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Catholic Myths/Misconceptions...

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posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
So if someone would not be baptised nor desire to be, but did accept Christ's completed work as Savior, where would they go at death?


This is as close to an answer as I have found so far -
- Catechism section 1281 -

Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and
all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under
the inspiraton of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill
His will, are saved even if they have not been baptized.

I'm sure there is something better to answer that question ... but
the catechism is 800 pages long. It'll take a while to fish through
it for 'what if's' ....




posted on May, 25 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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Nevermind elf
I found it

So then human suffering has meaning? In suffering we are most closely conformed with Christ insofar as we unite our will to His Will by which He accepted the Cross in perfect union with the will of our heavenly Father. GOD so inflates our love beyond our natural capacity with His own love that it is truly "not I who live, but Christ who lives in me." We are co-Redeemers as we "make up for what is lacking in the Cross of Christ".

It seems we are all co-redeemers.
Thats crap.
There was nothing lacking at calvary.
Perfect sacrifice for sins. Nothing else needed. Free gift.


The source for the explanation


###########

As we finish that one up, .... has anyone asked about the Immaculate conception yet?



[edit on 25-5-2005 by jake1997]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Nevermind elf
I found it

So then human suffering has meaning? In suffering we are most closely conformed with Christ insofar as we unite our will to His Will by which He accepted the Cross in perfect union with the will of our heavenly Father. GOD so inflates our love beyond our natural capacity with His own love that it is truly "not I who live, but Christ who lives in me." We are co-Redeemers as we "make up for what is lacking in the Cross of Christ".

It seems we are all co-redeemers.
Thats crap.
There was nothing lacking at calvary.
Perfect sacrifice for sins. Nothing else needed. Free gift.


I agree that explanation is lacking. I would describe how I understand their beliefs as "help others to fully accept God's love". But, personally, I don't see the need for the title. There are only two titles for earthly creatures with any heavenly importance-- sinner and saint.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
It seems we are all co-redeemers. Thats crap.
There was nothing lacking at calvary.
Perfect sacrifice for sins. Nothing else needed. Free gift.


Jake, Jake, Jake.
What is 'crap' is your understanding.
Being 'with' doesn't add to Calvary.
You are interjecting.

Co means with.
If you are not 'with' Christ?
then you must be against him.
Which is it Jake ... are you with him or against him?
Remember ... the luke warm he will spit out of his mouth.

As far as 'lacking' at Calvary. Yes, it was the perfect sacrifice.
However, we DO have the SCRIPTURAL words of St. Paul to
ponder. He 'gets it'. Why not read this and meditate on it
for a while. You may (but I'm not holding my breath) finally
understand what 'with' means ...

www.oca.org...

Short excerpt - but you should read the entire article -

In his letter to the Christian community in Colossae, St Paul makes a
startling and, at first glance, troubling assertion. "Now I rejoice in [my]
sufferings [endured] for your sake," he declares, " and I complete in my
flesh what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His Body, which is
the Church" (Col 1:24). In what sense can the apostle complete, make up
for, or fulfill what is lacking in Christ’s own suffering?

From the early patristic period down to the present, biblical commentators
stress the point that Christ’s redemptive work – the work by which He
reconciles rebellious people with the God who loves them and seeks them
for His own – was wholly achieved by means of His Passion: His suffering
and death on the cross. If the eternal Son of God became incarnate as
Jesus of Nazareth, He did so primarily to endure suffering and death, then
to rise from the tomb as the Vanquisher of death. Through that unique and
decisive act, He destroyed the power of death, and with it the power of sin
and corruption, thereby opening before us the way that leads to eternal
communion with God the Father. As St Paul and the whole of Scripture
make clear, that saving, reconciling work is complete and lacks nothing.
Christ has accomplished everything necessary for our salvation, without
exception. What can the apostle mean, then, when he declares that he
completes "the things lacking" [in Greek, hysterêmata] in Christ’s
afflictions"?

The answer can be found in St Paul’s understanding of the Church as the
Body of Christ. In his earlier letters – to the Corinthians, for example – he
uses the image of a body with many interconnected members in reference
to local Christian communities. In Colossians, he is more concerned to
stress Christ’s Lordship over the entire cosmos, as over the living organism
which is the ekklesia, the Church universal. Incorporated into Christ
through baptism, the Christian lives in intimate communion with Him. So
intimate, in fact, that Christ actually dwells within the believer: "It is no
longer I who live," Paul affirms, "but Christ who lives in me!" (Gal 2:20).
The apostle’s own suffering, endured on behalf of the whole Body, thus shares in Christ’s sufferings, because of the communion that unites him
with the One who is the Head of the Body (Col 1:18).

More of this teaching at the site -
www.oca.org...


[edit on 5/26/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
As we finish that one up, .... has anyone asked
about the Immaculate conception yet?


Listen Junior... nothing has been 'finished up yet'.
You still don't understand 'co'... you still think
Catholics worship statues ... etc etc etc
You have littered BTS Religion Forum with plenty
of falsehoods with your lack of understanding
about Catholicism. All have been debunked
and yet you still puke them back up. Are you ADD?
Seriously. You can't stay on one subject long
enough to close it.

Considering the fact that you can't understand
that Catholics don't worship statues. That Catholics
have SACRED TRADITION and the bible says to hold
fast to those sacred traditions. Considering the
fact that you can't even understand things that
are that simple ... how the heck are you going to
understand theology about the Immaculate
Conception??? You want to fly and you don't
even know how to crawl or walk yet.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:13 AM
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Listen, what paul is talking about in suffering for christ are the crowns/rewards. The 'treasures in heaven' that Jesus spoke of.
Remember where its written "what ever you do to the least of these, you do to me"?
If you suffer for the sake of fellow believers, then you suffer for Christ.
It has nothing to do with redemption or salvation.

Salvation is a perfect gift. No assembly required



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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What Determines Christian Truth

..and yes I'm trollin' you Jake.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jake1997
As we finish that one up, .... has anyone asked
about the Immaculate conception yet?


Listen Junior... nothing has been 'finished up yet'.
You still don't understand 'co'... you still think
Catholics worship statues ... etc etc etc
You have littered BTS Religion Forum with plenty
of falsehoods with your lack of understanding
about Catholicism. All have been debunked
and yet you still puke them back up. Are you ADD?
Seriously. You can't stay on one subject long
enough to close it.

Considering the fact that you can't understand
that Catholics don't worship statues. That Catholics
have SACRED TRADITION and the bible says to hold
fast to those sacred traditions. Considering the
fact that you can't even understand things that
are that simple ... how the heck are you going to
understand theology about the Immaculate
Conception??? You want to fly and you don't
even know how to crawl or walk yet.



Actually, your Arrogantness...

I understand CO perfectly. That is why I asked about those examples.
Co, as in Co pilot...not co-owner. It was clear to others. Not you.

You are so arrogant, and so empty of any form of love that you do not even attempt to understand the person you are talking AT..instead of TO.

At least I present my information, right or wrong, and then listen to others.
It was very helpful to me.
Your sublte little jabs show clear to anyone else here who is attempting to be read objectively. You berate, and belittle.

Jesus said that the things that come out of the mouth, are what is in the heart.
Even IF I were wrong, and corrected about what I believed, at least I presented it in a straight forward, neutral manner. It seems that you are very lacking in anything Good. I hope you dont love your child with the same heart that those insults come from. I feel sorry for the child if you do.

Just as with Mat 1:25 and the verses showing Jesus had brothers...you ignore truth in favor of lies.
You speak evil of good
and good of evil
You would make a fine priest, or phirsee
In any event, you are ignored with the rest of the haters



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 01:39 PM
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web article is quoted:
We are co-Redeemers as we "make up for what is lacking in the Cross of Christ".--end quote--

jake1997 quote:
It seems we are all co-redeemers.
Thats crap.
There was nothing lacking at calvary.
Perfect sacrifice for sins. Nothing else needed. Free gift.


Hi, FlyersFan. Thanx 4 the links to the OCA articles. I think they express it well, but I'd like to amplify.

First, I observe that we have [at least] 3 perspectives among posters in this thread: Roman Catholic, Orthodox Catholic [AKA Eastern Orthodox] and Protestant.

The trick to get everybody on the same page is to agree on authoritative sources. That DOES NOT mean everybody will agree on the answers/interpretations. But at least we would all be aruguing [in the nice sense of the word] the same points.

I assume that the Roman Catholics both accept the ex cathedra infallibility of the Bishop of Rome and the legitimacy of 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Church.

I assume the Orthodox Catholics accept the legitimacy [and infallibility] of 7 Ecumenical Councils, but of no individuals except Christ Himself, although the statements of certain saints and writers is considered absolutely authoritative when endorsed by Ecumenical Council, even though other statements by the same writers may be only their personal opinions, nd not dogma or doctrine.

I assume the Protestants accept at least the infallibility of the Bible text, the Bible consisting of 66 books, excluding the "apocrypha" included in Anglican, Roman and Orthodox Catholic Bibles. I realize some Protestants also accept the dogmas of some of the earliest Ecumenical Councils, for example the "Nicene Creed" and the "Apostles Creed." But some do not, so I won't assume it.

It seems to be then, that there is an incontrovertible fact everyone can agree upon. St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Colossians 1:24 said: "I complete in my flesh what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His Body, which is the Church."

What apparently remains, is for everyone to agree on what he meant by the phrase "I complete in the flesh what is lacking in Christ's afflictions." [antanaplErO ta ysterEmata tOn thlipseOn tou khristou en tE sarki mou] [if you can follow my Greek transliteration. Apologies if not: upper case E & O stand for eta and omega, lower case for epsilon & omicron.]

Am I correct? Is everyone in agreement that this is the current point that is blocking further discussion/understanding?



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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It seems we have arrived at the place you are feeling.
I would also like to include in the goal here, the meaning of what Christ said on the cross. 'It is finished".
and how it all ties together



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:51 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
At least I present my information, right or wrong, and then listen to others.

No you don't listen to others. If you did, you wouldn't be spewing
the same tired old anti-Catholic rhetoric around BTS. It's the same
old thing over and over and over, even after it has been debunked.
But of course, to know that it has been debunked, you would have
to have actually read the links that were posted in answer to your
'questions' (accusations really) And Jake, I'm not the only one who
has seen this ... others have told you the same thing. I have seen
what they have said to you.


at least I presented it in a ... neutral manner.

Hahahahahaha!!! OMG!!! That was funny!
Here is one of your 'neutral' quotes from this
page. God only knows how many other
'neutral' quotes of yours I will find all over
the BTS religion forum -

JAKE 'NEUTRAL QUOTE' - It seems we are all co-redeemers. Thats crap.


you are ignored with the rest of the haters

Funny. A fellow with irrational pathological anti-Catholic obession
... a fellow who spews hate of the Catholic Church and the biblical
truths in which it teaches ... you have the gumption to falsely
claim someone who dares tell the truth and expose your errors -
is a 'hater'. hahahahaha

The only hate here Jake is the irrational hate that you have for the
Catholic church and that you hate the fact that EVERYTHING you have
posted against the Catholic church .. EVERYTHING .. has been debunked.
You want to hate, but everything you say is proven false, and your
hate has no where to go. Go ahead and direct it at me. I don't care.
I can take it. But the fact remains... everything you have tried to
throw at the Catholic church has not stuck. And why is that? Because
you are wrong Jake. Wrong. You are in with a bunch of people who
are filling your head with hate and lies. Break free Jake. Seriously.
Get out of that cult. It isn't good for you and it isn't of God.


[edit on 5/27/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
If you suffer for the sake of fellow believers, then you suffer for Christ.
It has nothing to do with redemption or salvation.

Yes. Christ is the redeemer.
You are WITH the redeemer.
in LATIN = co-redeemer.

Being co-redeemer doesn't mean you bring anything
to calvary. It means you are WITH the one who redeemed.
Just as St. Paul said. For some straaaaaaaaaaange reason
you are still trying to make it sound like the Catholic church
is saying that we participated in the redemption ... we didn't.
The Church is very clear on that. Read the catechism.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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You have a bit of selective 'hearing' goin on tho.
and on top of that, the quote is opinion on information you presented.


JAKE 'NEUTRAL QUOTE' - It seems we are all co-redeemers. Thats crap.


In this I mean...

There is no need for such a title as co-redeemer.

We CANNOT be both redeemer and redeemed. Christ redeemed all of us.
I play no part in your redemption. Christ does it all. Whoever told you about Christ was being used by Christ. Christ still did it all.
He could have used to stones to tell you about salvation.

On that COl 1:24 verse.

It seems there are differences between the translations, and that Paul may not be saying that Calvary is lacking at all.
Check these out

(CEV) I am glad that I can suffer for you. I am pleased also that in my own body I can continue the suffering of Christ for his body, the church.

(KJVR) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

(MSG) I want you to know how glad I am that it's me sitting here in this jail and not you. There's a lot of suffering to be entered into in this world--the kind of suffering Christ takes on. I welcome the chance to take my share in the church's part of that suffering.

compared to the ESV

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,


Now is the ESV any better then the others? When we see Jesus say "It is finished" it seems that the ESV should take a back seat to the others. But I will wait for word on it.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997


There is no need for such a title as co-redeemer.

We CANNOT be both redeemer and redeemed. Christ redeemed all of us.
I play no part in your redemption. Christ does it all. Whoever told you about Christ was being used by Christ. Christ still did it all.
He could have used to stones to tell you about salvation.




I agree and will add to this.

Someone can tell another person about Christ and Who He is, but that person must have their own personal relationship and faith in Christ. A person's faith must be firsthand in Christ. God's goal is for people to know Him individually and personally. God's goal is for us to realize that He wants to be a Father to each person and for that person to feel like His child. That intimacy comes through talking and living with God one on one. satan in the garden was a middleman in delivering untrue information about God to Adam and Eve. God wants no middleman to distort who He is.

In a relationship with God, it's you and Him alone, that is the goal.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Here is an article explaining What Christ accomplished on the Cross.....with explanations of the early church fathers...

Quote//the aim of the Christian life, says St. Seraphim of Sarov, is to acquire the Grace of the Holy Spirit.
[31] We receive the seed of that Grace within us at Baptism. And then, through our sacramental life in the Church,
through a life of prayer and virtue, practicing the commandments of Christ, we are to cultivate and nurture this seed of inward baptismal Grace so as to acquire a greater measure of Grace.
In being ever more filled with God's Grace or Energy, we grow ever more in the likeness of Christ. Then, after our death, Christ will recognize us as His own and will receive us into His Kingdom.

www.orthodoxinfo.com...


Without the CHURCH man cannot be with God.....For Christ Himself blessed the Church and founded the Apostles for this purpose .....The New Testament is the church.....

www.orthodoxinfo.com...

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6

by St. John (Maximovitch)
Related Articles

* The Church Is Visible and One: A Critique of Protestant Ecclesiology
* Notes on the Palamite Controversy and Related Topics, Part II
* The Ecclesiology of St. Ignatius of Antioch
* Original Sin According to St. Paul
* Orthodox Ecclesiology in Outline

"And He (Christ) is the of the body, the church (Col.1:18), "which is His body, the Fulness of Him the that Filleth all in all (Eph. 1:23)

In the Holy Scriptures the Church is repeatedly called the Body of Christ."Who (Paul) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, ... for His Body's sake, which is the Church (Col. 1:24), the Apostle Paul writes about himself.

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, says he, are given by Christ ". . .for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

At the same time, bread and wine are made into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Divine Liturgy, and the faithful partake thereof. Christ Himself ordained it so, communicating His apostles at the Mystical Supper with the words, "Take, eat; this is My Body; ... Drink ye all of it; For this is My Blood of the New Testament" (Mat. 26:26-28).
www.orthodoxinfo.com...
I.X
helen



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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When we ask her to pray for us, for the forgiveness of our sins.....

Holy Mary Mother of GOD, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of our death....



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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Listen, what paul is talking about in suffering for christ are the crowns/rewards. The 'treasures in heaven' that Jesus spoke of.
Remember where its written "what ever you do to the least of these, you do to me"?
If you suffer for the sake of fellow believers, then you suffer for Christ.
It has nothing to do with redemption or salvation.

Salvation is a perfect gift. No assembly required


As I pointed out in my previous post, the original phrase in Greek has to be understood. Further, it has to be understood in the context of Christian theology. By "Christian theology" I mean the precise defining of Christian dogma and doctrines by the whole Church. Your opinion is irrelevent, my opinion is irrelevent.

The phrase "fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ" uses the word "ysterEma" which means "a deficit," "poverty," "that which was lacking." The translation is not something I made up. If you can't read Greek, look it up in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible and check out entry # 5303 in the Greek lexicon section.

The question IS NOT whether or not Paul says the afflictions of Christ were lacking. He does say it, and it only remains for us to understand the question: "Lacking, in what sense? Lacking what?" You can't pretend to be Christian if you argue against what one of the Apostles said while under Divine Inspiration!

To complete the "Mystery of Salvation" is not the same as accepting a "perfect gift, no assembly required" under the tree on Christmas morning. To accept an heretical theology that is described in some comments posted in this thread would not only imply that Protestant Fundamentalist reductionism is superior to St. Paul's experience. It would also necessarily imply that suffering for Christ is an optional extra that earns you bonus points, but is not absolutely, fundamentally necessary to the Mystery of Salvation.

Christian tradition, whether Catholic or Protestant, universally recognizes that certain writings of certain men were included in the canon of Scripture by Holy Spirit Who inspired their writing. Whatever your pastor says is insignificant compared to what Paul said. So is whatever I say, or any other commentator.

To keep this post to a reasonable length, I will not attempt to take readers step-by-step through a few centuries of the Early Church's development of doctrines. But consider the following overview:

What ties the status of Mary as Theotokos [Bearer of God], to the Sacrifice/Sufferings of Jesus, to the sufferings of someone baptised into Christ . . .is the union of free will to Divine Will in what is theologically known as "Synergia" or "Synergy."

Remember that in the Gospel of Luke, the next event after Mary saying "Let it be to according to Your Word," she went to visit Elizabeth, who was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and said [among other words]: Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

This is the mystery of Mary uniting her human will to the Divine Will, the conception and birth of Christ.

In the Mount of Olives between the time of the Last Supper and His arrest, Jesus prayed: "Father, if it is Your Will, remove this cup from Me; nevertheless, not My Will but Yours be done." [Luke 22:42, NKJV]

This is the Mystery of Jesus uniting His human will to His Divine Will, the suffering and death by Crucifixion.

For centuries the Church argued over whether Jesus had a human will as well as a Divine will, just as it argued whether he was fully human or fully Divine. By the Sixth Ecumenical Council [Constantinople III] the Church had affirmed that Christ had both a fully human and a fully Divine nature perfectly united, and also fully human will and fully Divine Will working in perfect harmony, "Synergy."

For the person baptised into the Body of Christ, the task remains to participate in the Fullness of Christ through the Mysteries [--in Greek, AKA "Sacraments" in Latin] and contine to live in Christ through spiritual struggle. For example, see Paul's Epistle to the Romans, all of Chapter 6. See also Romans 7:15 - 8:17

This participation in the Mysteries makes up "what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ," namely personally uniting one's human will with the Divine Will. Not in your mind, imagining it, "believing" it, but in actual, complete experience, since "faith without works is dead." This explicitly includes suffering as a spiritual struggle against sin.

See also First Epistle of John, 1:5 - 2:5. There may be no better, more concise statement of the Gospel of Christ than what John wrote here, but God knows best.


Christ is the Icon of the invisible God...and He is the Head of the Body, the Church. [Col 1:15-18]
..in Him all the Fullness should dwell and through Him to reconcile all. Col 1:19b-20a



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:17 PM
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The question IS NOT whether or not Paul says the afflictions of Christ were lacking. He does say it, and it only remains for us to understand the question: "Lacking, in what sense? Lacking what?" You can't pretend to be Christian if you argue against what one of the Apostles said while under Divine Inspiration!


The question is not if he said it. He didnt speak english so why do we stick to this one english version.

Is the ESV a more perfect translation?

Now the way I read it, paul is saying that his own sufferings are lacking. He is glad to suffer for the sake of the brothers in the church so he can fill up the lack of suffering in his life (from when he use to persecute the church) in the name of Christ.
He is not saying at all that christ sacrifice was lacking.

So we have to establish the ESV translation over the others and also tie this in with

"It is finished"



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

The question is not if he said it. He didnt speak english so why do we stick to this one english version.


Is the ESV a more perfect translation?

Now the way I read it, paul is saying that his own sufferings are lacking. He is glad to suffer for the sake of the brothers in the church so he can fill up the lack of suffering in his life (from when he use to persecute the church) in the name of Christ.
He is not saying at all that christ sacrifice was lacking.

I'm not sticking to any particular English version. I'm telling you that in Greek, it says "I supplement the deficiency of the afflictions of Christ," in as close to a word-for word translation as is possible.

I could clarify it more, maybe, by stressing that grammatically " the deficit," or "what is lacking" belongs to "the afflictions of Christ" which phrase is in the genitive case, and in the active subject of the sentence "I" [ Paul speaking] "bring it up to fullness."

As I suggested, look it up in the original Greek. If you can't read Greek, look it up in Strong's Concordance.

You are free to believe what Paul is saying or to disbelieve it, but you can't get away with making up your own meaning when the meaning is very clear in the Greek text which is accepted by all Christians as being Divinely Inspired.

I do agree with you, however on one point. He is not saying that Christ's Sacrifice is lacking. Read my Post Number: 1414829 thoroughly, including the Scriptural passages I cite, and you might understand the distinction. It should take you at least a half-hour, maybe much longer to process all that info. It's not entry-level theology. But it's not mediaeval angels dancing on the head of a pin, either. It's pretty basic to the central core of Christian tradition, the meaning of the Life in Christ.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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The meaning of the verse will not be in doubt at all, once we establish the translation.

It seems that the KJV did not put it the same as the ESV. I have 8 english translations. I also have strongs. Im not making up a translation.

(CEV) I am glad that I can suffer for you. I am pleased also that in my own body I can continue the suffering of Christ for his body, the church.


(HNV) Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Messiah in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the assembly;

(ISV) Now I am rejoicing in my sufferings for you and completing in my flesh whatever remains of Christ's sufferings on behalf of his body, which is the church.


(KJVR) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

You say look at the greek. I say that its been done.

So now we have to prove scripture with other scripture. Then we will know the truth.
To say that anything is lacking in Christs affliction or sacrifice is nothing short of heresy. It means that God could not save us by our self. It teaches salvation by works. Christ said from the cross, "It is finished".

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Christ did it all. Jesus said we should expect the world to hate us because it hated Him. The suffering we encounter is due to Christ, and is counted as treasure in heaven.
No greater gift .....




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