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Bush says US more secure

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posted on May, 31 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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Again, you fail to see the point, why does this justify America to do the same evils that Europe and the rest of the first world does? […] Your mother mustn’t have done a very good job when it came to the day she was supposed to say: ‘Two wrong don’t make a right…”



You prove my point. You aren't even willing to admit the Europeans are just as wrong, America has to be worse for some reason.

Europe has no reason for what they do but their greed. They don't have to even try and make one up because people like you are too busy bitching about everything America does, doesn't do, or might even be thinking of doing.


In any event, I think you would find that US imperialism spreads much wider than Europe – and in any case, the subject of this thread is “Bush says US is more secure” this thread has nothing to do with Europe, you are just trying to divert attention away from your own country… And again I will repeat my point you seem to keep missing – WHY DOES WHAT EUROPE DOES JUSTIFY WHAT AMERICA DOES !?!! – I will admit, European imperialism is a big problem, but the US is the focus of this thread!

And you say that European imperialism acts out of greed – then what does American imperialism act out of? British or Australian? – Imperialism is imperialism no matter who is dealing the cards…



All it would take for America to collapse is for Venezuela to all of a sudden nationalise all its Oil, and switch trade over to China… In case you were one of those Americans who seem to think that petrol comes out of a bowser, heres a fact: Venezuela produces more than 15% of the United States oil… Now imagine what would happen if suddenly that 15% wasn’t there…



America would invade Venezuela, and the problem would be solved.


You don’t think that the Venezuelan people would band together to protect their (soon to be) Socialist revolution? – You don’t think Cuba would join the fight? – You don’t think you would have another Vietnam style radicalisation – basically all of America saying enough is enough… Because you see, regardless of the spin your government puts out, Chavez has been democratically elected 6 times, survived a US backed coup, and has gained an a approval rating of 70% over the entire Latin American continent…

Its no where near as easy as you are trying to make out – the only reason the US led coalition has ‘won’ in Iraq is because you destroyed their country 10 years ago… Think with your own brain for a change…



The only reason America is so damn powerful – is because it has manipulated and taken advantage of the third-world – They, along with the rest of the Westernised first-world are the reason why the third-world is in ruins… And if you think that America could survive (and keep its current sphere of dominance, and way of life) without its offshore ‘assets’ you are sadly mistaken…



The problem is, we're not about to loose our "offshore assets." If someone threatens our interests, we have the military and economic strength to destroy them. At this time, this is true of any individual nation.


You wish it was that easy !!! – If it was, you wouldn’t be copping so much retaliation from Iraq – and Saddam was a monster – Try tricking the world into thinking Chavez has got Nuclear Weapons…



A state of chaos is all out war. A few suicide bombers in the big cities of Iraq does not make a nation in chaos. Coahilition troops are actually starting to move away from the cities. The government is function very well for how young it is.


    cha·os:
    n.
  1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
  2. A disorderly mass;


I think that Iraq is most definitely in a state of chaos, the Iraqi people are wondering why the US is still there, they found no WMD’s, they arrested Saddam, they had elections – and the Iraqi people want Iraq for Iraqis… The resistance that is taking place in Iraq is resisting against something – if the Coalition Forces removed themselves from Iraq – there wouldn’t be anyone to resist against…



While ever road blocks are going on the Iraqi people are not ‘free’ – While ever the US is there the Iraqi people are not ‘free’ – While ever there are suicide bombers on the loose the Iraqi people are not ‘free’… And while ever the US is the sole profiteer of the Iraqi oil – the Iraqi people will not be ‘free’…



The road blocks are near government buildings and other such locations. The same things are present everywhere.


You missed the point again! While ever Iraq is not 100% self sufficient – they will never be free… And that is not going to happen anytime soon, as long as foreign troops are present and as long as foreign monopolies have control over Iraq’s oil… This Talebani character is the newest puppet for US imperialism, he is allowing foreigners to rape his country!



People are still being tortured – only now its not Saddam, its US and British soldiers stripping down Iraqi POW’s and putting them in uncomfortable sexual situations with each other, taking pictures of that, and then spreading around the world…



What you just named was about as extreme as the American "torture" got. That's the sad thing. It's not even close to being comparable to what Saddam did. […] You, nor anyone else, can prove torture is America's policy. The scandels have been of isolated incidents in which the offenders were punished. […] been in Guantanamo […] no real evidence of torture.


It’s a shame that the people, who actually ordered those men to commit those disgusting crimes, have yet to see the inside of a gaol (jail) cell. And again you are playing the blame game, “Saddam did worse, so what we do is by nature okay” – I’m not saying that what Saddam is right (in fact it was worse than what the US and UK have done) – BUT THAT DOESN’T JUSTIFY WHAT THE US DOES !!! – Again, 2 wrongs – do not – make a right!

As for Guantannamo Bay, how is having hundreds (if not thousands) of people locked up in prison cells for 23-hours a day, with no access to a lawyer, and not allowing them inside a courtroom for the ‘crimes’ they are in actuality being held for – How is that freedom or justice? – Not even mentioning the fact that the US actually having Guantannamo Bay is illegal…



TELL ME THIS: does voting once every 4 years define what freedom and democracy are? – Or is all this a facade of the corporate elite who rule the show…



Americans don't vote once every four years. There are number of local elections, senate elections etc. There will be another national election in 2006.

And the Iraqis will have another election at the end of this year.


Once every four years you vote for a local representative
Once every four years you vote for a state senator
Once every four years you vote for a President

That is not democracy – this is a sham – do the people actually decide what they want/need? – No they have aristocrats in suits deciding what the world needs, then the government is the tool for those fat cats… Proletarian democracy is the only form of democracy capable, anything else is a sham – designed to fool you into becoming lazy and ignorant, so the system can rape you of all you’re worth



You’ll be eating your own faeces in approximately 6 months when the US actually does invade Iran… You don’t think it was all part of a grand scheme to invade Iraq first, and spread the words freedom and democracy around – then say that Iran needs the same treatment… please




Until we actually invade Iran, you really can't bitch at America for it. I think a nation has to actually do something before you can complain.


It’ll be too late then, you’re concept of when we should do something is ridiculous – Not to mention the US is already preluding the nation to a war in Iran, you can see the lies they are spreading… I seriously cant wait (in some ways) until the US does invade Iran – because hopefully then the US populous will say enough is enough… Your way is a cowards way out, and is merely facilitating ignorance…



Speaking of evils ‘and sinking to a low’ – Have you ever heard of the Iran/Contra affair?



The Iran-Contra affair is more justified then people will ever realize. If we didn't support Iran, we might possibly have had Saddam take Iran. He was bound to attack Kuwait. He would have been able to attack Saudi Arabia. Basically, he would have been in a position to control the world's oil. We gave Iran weapons to balance power in the region.


You put Saddam in place specifically because he was an enemy of Iran, then when he invaded Kuwait instead, you felt betrayed – THAT’S what caused the Gulf War… And as for the Contra, the US government was literally sponsoring terrorism – they funded the Contra’s and supported them in their plight against the justice being created by Sandinistas government – you sponsored an organisation that raped entire villages of women, that killed innocents – all just so a half-socialist government couldn’t be instated, and people could start taking control..



How old are you? Like 14? – An argument like this is ridiculous… Humans are by nature social animals who depend, rely and work with each other… In fact, if you look at the majority of human history (pre-history) it has always been that the strongest member of the tribe protected his fellow.



Complete bull. I suppose all of those human sacrafices are ancesters were fond of are what you mean, right? Looking out for the weak alright...How about the way women were treated? How about the fact that in pretty much every tribal setting, the leader is the male who is the physically the strongest? How about the fact that he often takes that role from another?


Firstly, during the pre-history of human civilisation, women were seen as complete equals – it was women who invented weaving, and women who invented pottery – and they were protected by the males of the troupe… And the way you are describing a hierarchy in early human society is completely bogus – you are referring to monkeys, who squabble amongst each other over breeding rights… The early humans realised this was primitive – and set about diversifying the gene pool as much as possible…



It’s the media and the corporate giants who would have you believe that competing against one-another is the normal way to do things… School isn’t about learning, it’s about getting a higher mark on your test than your friend… Work isn’t about contributing to society; it’s about cheating your fellow man out of a promotion, so that you can have a little more money… The health-care system isn’t about making sure everyone can live their life comfortably, its about the rich getting richer, while the poor die because they couldn’t afford the medicine…



Yet our "competetive" system in America has given us the highest standard of living in the world, and made us the strongest nation ever in existance. What a failure capitalism is!

That's opposed to every socialist nation, which has struggled then died.


America has the highest standards of living???
- Lets see you walk into a ghetto somewhere in LA and say that to all the African American and Latino folk there…
your parents would never get to tuck you in at night ever again (
)
(America has the highest standards of living phhh, please
)

Cuba may of struggled – but its now better than ever – and even if it is (hypothetically) ‘dead’ – would someone please care to explain how this tiny third world country (with an evil dictator
) is able to provide EVERYONE with FREE (and universal) health care, FREE (and compolsory) education, turn out MORE doctors per capita than any other country in the world! – Take on scholarships from all around the world, heck, they even offered to turn 300 poor people from the US into doctors FOR FREE – But the US denied their American citizens to do so…

And its strange that now, all of a sudden, Venezuela is able to do the same things.

The people of Cuba and Venezuela have freedoms that most intelligent Americans crave…



Why are the black people poor, and why are the poor (forced into) committing crime? – Better yet, WHY IS THERE POOR PEOPLE AT ALL?



There are poor people in every society that has ever existed. You know why? Because there will always be people who screw up and fail, and they tend to reproduce.


And your solution would be some form of Nazi-style eugenics program based on being white, and belonging to the upper echelons of socio-economic status… You make me
- You still aren’t delving into the issue enough, shouldn’t whatever contribution they can make towards society be ‘exploited’ – Instead of throwing valuable lives in ghettos (that resemble the third-world), how about spreading the billions of dollars people like Bush Snr, Donald Trump, Bill Gates etc have (and are going to waste) around – and create some jobs for these people…

About the only thing keeping those people in ghettos, is because they are black – nothing else – and the only thing the government thinks these people are good for, is for joining the Army, to die for the so called ‘freedom’ (resources) right-wing idiots like you take for granted…



By the way if our economy is doing good then why do I see more people asking for money on the trains then I've ever seen in my entire life? Why is it that the moment the mariachi guys leave my train car a woman playing a kazoo comes in followed by a man with a violin followed by a woman singing with a guitar? Thats just the musically enclined we're not even counting the straight up beggars offering nothing in exchange but a sob story. Yeah the corporations are doing fine but the people are suffering.



Right. Suddenly everyone is going broke and homeless. And you've provided so much evidence to show it. Well, how's this. I've never seen so few beggars and homeless in all my life. I've never seen so many people owning homes in their lives, as they have set a record high.


Again, you missed the fxxxing point! – Why is there homeless people in the first place – you are an idiot of you cannot see that it’s the system that creates these people, not their own ignorance!!! – You obviously didn’t read the links I provided you with, so just in case here it is again … Read that and you might actually learn a thing or two…



Lets all ask ourselves WHY all those illegal imigrants are coming into America (and other first world countries) in the first place... Oh but wait, that questions to hard ( )... America is the reason (Mexico for example) is in ruins? - Could it be that the US has control over all of Mexicos valuable resources - and because of this, Mexico has very little income, thus they cannot develop the infrastructure (eg office buildings, mines etc) needed to change their situation... So instead of starving to death at the hands of US imperialism - they choose to take their chances in the rumoured to be 'land of freedom'...



Or maybe, just maybe, it's the fact that Mexico has a corrupt and incompetent government, and instead of improving the situation, the people flea to America.


A government the US government supports – and basically helped get to power… And people are trying to improve the situation (ever heard of the ELZN) – but it’s a shame that the Mexican government (with the help of the US) thwarts any attempts, and then the US ship ‘em over to places like Guantannamo where they never get to see outside of a cage for the rest of their lives…



Little do these people know, that the 'freedom' (see my avatar) the US spreads, is what has put them in this precarious situation to begin with... So don’t shoot the messenger... Ask yourself, why is the third world poor...



The thirdworld is poor because they've been unable to adapt. Nations have climbed out of poverty. America didn't start off rich. It took centuries to get that way.


America got rich because it killed millions of Native American Indians!!! – The same way they got rich off killing millions of Africans!!! – The only thing the third-world hasn’t ‘adapted’ to is the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people there are struggling just to get by, let-alone find our who is causing them to be this way… America alone produces enough food to feed the whole world – but do they? – no – they dumb thousands of tonnes of grain into the Ocean to keep profits up… You obviously don’t have a clear understanding of what imperialism is

Do some research people…


[edit on 31-5-2005 by ghostsoldier]

[edit on 31-5-2005 by ghostsoldier]




posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 12:14 AM
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Is the US more secure?...

Well let me anwser with a question...

Have we been attacked after 9/11?

Muslim extremists have always found a reason or another to blame the US, why? simple, Muslim extremists want the world to be dominated by Islam, either by sword or any other means. Right now the US is the main world power that is resisting these Muslim extremists with the help of coalition forces from other countries, who have helped a great deal.

The Muslim extremists main point is to take out the big fish first, that is the US.

ghostsoldier, you have got to be blind to believe that capitalism makes people poorer... The countries whose dictators' embrace your same ideals have made whole countries poor... and your idols, such as che were mass murderer bastards who were thinking only about themselves.

That's the truth you are embracing.


BTW doesn't it go against the board rules to have sigs that recruit people into other groups?....



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Speaking at Arlington National Cemetery amid public doubts about his stewardship of the war, Bush claimed the United States was more secure because of the offensives he tied to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

Yeah, and who would know better than Dubya?
Excuse me. I can't stop laughing.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 01:40 AM
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In any event, I think you would find that US imperialism spreads much wider than Europe – and in any case, the subject of this thread is “Bush says US is more secure” this thread has nothing to do with Europe, you are just trying to divert attention away from your own country… And again I will repeat my point you seem to keep missing – WHY DOES WHAT EUROPE DOES JUSTIFY WHAT AMERICA DOES !?!! – I will admit, European imperialism is a big problem, but the US is the focus of this thread!


And I'll repeat my point. All of you talking about America are hypocrites, because you refuse to talk about anyone but America. There isn't a single topic around dealing with the atrocities committed by Europeans, or Russians. Everything ends up about America around here.

America is the focus of every thread.


And you say that European imperialism acts out of greed – then what does American imperialism act out of? British or Australian? – Imperialism is imperialism no matter who is dealing the cards…


Hardly so. Let's take a look at the governments America has officially established. They are Germany, Japan, South Korea, Afghanistan, and now Iraq. All are at least free. Given time, they've all prospered economically. They develop strong militaries. Now take a look at the governments the French and other Europe nations set up in Africa and the Middle East. They still are in complete chaos decades on, and are still fighting wars over the borders the Europeans drew up.

If someone in this world is going to conquer me, I'd prefer America.


You don’t think that the Venezuelan people would band together to protect their (soon to be) Socialist revolution? – You don’t think Cuba would join the fight? – You don’t think you would have another Vietnam style radicalisation – basically all of America saying enough is enough… Because you see, regardless of the spin your government puts out, Chavez has been democratically elected 6 times, survived a US backed coup, and has gained an a approval rating of 70% over the entire Latin American continent…


You think it would matter? There is a massive difference between Vietnam, where the enemy can retreat behind an imaginary line we can't follow, and Venezuela. And here's where history comes into play. The people of Vietnam have a long history of guerilla warfare. They've repelled invasions from numerous empires. What they did still would have been impossible had America invaded the North.

Cuba? You know nothing at all. Cuba lacks the ability to deploy its troops anywhere outside of Cuba. Period. They certainly don't have the cash to support any long term deployment. There's a reason only America, even during the Cold War, had worldwide force projection capabilities.


Its no where near as easy as you are trying to make out – the only reason the US led coalition has ‘won’ in Iraq is because you destroyed their country 10 years ago… Think with your own brain for a change…


That's jsut dumb. We destroyed the Iraqi military at its peak ten years ago in the most lopsided war in the history of the human race. We destroyed Iraq's ground forces in a matter of hours. No nation can stand up to America's military strength in the open, and guerilla warfare only works when the American military is led by politicians.


You wish it was that easy !!! – If it was, you wouldn’t be copping so much retaliation from Iraq – and Saddam was a monster – Try tricking the world into thinking Chavez has got Nuclear Weapons…


If Iraq proved anything, it's that America doesn't need to convince the world of anything. Iraq, even after a decade of sanctions, still had more military strength then Venezuela.


I think that Iraq is most definitely in a state of chaos, the Iraqi people are wondering why the US is still there, they found no WMD’s, they arrested Saddam, they had elections – and the Iraqi people want Iraq for Iraqis… The resistance that is taking place in Iraq is resisting against something – if the Coalition Forces removed themselves from Iraq – there wouldn’t be anyone to resist against…


Most of those in the resistance are either the Sunnis, who had special treatment under Saddam, and want the old order back, or foreigners who just want to cause harm to America. They aren't fighting for a whole lot here. If this was just about America, they wouldn't target mostly Iraqi civillians.

Few of the attacks are actually against American forces.


You missed the point again! While ever Iraq is not 100% self sufficient – they will never be free… And that is not going to happen anytime soon, as long as foreign troops are present and as long as foreign monopolies have control over Iraq’s oil… This Talebani character is the newest puppet for US imperialism, he is allowing foreigners to rape his country!


Never been 100% self-sufficient? What's your view of Japan, Germany and South Korea? Are they American puppets? We built their governments, and we've kept a constant military presence since then.

As for the oil, what you're saying is nonsense. It isn't just being sold to American companies, and it's not a monopoly when multiple companies are buying it in the first place. Go look the word up. Iraqis are getting the money all the same.

And besides, you talk about nationalizing oil. You know what that's called? A MONOPOLY. It's one where the people usually get screwed over the worst, as well.


It’s a shame that the people, who actually ordered those men to commit those disgusting crimes, have yet to see the inside of a gaol (jail) cell. And again you are playing the blame game, “Saddam did worse, so what we do is by nature okay” – I’m not saying that what Saddam is right (in fact it was worse than what the US and UK have done) – BUT THAT DOESN’T JUSTIFY WHAT THE US DOES !!! – Again, 2 wrongs – do not – make a right!


You compared Saddam's torture to America's "torture," not me. Don't make a comparison between two things that aren't even close.

And once again, you can not PROVE that the American government ordered or condoned any torture. You need something like evidence to do that.

What we did can't even be called torture. I fail to see how it's even that inhumane. Most of the stuff done to these guys isn't harmful at all. We've been accused of draping Israeli flags on these guys, or they've complained our female guards have acted sexual around them. This is what you are calling torture?


As for Guantannamo Bay, how is having hundreds (if not thousands) of people locked up in prison cells for 23-hours a day, with no access to a lawyer, and not allowing them inside a courtroom for the ‘crimes’ they are in actuality being held for – How is that freedom or justice? – Not even mentioning the fact that the US actually having Guantannamo Bay is illegal…


There are about 500 people. They have access to lawyers, in spite of the fact that you don't have to do anything with enemy POW's until after the war's over. There is nothing illegal about our activity.


Once every four years you vote for a local representative
Once every four years you vote for a state senator
Once every four years you vote for a President


Do you even life in America? You obviously have no knowledge of our political system.


It’ll be too late then, you’re concept of when we should do something is ridiculous – Not to mention the US is already preluding the nation to a war in Iran, you can see the lies they are spreading… I seriously cant wait (in some ways) until the US does invade Iran – because hopefully then the US populous will say enough is enough… Your way is a cowards way out, and is merely facilitating ignorance…


Do you honestly think America can prepare to invade Iran in a week? If were planning something, we'd be shipping huge numbers of men and supplies to Iraq and Afghanistan and building them up on the borders. We can't hide that.

It is impossible for America to invade Iran anytime soon, and the world would know if we were thinking of it.


You put Saddam in place specifically because he was an enemy of Iran, then when he invaded Kuwait instead, you felt betrayed – THAT’S what caused the Gulf War… And as for the Contra, the US government was literally sponsoring terrorism – they funded the Contra’s and supported them in their plight against the justice being created by Sandinistas government – you sponsored an organisation that raped entire villages of women, that killed innocents – all just so a half-socialist government couldn’t be instated, and people could start taking control..


The Contras were terrorists, but at least they had the majority of their people on their side, as proven when they won elections, taking out another corrupt leftist dictatorship.

And America did not put Saddam into power, he took it in a coup.


Firstly, during the pre-history of human civilisation, women were seen as complete equals – it was women who invented weaving, and women who invented pottery – and they were protected by the males of the troupe… And the way you are describing a hierarchy in early human society is completely bogus – you are referring to monkeys, who squabble amongst each other over breeding rights… The early humans realised this was primitive – and set about diversifying the gene pool as much as possible…


It's so nice to know you such advanced knowledge of a group of people who didn't even have a writing system...

I guess as we kept evolving, we must have start becoming a lot more like those monkeys, since all of the things I described were typical of tribal societies.


America has the highest standards of living??? - Lets see you walk into a ghetto somewhere in LA and say that to all the African American and Latino folk there… your parents would never get to tuck you in at night ever again ( ) (America has the highest standards of living phhh, please )


America has the highest GDP per capita. Those poor blacks and latinos happen to be some of the biggest consumers in our nation. Black and latino males happen to buy more video games than anyone else. The poor in America have it a lot better then they would in other places in the world, and the poor only stay poor because of their own choices.

Many groups of people have climbed out of poverty in this nation. The Irish had nothing when they came here. They were looked down upon. They adapted and grew into our society.


Cuba may of struggled – but its now better than ever – and even if it is (hypothetically) ‘dead’ – would someone please care to explain how this tiny third world country (with an evil dictator ) is able to provide EVERYONE with FREE (and universal) health care, FREE (and compolsory) education, turn out MORE doctors per capita than any other country in the world! – Take on scholarships from all around the world, heck, they even offered to turn 300 poor people from the US into doctors FOR FREE – But the US denied their American citizens to do so…


None of that matters when you provide a lower quality of healthcare, and education. I know people who were doctors in Cuba who came here and had to become janitors. They simply are not up to Western standards.

And you know what those bloaded social budgets do? They prevent progress in society. Cuba will remain dirt poor because the people have no resources to invest.

If the world was full of socialist nations, you wouldn't have the computer you're typing on right now.


And your solution would be some form of Nazi-style eugenics program based on being white, and belonging to the upper echelons of socio-economic status… You make me - You still aren’t delving into the issue enough, shouldn’t whatever contribution they can make towards society be ‘exploited’ – Instead of throwing valuable lives in ghettos (that resemble the third-world), how about spreading the billions of dollars people like Bush Snr, Donald Trump, Bill Gates etc have (and are going to waste) around – and create some jobs for these people…


The government can not artificially create jobs for people. And by redistributing wealth, you take it out of the hands of those who know how to use it best. Bill Gates got to where he is because he was the most innovative. He reinvests in the economy, and uses his money to literally revolutionize how people live.

What exactly should the government do? Turn these people into useless doctors? Then you know what happens? The quality of our healthcare declines. It becomes less attractive for people to become doctors because theres no money to be made.


About the only thing keeping those people in ghettos, is because they are black – nothing else – and the only thing the government thinks these people are good for, is for joining the Army, to die for the so called ‘freedom’ (resources) right-wing idiots like you take for granted…


Only 10% of the casualties in Iraq were black. That's just proportional to their population percentage.

Also, other groups have climbed out of the same situations blacks have been in. They are in the situation their in because they do nothing to pull themselves out.

Capitalism is a system where people have to except the consequences of their choices, whether they are good or bad. People who make bad choices should not be rewarded.

Other minorities, like Asians, have done just fine adjusting to the white world of America.


Again, you missed the fxxxing point! – Why is there homeless people in the first place – you are an idiot of you cannot see that it’s the system that creates these people, not their own ignorance!!! – You obviously didn’t read the links I provided you with, so just in case here it is again … Read that and you might actually learn a thing or two…


Yea, we could all live in dirt shacks with no homeless at all! Wouldn't that be great? We could all suffer together so people who are usually just too lazy to work don't have to face the consequences of their actions!

The blacks have all the oppertunity they need. They get free education. They get a huge number of scholarships.

If you want to see how well socialism works, look at France. 10% unemployed. Shrinking economy. Growing debt. Taxes continue to be increased.

Now, why is it that this white, developed nation is crumbling so much if not socialism? Same with Germany and much of the rest of Europe. At the same time, look at the UK, or Japan. They have one of the strongest economies. Why? They happen to have American style economic systems, which means little government interference.


A government the US government supports – and basically helped get to power… And people are trying to improve the situation (ever heard of the ELZN) – but it’s a shame that the Mexican government (with the help of the US) thwarts any attempts, and then the US ship ‘em over to places like Guantannamo where they never get to see outside of a cage for the rest of their lives…


We did not put them into power, and the rest of what you said is just nonsense.


America got rich because it killed millions of Native American Indians!!! – The same way they got rich off killing millions of Africans!!! – The only thing the third-world hasn’t ‘adapted’ to is the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people there are struggling just to get by, let-alone find our who is causing them to be this way… America alone produces enough food to feed the whole world – but do they? – no – they dumb thousands of tonnes of grain into the Ocean to keep profits up… You obviously don’t have a clear understanding of what imperialism is…


America is the world's largest donor of food, specifically grain. We give more to Africa than anyone else.

Africa was in the same state its in now long before the white man came along. Sorry, but it's always been behind Asia and the West.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Is the US more secure?...

Well let me anwser with a question...

Have we been attacked after 9/11?


It was over eight years between the first world trade center bombing and 9/11 its only been four years since 9/11. Absence of attack is not indication of security. By that logic because I havent died yet means I've discovered the secret of immortality.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by boogyman]



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by boogyman

It was over eight years between the first world trade center bombing and 9/11 its only been four years since 9/11. Absence of attack is not indication of security. By that logic because I havent died yet means I've discovered the secret of immortality.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by boogyman]


There have been attempts at attacking the US, and European countries, such as France, Germany and Spain, by Islamic extremists, but we were able to stop all of this.

Al Qaeda was given a hard blow with this war, and they are scurrying everywhere trying to get terrorists from all over the world to engage coalition forces in Iraq.

There was an attack in the wtc in 1993...in 1993 president clinton was in office and we were not attacking Iraq, yet Islamic terrorists were still back then attacking us.

Are we safer now than if we wouldn't have taken the fight into their own homes? IMO, yes, we are.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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It's a false analogy - the happenings in Basara have zero influence on the Security of Bedford, NY ( within the evaporation radius, along with NYC, should the Indian Point Nuke facility be breeched).....in all ways except one: it secures sympathetic bodies in an uber recruiting drive that would have been unattainable otherwise.
Sept. 11, 2001 occurred because of and during the Bush Administration. Lack of a repeat monumental failure of insight, competency and preparedness, so far, does not prove that they are anywhere near on the job.
Bush says that we're more secure. It's a bold faced lie, except it as such & move on towards calling it out - not trying to bend the reality of the day to accomodate that ficticious story line. You beleive in fairy tales of a decimated 3rd world military power, which had a quarter million continuous bombing sorties flown over it since 1991, presented a clear & present danger to the US or it's interest in 2003, and that the US needed to act immediately? Go ahead, hopefully you're young enough to be drafted or at least have the ballz in your 'conviction' to enlist or join the guard. But understand this: we are in no way more secure, we're much less.
And, it's domestic terrorists as well who are ramping up....those shaved head white boys in the Heartland have more than a few axes to grind with Jack Booted Feds.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Sept. 11, 2001 occurred because of and during the Bush Administration. Lack of a repeat monumental failure of insight, competency and preparedness, so far, does not prove that they are anywhere near on the job.


Clinton was aware of the plan to use planes to attack the World Trade Center back in 1995. He took no action to prevent this. We were attacked several times throughout the 90's in a serious way. The USS Cole, anyone?

Several Middle Eastern governments literally offered to hand Bin Laden over to us, and Clinton refused to take him.

9/11 is just as much Clinton's fault as it was Bush's.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
Sept. 11, 2001 occurred because of and during the Bush Administration. Lack of a repeat monumental failure of insight, competency and preparedness, so far, does not prove that they are anywhere near on the job.


yeah it occured on Bush's watch but it should remember the plans of attack were way back during Clintion's watch wen i believe Al Qaeda was mad wen Clinton retaliated for the embassy bombings and the terrorists dont like being attacked so they thought they could teach America a lesson, it didnt help much but it help us more aware of Al Qaeda, thanks Osama
.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Clinton was aware of the plan to use planes to attack the World Trade Center back in 1995. He took no action to prevent this.



Do you have some proof of this accusation? I think you may be mistaken.

Clinton was aware of Alqueda and there terroristic intentions, however there is no proof that Clinton knew one single iota of detail involving 9-11. Just in case you didnt realize it at the time, Alqueda was fairly well known throughtout the world as a terrorist org. We American were just so placated with our security that we didnt bother to listen.

Now, back to those accusations you have made. I have read through this and you seem to like to throw around statments as fact with no proof. Your statement about Clinton knowing about 9-11 is just one good example. If you have some proof to corroborate this, then fine. I will from here on out swear that Bill knew such matters. However, I am pretty sure I wont have to embrace that line of thinking.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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From 1996 to 1998, I opened unofficial channels between Sudan and the Clinton administration. I met with officials in both countries, including Clinton, U.S. National Security Advisor Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger and Sudan's president and intelligence chief. President Omar Hassan Ahmed Bashir, who wanted terrorism sanctions against Sudan lifted, offered the arrest and extradition of Bin Laden and detailed intelligence data about the global networks constructed by Egypt's Islamic Jihad, Iran's Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas.

Among those in the networks were the two hijackers who piloted commercial airliners into the World Trade Center.


Source - www.infowars.com...


The article discussed Operation Bojinka, which came to the attention of U.S. authorities in 1995 when Abdul Hakim Murad, a terrorist, was captured in the Philippines. As reported by Maria Ressa in her September 18, 2001 article “U.S. Warned In 1995 Of Plot To Hijack Planes, Attack Buildings” on CNN’s website:


Source - www.frontpagemag.com...



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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All that and still nothing that show where Clinton had any knowledge of 9-11. Nope, still dont have to embrace that line of thinking yet.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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Then you're in denial, because I clearly proved that Clinton knew Al Qeada wanted to use planes as weapons to fly into the World Trade Center. That is 9/11.

It's a lot more then the information Bush was given, which was just a small warning that indicated Bin Laden wanted to attack somewhere in the United States with no specifics.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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I totally agree with this thread. The US is now safe. It went from attacked to attacker. So now are the people of the world who live in terror of being attacked by the US.



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 12:18 AM
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Bush and Clinton are pretty buddy buddy now, in case you haven't noticed.



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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And I'll repeat my point. All of you talking about America are hypocrites, because you refuse to talk about anyone but America. There isn't a single topic around dealing with the atrocities committed by Europeans, or Russians. Everything ends up about America around here.

America is the focus of every thread.


Well for starters there are no Europeans on this site (as it is largely American) claiming that their countries are the best thing that ever happened to the world. – I mean you don’t see people from France walking around wearing their France Flags everywhere and claiming that the best thing France ever did was when it killed thousands of people in Vietnam (before America took over that role)…

What I have been attempting to say is; that Americans are for more Patriotic about the atrocities their government commits. And if their was Europeans opening up threads everywhere saying how “A [European Leader] made the world more secure by killing innocent civilians…” – THEN, I would be replying to them the same way I am replying to you, my responses are reactionary…



And you say that European imperialism acts out of greed – then what does American imperialism act out of? British or Australian? – Imperialism is imperialism no matter who is dealing the cards…



Hardly so. Let's take a look at the governments America has officially established. They are Germany, Japan, South Korea, Afghanistan, and now Iraq. All are at least free. Given time, they've all prospered economically. They develop strong militaries. Now take a look at the governments the French and other Europe nations set up in Africa and the Middle East. They still are in complete chaos decades on, and are still fighting wars over the borders the Europeans drew up.

If someone in this world is going to conquer me, I'd prefer America.


Without getting into a debate about wether Afghanistan and Iraq are a ‘free people’, I will say; you have only mentioned a handful of the people America has desecrated in the name of ‘freedom’ (of markets)… You didn’t mention all the other Middle Eastern countries and you didn’t mention any of the Latin American countries. Imperialism is not just invading a country, it takes the form of Cultural Imperialism and more importantly Economic Imperialism – the US and others (Europe if it will make you happy) has done this throughout the third-world… An invasion doesn’t even need to take place…

I don’t think you even have a clear understanding of having ‘freedom’ – there are two different, yet closely related types of ‘freedom’ – there is political-freedom, and there is economic-freedom – in an advanced capitalist country, only the rich have true freedom, because they have the money to do what they want; run in elections, publish books, own TV stations, by companies etc etc. Those who are poor lack the funds to do any of those things – therefor, their ideas never get heard, their ideas never get put into action, because they don’t have money!

How can the poor get this kind of freedom (by becoming rich you say?) – how can a working class person get this kind of freedom. When they are so stuck in the system of having to work simply to pay for things like; house payments, food, car, kids, clothes, medical treatment, social lives etc etc… Why do you think the average person is 15,000 dollars in debt? – Because the system doesn’t allow them to get rich (on a whole).

Lets look at it in a simple equation, let us say that it costs 100 to become an owner of the ‘means of production’ (meaning you don’t need to work any more, people will sell their ‘labour power’ to you… So the money you make from selling your goods that your workers made… Then you keep some for you, and pay some of them, and invest the rest. ) Okay the equation.. Pretend you’re a worker, and you want to become a Capitalist – that is going to cost 100…

The worker needs to pay for things in the meantime
30 goes to – paying mortgage or rent, furniture etc
15 goes to – food
15 goes to – car payments, fuel etc
50 goes to – raising kids
5 goes to – clothing
10 goes to - education
10 goes to – doctor visits, insurance, medicine, etc
5 goes to – having a good time of life etc

So if you add 30, 15, 15, 50, 10, 5, 10, and 5 together that adds up to 140 – which isn’t enough to become a capitalist… What I am trying to say is; the regular person is too busy spending money just to live, that (s)he doesn’t have the money to re-invest it into something that is going to make them rich – the rich stay rich as long as the poor stay poor…

Now, going back to the original point of this topic; Imperialism – Imperialism is no longer just companies competing against one another (Capitalism) it is countries competing against one another (Imperialism), so what you have are about 8 Imperialist countries (The US being the biggest most powerful) and then another 200 countries that are poorer (comparatively, and on different scales)… So there are countries just struggling to survive, a perfect example of this is Africa, Africa was forced to take loans of money – to pay for its people – then they have to pay off that loan with interest… So that loan money starts to accumulate, and the African government has to pay it before it becomes too big, but they soon realised that they weren’t making enough money to pay for this debt – AS WELL AS feed and shelter its people… When you look at it, some of these 3rd World countries have paid their debt off, ten times over – but because of the interest they cant get it completely out of the system… The only people benefiting from all this is the Imperialist countries and their institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund… It’s the economical foes that pose the true threat – not the ones with the military might…



Cuba? You know nothing at all. Cuba lacks the ability to deploy its troops anywhere outside of Cuba. Period. They certainly don't have the cash to support any long term deployment. There's a reason only America, even during the Cold War, had worldwide force projection capabilities.


Perhaps you should pick up a history book some time…

Have you ever even heard of a country called Angola and/or Nambia? The South African imperialist Army attempted to conquer Angola from 1975 to 1990, and they would have lost that war were it not for the decisive role of 50,000 Cuban volunteer fighters who defeated South Africa’s imperialist aggression against Angola and Namibia between 1975 and 1990. Now, by my calculations that’s 15 years, 15 years that Cuba had men dying to defend the sovereignty and freedom of Angola and Nambia – and they beat the invasion… This sent shock waves around the continent… But you being an American would probably never hear about the good things Cuba does…

And what about the 10,000 doctors, 8000 educators and 2000 sports trainers, agricultural experts, military advisers and technicians that Cuba have sent to Venezuela, they have been there for years now, doing brilliant work to help the Venezuelan people pick themselves up out of the gutter Imperialism put them in…

Not to mention that Cuban doctors are also quietly saving lives in East Timor and healing the sick and wounded in tsunami-devastated Sri Lanka and many other 3rd world countries who need help…

But I think the important thing that you need to understand is; Cuba does not have Imperialist and greedy desires – they want peace and equality – but the thing you need to realise is that they will do all they can to protect that from the likes of Imperialism in all its forms…



You missed the point again! While ever Iraq is not 100% self sufficient – they will never be free… And that is not going to happen anytime soon, as long as foreign troops are present and as long as foreign monopolies have control over Iraq’s oil… This Talebani character is the newest puppet for US imperialism, he is allowing foreigners to rape his country!



As for the oil, what you're saying is nonsense. It isn't just being sold to American companies, and it's not a monopoly when multiple companies are buying it in the first place.

And besides, you talk about nationalizing oil. You know what that's called? A MONOPOLY. It's one where the people usually get screwed over the worst, as well.


Its being sold to multi-nationals (meaning; companies who have a certain power in all countries) and I think you would find that the majority of these companies are from the Western hemisphere. And each one of those multi-national countries are monopolies on to themelves… I agree with what you are saying that there is more than one company in control of that oil, BUT – they are all multi-billion dollar companies that are just after a little more… The main characteristic of a monopoly being; Taking more than you need, and for the benefit of someone else

And the question of nationalising resources is a simple idea to wrap your head around – something you haven’t been able to do for some reason… Instead of the money/resources going to privatised multi-billion dollar multi-national companies – the money/resources go to the government… And if you live in a country that has an un-corrupt government, which puts the people before the money, such as Venezuela or Cuba – you will find that those monies/resources are going to the people through things like these… And I don’t think the people of Venezuela feel as though they are getting screwed over, considering they are getting things that the corrupt (US Supported) government that was there before, never gave them. Free education (where as the majority of the population had never gone to school) Free health care (where as the majority never really had any access to these things before)… The same with the Cuban people, they are ten-times better off now, then when they were under the dictatorship of Batista (whom the US supported to the upmost)… So you see, nationalising resources, when done correctly, is the most logical thing to do – they put the money back into the people, not into the rich capitalists pockets – How can any sane and rational person say that putting money back into the community is a bad thing – because this is effectively, exactly what you are saying…



You compared Saddam's torture to America's "torture," not me. Don't make a comparison between two things that aren't even close.

And once again, you can not PROVE that the American government ordered or condoned any torture. You need something like evidence to do that.

What we did can't even be called torture. I fail to see how it's even that inhumane. Most of the stuff done to these guys isn't harmful at all. We've been accused of draping Israeli flags on these guys, or they've complained our female guards have acted sexual around them. This is what you are calling torture?


Just because there is no paper trail suggesting that it wasn’t ordered to happen – DOESN’T MEAN IT DIDN’T – That would be like you saying that the justice department isn’t racist the African Americans of America, I mean, please – how blind can you be to the injustices of the world!

So you would say that all the beating unconscious of Iraqi inmates was not torture, or did you forget about that too? – Perhaps you could take your finger out, and your eyes off FoxNews for a second to realise that these things happened to people just like you, they are all human, citizens of the earth – are you some kind of sociopath!!! … Also, would you enjoy being piled on top of 10 other men (if you are a man) or 10 other women (if you are a woman) – with armed men and women all laughing at you, while your face grows redder with embarrassment, their laughing grows bigger, none of them care about you, and when you attempt to get up and walk away from the situation you have a gun put to your head telling you to get back to where you wear – Cameras are flashing all around you. Then you hear someone crying but you don’t know who, and then you realise that some of those people could be your brother, or dad, or sister, or cousin, or best friend or son or daughter, and wish they would just kill you or release you all ready… Then those who are released have to live with the fact that all the pictures of the event are now in/on papers, television shows and internet websites all around the world… Put yourself in the situation, how would you feel? – How is this not torture, you are being ridiculously insensitive and show a complete lack of understanding of the context of the situation…



Once every four years you vote for a local representative
Once every four years you vote for a state senator
Once every four years you vote for a President



Do you even life in America? You obviously have no knowledge of our political system.


I was para-phrasing – the point being, once these people are elected – you have little to no control over what goes on behind closed doors.

No I don’t live in America – but you being an American, perhaps you could explain it to me – seeing as how you are so much better rehearsed in the ins and outs of your country… Because you obviously have a say in what goes on behind all the closed doors of the White-House – lets hear how really is then…



[…] the US is already preluding the nation to a war in Iran, you can see the lies they are spreading… I seriously cant wait (in some ways) until the US does invade Iran – because hopefully then the US populous will say enough is enough… Your way is a cowards way out, and is merely facilitating ignorance…



Do you honestly think America can prepare to invade Iran in a week? If were planning something, we'd be shipping huge numbers of men and supplies to Iraq and Afghanistan and building them up on the borders. We can't hide that.

It is impossible for America to invade Iran anytime soon, and the world would know if we were thinking of it.


Did I say or a week, or did I say 6-months??? – In case this was just a mistake (and not an attempt to idiosise my character, gloss over and desensitise what I said). Once again they will be in Iran within the next 6-months – and you can see it in your media, you can see it in your presidents speeches it is every where… And there are at least 3 long term US military bases being built in Iraq (pretty strange for a military planning to leave) and there is always new lots of troops going over there on their tour of duties… And why do you think the US is trying so hard to get the Iraqi army taking over the role of ‘peace keeping’… And why do you think that thousands of men are leaving places like South Korea? – Keep your eye out, and you might learn something… And the world does know that you are thinking about it, it seems to me that it’s the American populous who doesn’t know…



You put Saddam in place specifically because he was an enemy of Iran, […] And as for the Contra, the US government was literally sponsoring terrorism – they funded the Contra’s and supported them in their plight against the justice being created by Sandinistas government – you sponsored an organisation that raped entire villages of women, that killed innocents – all just so a half-socialist government couldn’t be instated, and people could start taking control…



The Contras were terrorists, but at least they had the majority of their people on their side, as proven when they won elections, taking out another corrupt leftist dictatorship.

And America did not put Saddam into power, he took it in a coup.

Saddam came into power by a coup – that the US supported – they didn’t even condemn the illegal use of force to take power, because they knew all about it…

And as for Latin America: You know NOTHING at all about what happened there… The Sandinistas had the support of about 60-70% of the population. Then the Contras scared the people senseless by raping women, bombing churches, killing priests, killing teenagers etc etc to the point where the people just wanted the violence to end. Noam Chomsky said something to the effect of The more you make people fear aliens, terrorists, communists, crime etc – the more control you have over them…” So then when the elections came around The Contras won by the slimmest of majorities, it was basically 50:50 – but the Sandinistas didn’t really have an election campaign or mass propaganda or control over the media, or millions of dollars (the definition of corrupt) BUT, what you are forgetting is that the US put 10-million dollars into the Contras election campaign, it kinda says something doesn’t it…




America has the highest standards of living??? - Lets see you walk into a ghetto somewhere in LA and say that to all the African American and Latino folk there… your parents would never get to tuck you in at night ever again ( ) (America has the highest standards of living phhh, please )



America has the highest GDP per capita. Those poor blacks and latinos happen to be some of the biggest consumers in our nation. Black and latino males happen to buy more video games than anyone else. The poor in America have it a lot better then they would in other places in the world, and the poor only stay poor because of their own choices.


SiNcE wHeN DoEs GdP MeAn AnYtHinG aT aLL!!! – YoU kNoW NoThInG aT aLL aBoUt YouR oWn EcOnOmY !!! Especially considering that the majority of that of money goes to the military – go learn something about what GDP even means (The total market value of all the goods and services produced within the borders of a nation during a specified period, aka; gross domestic product)... Now just because America is the richest country, does that mean that all that money is well spent? Of course not, all you have to do is walk into one of the ghettos in America to realise that they are of 3rd World standards… You could compare Americas spending to a parent that buys drugs to use, before they feed their children… Think about what you are saying…



Cuba may of struggled – but its now better than ever. And even if it is (hypothetically) ‘dead’ – would someone please care to explain how this tiny third world country (with an evil dictator) is able to provide EVERYONE with FREE (and universal) health care, FREE (and compulsory) education, turn out MORE doctors per capita than any other country in the world! – Take on scholarships from all around the world, heck, they even offered to turn 300 poor people from the US into doctors FOR FREE – But the US denied their American citizens to do so…



None of that matters when you provide a lower quality of healthcare, and education. I know people who were doctors in Cuba who came here and had to become janitors. They simply are not up to Western standards.


Cubas medical facilities and practices are on par with much of the first-world, and are amply capable of working anywhere in the world (Why do you think so many people go there to study?) In any case; a lower quality of health care (comparative to the US) is a ridiculous fact to base your argument on – isn’t having a lower quality of health-care better than having none at all? – Which was basically what was there before, before the Cuban Revolution only the rich people of Cuba could afford health care, while denying the 70% of the people who were too poor to afford it. Now though, they have it for free and for everyone. And for your example of the Janitor – WhY Do YoU tHiNk ThAt !?!! – Do you think he could have been a doctor, or do you think that the government doesn’t want him setting an example of what is possible?



And your solution would be some form of Nazi-style eugenics program based on being white, and belonging to the upper echelons of socio-economic status… You make me sick! You still aren’t delving into the issue enough, shouldn’t whatever contribution they can make towards society be ‘exploited’… Instead of throwing valuable lives in ghettos (that resemble the third-world), how about spreading the billions of dollars people like Bush Snr, Donald Trump, Bill Gates etc have (and are going to waste) around – and create some jobs for these people…



What exactly should the government do? Turn these people into useless doctors? Then you know what happens? The quality of our healthcare declines. It becomes less attractive for people to become doctors because theres no money to be made.


Wait, wait wait… Let me get this straight… You some how can conclude that by having more doctors the quality of health-care declines… Let me ask; HoW ThE Fxxx CaN YoU cOmE Up WiTh A StUpiD CoNcLuSioN sUcH aS tHaT !?!?!! And since when was becoming a doctor about money, isn’t it about saving peoples lives? I suppose its just one of those idiosyncrasies related to Capitalism…

As for creating jobs, well lets see… Here are some suggestions: Get rid of every single last ghetto in the country and replace them with nice comfortable houses, with some local schools, with their own hospitals, with their own consumer facilities… You don’t think America could do with more schools, look at the situation in American education today?



About the only thing keeping those people in ghettos, is because they are black – nothing else – and the only thing the government thinks these people are good for, is for joining the Army, to die for the so called ‘freedom’ (resources) right-wing idiots like you take for granted…



Other groups have climbed out of the same situations blacks have been in. They are in the situation their in because they do nothing to pull themselves out.

Other minorities, like Asians, have done just fine adjusting to the white world of America.


*shakes head at the stupidity of this argument*

Other Caucasian immigrant minorities (like Europeans) are easily integrated into America because they are white – and thus carry less stereotypes with them. African Americans are still seen by huge amounts of America as still being nothing but “Them god-damned lazy n-words…” – The African and Latin American people cannot get ahead because they are unofficially not provided the same opportunities at the rest of ‘white’ America. Teachers teach them differently because of the stereotype that is in place, employers will not employ them the same because of the stereotypes that are in place, police arrest them more (and serve them less) because of the stereotypes in place etc etc… I will bet you all the money in the world that an ambulance will get to a rich white neighbour hood faster than it will into an African American ghetto… The majority of minorities are given the sxxx-house jobs that nobody else wants to do… That is why the Asians immigrants have done so well, because they are used to being paid jack-all in places like China and North Korea… Why do you think there are so many illegal sweat-shops in America exploiting basically ‘slave-labour’ from these people…



Again, you missed the fxxxing point! – Why is there homeless people in the first place – you are an idiot of you cannot see that it’s the system that creates these people, not their own ignorance!!! – You obviously didn’t read the links I provided you with, so just in case here it is again … Read that and you might actually learn a thing or two…



Yea, we could all live in dirt shacks with no homeless at all! Wouldn't that be great? We could all suffer together so people who are usually just too lazy to work don't have to face the consequences of their actions!

The blacks have all the oppertunity they need. […]

If you want to see how well socialism works, look at France. 10% unemployed. Shrinking economy. Growing debt. Taxes continue to be increased.

Now, why is it that this white, developed nation is crumbling so much if not socialism? Same with Germany and much of the rest of Europe. At the same time, look at the UK, or Japan. They have one of the strongest economies. Why? They happen to have American style economic systems, which means little government interference.


Where in the world did you get the idea that France and Germany is Socialist in any way, shape or form!?!! – Saying France is Socialist is like saying Africa is an advanced Capitalist nation… Perhaps you need to pick up a dictionary – I have provided more than adequate links explaining what Socialism actually is, perhaps its time to read some of them.

And just to back track; - No I don’t think we should all live in dirt-shacks, there is no reason why people cannot all live in comfortable housing – and yes I do think that would be great. And I think you would find that most ‘lazy’ people are more correctly content with their lives – they lack the motivation to become greedy or over-extended – either that or they feel that aren’t contributing to society in an affective way, they feel their life is being wasted by the system… But under a proper (socialist) education these people would have a different motivation, if living didn’t mean having money to survive – the whole contribution people make towards society would be viewed in a different way… Value would revert back to its original meaning (which was not monetary in any way) and people would work out of love for one another, knowing that what they are doing isn’t just for them, its for everyone… The thing you need to realise is Capitalism alienates people where as Socialism is all about bringing people together



America got rich because it killed millions of Native American Indians!!! – The same way they got rich off killing millions of Africans!!! – The only thing the third-world hasn’t ‘adapted’ to is the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people there are struggling just to get by, let-alone find our who is causing them to be this way… America alone produces enough food to feed the whole world – but do they? – no – they dump thousands of tonnes of grain into the Ocean to keep profits up… You obviously don’t have a clear understanding of what imperialism is…



America is the world's largest donor of food, specifically grain. We give more to Africa than anyone else.

Africa was in the same state its in now long before the white man came along. Sorry, but it's always been behind Asia and the West.


Africa was NOT always behind Asia and the West – where do you think you came from? – What you are is a person who is advocating cultural imperialism, you are no better than Captain Cook who killed thousands of Australian Aborigines. Africa was contempt with their way of life, they lived in accordance and harmony with nature and its laws – who are you to say that they are better off smoking cigarettes and eating McDonalds and praying in Catholic Churches…

You are taking one step forward, and two steps backward… You take more food (more correctly, the ability to make and wealth from other countries than you do give it to them. Ever heard the saying; “You can give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a thousand years…”. The third-world is forced onto the nipple of the imperialist bosom, the 1st-World will not allow these countries to become self-sufficient and free.

You are just another person who is completely ignorant to other cultures – and you think that just because Americans love America so should the rest of the world… These people of the world have their own cultural identity and you are trying to remove that… This is the nature of Cultural Imperialism.



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Well for starters there are no Europeans on this site (as it is largely American) claiming that their countries are the best thing that ever happened to the world.


There aren't too many Americans doing this, either.


I mean you don’t see people from France walking around wearing their France Flags everywhere and claiming that the best thing France ever did was when it killed thousands of people in Vietnam (before America took over that role)…


Yet France was the last European power to give up their colonies, and had to be forced out.


And if their was Europeans opening up threads everywhere saying how “A [European Leader] made the world more secure by killing innocent civilians…” – THEN, I would be replying to them the same way I am replying to you, my responses are reactionary…


Yet you find it perfectly OK when a guy like Chavez steals land from people and redistributes it to other people...


You didn’t mention all the other Middle Eastern countries


What Middle Eastern country are we responsible for besides the ones we invaded? We aren't holding them back, they do that to themselves.


you didn’t mention any of the Latin American countries


Yes, we are to blame for the fact that Mexico has been unable to create a successful Republic during the past 200 years...


in an advanced capitalist country, only the rich have true freedom, because they have the money to do what they want; run in elections, publish books, own TV stations, by companies etc etc. Those who are poor lack the funds to do any of those things – therefor, their ideas never get heard, their ideas never get put into action, because they don’t have money!


EVERYONE has a chance to succeed in this country. I don't know how screwed up a person has to be for their ideas of morality to be that if I can't have something, no one can have it...


How can the poor get this kind of freedom (by becoming rich you say?) – how can a working class person get this kind of freedom. When they are so stuck in the system of having to work simply to pay for things like; house payments, food, car, kids, clothes, medical treatment, social lives etc etc… Why do you think the average person is 15,000 dollars in debt? – Because the system doesn’t allow them to get rich (on a whole).


No system has ever allowed ever person to get rich. The system you proposes just makes everyone poor, and achieves nothing.

The only way you can possibly make it fair is to let people achieve on their own merits. It's hardly impossible for people to make it. They are provided free education. There are numerous scholarship oppertunities. People make it out of the ghetto, making your entire statement baseless.


So there are countries just struggling to survive, a perfect example of this is Africa, Africa was forced to take loans of money – to pay for its people – then they have to pay off that loan with interest… So that loan money starts to accumulate, and the African government has to pay it before it becomes too big, but they soon realised that they weren’t making enough money to pay for this debt – AS WELL AS feed and shelter its people… When you look at it, some of these 3rd World countries have paid their debt off, ten times over – but because of the interest they cant get it completely out of the system… The only people benefiting from all this is the Imperialist countries and their institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund… It’s the economical foes that pose the true threat – not the ones with the military might…


The NERVE! I mean, how dare we ask people to pay back the loans we've given to them! We should just hand out money to these people without asking any questions, or expecting anything in return!

I mean, let's ignore the fact that just about every nation is in debt to begin with, and that does not stop them from forming stable and sane governments...


Have you ever even heard of a country called Angola and/or Nambia? The South African imperialist Army attempted to conquer Angola from 1975 to 1990, and they would have lost that war were it not for the decisive role of 50,000 Cuban volunteer fighters who defeated South Africa’s imperialist aggression against Angola and Namibia between 1975 and 1990. Now, by my calculations that’s 15 years, 15 years that Cuba had men dying to defend the sovereignty and freedom of Angola and Nambia – and they beat the invasion… This sent shock waves around the continent… But you being an American would probably never hear about the good things Cuba does…


Your facts, as usual, are wrong. Your numbers are inflated. You ignore the fact that the Soviets were the ones who actually funded the whole thing.


And what about the 10,000 doctors, 8000 educators and 2000 sports trainers, agricultural experts, military advisers and technicians that Cuba have sent to Venezuela, they have been there for years now, doing brilliant work to help the Venezuelan people pick themselves up out of the gutter Imperialism put them in…


Yea, they're doing real "brilliant work" while their nations continue to degrade...


But I think the important thing that you need to understand is; Cuba does not have Imperialist and greedy desires – they want peace and equality – but the thing you need to realise is that they will do all they can to protect that from the likes of Imperialism in all its forms…


Yea, Castro is a real swell guy. That's why thousands of Cubans risk their lives to come here to America. That's why he has to crush any opposition to his rule. It's also the reason he made himself dictator.


Its being sold to multi-nationals (meaning; companies who have a certain power in all countries) and I think you would find that the majority of these companies are from the Western hemisphere. And each one of those multi-national countries are monopolies on to themelves… I agree with what you are saying that there is more than one company in control of that oil, BUT – they are all multi-billion dollar companies that are just after a little more… The main characteristic of a monopoly being; Taking more than you need, and for the benefit of someone else


The only characteristic of a monopoly is that they have exclusive control over something.

And you fail to realize that the governments in these nations are doing the same thing. They just do it far more inefficiently, and things end up far more corrupt then they normally would.


Instead of the money/resources going to privatised multi-billion dollar multi-national companies – the money/resources go to the government… And if you live in a country that has an un-corrupt government, which puts the people before the money, such as Venezuela or Cuba – you will find that those monies/resources are going to the people through things like these


Um, Cuba isn't corrupt, huh? What kind of fantasy world do you live in? If the Cuban government is so great, why are the people so poor? Why has the nation been unable to progress at all while under this great socialist system?


Just because there is no paper trail suggesting that it wasn’t ordered to happen – DOESN’T MEAN IT DIDN’T – That would be like you saying that the justice department isn’t racist the African Americans of America, I mean, please – how blind can you be to the injustices of the world!


So basically, you can make any claim without evidence, and it becomes true?


So you would say that all the beating unconscious of Iraqi inmates was not torture, or did you forget about that too? – Perhaps you could take your finger out, and your eyes off FoxNews for a second to realise that these things happened to people just like you, they are all human, citizens of the earth – are you some kind of sociopath!!!


Right, I'm the ignorant one...Tell me again how America is behind the genocide in the Sudan, please. Right, you left that topic after I proved you were wrong...


Also, would you enjoy being piled on top of 10 other men (if you are a man) or 10 other women (if you are a woman) – with armed men and women all laughing at you, while your face grows redder with embarrassment, their laughing grows bigger, none of them care about you, and when you attempt to get up and walk away from the situation you have a gun put to your head telling you to get back to where you wear – Cameras are flashing all around you. Then you hear someone crying but you don’t know who, and then you realise that some of those people could be your brother, or dad, or sister, or cousin, or best friend or son or daughter, and wish they would just kill you or release you all ready… Then those who are released have to live with the fact that all the pictures of the event are now in/on papers, television shows and internet websites all around the world… Put yourself in the situation, how would you feel? – How is this not torture, you are being ridiculously insensitive and show a complete lack of understanding of the context of the situation


Insensitive? We're fighting a war with people who are willing to behead anyone who they oppose, and blow up their own people...Yet somehow we're the great evil because a few of these scumbags have their feelings hurt?

People like you are totally detached from reality, and have your ideals completely out of whack.

The guys who were "tortured" were in fact that in the worst part of Abu Ghraib. They were the the worst of the worst in that prison.


I was para-phrasing – the point being, once these people are elected – you have little to no control over what goes on behind closed doors.


And if the majority of the people dont' like these decisions, they can get rid of any of them.


And there are at least 3 long term US military bases being built in Iraq (pretty strange for a military planning to leave) and there is always new lots of troops going over there on their tour of duties


We're building longterm bases so we can forever hold a presence in the region. We have military bases in over a hundred countries in the world.

New troops are constantly being sent over because we don't like to leave our soldiers on the front lines for too long. The overall troop numbers in Iraq have only been dropping.


And why do you think the US is trying so hard to get the Iraqi army taking over the role of ‘peace keeping’…


So we don't have 150,000 American troops in Iraq forever?


And why do you think that thousands of men are leaving places like South Korea? – Keep your eye out, and you might learn something… And the world does know that you are thinking about it, it seems to me that it’s the American populous who doesn’t know…


We've been pulling troops out of South Korea because they aren't needed there, and there is a strong group in Korea who don't want us there. These changes are permanent.

If you knew what Bush was actually doing to the military, your view and the rest of the world's might matter. His goal has been to scale down troop numbers in foreign nations since he took office, with the goal of being able to deploy large numbers of troops far more rapidly to trouble spots. It's all part of America's future FCS program, not some future invasion plan of Iran.

It's far too costly and pointless to keep huge numbers of American soldiers on constant deployment, and makes it far more difficult to move troops when you have to take them from so many different locations.


Saddam came into power by a coup – that the US supported – they didn’t even condemn the illegal use of force to take power, because they knew all about it…


Right. It was all America! And I suppose you have some proof to back this claim up, of course...


The Sandinistas had the support of about 60-70% of the population. Then the Contras scared the people senseless by raping women, bombing churches, killing priests, killing teenagers etc etc to the point where the people just wanted the violence to end. Noam Chomsky said something to the effect of The more you make people fear aliens, terrorists, communists, crime etc – the more control you have over them…” So then when the elections came around The Contras won by the slimmest of majorities, it was basically 50:50 – but the Sandinistas didn’t really have an election campaign or mass propaganda or control over the media, or millions of dollars (the definition of corrupt) BUT, what you are forgetting is that the US put 10-million dollars into the Contras election campaign, it kinda says something doesn’t it…


The Contras in fact organized into a pecaeful political party before any elections. They weren't bombing people when this happened.

And the Sardinistas controlled the country. They controlled their media. They ruled pretty much everything.


SiNcE wHeN DoEs GdP MeAn AnYtHinG aT aLL!!! – YoU kNoW NoThInG aT aLL aBoUt YouR oWn EcOnOmY !!! Especially considering that the majority of that of money goes to the military – go learn something about what GDP even means (The total market value of all the goods and services produced within the borders of a nation during a specified period, aka; gross domestic product)... Now just because America is the richest country, does that mean that all that money is well spent? Of course not, all you have to do is walk into one of the ghettos in America to realise that they are of 3rd World standards… You could compare Americas spending to a parent that buys drugs to use, before they feed their children… Think about what you are saying…


Less then 3% of the American GDP goes to the military, buddy. That's less then most nations.

And have you ever actually been to any ghetto in America? That's right...You don't even live in America to begin with. It's so nice to know that you'd have a better understanding of what's going on then me...I mean, I'm sure you've seen countless Hollywood movies that show how people in the ghetto live!


Cubas medical facilities and practices are on par with much of the first-world, and are amply capable of working anywhere in the world (Why do you think so many people go there to study?)


Really? I was never aware so many people were flocking into Cuba to go to college...

And who exactly in the first world is Cuba on par with? They have over 4 times the infant mortality rate that America does.


In any case; a lower quality of health care (comparative to the US) is a ridiculous fact to base your argument on – isn’t having a lower quality of health-care better than having none at all?


Wait a second, aren't you the one who always says two wrongs don't make a right? Everyone in America gets better healthcare then in Cuba, and most of it for free. You know, they get that at those free clinics America has set up all over. Why can't Cuba do the same thing, especially considering that Cuba has that superior socialist system of yours...


Do you think he could have been a doctor, or do you think that the government doesn’t want him setting an example of what is possible?


Setting an example of what? It's the same from all third world nations. Their education standards are far below those of the West.


Wait, wait wait… Let me get this straight… You some how can conclude that by having more doctors the quality of health-care declines… Let me ask; HoW ThE Fxxx CaN YoU cOmE Up WiTh A StUpiD CoNcLuSioN sUcH aS tHaT !?!?!! And since when was becoming a doctor about money, isn’t it about saving peoples lives? I suppose its just one of those idiosyncrasies related to Capitalism…


If you could comprehend, you would see that I said the more doctors you have, the lower quality of those doctors. It's pretty simple. When you pump out a hundred doctors, but only have 100 to pay for them, that's 1 dollar per doctor. Have 50 doctors, you have 2 dollars per doctor.


As for creating jobs, well lets see… Here are some suggestions: Get rid of every single last ghetto in the country and replace them with nice comfortable houses, with some local schools, with their own hospitals, with their own consumer facilities… You don’t think America could do with more schools, look at the situation in American education today?


Well, you apparently aren't aware of the numerous programs that the government has tried to improve the Ghetto, like building free new homes for people better then what many who had to work to get them were able to afford. Once again, though, you would probably have more knowledge on this then me, seeing as how you don't even live in America...

This stuff all fails. You know why? There's nothing to keep it going. They just become blackholes that suck up more money from the government because they can't substain that level of living. This causes all taxes to increase. This means other people have less money. This means they spend less, and can reinvest less into the economy. People start loosing their jobs. There's less to be taxed, yet the government now has more to try and prop up.

You can see this cycle in France, with their wonderfully high unemployment rate of 10%.


Other Caucasian immigrant minorities (like Europeans) are easily integrated into America because they are white


Maybe you missed where I talked about Asians who have done just fine here. And it's nice to know you believe there's some mass conspiracy to screw over every single minority in this country for some unknown reason...Because you know, it's great for the American government to have more poor people to put on welfare programs, who contribute almost nothing back to the society...


Where in the world did you get the idea that France and Germany is Socialist in any way, shape or form!?!! – Saying France is Socialist is like saying Africa is an advanced Capitalist nation… Perhaps you need to pick up a dictionary – I have provided more than adequate links explaining what Socialism actually is, perhaps its time to read some of them.


Maybe it was there massive social programs that are in fact driving them deeper into debt, increasing unemployment and shrinking the economy...


And just to back track; - No I don’t think we should all live in dirt-shacks, there is no reason why people cannot all live in comfortable housing – and yes I do think that would be great.


Yet no socialist nation has managed to provide much more then shacks to its people...


Africa was NOT always behind Asia and the West – where do you think you came from?


Right. My bad. I guess the problem is just that Africa has advanced almost none during the thousand years since then...


You take more food (more correctly, the ability to make and wealth from other countries than you do give it to them. Ever heard the saying; “You can give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a thousand years…”. The third-world is forced onto the nipple of the imperialist bosom, the 1st-World will not allow these countries to become self-sufficient and free.


Wait, the charity we give is now evil and corrupt, too? What about the massive amounts of money we give to these governments to reform their governments (this is charity, not loans) that just ends up geting misused?

I guess they have no responsibility here. It's all us evil white Americans...


You are just another person who is completely ignorant to other cultures – and you think that just because Americans love America so should the rest of the world… These people of the world have their own cultural identity and you are trying to remove that… This is the nature of Cultural Imperialism.


Wait, what culture are you talking about? How are we ruining any culture? We produce music and movies that foreigners prefer over their own culture, and that makes us evil and imperialistic?

Or perhaps you're just talking about how America tries to improve the living standards of other nations by giving them food, and charity. I mean, we're destroying their wonderful culture of being ruled by tyranical governments and living in huts!







 
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