Saudis arrest 40 Christians for praying!

What does Gitmo have to do with christians who were praying in saudi arabia?
Those people are locked up in cuba because they are suspected terrorists and dangerous.

The Kingdom perceives Christianity as a corrosive influence, (dangerous), and a potential threat to their society.

The similarity is there, but admittedly the Gitmo thing was off topic.

Still..it made a point. Hypocrisy and bad governance are everywhere. Always have been, likely always will be.

Until people stop pretending that their own sins are forgivable while those of their adversaries are not.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

It doesn't matter whether or not we agree with their practices. As a sovereing nation, no matter how barbaric we see them, they have a right to live as they wish. If you don't like it, don't go there.

Well that’s not true entirely ECK, I have lived in Riyadh for 5 years (1990-1995) and I stayed in a entirely American compound where women were allowed to go without wearing the burka without the muthawa getting them and also we could practice Christianity to some extent( no church but you could pray inside your house), but once you leave the compound its back to their rules again. Of course the people who owned the place had royal connections but in the KSA people who have connections can get away with anything and I mean anything, no questions asked!!
That’s not justice, its just a mockery of their religion and their laws. Also justice is dependent on the person; that is if he is American, British, French, German, Japanese, Russian, Indian, Pakistani etc this is in descending order of favoritism, so if an American dies in a car accident his family gets compensated around 1million riayals while if an Indian or Pakistani dies in an accident his family gets only around 50,000 riyals. So again justice is arbitrary and depends on your nationality and religion too.
They have a right to live as they want to but what I'm saying is this sort of justice affects their entire populace and they identify it as justice and thus are brainwashed to believe what is right and wrong without questioning what the world practises.
SAD~!!

latest windmill driven sky-thrust phallus sculpture

hee hee hee "sky-thrust" thats priceless but seriously though...

Was this anti-islamic nonsense post really necessary? I mean come on who cares other then people biased toward christians? Why are these christians worthy of all this attention but all the other religions (including muslim sects) being persecuted in Saudi Arabia arent? Stop being a hypocrite your giving christianity a bad name!

Being arrested for praticing your religion is wrong in any country. If this had have happened in America to Muslims the entire board would have been outraged and calling for entire world to rise up and kill us all as is so often asked of the entire world by many members....LOL.


What I find unusual is the king of this country was welcomed a few days ago with open arms by our President who rode the Christian Rights Coat tails into the whitehouse and claims anyone against him is a heathen.

Do you think this was even mentioned during the meeting? I doubt it. They could be eatting Christian Babies as long as the price of oil stayed in the correct range and our Godly Republicans (or Democrats either) would never say a word.

The other thing I would like to point out is this is what you get when Government and religion mix. That is why or founding fathers seperated the two.

I only hope the rest of the world doesn't ignore this and point the civil rights finger at the US for locking up suspected "Islamic" terrorist while peace loving Christians rot in some dry SA jail cell. But of course, Saudi's have about as much military authority as Monaco, so I doubt this will turn into some sort of world wide outcry.

Originally posted by Thomas CrowneWhy is it that hatred always has to seethe out if Christianity or America is mentioned?

Becuase of the source quite frankly. Mr. Singer does not seem to get up in arms about the Shia who are donwtrodden in their won native country, but thinks that christians who aren't citizens of saudi arabia have some special claim of privelige. What SA did was wrong, undoubtedly. However, SA is a country with no political, civic, or religious, freedoms. Its a tyranny, and one supported by theology. Its a shame that these guys got arrested. But they broke the law.

Its a shame that so many muslims in the US are getting arrested and held indefinitely, for mere suspicion of terrorism ties too.

amuk
If this had have happened in America to Muslims the entire board would have been outraged

Honestly, lets face it, some muslims are arrested in the west merely for practicing their religion. They fall under suspicsion because they are muslim, and they risk arrest and imprisonment if their interpretation of their faith concludes things like 'the iraq war was unjust' and 'the insurgency is correct to resist'. It's seen as being supportive of terrorists. The saudis have faith in theri religion, they beleive it. They beleive that christianity is an immoral perversion of the one true monotheistic religion, and that christians are either tools or agents of a great, dark, enemy.
Now. I am not saying that people who support jihand should be immune from prosecution. But there is a fuzzy area here were a person's politics are so terribly mixed up with religion, that we can't, honestly, state that there's no religious angle to it.
And, agian, this arrest was wrong, all these arrests and beatings and violent surpression of different sects in SA are wrong, and should be stopped.

while peace loving Christians rot in some dry SA jail cell

Peace loving? THey were instigating a resurection against islam itself. They alleged that the founder of the faith was a violent perverted pedophile. Pretty stupid thing to say in a country where the Church is The State. Its downright rebellious.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Honestly, lets face it, some muslims are arrested in the west merely for practicing their religion.

Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

Yes, this is what happens when you want a STATE religion in your country. When you mix politics and religion, then you get STATE RELIGION. The laws of Saudi Arabia were broken.

Do you want the same laws here in America? It sure seems to be going that way- the legislative branch is crumbling under the executive
the judicial branch is crumbling under the executive
the Pharmicists don't have to give medicine if they don't want to because of Christian beliefs (the drug for prevention of pregnancy can also be used to fight against uterine fibroids- although why this is any business of the pharmacists' can be explained by someone else.
What if we had a Christian nation, that invaded your privacy- or sent you to jail because you didn't pay the church this year?

---------
hatred is not a family value

Originally posted by AmukWhich ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

A good place to start is Human Rights Watch Amuk:

Quote:

"On morning of June 18, 2002, I went to a drug store to pick up allergy medication… A woman who was angry that I had left one of my children in my car while I picked up the medication began berating me. She told me, “I’ve learned all about you people [Muslims] over the last 10 months and I don’t trust a single damn one of you.” I tried to move away from her but the woman slammed me to the floor and began pulling at my hijab. I screamed at her to let me go, and that I was having trouble breathing, but the woman kept pulling on my hijab. In a panic, I pulled off my hijab in order to stop from choking. The woman then dragged me by my hair to the front of the store. The woman did not let me go until police arrived. My young children witnessed this sad event.
-FK, an American Muslim woman from Houston, Texas (name changed at victim’s request)"

However, this was "citizen on citizen" - but trawl HRW for other stories if you will.

The UK is not exempt either, just in case some think I am having a"pop" at the USA. Look at this if you will, about the Terrorism Act 2005 (also from HRW):

"... “First we had indefinite detention, now we have curfews and tagging – but still without trial. That hardly counts as progress,” said Ben Ward, special counsel in the Europe and Central Asia division of Human Rights Watch. “The government refuses to acknowledge a basic truth: punishment without trial is unacceptable, no matter what.” ..."

But all done in the name of freedom, so that makes it acceptable, I suppose??

accountability

Thats what is strange to me is that most that are screaming the loudest over the treatment of other religions in SA would cheerfully place the same type of government in America.

It is wrong for them to Jail Christians or #tes or whatever.

There is a good reason the Founding Fathers seperated the two

Originally posted by AlfredENewman
However, this was "citizen on citizen" - but trawl HRW for other stories if you will.

Exactly.

Where is a story about the GOVERNMENT raiding a Mosque and arresting those inside for practicing there religion?

As a matter of fact the police came to the aide of the MUSLIM in your story did it not? How can you equate the acts of individuals WHICH ARE ILLEGAL to the acts of governments?


[edit on 26-4-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

It doesn't matter whether or not we agree with their practices. As a sovereing nation, no matter how barbaric we see them, they have a right to live as they wish. If you don't like it, don't go there.

Originally posted by IAF101
Well that’s not true entirely ECK, I have lived in Riyadh for 5 years (1990-1995) and I stayed in a entirely American compound

That's on an American COMPOUND, as you said. Try that outside the gates. My friend got us some moonshine from an Aramco compound once. Had we been caught drinking it off the compound, they probly would have killed us.

They have a right to live as they want to but what I'm saying is this sort of justice affects their entire populace and they identify it as justice and thus are brainwashed to believe what is right and wrong without questioning what the world practises.
SAD~!!

And we in the west aren't brainwashed likewise? Thoroughly socialized from k-12.. And y'all thought you were in school to learn your ABC's and 123's.. naive, indeed. It's called indoctrination.

To a multitude of Muslims it is justice. ISLAMIC justice. Why is it so hard for westerners to accept that MAYBE just MAYBE they (or many of them) actually enjoy their way of life and would never trade it for life in the west? Hell, I'll go even further.. I'd bet money a whole lot of American men would secretly love certain aspects of the Saudi way of life (men rule, women are subordinate). No one will cop to that, though.

Btw, since when has any American looked to the world to tell him how his life in the USA (and its customs) is and should be? NEVER. So don't project your view onto other cultures. Its just plain wrong.



[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by Amuk
which ones?

I'm not trying to build a federal case or something, and I suspect it hasn't happened much in america. But in the west in general I've occasionally seen reports of immoderate mosques being raided members arrested. The only point is that saudis, who were wrong, weren't just acting out of 'crazy moslem intolerance'. The west feels, rightly so, justified in suspecting and even detaining people who are perceived as religious extremists. Fortunately in the US there are legal restrictions to prevent that sort of thing. Similarly, the Saudis are not unreasonably concered with foreigners bringing their foreign religion of evil and perversity into their pure native land. I think that they are being schmucks, but I also find the 'outrage' over a couple of half-witted christers somewhat hypocritical. If the shi'ites can practice their religion in SA, what makes any of the christians think that they can? If people are calling for religious freedom in SA, all well and good, but merely special treatment for the christians?

Originally posted by AmukExactly.

Where is a story about the GOVERNMENT raiding a Mosque and arresting those inside for practicing there religion?

OK - point taken Amuk!

I fell into the trap of following Mr Crownes earlier post - quote:

"...Try it again, Marterp, it took place at someone's HOUSE...."

rather than direct attacks on churches or mosques. Very many apologies for doing so.

However, Governments have attacked mosques of course. For example here:

"...Ra’ad Hussam Thamil, a 58 year-old man who was praying inside the mosque when the soldiers stormed it, said the crowd of 200 people was held at gunpoint for nearly one hour.

After being frisked and insulted by U.S. soldiers, Thamil said what most made him angry that they desecrated the holy place with their boots.

Following that raid, Kassem, a 54 year-old grandfather who works as one of the guards at the mosque, said a U.S. soldier hit him in the forehead with the butt of an M-16 rifle.

"When I fell to the ground they kicked me. They came to humiliate the people of Islam. Why else? We have no guns here, no mujahedeen [fighters]. They want to destroy the Islamic religion."

This is the fourth time Abu Hanifa Mosque has been raided by the U.S.-led occupation forces since the invasion of the oil-rich country on March 20, 2003 . The previous raid of the mosque occurred on April 11.

On April 7, the U.S. occupation military admitted that a Cobra helicopter slammed a Hell Fire missile and a laser-guided precision bomb into Abdulaziz Al-Samarai mosque in the restive town of Fallujah, killing up to 40 people.... "

Of course, all these people were terrorists and deserved it, I suppose??

Originally posted by Amuk
Being arrested for praticing your religion is wrong in any country. If this had have happened in America to Muslims the entire board would have been outraged and calling for entire world to rise up and kill us all as is so often asked of the entire world by many members....LOL.

That is merely your opinion. What is my opinion? Christianity must scare them, so they try and stomp it out. It is about personal freedom/freewill. The brand of religion most Saudis adhere to is all about repression, control (to the western mind anyway). It doesn't matter what would happen in the USA. It did not happen here, it happened there. In their country. We have no right to tell them how to worship any more than they have a right to tell us how to worship. It's time for us to be realistic. It's a cold hard world out there. Knowing this should make us all more grateful to be here - where we can still worship as we wish without fear.

What I find unusual is the king of this country was welcomed a few days ago with open arms by our President who rode the Christian Rights Coat tails into the whitehouse and claims anyone against him is a heathen.

That's because the House of Saud owns Bush. He only pays lip service to the Christian right and Christianity. His sole allegience is with the Saudis and all that denero they pass between each other.

Do you think this was even mentioned during the meeting?

No. They were too busy holding hands and gazing into each others' eyes.

The other thing I would like to point out is this is what you get when Government and religion mix. That is why or founding fathers seperated the two.

I used to be on the side of the conservative Christian Republicans until the GOP came into power and I saw for my own eyes how mad they went with it. I now am ALL for the separation between church and state like I never was before. If the Christian right had their way, we'd be living in a rigid theocracy - a westernized Taliban, if you will. I say NO THANK YOU. They can tell their kids what to do and what not to do; but they have no right telling ME and MINE how to live.

Originally posted by Amuk
Which ones? Give me some names of Muslims that were arrested for being "Muslim"? Which Mosques were raided and the followers hauled off for being Muslims? What City? When?

So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

ECK,

So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

The question was who had been arrested. The registration call was wrong but then, who was arrested?

Originally posted by EastCoastKid...So soon we forget.. after 9-11 all Arab/Muslim men in the US were called upon to register with our government.

And this story is telling I think??

"...US immigration officials in Southern California have detained hundreds of Iranians and other Muslim men who turned up to register under residence laws brought in as part of the anti-terror drive.

Reports say between 500 and 700 men were arrested in and around Los Angeles after they complied with an order to register by 16 December (2002).

The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) is refusing to say how many people were arrested but said detainees were being held for suspected visa violations and other offences..."

But they were terrorists I imagine??

Wait one damn second!
I thought everything was hunky-dorey between Christians and Muslims these days? Looks like true love if you were to ask me!




Ah well.. at least dinner was paid for..

[edit on 26-4-2005 by syntaxer]