Are we a Fascist State Yet?

If you're waiting for cattle cars, you're too late.
But as seen in the Katrina & Avian Flu forums, the camps are built, the guards are posted and the abolishment of Posse Comitatus is already in comittee.

The most noticeable indication of a fascist alignment by a party or government is the separation and persecution of a particular class of people, (usually the bourgeois denying the proletariat) based loosely upon beliefs or some superficial endemic qualities.

In the past five years, we've broken record highs in the following areas, with "poor" being the focus strata effected:

- Growth of people living below the poverty line
- Infant mortality
- Double digit unemployment
- Suspension of the Davis-Bacon Act
- WH backed Medicaid dismantling legislation
- Massive income disparity
- Massive increases in the number of people incarcerated...we're topping Russia per 1000!

Fascism has many forms and adheres to no constants. No government/political party is ever any one specific definable constant structure.

Exactly. People like Centurion are looking for a pre-chewed application of it; as if there will be a herald on the Capitol steps reading a proclamantion noting the switch of systems.
I, nor the cited author in BH's list, is making a hard switch proclamation. But take the time to realize our gun barrel diplomacy, it's ever quickening domestic application, the ratio of the Pentagon's spend to Social programs - Education especially, the massive Corp. profits & dismantling of all regulatory oversight on them + taxes dissappearing from them, and the Theocratic control of the ruling party....all these things....all these things.

Remember the fear they were trying so hard to drill into our heads before invading Iraq?

Remember Condi, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush Jr mentioning the

'mushroom cloud' threat from sadam if we 'didn't go to iraq'??

And their tones were as dramatic as those in a shakesperian play.

Bush's war cabinet cherry-picked cia intelligence to correspond with their wanting so desperately to take sadam out.

an excerpt from the downing street memo:
the intelligence and facts are to being fixed around the policy.

And then bush coming out and saying if you are not with us you are with the terrorists. and any american (he didnt say this but the media banged it into our heads) that doesn't go along with it isn't a real patriot.

I clearly remember all the patriotic fury that was going around at that time.
were people waving that flag to show everyone that they loved america or that they felt obligated to wave that flag to show support for bush?

The media did a good job of meshing bush and patriotism in one imo.


i'm sorry, is this not a form of fascism?

[edit on 1-11-2005 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Heretic:

All of your examples were also used by the U.S.S.R. - a communist dictatorship and probably the worst mass-murdering regime in the history of the world. In item #3, just change the labels and take away religion in item # 8. Reverse #9 and #10. Otherwise what's the difference?

So, what has your post proved?

It doesn't matter what your economic leanings are, fascism is fascism and always right wing on the libertarian scale. It doesn't matter if you ban relgion or shove it down people's throats via the state, that's right wing authoritarianism.

Originally posted by Bout Time
Why do I care if someone in cyberspace gets put on the defensive?
I DO CARE that my country is a Fascist state, that the same POWERFUL FAMILY that bankrolled the last POWERFUL FASCIST STATE is now running MY COUNTRY.
If Exxon, Wall St and Pharma are all making record profits quarter after quarter and laws are further abolished or diminished that govern them while millions more fall below the poverty line, while military "intervention" has the US in every port globally.....if those factors don't fit into the fascist framework, you're suspending logical review of the facts.

i remember sombody on dis site made a thread about America already becoming a socialist state...u are just like dat guy. is America a Facist state? same thing here. im sure u care but its just dat u have to prove we are a true Facist state instead of asking yerself are we a Fascist state. u should have said we are Fascist state instead of wondering about it and lookin at the connections dat is related to Fascism.

Originally posted by RANT

It doesn't matter what your economic leanings are, fascism is fascism and always right wing on the libertarian scale. It doesn't matter if you ban relgion or shove it down people's throats via the state, that's right wing authoritarianism.

Fascism doesnt always relate to the right wing. it could also be to the left or none at all. but as u say its in the Libertarian scale.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by cjf
Why not ‘headed away’?

We may have been close in the past, but when I look over the past 30 years (and especially the past 5 years), I see an increase in these characteristics and I believe technology and governmental control is at a stage where this time, it could actually work.

IN RECENT TIMES:

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Sorry, didn't realize the soviets had the benefit of a statute of limitations for all their heinous crimes against humanity.

Truth is that it's simple BS to claim that what others (who you might be more sympathetic towards???) did doesn't count just because it was "in the past".

Originally posted by Bout Time
If you're waiting for cattle cars, you're too late.

Examples (documented from a reliable source) please. Otherwise, what you are claiming is also just simple BS.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Sorry, didn't realize the soviets had the benefit of a statute of limitations for all their heinous crimes against humanity.

I totally don't understand why you're bringing the Soviets into this? We're talking about the USA. Today. NOW. I'm talking about how the USA is appearing to become a fascist society. Are you just trying to change the subject? Distract people by talking about USSR of the past?

Truth is that it's simple BS to claim that what others (who you might be more sympathetic towards???) did doesn't count just because it was "in the past".

WTF are you talking about? Sympathetic? This has no bearing whatsoever on what I've said. So, have a good time. I'll wake you when it's over.

Definitely has nothing to do with wings.
Bush is "right" according to many of y'all here, and Hillary is left, but what Bill set up and George implemented, I fully expect to see Hillary run with at a mad pace after 2008.

Definitely has nothing to do with wings.
Bush is "right" according to many of y'all here, and Hillary is left, but what Bill set up and George implemented, I fully expect to see Hillary run with at a mad pace after 2008.

Again, for those who trip every time they run after the ice cream truck, both sides are controlled by them, and you ALL should know why "they" are by now.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Bout Time
If you're waiting for cattle cars, you're too late.

Examples (documented from a reliable source) please. Otherwise, what you are claiming is also just simple BS.

Did you miss the Katrina Forum, for starters? The thread of Valhall's picked up by the big boys? The one WHERE SHE VISITED A CAMP!? Or others self same EXPERIENCE?
Miss the threads on how folks in neigboring states ensured, via gun point, that NOLA refugees made it to the camps?
You miss what Herr Busch is trying to do with the military for the "flu" epidemic? Miss my thread on why CSX big dog was given his post & whay the Carlyle Group slurped up RAIL STOCKS like crazy?
Blind partisanship is no excuse for being unaware, Cent.
Also, Authoritarian trumps "wings" - two paths to the same point.

One could also say that the most sure sign of tendency toward fascism is the overwhelming denial to accept that this may be the case, and fear and hatred of those that criticize the status quo.
Sound familiar?

Bout Time,

We've been living in a police state since September 12, 2001. When your house can be searched without even your being told, that's a police state. When cameras watch our public spaces, that's a police state. When people can be held indefinitely without any charges being brought , that's a police state.

My wife grew up under Soviet-style communism, and today is a math professor at a major US university. She tells me that the main differences between what she's seeing today and what she saw as a young woman are cosmetic.

It strikes me that the two Bush presidencies were bookmarks around the only significant period of peace since WWII. No Cold War, no Hot War, just peace and prosperity.

The fact that the Cold War ended under Bush Sr and as soon as another Bush was elected, we are now engaged in another "Forever War" which has no winnable goal or even strategic plan gives me the chills. It's understood that war makes a people easier to govern, and a free nation would have been just too hard for someone with the intellectual and moral horsepower of a George W. Bush. Thus, we are involved in another "Forever War" with no end in sight. Using fear, secrecy, dirty tricks, torture and threats, George W. Bush has brought our nation into the new millenium as a police state.

Those of you who support this administration: I hope you're proud. But why do you hate America so much?

Benevolent Heretic,

It's obvious why the experience of Soviet-style fascism is important to this discussion. Interesting that yesterday we find out that Bush and Co. are using old Soviet secret prisons to torture prisoners. Are they all terrorists in these prisons? None of them have been tried, or even charged with crimes. Doesn't this sound just a little bit like Stalin to you?

After the fall of the USSR, the United States could have led the world into a century of peace and prosperity. Terrorists could have been fought with the effective weapons of law enforcements. The number of terrorist attacks have doubled since last year. Do you think the war in Iraq is making us safer? Well, at least 2035 brave young Americans were NOT made safer, sent into a useless, unwinnablel battle in a desert without sufficient equipment or numbers.

There are a lot of lessons from the USSR that the US should heed today, not the least of which is how quickly a superpower can dissolve when it loses it's way. And under the current leadership, our US government has lost it's way. It's become a corrupt, senseless dictatorship where lies and fear are the tools of statecraft. For doing this to our proud country, George Bush should burn in Hell.

I too have regular interaction with friends from all over the world who grew up under various authoritarian regimes - from the Middle East, to Eastern Europe to Asia.
All of these people lament the lack of focus by everyday Americans on not only what we have, but what we've had eroded or out right lost under this"War time President".

Although there are some worrying trends in the US (and it has to be said Britain as well), neither are 'fascist' states.

However, it should not be forgotten that a modern European country went from democratic state to autocratic rule after Hitler came to power.

What is even more worrying than an overtly totalitarian state is one that hides its totalitarianism under a veneer of democracy.

However, there are very strong checks and balances in place in both the UK and in the US to prevent another Hitler. Moreover, there is still the right to free speech - a vital component of any 'free' country. Once this goes (and not I did not 'if' this goes) everything will be completely different.

Originally posted by kedfr
However, there are very strong checks and balances in place in both the UK and in the US to prevent another Hitler. Moreover, there is still the right to free speech - a vital component of any 'free' country. Once this goes (and not I did not 'if' this goes) everything will be completely different.

What about the dnc and rnc free speech zones for protester's where they made 7/8 ft cages topped off with barbed wife?

What's that all about? Was this an experiments to see how we would react? I'd like to know the point of that. As I recall that had a major affect on college campuses across this country when speakers came to the colleges, protester's were told to go the designated 'free speech' zones created by administration.

Was that a first step, was it to test teh waters... I've always been curious about the reasoning behind that stunt.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Here's another relevant article hinting how der führer can indeed be in the details. It's not my intention to over-quote, but the article is 5 pages long with many interesting details very crucial to this topic, especially the last page(pg 5) on "link analysis", retention of unconnected citizens gambling profiles, sharing of their travel & consumer records, and other abuses.

...an exponentially growing practice of domestic surveillance under the USA Patriot Act, which marked its fourth anniversary on Oct. 26. "National security letters," created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, originated as narrow exceptions in consumer privacy law, enabling the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. The Patriot Act, and Bush administration guidelines for its use, transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies.

The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms. The letters -- one of which can be used to sweep up the records of many people -- are extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans.

Issued by FBI field supervisors, national security letters do not need the imprimatur of a prosecutor, grand jury or judge. They receive no review after the fact by the Justice Department or Congress. The executive branch maintains only statistics, which are incomplete and confined to classified reports. The Bush administration defeated legislation and a lawsuit to require a public accounting, and has offered no example in which the use of a national security letter helped disrupt a terrorist plot.

Senior FBI officials acknowledged in interviews that the proliferation of national security letters results primarily from the bureau's new authority to collect intimate facts about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing.

A national security letter cannot be used to authorize eavesdropping or to read the contents of e-mail. But it does permit investigators to trace revealing paths through the private affairs of a modern digital citizen. The records it yields describe where a person makes and spends money, with whom he lives and lived before, how much he gambles, what he buys online, what he pawns and borrows, where he travels, how he invests, what he searches for and reads on the Web, and who telephones or e-mails him at home and at work.

The House and Senate have voted to make noncompliance with a national security letter a criminal offense. The House would also impose a prison term for breach of secrecy.

"The beef with the NSLs is that they don't have even a pretense of judicial or impartial scrutiny," said former representative Robert L. Barr Jr. (Ga.), who finds himself allied with the American Civil Liberties Union after a career as prosecutor, CIA analyst and conservative GOP stalwart. "There's no checks and balances whatever on them. It is simply some bureaucrat's decision that they want information, and they can basically just go and get it."

As the Justice Department prepared congressional testimony this year, FBI headquarters searched for examples that would show how expanded surveillance powers made a difference. Michael Mason, who runs the Washington field office and has the rank of assistant FBI director, found no ready answer.

"I'd love to have a made-for-Hollywood story, but I don't have one," Mason said. "I am not even sure such an example exists."

Barr, the former congressman, said that "the abuse is in the power itself."
"As a conservative," he said, "I really resent an administration that calls itself conservative taking the position that the burden is on the citizen to show the government has abused power, and otherwise shut up and comply."

bold added


www.washingtonpost.com...
www.washingtonpost.com...
Related:
FBI to get veto power over PC software
FBI To Monitor Mail of US Citizens

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Ben Franklin

I am all for being vigilant in these uncertain times - but a citizen's vigilance certainly needs to be focused in ALL directions, not just towards potential tyrants from afar, but also from within.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

IN RECENT TIMES:

Only since 9/11 have I noticed current nationalism becoming so strong.
-[snip]1
Only since 9/11 has FEAR been drilled into our heads every day!

And to the points in between...

I am beginning to wonder what people paid attention to prior to Bush and/or 9/11. The US and many nations have a history of ‘more’ oppressive times than these ‘recent times’. This I state not in defense of Bush; but rather in defense of the US political state.

In the US for a start begin with the ‘Red Scare’ or the ‘Viet Nam’ era and work your way back to the ‘Tweed Ring’. All of which happened feasibly during a single lifetime.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Recently, corporations have more power, more money and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening daily.

This argument is not new nor is the concept premise ‘recent’. This argument has been used against capitalism for centuries, as well as the similar comparisons.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Only in the Bush Administration have professors been arrested for speaking their minds about political issues. Free speech is being attacked.

Free speech has been attacked many times before, as one example: how about going to jail just for being a suspected ‘communist sympathizer’? This didn’t happen under Bush.

Also people (not just professors), ministers, elected officials et al. have been subject to assassinations, attempts at murder, had careers ruined or just disappeared in the past for speaking their ‘minds’ under many administrations in the US and world wide.

We are not children, though. And do not need to be ‘cared for’ in such a controlled manner. In fact, we have certain unalienable rights to our freedoms and liberties.

I stated, "By strict definition ‘the parenting of children is fascist’", not the people of the US are children….

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You may attack the source all you like, that just means you’re uncomfortable with the truth contained in it. If you would like to argue against Fascism in the US today, counter the points instead of disputing the source.

I will attack the source….the author has no creditability! The ‘list’ is made-up, plagiarized, written to fit an alarmist agenda and simply plain bunk. You may want to believe his points does not make them either true or correct.

The overall complexity of 'problems' can not be so easily 'pidgeon holed'. Also, the author of the 'points' stated the 'list' does not apply to the US.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
By the way, I didn’t first see this list on ATS. I saw it elsewhere before I joined ATS

It’s all over the place, agreed, yet no one questions the validity. Is this not dangerous?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
…. is that some people get very irritable when confronted with something that contains an uncomfortable truth.

Speculation, innuendo, un-factual claims, narrow sight and a ‘blind eye to history’ when used in purporting a point makes me ‘uncomfortable’ and ‘irritable’, not the ‘other way around’.

The US is not a ‘fascist state’.

The overused term ‘Fascism’ cast too wide a brush and is not necessarily ‘evil’ in every aspect. Political parties and governments are never any ‘one type’; they will have examples of many different types of structures.

A recent example: The Bider-Mienhoff group gave the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party of Germany the ‘Nazi’ tag. and incorporated elements of fascism into their party platform, but this by no means proves the Nazis as strictly fascist. The two are independent of each other.

One of the highlighted points to this statement (From my previous post):

The most noticeable indication of a fascist alignment by a party or government is the separation and persecution of a particular class of people, (usually the bourgeois denying the proletariat) based loosely upon beliefs or some superficial endemic qualities.



.

Of course we are a fascist state. Everytime I see someone driving a 10 mpg SUV, with an American flag flying, and with bumperstickers saying "United We Stand" and "These Colors Don't Run", I just want to scream. Instead, I make sure to pull in front of them so they can read my bumper sticker which says --

George W. Bush = War Criminal
Impeach Him Now!

Seriously, those people driving those 10 mpg SUV are the root cause of 9/11 and the Iraq War. Figure it out. There is a direct line of causation.

All the flag waving and patriotic song singing by these chest-thumping, hypernationalistic warmongers just makes me sick.

By the way, hypernationalism and hypermilitarism are characteristics of fascism. Mussolini, who knew a thing or two about fascism, defined fascism as the merging of corporate and state power. Bush and Cheney are fascists, or corporatists, if you prefer a more polite word. Bush and Cheney think the country should be run for the benefit of large corporations. With Bush and Cheney in power, the large corporations are running the country by controlling Congress with their lobbyists and controlling the governmental process through their inside political connections.

Of course, it helps that Bush and Cheney are bought and paid for errand boys for the large oil companies.

Bush claims the authority to declare any U.S. citizen an enemy combatant, then imprison him indefinitely with no charges filed and no right to see an attorney. I would really like to hear an explanation from a Bush apologist why this in itself does not constitute fascism.