a statistical manipulation accomplished with smoke and mirrors.

The statement about 'adding years'... would be uproariously funny if it didn't involve REAL peoples lives. I couldn't help but notice, you didn't bring up the quality of life of those 'added years'.

The truth is you win some, you lose some. What that means for me, is my friends that went conventional in dealing with cancer... They are ALL DEAD.

Those that went with alternative medicine, the have ALL recovered, the ones that were given a death sentence were especially sweet (2x).

(When the health care you are receiving has you starting to circle the drain, go see an alternative practitioner. )

For me the lose was not being able to help those that needed it the most and their absolute blind trust in people who were SUPPOSED to be watching out for their well-being...

Like I might have said before 'people will believe what they want to believe'...

>'So you decide if it's a doctor's 'guilt trip'.'
Don't worry. Doctors are totally immune to that type dialogue... They have their consciouses surgically removed in the first week of medical school... You know... in the same procedure where they are taught not to personally identify with the patient!






[edit on 4-8-2005 by golemina]

Originally posted by golemina
Thank you for at least the kind tone in your 'responses'.

>'Golemnia that is the most FOOLISH thing I ever heard. That hick logic will end up getting your children seriously deformed, permanent physical damage, or KILLED most likely, since you've already decided the entire medical industry is 'evil'.'

I find it strange that people defending innoculations (and drug-based conventional medicine) always need to use disinformation techniques or fear-mongering in transparent attempts to sway people to the effectiveness of 'conventional' medicine (or the supposed ineffectiveness of alternative medicine).

I don't mean to be rude QuestForSafety, but when it comes to fact, when it comes to the reality of the statements you are offering up in defense of MDs, you are just a walking propagandist, spouting mostly vague generalizations, with absolutely no valid basis.

You sound like nice folks, but you sound so brainwashed you don't even hear yourselves... Go back and reread your posts... you seem to blindly equate caring for disease with drugs+innoculations!

Or even better... you read a database! Please, have mercy. I might have hurt myself laughing.

A database? Great... Make sure you give me the 'cures' (or causes

) for autism (in all its forms... all the 'D's) + cancer.

The problem is attention to detail... Some might say I've been blessed (or cursed

) with superior attention to detail. You know... the kind that lets you REALLY understand certain types of information.

The basic bottom line is most people are simply not able to break thru the veneer that surrounds 'conventional' medicine and see that it is long on dogma and short on results. With the exception of emergency medicine (those boys and girls simply kick ass

), the supposed efficacy of 'conventional' medicine is an absolute fraud, a statistical manipulation accomplished with smoke and mirrors.

The statement about 'adding years'... would be uproariously funny if it didn't involve REAL peoples lives. I couldn't help but notice, you didn't bring up the quality of life of those 'added years'.

The truth is you win some, you lose some. What that means for me, is my friends that went conventional in dealing with cancer... They are ALL DEAD.

Those that went with alternative medicine, the have ALL recovered, the ones that were given a death sentence were especially sweet (2x).

(When the health care you are receiving has you starting to circle the drain, go see an alternative practitioner.

)

For me the lose was not being able to help those that needed it the most and their absolute blind trust in people who were SUPPOSED to be watching out for their well-being...

Like I might have said before 'people will believe what they want to believe'...

>'So you decide if it's a doctor's 'guilt trip'.'
Don't worry. Doctors are totally immune to that type dialogue... They have their consciouses surgically removed in the first week of medical school... You know... in the same procedure where they are taught not to personally identify with the patient!

[edit on 4-8-2005 by golemina]

I think your completely hypocritical, I have FACTS to rely on, such as average of 2 out of 6 children surviving before vaccinations were invented, and now an average of nearly 6/6, with minor decimal problems.

So that's that I guess, if you want to believe your own life experiences over the world's data, then fine, let's go to life experiences.

EVERY child born into my family, distant family, ect, has lived, and has been vaccinated properly, to ensure health.

As for my grandma? She tells me out of 8 kids she had....(Yes she was a baby machine), but I asked her why, she said because back in her day it was just what happened since they didn't have the vaccinations they do today, the kids would get some disease, causing anything from severe high fever, to lack of brain function, then boom, they'd die. Out of all her children she only has 3 left, and she says she can take it more easily, because all the others died when they were young, and she realizes now if she would have known about vaccinations in her time, she would have listened, and had them for her children.

But whatever, as you say, maybe there "all out to get us", perhaps the medical community is a bunch of brainwashed people who want to provide people with no help, just make money by prescribing more drugs...(Even though this has nothing to do with the doctors actual pay).

In MY experiences, and the experiences of the world, MANY drugs, help patients tremendously....for example, the antibiotics I receieved for INTENSE kidney pain, when my kidney's were dangerously near shutting down, I was younger, and luckily my parents weren't stupid paranoid anti doctor individuals, so I got the antibiotics, took them, and had to take them a couple times later for affects, but now nearly 10 years later, I have not had one single kidney infection, or problem since. So personally, since they've saved my life, and those of billions of children who were able to be vaccinated, I do trust in medicines, not blindly, as I research some, but I do trust in them.

It's interesting someone brought up Vioxx, backpain/joint medication if I'm right, a pain med basically, that's supposed to also help. It WAS taken off the market, but when you look more deeply at it, simply because more side affects were discovered, not potentially horrid ones for MOST people, but tiny instances like this cause companies to go berserk, n take things off the shelves. My mother, and sister were both on Vioxx, Jenn no longer is, but mum actually has the stuff specially ordered, as she's a nurse, and knows the risks, and hasn't found a suitable replacement for that drug, despite trying various other kinds, which didn't quite work.

So no, I'm not brainwashed, in fact I've flat out refused medications at times, simply because I don't wish to involve their side effects, which don't outweigh good effects, for SOME particular cases, in other cases, I've gone against doctor advise, and ASKED for a certain medication I researched, finding that for me, it would have more gains than things possibly going wrong, since I know I'm young n healthy, not likely to experience liver problems, especially since I take many healthy suppliments, and also antioxidants, to prevent free radical damage, and get rid of toxins in the body causing harm to cells, or danger.

In the end it comes down to this, are you the brainwashed one? From a few life experiences, as TRAGIC, and SERIOUS as they must have been, perhaps you don't realize how much they effect you. Going to the extent to say all doctors are frauds, and no medicine really works is just plain foolish, one day when it comes to something like....say lowering your cholesteral, maybe you'll listen to your doctor, and lead a NORMAL perfectly healthy life, or maybe you'll refuse, and have a heart attack within a low time frame after....or who knows, maybe you'll get LUCKY, and manage to get through without problems, just suffering from the minor symptoms of high cholesteral, or whatever, it's only hypothetical.

I just think you should really take a better look at the medical community, not totally toss them away, your personal real life cases involving cancer may be complete coincidences, especially when compared to....YES mass data, involving millions of people, not just a few friends, who got lucky n made it on their OWN bodies defences, not voodoo magic of some other practioner, for god knows some of the cures some ppl rant about are just deadly, and could cause it to spread faster....., and as for your friends dying, I'm really sorry to hear that....I've lost many friends/3 family members to cancer myself, and it saddens me greatly, but also like you I have my experiences....

Everyone died.......

HOWEVER, my mothers cousin lived 18 years longer than expected, because the kimotherapy, managed to keep the cancer from spreading, no cure, but it kept it from spreading FASTER, for all those years, when according to the tests, without treatment he would have died right away.

As for my other family members they were both old, and all I know is that as soon as they said they'd had enough of the treatments, and wanted to try just going on their own hoping for the best, they both died within a few weeks...exactly what the doctor told them....if they had listened....they might still be alive today...maybe a bit of hair loss...maybe some weakness from the kimo, or radiation therapy, but they'd be ALIVE, there would be a chance, and they would be happy to be around longer, I know it, since they miss their loved ones, and I could see that in the eyes of my grandfather, as he lay dying in his bed, after he gave up on the treatments, it was over......they gave his body a chance to last longer...to prevent fast spreading.....oncef stopped the cancer was so far it spread so rapidly he literally just died before our eyes...

Anyway.....I've now allowed you to see I quote both statistics, and also personal references, but there's something you missed in my rantlike post. It was not me being brainwashed, if you look closely, there was plain LOGIC, a thinking pattern was displayed, given as an example, and shown that logically anyone who cared about their children would vaccinate them.

That's all I can say, in my opinion.

Quest,
Obviously you have had good experiences with doctors/medications. That is great, I am happy for you. Maybe you and your relatives are the perfect people for doctors to work with.

Have you looked into any of the factors outside of vaccines that are leading to longer life spans? Ever thought about sanitation? Nutrition? the MAJOR change in the average quality of life in the past 50-100 years?

My grandmother had 10 kids. None vaccinated, most of the current vaccines weren't even out yet. The first one to die was 50 when he had a heart attack.
I'm sorry your grandmother's children didn't fare so well, but that doesn't mean these diseases hit everybody's families so hard. The vaccines we have today are for diseases that were once just considered normal childhood illnesses, their effects have been glorified to us by the people who make money off the vaccines.

Your doctor gets paid to tell you your children run a severe risk and could die if they aren't vaccinated for X... for example: Why on earth would you vaccinate a newborn for Hepatitus A? They aren't even at risk until they are old enough to need the booster shot which most of them never get.

Vitamins were once considered unhealthy, people didn't have cleaning and disinfecting products shielding their homes from the littlest virus and you used to have more children out working in fields tending animals. People now are broke but more developed countries don't have so many malnutritioned bodies who can't fight off illness like they used to.

Then you can look at something like Polio in the US, after the redid the vaccine because the original was killing people (but remember, it was extensively tested before being released...)
Documented cases of Polio were in rapid decline BEFORE the vaccine was put out. There is no way to know how effective it really was in the population because the disease was on it's way out before it got to any of the people who needed it.

I trust that your grandmother has many wise things to say, but her thinking vaccines are the reason children survive doesn't make it the reality.

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
I think your completely hypocritical, I have FACTS to rely on, such as average of 2 out of 6 children surviving before vaccinations were invented, and now an average of nearly 6/6, with minor decimal problems.

So that's that I guess, if you want to believe your own life experiences over the world's data, then fine, let's go to life experiences.

EVERY child born into my family, distant family, ect, has lived, and has been vaccinated properly, to ensure health.

As for my grandma? She tells me out of 8 kids she had....(Yes she was a baby machine), but I asked her why, she said because back in her day it was just what happened since they didn't have the vaccinations they do today, the kids would get some disease, causing anything from severe high fever, to lack of brain function, then boom, they'd die. Out of all her children she only has 3 left, and she says she can take it more easily, because all the others died when they were young, and she realizes now if she would have known about vaccinations in her time, she would have listened, and had them for her children.

So is it now safe to assume that:

Those who provide facts (which don't support your point of view) are simply disinformation agents because you don't agree, or cannot disprove those facts?

Blanketgirl, you seem to have spent a lot of time trying to ridicule the people who have actually gone out of their way to provide you with evidence so that you can actually be better informed. That's truly disappointing; you say that you're the one who's paying the most attention to detail, and yet all we see is the same argument over and over, with virtually nothing to back it up.

Of course, any evidence I bring up must be suspect, right? Because I worked within the industry?

Have you found anything in your studies to contradict the claims you don't believe?

Blanketgirl has clearly hit the nail on the head.

Good nutrition AND hygiene and... (->)

I sense and more importantly sympathize with your outrage QuestForSafety... But the plain simple truth is in reaching down in your desire to 'set me straight', all you've really accomplished is to reveal a basic underlying ignorance of medicine... not thru any fault of your own, just because apparently the 'drugs drugs drugs' bell is the only one you've heard.

I will underline it once more cuz it's worthy of repeating... The fine boys and girls responsible for emergency medicine kick some serious glutmax. They are both a credit to the word doctor... and the concept of a healer.

The bottom line is the human body is an absolute marvel of engineering. The problem with the typical MD practitioner is their concept of medicine, the disease model, is hughly flawed, seemingly more a car mechanics point of view (replace these organs, you don't really need that stomach, oh! you want to be a woman...) than the healer put forth in the Hypocratic Oath.

Instead of really seeing the tiny variations from the ideal workings of the healthy human body and gently nudging back, in the 'do no harm' mindset, to its normal functioning...

No! They are a truely sad parody of an all-seeing all-knowing man of science. Here have some drugs! or better yet, let's cut something!

Master! Master... Let me cut him.

They treat pain as something to be masked, instead of recognizing the true significance of the warning being sent out...

There are literally thousands of examples to pick from on the insane treatments doled out by MDs. Let's pick my two favorites...

Bed wetting. That willful child! Let's spank, give drugs, or send him for counseling, etc. etc.

golem just shakes his head. A two second middle spine adjustment will tada! take care of the problem once and for all.

Carpel Tunnel Syndrome.

Let's do surgery! We'll make the channel bigger.

golems just shakes his head. It is just a variation of tendonitis. Tendons and ligaments get irritated if you do something TOO much. A) stop doing that so much or heaven forbid shift something around. B) Get a 'joints' supplement from your friendly health food store person.

Not as dramatic as surgery! but in anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks... Tada! All better.

Hey Tinkleflower, add THAT to your database.

('Those who provide facts (which don't support your point of view) are simply disinformation agents because you don't agree, or cannot disprove those facts?'

Of course not!

But that statement certainly is a disinformation method.

Did I read your statement too quickly and miss the cures/causes from your medical databases?

[edit on 5-8-2005 by golemina]

The actual reason I don't give a bunch of links is it means I have to go find things again.
To be completely honest with you, the only thing I have found that has made me think any vaccines were truly doing their job and not posing a huge risk (often worse than the illness itself) is reading about the Tetnus shot.
That one I agree with and it does not seem to pose a huge risk. Most of the "evidence" I see are people reposting the numbers released by the people who make money off of us all getting vaccines.

What I also wanted to find and couldn't today, was a US supreme court case where they ruled that while the vaccine itself didn't actually cause Autism, ingredients in the vaccine caused the symptoms that together were referred to as Autism...
how nitpicky can you get? It's like saying "my giving you a cold isn't what got you sick, it's the symptoms you got from me that cause your illness..."


If you want to know more, go read any of what these people say or do a basic search, it's not hard to find people with problems:
www.unsafescience.com... about polio and AIDS
www.thebirdman.org...
www.mercola.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.mercola.com...
www.lewrockwell.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.lewrockwell.com... this and next re:mercury
www.laleva.org...
www.newmediaexplorer.org... re: mercury and autism
www.redflagsweekly.com... immune impairment
tell me if this one doesn't sound a little like a cover up:
www.altcorp.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.altcorp.com...

If you want to talk about vaccines being adequitely tested before release:
www.chronogram.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.chronogram.com...

2 outtakes for you from the last link:
"For example, when the diptheria vaccine was made mandatory in Germany during World War II, there was a 17 percent increase in the number of cases and a 600 percent rise in deaths from diptheria.

A 1994 study found that children with asthma were five times more likely than not to have received the pertussis vaccine. It is associated with Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (sids). In Japan, a dramatic reduction in sids since 1979 has followed the postponement of the DPaT until after 24 months. Great Britain and Sweden stopped mandatory pertussis vaccination in the early 1970s. In the US and elsewhere, resurgences of whooping cough occur despite high incidence of vaccination. The efficacy rate of the pertussis vaccine is questionable, since rates began steadily climbing in the 1980s in children who are vaccinated. Waning efficacy rates and vaccine-resistant bacteria are also problems."

www.gulfwarvets.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.gulfwarvets.com...
some outtakes of the last one:
"There is also the problem of contamination that has always plagued vaccine makers. During World War II a yellow fever vaccine manufactured with human blood serum was unknowingly contaminated with hepatitis virus and given to the military. As a result, more than 50,000 cases of serum hepatitis broke out among American troops injected with the vaccine.
In the 1960s it was discovered that polio vaccines manufactured in monkey kidney tissue between 1955 and 1963 were contaminated with a monkey virus (Simian Virus, number 40).
...
Using kids as guinea pigs in potentially harmful vaccine experiments is every parents' worst nightmare. This actually happened in 1989-1991 when Kaiser Permanente of Southern California and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) jointly conducted a measles vaccine experiment. Without proper parental disclosure, the Yugoslavian-made "high titre" Edmonston-Zagreb measles vaccine was tested on 1,500 poor, primarily black and Latino, inner city children in Los Angeles. Highly recommended by the World Health Organization (WHO), the high-potency experimental vaccine was previously injected into infants in Mexico, Haiti, and Africa. It was discontinued in these countries when it was discovered that the children were dying in large numbers.
Unbelievably, the measles vaccine caused long-term suppression of the children's immune system for six months up to three years. As a result, the immunodepressed children died from other diseases in greater numbers than children who had never received the vaccine.
Tragically, African girl babies in the experiment were given twice the dose of boys, and therefore suffered a higher death rate. The WHO pulled the vaccine off the market in 1992.

Apparently the WHO has been developing and testing anti-fertility
vaccines for over two decades. Women receiving the laced tetanus shot
not only developed antibodies to tetanus, but they also developed
dangerous antibodies to the pregnancy hormone as well. "


This next one goes through some interesting past cases with HUMAN TEST SUBJECTS www.bme.utexas.edu...
" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.bme.utexas.edu...


Would you like to talk about the efficiency of those looking after our health?weldon.house.gov..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> weldon.house.gov...
excerpt:
“[The] Public Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as soon as possible. Similar conclusions were reached this year in a meeting attended by European regulatory agencies, the European vaccine manufacturers, and the U.S. FDA which examined the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines produced or sold in European countries.”

Here we are six years later still fighting to fully implement this policy, as mercury remains in most childhood flu vaccines. Mercury should have been removed from all childhood vaccines a long time ago. "

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Blanketgirl, you seem to have spent a lot of time trying to ridicule the people who have actually gone out of their way to provide you with evidence so that you can actually be better informed. That's truly disappointing; you say that you're the one who's paying the most attention to detail, and yet all we see is the same argument over and over, with virtually nothing to back it up.

Of course, any evidence I bring up must be suspect, right? Because I worked within the industry?

Have you found anything in your studies to contradict the claims you don't believe?

Golemina - at the risk of a warning, do you have anything to offer other than a post filled with..uh..twaddle?

Don't you see you're being as extreme as the person who demands antibiotics for a common cold?

Ideally, it'd be about balance, surely? Not decrying doctors/medicines "just because"? Or did we hit on your agenda? I can stick smilies throughout a post, too - it doesn't change the message, believe me

Blanketgirl - first, thankyou for actually digging up those links. They probably support an allegation much more than simply laying out accusatory statements and the like.

Though I get twitchy upon seeing Mercola just on principle (look! an admission of my own bias!), I will take a peek at the links, k?