Saudis arrest 40 Christians for praying!

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
ECK,

So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

The question was who had been arrested. The registration call was wrong but then, who was arrested?

Plenty of people were arrested. Held without charges. Incommunicado. Are you saying that did NOT happen in the wake of 9-11? Let's be clear.

Remember Jose Padilla, American citizen? (better known to you by the media/government smear machine as the DIRTY BOMBER!) He was arrested and incarcerated (to this day) with no charges being filed. He's still rotting in the Naval station at Goose Creek. He has NO recourse. He is an AMERICAN CITIZEN. If it can happen to him, it can happen to ANY one of us. Do NOT think it can't.

There was that other guy, too. I can't think of his name...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Plenty of people were arrested. Held without charges. Incommunicado. Are you saying that did NOT happen in the wake of 9-11? Let's be clear.

How many were charged with praticing Islam? If being Muslim is against the law in America why are they so many Mosques?

SA is a soverign country and we should not interfere in there internal affairs can you point out ONE SINGLE post of my several thousand where I suggested we interfere in ANY countrys internal affairs? Good luck finding one

But that doesnt make jailing people for there religious beliefs right.

Syntaxer
As funny as those pictures are, they need to be explained.

When two businessmen meet in Saudi Arabia, (most places in 'Arabia' actually), they get very close to each other during negotiations. Face to face isn't just a figure of speech over there. It's a sign of trust, the same way as extending of the hand to show that there is no weapon concealed (in European negotiations). Remember, Bush may be our President, but as far as the Saudis are concerned, he's just another Texas oil man with a vacant expression on his face.

Regardless of Hummus breath, you've got to be really close to negotiate properly.

That holding hands picture was hilarious though..I have no explanation for that.

Originally posted by Amuk
How many were charged with praticing Islam? If being Muslim is against the law in America why are they so many Mosques?

That has nothing to do with my comments. What I said was, after 9-11, Arab/Muslim men in the USA were called to register themselves with the authorities.

Where did that come from? I didn't say anything of the sort.

SA is a soverign country and we should not interfere in there internal affairs can you point out ONE SINGLE post of my several thousand where I suggested we interfere in ANY countrys internal affairs? Good luck finding one

Who are you talking to? I don't know what you're talking about.

But that doesnt make jailing people for there religious beliefs right.

To our western sensibilities its wrong, of course. And in the US, it's illegal (thank God). To me, it's more than that. It is intellectual weakness and spiritual/moral cowardice. But, if you happen to be in Saudi Arabia and you enjoy Wahabbism, it is right and dilineated in the law. Break it and you are a criminal.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That holding hands picture was hilarious though..I have no explanation for that.

Over there when men sit together or walk together, they hold hands and drape their arms around each other. It looks really gay, but it's not at all. It's just their culture. I'll never forget the looks on the faces of my fellow soldiers when we first got over there. It was hilarious.

So much for Bush's macho man image.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Amuk
How many were charged with praticing Islam? If being Muslim is against the law in America why are they so many Mosques?

That has nothing to do with my comments. What I said was, after 9-11, Arab/Muslim men in the USA were called to register themselves with the authorities.

Where did that come from? I didn't say anything of the sort.

Here is the entire quote.......

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Amuk
Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

You are comparing the two are you not? I was merely pointing out that having ALIENS register and prove there whereabouts has NOTHING to do with arresting people for praticing there religion, you are the one comparing them.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

SA is a soverign country and we should not interfere in there internal affairs can you point out ONE SINGLE post of my several thousand where I suggested we interfere in ANY countrys internal affairs? Good luck finding one

Who are you talking to? I don't know what you're talking about.

I was replying to this.....

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
We have no right to tell them how to worship any more than they have a right to tell us how to worship. It's time for us to be realistic. It's a cold hard world out there. Knowing this should make us all more grateful to be here - where we can still worship as we wish without fear.

We dont have a right to tell them how to worship, nor do we have a right to tell the Sudanese they cant have slaves or the Israelis they cant shoot Palestinians or vica-versa.

I was merely pointing out I have NEVER claimed we should.

Just to add to the debate if I may??

I've tried to research this topic quite extensively, as I feel that uninformed, or one-sided speculation, is retrograde and regressive. One web site that shows something of the situation is ANTI-MUSLIM RHETORIC AND INCIDENTS - DISCRIMINATION - HATE CRIMES (Their capitals, incidentally, not mine).

This site was (is?) maintained by The American Muslim and shows a note that it is "By section moved 4-8-2004", so is presumably not updated very often.

Anyway for those who are interested in the situation in America - and elsewhere in the world (trust me) I would recommend you look at the site. For those who aren't, because they have already made their minds up, please don't bother yourselves.

Sample quote from one source concerning Mosques (as my friend Amuk mentions these) taken from USA Today:

"....The Muslim Civil Rights Center in Hickory Hills, Ill., has received several recent reports of opposition to planned Islamic centers, says Ahmad Tansheet, the center's community outreach coordinator. "It's kind of new after Sept. 11," he says of the heightened tension. "We don't have statistics because it's something new. I hope ultimately it will die down."

Even before the attacks, building a mosque in America "wasn't the easiest thing" to do, says Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on Islamic-American Relations, a civil rights and advocacy group in Washington, D.C. Now, he says, it can be more difficult. "Usually there's a lot of talk of parking and traffic and other things that are sometimes seen as a smoke screen for the real issue," Hooper says. "You'll also get overt bigotry coming to the surface."...."

Happy reading (incidentally, there are lot's of sources quoted that show some real gems of understanding) - I liked this one from Dr. Michael Hurd quoted in Capitalism Magazine very much - it was compassionate and empathised really well with the human condition:

"...Yet nobody wants to consider using nuclear weapons first -- much less bombing a few mosques to defeat the Taliban.

This is not an attitude which will win a war. Nor will it defeat one of the greatest evils the world has ever seen: Islamic terrorism. We had better drop the politically correct, fawning approach to fighting people who want us dead.

The truth is hard for some to face, but face it we must: If we want to keep them from destroying us, we must destroy them first."

I was really impressed that "Dr. Michael Hurd is a psychologist, psychotherapist and author of Effective Therapy (New York: Dunhill, 1997)"

WOW!! And I thought I had problems - get me to a shrink fast - but spare me the god Doctor Hurd, please!

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Syntaxer
As funny as those pictures are, they need to be explained.

When two businessmen meet in Saudi Arabia, (most places in 'Arabia' actually), they get very close to each other during negotiations. Face to face isn't just a figure of speech over there. It's a sign of trust, the same way as extending of the hand to show that there is no weapon concealed (in European negotiations). Remember, Bush may be our President, but as far as the Saudis are concerned, he's just another Texas oil man with a vacant expression on his face.

Regardless of Hummus breath, you've got to be really close to negotiate properly.

That holding hands picture was hilarious though..I have no explanation for that.

I agree with everything you said, based on common sense most rational people would come to that same conclusion. However, i hate the double-standard that our government projects through our transparent foreign policy.

"We want to spread freedom and democracy, put an end to Tyranny and oppression" Etc Etc. Yet the Bush Administration clearly side-steps to support one the most oppressed tyrannical enforced regimes, and quite arguably the heartland of terrorism on the planet..

That would be holding hands kissing brothers Saudi Arabia, almost comical huh?..

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Btw, since when has any American looked to the world to tell him how his life in the USA (and its customs) is and should be? NEVER. So don't project your view onto other cultures. Its just plain wrong.

Well actually we have, The American Revolution was inspired by the French revolution to a large extent. Also the freedom for all and rule of law were also picked up from our European Cousins. Their are other examples too but thats off topic!

Originally posted by AlfredENewman
I've tried to research this topic quite extensively, as I feel that uninformed, or one-sided speculation, is retrograde and regressive. One web site that shows something of the situation is ANTI-MUSLIM RHETORIC AND INCIDENTS - DISCRIMINATION - HATE CRIMES (Their capitals, incidentally, not mine).
Anyway for those who are interested in the situation in America - and elsewhere in the world (trust me) I would recommend you look at the site. For those who aren't, because they have already made their minds up, please don't bother yourselves.

Well if you call this a 'rational and balanced' approach then you need to look up rational and balanced again. When a perticular religion actively encourages its followers to look other religions as the embodiment of evil and propagates hatred towards other then how can we even begin to apply our 'Christian' values towards them?? Shouldn't we respond just as they would- with hate and extreem violence ??
Do you seriously believe that if the muslim world and the christian worlds were to be switched then they would show us the same leniance that we show towards them?? They would cage every single non muslim and treat them as animals if they could, they can do it to women of the same religion why not to people of other religionS?
BTW are the saudi's not part of the "human World" and don't human rights apply in muslim nations, the only saving grace for the entire muslim world is that by some strange fate they are sitting on the largest oil reserves in the world. Imagine what their standing would be if they had no oilk? It would be just like Afganistan- savages!
Here are the rights these people have violated, it would be better to look at their violations that to ask America to treat them better!UN report
Amnesty Int.
lantos.house.gov...
www.multied.com...#uscrf

Well actually we have, The American Revolution was inspired by the French revolution to a large extent.

How could the American revolution be inspired by the French revolution when the American revolution ended something like 6 years before the French started theirs.

Syntaxer
It wouldn't be the first time we've supported a repressive regime to either A.) extract natural resources, or B.) take strategic advantage over another superpower. Columbia springs to mind. There are definitely others, in Europe, S. and Central America, and SE Asia. This is not the place to get into an in depth discussion, but I think I speak unopposed when I say America, in the name of liberty, freedom, and justice, has supported, financed, protected, and advanced the interests of a tyrannical nation state more than once. In fact, we do it so often, and with such disregard for common human decency, we've become infamous for it.

Other nations do it also (to neuter the common rebuttal).

The problem as I see it: most people in America aren't smart enough, or compassionate enough, to realize all the 'values' laden speech for the hogwash it is. The rest are split evenly between the other three camps, indifferent, outraged, and desirous (of their 300$ check come tax-time).

I'm almost sure Saudi Arabia suffers from the same problems. They are an oppressive regime that operates in identical fashion to all other oppressive regimes. They use lies, half-truths, religious fear mongering, and terrorism to get what they want and maintain their stranglehold. They're in good company with American politicians it seems.

Those two walking hand in hand..'merely' kindred spirits, or soulmates?

The Middle East is a highly volatile area when it comes to religion. As three opposing religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - originated from that region, there has long been a lot of hostility between them. People will fight and kill for their religious convictions, this is nothing new. As a predominantly Muslim country the majority of Saudi's will be opposed or prejudiced in some way towards Christians and Jews, just as people all over the world are intolerant of those who do not share their beliefs.

This is not so much a national issue for Saudi Arabia as a cultural issue for the whole region. The implication in some posts on this thread seems to be that as such incidents have occured in the Middle East, the US is morally superior. Not so. Religious bigotry and prejudice exists everywhere, as you can see from the many thousands of anti-Islamic, anti-Semetic and anti-Christian posts on this forum. The only difference is that the US is more democratic, and religious intolerance is not enforced by the government, although whether it is encouraged is another matter.

It would be arrogant to assume that western nations could change the situation, grave at it is in Saudi Arabia, by imposing their own values. It is an issue to be considered by religious clerics internationally. Only a change in the attitudes of billions of people could remedy the problem, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Saudi Arabia has a poor record, but it is not unique in terms of religious intolerance.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Btw, since when has any American looked to the world to tell him how his life in the USA (and its customs) is and should be? NEVER. So don't project your view onto other cultures. Its just plain wrong.

Originally posted by IAF101
Well actually we have, The American Revolution was inspired by the French revolution to a large extent. Also the freedom for all and rule of law were also picked up from our European Cousins. Their are other examples too but thats off topic!

I was referring to the here and now. Look at how many people HATE the UN and disparage it. Look at how the administration demonised FRANCE over their unwillingness to follow in our disasterous footsteps to Iraq. Those on the right DESPISE anyone willing to consider the point of view of other nations when it comes to US policy.



[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Pass the pipe when you're done.

: Originally posted by Amuk
Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

They were told to register b/c of their ethnicity. Not for practicing Islam.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by IAF101Well if you call this a 'rational and balanced' approach then you need to look up rational and balanced again. When a perticular religion actively encourages its followers to look other religions as the embodiment of evil and propagates hatred towards other then how can we even begin to apply our 'Christian' values towards them?? ...

My use of the expession "rational and balanced" refered to the discussion, not about the perticular (sic) religion itself.

It seems there are very polarised views here - some have made up their minds already - me being one of them, of course

My arguemnt runs simply like this: how can you stereotype a whole people simply by their faith or religion?? Or by the country they live in? I live in a "Christian" society, and, in my Life have been a confirmed Church of England member (Churchwarden in fact) but I know of "Christians" here who would do me great harm ....

Equally, because of my job, I meet with many from different faiths - including (shock horror) Muslims - why, just a fortnight ago I was at a Careers Fair held in a local Pakistani and Bangladeshi Community Centre. Did I feel nervous? Did I carry a gun? No. Don't be silly!!

My "take" on this has always been - "folks is folks". The vast majority of people are honest, law-abiding types I believe. Sure, there are extremists out there - BUT they can be right-wing, neo-nazis, as well as Islamic Fundamentalists. Both groups would wish me harm.

So, I don't believe that "we" have a monopoly on the "truth" and the "right way" - that is the balance I am advocating in this discussion.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Pass the pipe when you're done.

: Originally posted by Amuk
Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

They were told to register b/c of their ethnicity. Not for practicing Islam.

Be sure to pass it back....

Here is YOUR WORDS.....

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Amuk
Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

I asked how many people were arrested for praticing their religion and this was your response.

Unless I am mistaken (and I could be) most if not all were either aliens or on a watch list not really unreasonable to want to know who and where they were do you think?

Now pass the pipe and tell me what this has to do with arresting people ONLY for praying to there God?

Originally posted by Amuk ....I asked how many people were arrested for praticing their religion and this was your response.

...Now pass the pipe and tell me what this has to do with arresting people ONLY for praying to there God?

Well, I'm trying Amuk!

How's this for close association for a start? (Apologies for the long quote but they are needed to make some sense of the story I think?)

"Tashkent, Uzbekistan -- The sentencing of Abduvali Gulyamov (NB!! a muslim) to 18 years in prison contained a single line about the crime he committed. It read: "He confessed that in 1996 he started to pray." ....

.... For years, the United States has been among the more vocal critics of such persecution. But since the Uzbek government agreed to allow the stationing of U.S. ground troops and aircraft on its territory, human rights groups fear that America will tone down its criticism. ..."

So, whilst not evidence of direct action, perhaps a case of "averting one's gaze" if the situation warrants it ie because it might offend ones "friends"??

Originally posted by Amuk
Now pass the pipe and tell me what this has to do with arresting people ONLY for praying to there God?

Here ya go.. cough.. cough..

Here are two very informative pieces on this issue. I mistakenly thought that US Arab/Muslims CITIZENS had to register. Let it be known! I stand corrected - on that point.

The pieces are very useful, though, in understanding the numbers and what Arab/Muslims have had to go through in the USA since 9-11. It's highly reminscent of how the Japanese were rounded up and placed in internment camps out West during WW2.

In a Virtual Internment Camp: Muslim Americans since 9/11
By Abdul Malik Mujahid
On January 28, 2002, Dr. Raman Aziz al-Abi, a university professor, went to work. He was teaching a class to some 100 students when, suddenly, a group of men burst into the lecture hall, shackled the professor and whisked him away. Professor al-Abi's students said he pleaded with the men to let him speak to an attorney but they physically dragged him off. The men who took him away refused to answer any questions and Professor al-Abi disappeared. This isn't an abduction story from some distant land run by a tin pot dictator or a scene from a Hollywood thriller. This event took place right here in the United States. Professor al-Abi was a teacher at the University of Northwest Central Texas at South Pantego. He had lived in the United States for 27 years and had been accepted for citizenship just a week before. His naturalization ceremony was two weeks later.

Professor al-Abi was arrested and no one knew where he was, local police denied having any information of his arrest. His friends and family hired a lawyer and started making inquiries: the US Attorney General's office, the US Department of Justice, and the Office of Homeland Security. There was no response. The case went to court. It turned out that Professor al-Abi had been transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for interrogation and possible trial by military commission. Part of the evidence against him was that the he had an 18 year-old half-brother who was allegedly a member of a terrorist organization. The brother was being held in an undisclosed location as well. Professor al-Abi was, therefore, a terrorist because he associated with terrorists.

Professor al-Abi's case came before the Federal Court of Appeals which decided in his favor. The court essentially said his fundamental rights had been violated and, while he was to remain in jail, he should be brought back to the US and detained in a prison close to his home. Professor al-Abi was one of the few lucky ones. He had the means to acquire an attorney, people who were able to help him from the outside, and he was arrested in public with scores of people willing to give their testimony as to how he was treated. This hasn't been the case for thousands more who were arrested in secret and detained without any access to counsel and no one working for them on the outside. Literally thousands of people have opted for voluntary deportation despite their innocence because they were not in a position to fight and certainly did not desire languishing in anonymity for an indefinite period of time.
soundvision.com...

Post 9/11 Domestic Policies Affecting U. S. Arabs and Muslims: A Brief Review

LOUISE CAINKAR

U. S. government “anti-terrorism” policies and initia-tives launched since the September 11 attacks have had a profoundly negative impact on Arabs and Muslims in the U. S., largely because they have targeted members of these communities indiscriminately. Of the roughly twenty policies and initiatives implemented in the first twelve months after 9/11, fifteen explicitly targeted Ar-abs and Muslims. It is important to note that these policies are not part of the USA PATRIOT Act; they are largely creations of the executive branch, a few of which are summarized here.

In late October 2001, the State Department issued a classified cable imposing a twenty-day mandatory hold on all non-immigrant visa applications submitted by men aged eighteen to forty-five from twenty-six coun-tries, most of them Arab or Muslim. All such applicants were to be subjected to special security clearances. Even stricter procedures were put in place in certain countries. For example, beginning in August 2002, the U. S. Am-bassador to Jordan announced that visa applications were no longer being approved at the American Consu-late in Amman. All visa applications were sent to Washington D.C. for approval and no time limit was imposed on the response. The ambassador stressed that Jordan was not singled out for this process; other Arab countries had similar rules. From across the Arab and Muslim world, thousands of students were unable to continue studies in the U. S., professors could not return to teach, jobs and fellowships were lost, and medical treatment and chemotherapy in the
U. S. were discontinued.
www.cssaame.ilstu.edu...

How can Bush embrace these people at his ranch when they arrest Christians for praying?