France and UK prepare for co-operation over aircraft carriers

Janes
A source at the centre of negotiations between France and the UK regarding co-operation on the development of future aircraft carriers for both navies has said he is "convinced" that the governments are poised to enter into a "collaborative programme".

It is three years since the possibility of using designs for the UK's Future Aircraft Carrier (CVF) programme as the basis for France's PA2 aircraft carrier was first raised, with a view to shared procurement of equipment to reduce costs.

"I am convinced that this will happen," a source involved in the negotiations told Jane's Defence Industry.

He added: "The negotiations have been long, but they have been very positive and I expect a decision to be reached soon."

His comments came as defence companies, including BAE Systems and Thales, lead contractors in the CVF programme, were reported to be preparing to present a report to the governments on the proposed collaboration. The analysis is expected to look at the risks and benefits of either shared procurement of equipment or joint construction of the ships.

Earlier studies by prime contract office designate MOPA2 (Maìtrise d'Oeuvre Porte Avions No 2) - set up by Thales and DCN in 2004 to manage the PA2 programme at industry level - envisaged a carrier of approximately 60,000 tonnes; comparable in size to the CVF.

The source at the centre of the negotiations said: "It [collaboration] presents a cost-effective solution for France" that "appears to meet our requirements" and "has the added benefit of a positive step in Anglo-French relations."

This I hope is good news esp. as it will mean that we will get at least a 60,000 ton carrier instead of facing a cost cutting exercise to 40,000 carrier.

Also this raises interesting questions on the aircraft the carrier will take, as it will be capable of having Rafales so we will not be reliant on having JSF.

The thread UK threatening to pull out of the F-35 JSF programme if the US dose'nt share technology makes good reading esp. owell's post

Now the navy was very intrested untill boeing cancelled any plans to make a AEW based on the V-22, on top of that the upping of the size and weight of the new navy carriers.

Guess what they really really want.. in order of most wanted from santa clause

1) a naval typhoon
2) USN JSF F-32(c)?
3) Ooo no a Rafale

I guess the last comes from a stand point of royal navy and france now look like building the carriers for both there navies, would be cheaper i guess.

Which direction do you think the Royal Navy will go with the CVF and its aircraft.



[edit on 22-6-2005 by Popeye]

it is good news if they go ahead with it. The uk designs are all made to be used as either a STOVL carrier or as a CTOL carrier. The plans would be for the UK and french carrier to share the same basic stuctural designs and hull form but have a differing weapons and sensor fit for each party. We would still build 2 and france 1 (for now). I can even see the project developing past that, if we could convince Germany, Spain, Italy etc that they want new carriers we end up with a EuroCarrier project! with a comman basic design and a country specific outfitting.

The 40,000dwt design hasnt been seriously in the running for a few years now.

I can even see the project developing past that, if we could convince Germany, Spain, Italy etc that they want new carriers we end up with a EuroCarrier project! with a comman basic design and a country specific outfitting.

well... you brits dont want to have germany in such a project, nor wants france...



you disallowed us this together with the USA and Russia in the 2+4 treaty....

why would we not want to work with france to develop the carrier? If they join the project there is more chance of the UK government not cancelling at the last min. The french and UK navies work very closely together already and this would only strengthen the bond between europes 2 largest navies. While you are right that germanies strength is limited by treaty i dont see why that should still be the case in the future. The Germany of now is not the germany of yesteryear and it never will be.

Germany would certainly not be too eager to build a carrier that they wouldnt have any planes for. Especially since I heard on an aircraft forum that Germany is going to scrap its marine airplane squadrons (cant find the link though).

Would be really funny if Germany would buy french Rafale, which itself is only a product of France´s pulling out of the Eurofighter project, because Germany and UK didnt want to go for a naval version back then.... (of course there were other reasons, too, but this seemed to be the main point of discussion IMO)

Lets see, if they start now, they will have a projected release around 2015, so judging from the EF, the release would be around 2025. At that time they would have an overpriced but formidable Eurocarrier, innovative, low maintenance costs and perfectly fitting into its role.... but simply not needed anymore


[edit on 22-6-2005 by Lonestar24]

[edit on 22-6-2005 by Lonestar24]

comon Brits !!! dont work with the Frenchies they aint to be trusted on developing the aircraft carriers, work with the U.S. of A. instead . work with the French and the project will just come down.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Germany would certainly not be too eager to build a carrier that they wouldnt have any planes for. Especially since I heard on an aircraft forum that Germany is going to scrap its marine airplane squadrons (cant find the link though).

The marine airplane squadrons that are made up by tornados will go to the Airforce from Navy, so its just a buerocratic thing, those still exist, same persons fly them etc.

Reason is, that the Airforce has much more Tornados, and its this way cheaper to maintain them, as before Navy had to maintain them independantly...

AFAIK working with the french and other european countries proved to be more effective and reliable, especially in the light of current pentagon security issues. At least one knows to have somewhat equal voice in decisions made concerning a european joint project.

I hope this goes ahead, sounds as though it could be good news indeed!

Glad to see that even though our two governments disagree on many things we can still be grown up enough to work together for mutual benefit, and if other countries want to get involved the more the merrier.

Originally posted by deltaboy
comon Brits !!! dont work with the Frenchies they aint to be trusted on developing the aircraft carriers, work with the U.S. of A. instead

. work with the French and the project will just come down.

Nah the warmongerers have had their chance.

If we work with the US, we will just end up in more wars.

Besides the French are far more trustworthy than the current US administration.

Originally posted by deltaboy
comon Brits !!! dont work with the Frenchies they aint to be trusted on developing the aircraft carriers, work with the U.S. of A. instead

. work with the French and the project will just come down.

I would love for th UK to beome a partner in CVNX project, but I cannot see the UK (Military budget $37b) being able to affort 2 carriers at $6-8b for a single carrier, not to mention the facilities to support them or the aircraft to go one them (BTW even though UK has about the fourth or fifth largest budget in the world it is stil dwarfed by the US budget which is approaching a $1 trillion.!!

Also I definitely think it is unlikely that the US would every do a carrier project of the size the UK (or anyone else) wouldd be able to afford to participate in.

Lets see, if they start now, they will have a projected release around 2015, so judging from the EF, the release would be around 2025. At that time they would have an overpriced but formidable Eurocarrier, innovative, low maintenance costs and perfectly fitting into its role.... but simply not needed anymore

The designs for the uk carriers are all but done and the project is just waiting for official go ahead to start cutting steel.

Adapting the designs for france and any others who wanted them would not effect the building of the Uk ones. This would not be the same as eurofighter in that the carriers would all be based on the UK hullform and layout which is already fixed and extreamly adaptable. There would be no going back to the start and redesigning the vessels from the beginning. It is more like selling the finished hull designs cheeply to our other european allies, for them to adapt to their needs as they see fit, rather than a group project. It allows them to miss out on the first 10 years of develoment and rapidly increase the force projection powers of the europen NATO countries.

I mentioned germany in the context that after the UK and France; germany, italy and spain have the largest navies/money in europe and so are the most likely to percieve a need and obtain the funding for such a project.

Originally posted by Popeye
I would love for th UK to beome a partner in CVNX project, but I cannot see the UK (Military budget $37b) being able to affort 2 carriers at $6-8b for a single carrier, not to mention the facilities to support them or the aircraft to go one them

even if the UK's budget is small compare to U.S. of A. im sure sombody thought of an idea that helping provide money to pay half the money to build two aircraft carriers for the UK would help America boost security, think of it as adding 2 carriers to the U.S. Navy. even if the carriers are UK's they can be "borrowed" by the U.S. Navy to help fight in ani future conflict.

Another link:

most of the cost of US carriers is the Nucler propulsion systems. With the one we are getting we have 2 carriers 2/3rds the size of the US ones for £3.5billion (for the pair). seems like a bargin to me.

most of the cost of US carriers is the Nucler propulsion systems. With the one we are getting we have 2 carriers 2/3rds the size of the US ones for £3.5billion (for the pair). seems like a bargin to me.

Yes ,but what about the capabilities of that Carrier, sure if you only consider cost and size it may seem like a good deal.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yes ,but what about the capabilities of that Carrier, sure if you only consider cost and size it may seem like a good deal.

For what we need its fine.
We are not in the buisness of starting fights , we prefer to finish them.

Paperplane and Devil Wasp are correct...the costs of the American aircraft carriers is heavily invested in the nuclear power plants and associated equipment. The bulk of moneys for a carrier are spent here. This is a cost for which most peoples havent a clue and for which the Navy or certain government officials involved are reluctant to speak. Same for nuclear submarines. Huge unspoken costs in this arena in these projects. Most of the public has no clue..they are out to lunch on this.

Conventional carriers of the size they are speaking are ideal for European uses. There are limitations to their usage but strategys take these into account. Remember..costs are going to be the key factors in the future against currencys that are depreciating in value or purchasing power.(We ignorantly call this inflation). America too ..is not immune to this depreciation.
Remember the SR 71 high speed blackbird reconnaissance airplane. The irony of the success of the program ..is that the plane was in its time so fast ...and the program so successful..the only thing of historical record that could catch up to it was a budget cut. It is the same with any military project. We here in American are not immune to this phenomonon. Our cousins and relations across the sea ...more so. Their needs and ours are not the same. Even between themselves they have slightly different needs as individual countries in aircraft carrier design and functionality. I am sure this difference is being designed into the project. For us to view their needs through our eyes and egos is to do them a great diservice.
I hope that they can successfully overcome their politics and disagreements and get this project to fruition as their fleets like ours suffer aging and other replacement problems.

Thanks to all for some good posts on this topic,
Orangetom

off topic alittle.


When the intial design work was done the carrier, and the conventional layout started to look like real option(cats/arrestors hooks etc)

Acorrding to my Friends father, The RN looked a range of aircraft for the carriers. the one i liked personally most was apparently termed " The britania option" it was like the name suggest a home grown affair.

The fighter/attack wing would be a naval version of the Typhoon

The AEW(this is my favourite) would be based on a redesigned BAe-146( shortered and possibly even reduced to 2 bigger engines weight would of been reduced enormously.

The ASW/SAR was of course the MERLIN.

There were also other options, including one involving ex USN Vikings what ever the RN wanted them for wasn`t what they was designed for(thats all i know about that sorry)

May add these were all possible ideas/draft ideas,outlines etc nothing was in concrete more options and back options incase the main idea failed.

The carriers are designed for the use of cats/arrester gear if it is decided to use them at a later date (or if JSF falls through). The flight deck is also designed as an angled FD rather than a straight one (i.e. invincible class), even though current Uk policy is that it wont be used as such. They have been designed with unused spaces within the structure to allow for changes and upgrades to the existing kit. The mod also conducted some initial studies into using electromagnetic cats rather than steam but i am not sure what happened to it?