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Catholic Myths/Misconceptions...

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posted on May, 24 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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FlyersFan you said ,
/quote//
this has Catholic teachings and readings about what
the early church fathers said about the papacy -
includes infallibility -
www.catholic.com...

Up until 1054 before the Schism....there was no Papacy!
There was no one supreme leader of all the other ruling Bishops.
This arose and became part of Roman Catholicism teaching!

Now the name Pope as I understand (correct me if i'm wrong..means Father in Latin and nothing more)
The title ''Infallibility of the Pope'' is something which the West invented and not part of early Christian teachings!
in 1054, the Pope of Rome broke away from the other four Apostolic Patriarchates (which include Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem), by tampering with the Original Creed of the Church, and considering himself to be infallible.

quote//
The schism
CONFLICT BETWEEN THE ROMAN POPE and the East mounted - especially in the West's dealings with the Patriarch of Constantinople.
It was even asserted that the Pope had the authority to decide who should be the bishop of Constantinople - something that violated historical precedent and that no Orthodox bishop could endure.
The net result of the this assertion was that the Eastern Church, and in fact the entire Christian Church, was seen by the West to be under the domination of the Pope.

www.orthodoxphotos.com...

IX helen




posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by helen670
www.catholic.com...
Up until 1054 before the Schism....there was no Papacy!

Yes there was. Here is a list -
www.newadvent.org...
Also, all the early church documents show that all eyes looked
to Rome for leadership and legalities.


in 1054, the Pope of Rome broke away from the other four Apostolic Patriarchates (which include Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem), by tampering with the Original Creed of the Church, and considering himself to be infallible.


If you wish to believe that, you are welcome to. However, historical
documents show otherwise. Look at the Catholic Answers web site.

The Creed of the Church is the big area that separates the Greek
Orthodox from Roman Catholic. I look forward to the day when this
can be reconciled and the two can come together in understanding and
fraternal worship.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I don't believe anyone else can be a co-redeemer. For a person
to be a redeemer they had to meet certain requirements.


Don't forget ... in latin the co-redeemer just means 'with'. That's all.
A lot is lost in the translation and the assumption of what is ment.

You help bring people to redemption. You don't do the redeeming,
that's just for Christ. But you are 'with' the redeemer in so much as
you bring people to Christ. There are no human requirements for you
to do this. We are all sinners. And yet we can all pray for each other
and give good example in order to bring people to Christ.

So.... you are with Christ in His mission. Co = with.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
That's what the priest said, "If you are protestant you will go to
hell because you are not catholic". So if He's wrong about that
what else could he be wrong about?


So he's a priest who is poorly educated in his faith. Or he's a priest
who is 'over the top'. He's human. He makes mistakes. Peter and
Paul had a major fight over things and it's in the bible. The apostles
were wrong when they left Christ to Himself on the Mt of Olives and
at the foot of the cross (except John was there). Peter was wrong
when he kept losing his temper. What else are they wrong about?
Should we throw away the N.T. because they made errors?


if you have to follow sacraments to enter heaven
it's works and not by faith in Christ alone.


The Catholic church doesn't say that you HAVE to follow the sacraments
to enter heaven. It says that it is easier to enter heaven because extra
grace comes from the sacraments. We all need grace. Grace comes from
prayer and is sent by God. Note Christ in prayer in the garden. God
sent helping Grace (and angels) to help Him in His time of need.
King David went to God's annointed to confess his sin of killing a man
to gain that man's wife. He went to God ... but he also went to God's
annointed. He was humble and did this to show God that he was
serious. Was he forgiven without going? Yes. Did he have to go? No.
But he did.

I THINK Baptism may be different. I THINK that the church requires
baptism by water, blood, or desire to enter heaven. I'll have to
look that up. Desire is the 'catch all'. If you WANT to be baptised
but can't for whatever reason, then that desire is all you require
to stand before God and say 'I wanted to be, but it was physically
impossible' ... and God would of course honor that.

I'll look up Baptism.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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So then you agree that PJP2 was wrong about saying muslims and jews goto heaven? (curious now)

-----

About Co-Redeemer

No one helps Christ with that. We are USED by the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is purely of God.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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FlyersFan.....
In regards to ''first among equal'' It was in Rome and the Eastern Orthodox do not dispute this ....but the infallibility of the Pope and later on the changes it has made concerning many new ideas.....here are only but a few that since caused the schism......which actually started at the end of the eighth century and finally began the great schism of 1054.....

quote// the Court of Charles the Great, Charlemagne.
It began with the revival of pagan Roman knowledge, of the Judeo-Babylonian legacy of Rome. In the sin of pride, Charlemagne wanted to set up a new Roman Empire in the West.
All Western rulers have since tried to do the same, but all their Empires, like Charlemagne's, have fallen, because they lacked God's blessing in their pride. To renew the Roman Empire Charlemagne had first to reject the Christian Roman Empire, Romanity, whose capital was in New Rome, the City of the first Christian Roman Emperor, Constantinople.

www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk...

Also read....
www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk...

Quote//the first council in the Church’s history is described in Acts 15. Attended by the Apostles,
it met at Jerusalem to decide how far Gentile converts should be subject to the Law of Moses.
The Apostles, when they finally reached their decision,
spoke in terms which in other circumstances might appear presumptuous: "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us" (Acts 15:28).

www.fatheralexander.org...
Also the day at Pentacost is when the Church began....
quote/"Suddenly there came from heaven a sound like the rushing of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
And there appeared to them tongues like flames of fire,
divided among them and resting on each one.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:2-4).
So the history of the Christian Church begins,
with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles at Jerusalem during the feast of Pentecost,
www.fatheralexander.org...

FlyersFan...I too hope that one day the Church will unite......But knowing man and power to rule the earthly world........one can Hope in God and pray for things to come ..''be it for a short while'' as it says in Revelation....
helen...



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
So then you agree that PJP2 was wrong about saying muslims and jews goto heaven? (curious now)

I have no idea if Jews and/or Muslims go to heaven. PJPII saying that
people who don't believe in Christ will go to heaven is NOT what the
church teaches. Either he was wrong... or he knew something that
we don't know and we haven't read his reasoning. Either way, it
was just his opinion and NOT church doctrine. This does not enter
into papal infalibility at all. Can you now see the difference between
Opinion and doctrine? Ex-cathreda makes the difference. THAT is
when infalibility comes in ... not when someone speaks their opinion.


No one helps Christ with that. Salvation is purely of God.

Sure. Salvation is purely of God. Christ commanded that we
bring His Word to all nations. If we don't, they won't know
Christ and thus won't be able to accept Him. So Salvation
came from God ... but we are still 'with' Christ when we do
the work He commanded and when We bring His word to
the nations. We aren't 'saving' anyone, Christ is, but we are
with Him in His work.



[edit on 5/24/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by helen670
Also the day at Pentacost is when the Church began....
So the history of the Christian Church begins,
with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles
at Jerusalem during the feast of Pentecost,


You betchya'. No dispute there. The Roman Catholic
church believes this completely. Pentecost is the birthday
of the Church. The Catholic Church believes that the
priesthood was established BEFORE Pentecost - at the
Last Supper. First came the priesthood, then the church.
I'm not sure where your church believes the priesthood
was established.

I'm not going to argue with ya' Helen ... about the popes
and all. I have my information. You have yours. I read
yours. I'm sure you read mine. We each believe what we
believe. You are a good and gentle soul. I don't want to
disrupt your peace nitpicking. The 'biggies' we agree on
I think.

We are going to the Greek Orthodox festival in town next
week. It will be our first time. When we were in Florida
last year we stopped in a Greek Orthodox church and
had a tour and looked around. There are some things
about the Greek church that we think they do better and
more reverent than the Roman Catholic church. But the
Roman Catholic church comes closer to what I believe
to be true (at this point) so we are sticking with it. I
do admire the reverence in the Greek Orthodox mass.
(and ya'll have GREAT food at your festivals! mmmmm)



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
So then you agree that PJP2 was wrong about saying muslims and jews goto heaven? (curious now)


If I am understanding the official RCC teachings on this, they teach that any man could go to heaven under certain (extraordinary) circumstances. However, they would not go to heaven as a direct result of the teachings of their religion.



No one helps Christ with that. We are USED by the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is purely of God.


One never loses his freedom to choose. Perhaps my disagreement is a matter of definitions of the words used; but, I would say that if one does not freely choose to do a thing, they should question the nature of the spirit which is using them.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
If I am understanding the official RCC teachings on this, they teach that any man could go to heaven under certain (extraordinary) circumstances. However, they would not go to heaven as a direct result of the teachings of their religion.


Sorry Raphael but I couldn't follow this to be able to comment on.
Perhaps I don't need to comment .... Dunno. But I'm not sure what
you mean here.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

It says that it is easier to enter heaven because extra
grace comes from the sacraments. We all need grace. Grace comes from
prayer and is sent by God.

King David went to God's annointed to confess his sin of killing a man
to gain that man's wife. He went to God ... but he also went to God's
annointed. He was humble and did this to show God that he was
serious. Was he forgiven without going? Yes. Did he have to go? No.
But he did.

I THINK Baptism may be different. I THINK that the church requires
baptism by water, blood, or desire to enter heaven.
I'll look up Baptism.




The easier to enter heaven stuff doesn't make sense unless you throw in purgatory(which I don't believe). It is still works if some things make it easier.

Could you expand on the grace meaning. I hear that thrown around alot by Catholicism but need a better definition according to catholic teaching?

King David was confronted by God through Nathan. David didn't go to God, God went to him. David up until that point was not sorry for what he had done, and didn't think it was wrong.

What do you mean baptism by blood?

So if someone would not be baptised nor desire to be, but did accept Christ's completed work as Savior, where would they go at death?

Thanks



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 07:35 PM
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So how does one know how to read the Bible?
Dbrandt/We need the fathers of the church to explain things to us....the same thing Jesus Christ did when He selected the Apostles as His chosen to begin the church........
It's easy enough for someone that can read,
to pick up their bible and read it....but for those that understand that reading and what they think they may know the Bible is telling them, is surely different to how they understand it...or how they are to interpret it's meaning....
Having the Sacred Texts interpreted by the Fathers of the church is a good thing....In the early church many of the fathers that came together were of ''one mind'' and came together for this reason being to be of one mind.

Complications arose because some thought that they knew better and tried to bring new teachings in the church/against the teachings of the early fathers ....eg 'gnostic' teachings and other ideas that did creep in the early church, but was seen for what it was and corrected!
......today the same thing is happening with people assuming that they know how to read and intepret the Bible on their own....and changing the truth to some ideas based on their OWN ideas of how one is to read the Bible....
To dismiss the teachings of the Church and make up 'own' ideas of how to read and understand the Bible is misleading ones own soul.......
That's why so many explanations of various kinds are pouring forth in the world....because many people today not knowing what they are reading are using their ''own minds'' and not cosistent with the early church....which was of ''one mind''.

quote/
Christ Himself likened Church unity to the organic unity of a tree with its branches (cf. Rom. 11:17,24).
What exactly does this mean?
Tree with branches?

Quote///
The Apostle Paul spoke in great detail concerning the organic unity of the Church.
He also compared the Church to a tree,
but more often, the Apostle Paul refers to the Church as a "body" - soma. Referring to the Church as a "body" immediately implies its unity, for two bodies cannot be organically joined to one another.
This term also indicates the special character of the unification of the members who enter into the composition of the Church.
The image of the "body" in application to the Church is beautifully revealed by the Apostle Paul.
All who enter in the Church are members separately, but together comprise one body in Christ (cf. Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:20).
The body is one,
but it has many members and all are members of one body; although they be many, they compose one body.
The body is not composed of one member, but of many.
f the leg says, "I do not belong to the body because I am not an arm," does it then in actual fact not belong to the body?
And if the ear will say, "I do not belong to the body because I am not an eye," does it then not belong to the body?

God arranged each of the members of the body as it was pleasing to Him (cf. 1 Cor. 12:12; 12:16-18) just as we have many members in one body, not all members have the same function (cf. Rom. 12:4).
The eye cannot say to the arm, "you are not necessary to me," nor can the head say such a thing to the legs. God proportioned the body of mutually interdependent parts, but all members are equally responsive to one another. Thus, if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one of the members becomes great, all the members rejoice with it (1 Cor. 12:21, 24-26, 27; cf. Rom. 12:6, 9).

As I previously had posted " The Church or the New Testament?
by Fr. James Bernstein
link...
www.belowtopsecret.com...

and understanding that when St Paul says that we should hold onto tradition
Quote////The Apostle Paul exhorts us, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
This above passage tells us that we are to hold onto to what the Fathers of the church tells us .......whether it be by word or by what is spoken of in tradition......to go against this and use our ''OWN '' thinking as knowing much more then the Apostles is to err...thinking ourselves to be wiser ...

quote/“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” 2 Thessalonians 3:5-7

quote///In summary, rather than go off in tangents with our own ideas and concepts of God, the Apostles exhort us:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:14-16



Flyers Fan.....yeh the greeks are all big on food.....too much enjoyment is no good!
Although I'm not a 'social type' gatherer in crowds, I do enjoy the sweets ....greek biscuits and anything sweet.
take care,

I.X
helen....



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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You have voted Croat56 for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Thank you for starting this thread, Croat56. To all of you who have contributed to this thread a big "Thanks" to you also.

I have long wanted to see a discussion of this high caliber. Only good can come from a discussion where we can explain our beliefs and listen to the doubts of others.

Some of our differences seem to be only interpretations of words. "Works" for instance. I believe that "works" means following the way Jesus taught us. Helping others who cannot help themselves is one example. Do not both Protestants and Catholics do this?

What do non-Catholics mean when you say "works". I'm not trying to be confrontational, I would just like to know because of my previous statement in the above paragraph.

Mahree



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 06:03 AM
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quote: No one helps Christ with that. We are USED by the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is purely of God.


One never loses his freedom to choose. Perhaps my disagreement is a matter of definitions of the words used; but, I would say that if one does not freely choose to do a thing, they should question the nature of the spirit which is using them.





We are used in the manner of the children shouting hosana...in the manner the stones would have been used if they had silenced the children.


If I understand now...then the following line is truth.

Ralph, Flyers Fan, you are hereby declared Co-Redeemers with Christ.

This is ok?



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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Jake I understand your confusion. Let's look at the definition of co as a prefix.

co-
pref.
1.Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coeducation.

a. Partner or associate in an activity: coauthor; cofounder.
b. Subordinate or assistant: copilot.
2. To the same extent or degree: coextensive.
3. Complement of an angle: cotangent.

I see you using co to mean in partnership as equal to: on the same level with Christ.
I think the others are using co as in partnership less than: below Christ but still working with Him.

Does that help clarify?



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
unless you throw in purgatory(which I don't believe).


Purgatory makes sense to me. Actually I think the 'ghosts' people
see are those 'purgatory' souls. That's MY thought, not the
Church's. (I'm MOSTLY Catholic ...)

Some scripture that has been interpreted by some to refer to
Purgatory.

Apoc 21:27 There shall not enter into it anything defiled.

Mich 7:8 Rejoice not, thou my enemy, over me, because I am fallen.
I shall arise. When I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light. I will
bear the wrath of the Lord, because I have sinned against him; until
he judge my cause and execute judgment for me: he will bring me
forth into the light, I shall behold his justice.

Mal 3:3 He shall sit refining and cleansing the silver.

Zach 9:11 Thou by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy
prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Phil 2:10 In the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, of those that are
in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Ecclus 7:37 Restrain not grace from the dead.

Luke 12:47 That servant who knew the will of his Lord, and hath not
prepared, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many
stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall
be beaten with few stripes.

Mat 5:25 Make an agreement with thy adversary quickly, whilst thou
art in the way with him; lest, perhaps, the adversary deliver thee to the
judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into
prison. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence, till thou
pay the last farthing.

Mat 12:32 I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall render an account for it in the Day of Judgment. He that
shall speak against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither
in this world, nor in the world to come
(SO .. there is a world to come that sins will be forgiven? )

1 Pet 3:18 Christ died once for our sins, the Just for the unjust;
that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the Spirit. In which also coming he preached to those
spirits who were in prison.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above
all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Prov 17:3 As Silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace; so the
Lord trieth the heart.

1 Cor 15:29 What shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the
dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptised for them?

2 Mac 12:42-46 The most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep
themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what
had happened, because of the sins of htose that were slain. And
making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to
Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking
well and religiously concerning the resurrection. (For if he had not
hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have
seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) And because he
considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great
grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.




[edit on 5/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf
I think the others are using co as in partnership less than:
below Christ but still working with Him.

Good darkelf. The LATIN that the term is written in means
WITH. Christ is the redeemer. Mary is 'with' Him.
The translation of the meaning and spirit of the word
doesn't do well from latin to American English.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Could you expand on the grace meaning.

Oh man. If I were to post everything in the Catechism
and scripture readings on grace, on it I'd be typing all day.
Ya' really gotta' get a catechism. Check with your library.
There is just too much grace reference in scripture to type
it all here. The mods would have a cow if I did.

Grace - from the Catholic Catechism (the numbers are section numbers)
Habitual Grace. Actual Grace. Sacramental Grace. Charisms.
Graces of State. Etc...

1996 - Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is
FAVOR, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond
to His call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of
the divine nature and of eternal life.

1997 - Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into
the intimacy of Trinitarian life; by Baptism the Christian participates in
the grace of Christ, the Head of the Body. As an 'adopted son' he
can henceforth call God "father," in union with the only Son. He
receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and
who forms the Church.

1998 - This vocation to eternal life is SUPERNATURAL. It depends
entirely on God's gratuitous infitiative, for He alone can reveal
and give Himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect
and will, as that of ever other creature.

1999 - The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us
of his own life, infused by the Holy SPirit into our soul to heal it of
sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or defying grace received
in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification.

- Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old
has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God,
who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

2000 - Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural
disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to
act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and
act inkeeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which
refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion
or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 - The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a
work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our
collaboration in justificaation through faith, and in sanctification
through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun
'since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began
by working so that we might will it'.

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has
created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom,
the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely
into communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves
the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness
that only he can satisfy.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies
and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit
grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate
in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ,
the Church. There are SACRAMENTAL GRACES, gifts proper to the
different sacraments. There are furthermore SPECIAL GRACES, also
called CHARISMS after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning,
'favor', 'gratuitous gift', 'benefit. Whatever their character, sometimes
it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues
for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity
which builds up the Church.

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of
state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the
Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

- Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use
them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving;
he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortion;
he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who
does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

IN BRIEF -

2021 - Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation
of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of
Trinitarian life.

2022 - The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares,
and elecits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest
yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and
perfects freedom.

2023 - Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes
to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to
sanctify it.

2024 - Sanctifying grace makes us 'pleasing to God.' Charisms, special
graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are
intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through
many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which
is permanent in us.






[edit on 5/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 08:31 AM
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Actual and Habitual Grace in scripture -

Sufficient grace to all - 2 Tim 1:9, Apoc 3:20, Rom 8:26 Rom 8:14,
Psalm 58:11, Psalm 83:12, John 1:16, Prov 3:34, Jas 4:8, Phil 2:13,
1 Cor 4:7, John 6:44, Acts 9:6, Rom 10:20, Ps 57:5, Zach 1:3,
Is 30:18, Is 1:19, John 14:23, Job 25:3, Prov 3:26, Eccl 18:8-11,
John 1:9, 1 Tim 4:10, Acts 14:15, Rom 1:20, 1 Tim 2:4-6, Is 49:14,
Ez 33:10, Mat 11:28, 2 Pet 3:9, Rom2:4, Tob 3:21, Heb 3:12,
Is 31:6, Ps 147:20, Mat 11:21, Mat 11:25, Mat 13:11, Rom 9:18,
Is 55:1, Prov 12:2

Necessity of Grace - 1 Cor 12:3, 2 Cor 3:5, Mat 16:17, Mat 11:27,
Eph 2:8, John 6:29, John 6:66, Acts 11:18, Rom 2:4, 1 John 4:7,
Rom 5:5, Gal 5:22, Ps 49:8, Lam 5:21, Jer 31:18, John 6:44, Phil 2:13,
3 King 8:46, Prov 24:16, Eccles 7:21, Mat 18:21, Ecclus 5:2, Rom 7:19,
1 John 1:8, Jas 3:2, Rom 7:23, Ps 93:16-18, Ps 126:1, Psalm 26:9,
Cant 8:5, Jer 10:23, Mat 26:41, Mat 6:9, John 17:11, 15, Luke 10:31,
2 Cor 4:7

There are also many scriptures for Cooperating Grace, Grace of
final perseverence, God the efficient cause of Grace, Christ the
Meritorious cause of Grace, Acts of faith hope and charity being the
predisposing cause of sanctifying grace, grace not equal in all,
effects of grace, God calling us to grow in grace.

But my hands are tired of typing all this. So I'll only post those if
someone asks for them.

[edit on 5/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
What do you mean baptism by blood?


Catechism section 1258 - The Church has always held the firm
conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith
without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for
and with Christ. This is Baptism of blood, like the 'desire for Baptism'
brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

*'Baptism by desire' - Those who wish to be baptised, or don't know
that they should be, and die before they can be ... baptism by desire.




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