Debunking religion (mainly Christiantiy)

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posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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Shenroon,

You are not very bright as a Englishman. But then you are going to English public schools.
Dont worry ...they are working very quickly to install schools of the same caliber and lack of thinking ...except with cheap emotions here in America.

Shenroon...I strongly suggest that as a Englishman...you research the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell...also the Puritans as it was mostly the Puritans and thier religious beliefs that overthrew the "control system " of church and state operating under the religious dogma called " Divine Right of Kings".
It was the singular event out of this very bloody civil war...the beheading of a king by the common people..that brought prosperity to the English and was the begining of her greatness as a nation.
However ..when the kings returned....under Charles II. Soon after they discoverd Gin and the nation went into Humanism and self indulgence and into the pits. This was a 180 degree turn around into the dregs before they realized they had better turn this around.
It was religion that did alot of this Shenroon. I am astonished that as a Englishman you dont seem to know this history.
However to all fairness...there are many Americans who dont know this or any other facet of history.
My point is Shenroon...you have a very provincial view ..which is to be expected of a well groomed consumer. Especially at your age you have all the ingredients necessary to consume yourself without a well established security blanket..to keep you from hitting the concrete...dont ever let go of your security blanket. You are young Shenroon...nothing wrong with that ..as long as you know that you dont know much. You still have time to learn what is missing from your education and understanding, especially the role that religion plays among peoples..good and bad.
Keep working at it...Good luck.

Thanks Orangetom




posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Excuse me, but what exactly are you people debunking about religion and Christianity?

Every religion has its "savior".
Every religion has a "omnipotent, omnipresent, etc." God/gods.
Every religion believes in an afterlife.
Nearly all talk of a "Noah" character.
Nearly all talk of "evil" and "demons".
Nearly all talk of "heavenly beings."
Religion and worship of God and gods has been with man since man was able to think and reason.
Etc.
Etc.

What exactly are you people debunking, while asserting that religion is a tool to control the masses? And if it is to control the "masses," amazing how when "religion" began, it was not about controlling the "masses" but to give praise, thanks, and worship for everyday life, etc., huh?





seekerof

[edit on 17-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Well said Seeker.....

and I leave you with......

Quote//The Lord says: Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled (Matt 5:6).
Here the law of knowledge of higher spiritual truths is made known to us: the goal of knowledge must be truth and for truth's sake, for the sake of God's righteousness contained in it.
Knowledge must come out of a desire for truth and out of love for it. Then and only then will it be revealed to us.

www.stvladimirs.ca...

Glory Be to God
helen...



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:17 AM
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Orange you know I respect you but frankly your comment about english public schools is rather untrue.
I live in scotland but know many english people and they are just as educated as I, or any person in the UK.



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 10:38 AM
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Devil Wasp,
Yes I tend to agree...however I was astonished to find Brits who dont know much about the English Civil war and the participants or the positions behind it..
This should not be surprising to me ..as alot of history is being re written or left out all together ..this is happening more and more here in America..and we think ourselves intellectual for following the European example.
However ...at times I am in fact astonished..by this..yet I shouldnt be.
However..Devil Wasp..I'll wager you that many Brits..just like us Yanks ..know every latest product to come down the pipe..every latest joke...or who is who in football. This is a fingerprint..a clear fingerprint.. of values and priorities. It is not accidental.

Thanks Orangetom



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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"In the teachings of Gnosis we know that there are three types of mind.


The first is the sensual mind.

The second is the intermediate mind.

The third is the interior mind.


The first mind elaborates its concepts with its contents, by way of the data obtained with external sensorial perceptive senses. Therefore, it cannot know anything about That which is the Reality.

The second mind is the deposit of religious beliefs.

The third mind functions only with the data of the awakened Consciousness.


The leaven of the materialistic and incredulous Sadducees is in the first mind.

The leaven of the hypocritical Pharisees, who do not work on themselves, is in the second mind.

In the third mind is Sophia, Divine Wisdom, who is based on the direct and lively experience of That which is not of time.


Jesus, the great Kabir, warned us by saying, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.”


The materialistic doctrines of the Sadducees always rotate inside their vicious circle, which is their external sensorial perceptions. Therefore, they cannot know anything about That which is the Reality, about That which is beyond time.

Obviously, the Truth is beyond the body, affections and mind.

The fanatical Sadducees, materialists, and incredulous ones are born in time and they are lost in time. They do not know the Reality.


The hypocritical Pharisees believe, yet they do not know anything about That which is beyond time.


Only Pistis Sophia knows by direct mystical experience. However, she is related only with the interior mind.

Real experience of That which is the Truth is only possible with Pistis Sophia.

Nevertheless, the opening of the interior mind and the advent of Sophia is possible only by awakening the Consciousness.


Pistis Sophia is a living experience, manifested as the objective reasoning of the Being."



- Samael Aun Weor, The Pistis Sophia Unveiled




[edit on 24-4-2005 by Tamahu]



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Pistis Sopha???

Pistis Faith.. Sopha ...Wise

Faith in Wisdom.

Hmmmmmm...yes...very femminine..very Gnostic...yes!!!

I dont travel to the East ..up seven steps ..but I know what it means.and can recognize it often and the patterns under which it operates.

I get this same stuff when I read Morals and Dogma here from my private library. I can even get this stuff if I want to laboriously trek through the copy of the Kaballah which I also have, or Hargrave Jennings and his Rosecrusians Their Rites and Mysteries.

Thanks Orangetom



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Peace Orangetom1999


So I take it that you find Gnosis to be interesting, even though it doesn't vibe with your ideas of spirituality?



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Tamahu,
One of the sidelights to my conversion is to learn about counterfits and counterfit systems. Occult..esoteric patterns of thinking. Covert verses Overt.
I am aware of the pattern of the Gnostics..and also of other systems going back to Egypt . Also how many of these system survive unto today.

What I am particularly intrested in is how they are fed to us daily without most people even being aware of it happening. How this thinking and conduct permeate politics and education. And it is there...definitely!!

Thanks Orangetom



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Nobody should get into anything while remaining ignorant of it's true principles, and without seeking the origins of said doctrines.

Each individual should learn the methods of having direct experience of the things taught; as opposed to relying only on the intellect, and emotional attachments.


The latter 'methods' are how judgemental fanatics are born(Sadducees and Pharisees).



posted on May, 9 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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O.K i havent been on this thread for a long time as i thought it had got blocked.
Next i would like to make the point that my spelling isnt really that bad but on the comp(computer sos) i go into techy speak.
Also for some reason i have never done any history b4 'the causes of WWI' as there is a lot of subs in my high school and i miss out almost entire topics.
Now i may have used the wrong word 'debunking' but it got a lot of intrest in my thread although mainly just discussing the word debunking.
Furthermore(I learnt this word in English) Id like to give my point of view on the subject of religion. Im almost an Elohimist but the fact that i believe in evolution I couldnt believe in the Aliens cloned us blah blah. But of how to advance the world is how i think we should go uniting all antions ect.
Finally I would like to thank some of u for proving my point every religion has a saint god act. this shows how it is a almost subconsious response that there must always be something there. More probable is aliens I havent got any calculations but i think it is something liike there should be 300,000 civilizations in the known universe with equal or better technological knowhow. Then the big question(Im getting really off topic here but ive almost finished my little insert) Are we alnoe? Yes if there are others civilizations like aliens or woteva then we will still be alone together no matter how many there are were always alone so we always need something to facilitate this.
Now lastly I would like to say that maybe religion has helped peope but it needs rethnking and unifying into not a religion but more a cult (oh no that word no ill be ridiculed) or organisation with no god promoting peace (not greenpeace) I hope at least one of this reply makes sense (especially gramitaclly how do u spell that?) And can u stop saying ive got a safety blanket I am still classed as a (young) adult but in most my levels i have already reached levels of inteligence beyond most adults. I could take many of my GCSEs right now when Ive just taken my SATs (thats 2 years difference)



posted on May, 9 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by Shenroon
then deny all this creating life- any creature on this planet can create life via sex or cell division.

birds can fly anywhere with enough time we have gone beyond the sky we have touched the moon (with suits on but hey we're gettin beta)

hello we can speak to someone in the australia if we're in the U.K (im english so if your Australailian and reading this then my points been proofed)


Well first off....in Christianity which is the religion you are trying to debunk. The believers believe that God created the heavens and earth out of nothing. Well you certainly arent creating something out of nothing simply by giving birth. The genetic material of both the male and female are required before it all begins. Also God created man in his own image so it is very easy to explain away any parrallels you would draw between our percieved relationship to being a "God".

Secondly, the Bible doesnt claim that God travels from point A to B and takes time to do it. Hes omnipotent or all knowning, hes not just capable of going anywhere he is everywhere at once.

Thirdly, while god may give us the tools or the hints he in no way takes control of our lives and makes us do anything. The bible many times over is a story of free will of choice.


Originally posted by Shenroon
well how would u feel if u found one idea was responsible for more deaths than thwe both of these.
How many people do you think died from the AID epidemic in Africa, how do you think it could have been stopped if they had used contraception. Well who said that they arent aloud the Pope and just as Christianity is spreading through the region.


While the catholic church and some others do believe against birth control. It is wrong to group all Christians into one large lot and say they are responsible for the spread of aids. This is wrong for two reasons, as above stated not all Christian Denominations and Non Denominational Churches believe in this way - actually more do not teach against birth control then those that do. Secondly, AIDs or HIV is not soley spread by sexual contact. Even with birth control its highly likely due to War and the Tragedies there of that this disease would still spread through these communities due to poor hospital standards and the like.

There is substantial evidence in some papers circulating if your interested that AIDs as we know it is a humanly engineered disease spread through the initial vacination of these communities with the Hepatitis B shot. (Might not of been the Hep B but was a similar vacination - at any rate thats off topic.)


Originally posted by Shenroon
Oh and heres some more in the middle ages how many 'enlighened Christians killed witches or supposed ones becaues the church said if they float they're a witch if they dont whoops too late their dead.


No doubt Extremists of many beliefs have been responsible through the ages for the deaths of many. You have Adolf Hitler, Cesear, the Spanish Conquest of Southern Americas, the List goes on. This doesnt debunk Christianity in the least. Its unforunate yes, but it proves nothing in any form. Other then to prove there are sick twisted people in all walks of life.


Originally posted by Shenroon
Finally I would like to thank some of u for proving my point every religion has a saint god act. this shows how it is a almost subconsious response that there must always be something there.


Actually, the same argument could be used to say that it makes just as much sense that because there is this common thread between all these hundreds of different philosophical belief systems in the creation of life, our existence, and the afterlife - that it is likely that intelligent creation exists.



posted on May, 9 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Shenroon,
You must be very young and gotten a huge dose of logic and reason in public school to come up with such winners..No problem. Let me repost some of your material

"Also most religions are like (in the case of Christianity) we are the church do what we say and youll live forever happily. If you dont then youll go to hell and be forever punished. This what we say is like donate money to us even though we already are the richest 'charitable orgnisation' in the world."

"There is a good part to religions though they show mans craving to live a perfect live like the ten commandments allowing everyone to be equal apart from the leaders of the religion of cource they are the people of god."

First off I will tell you that there exists a very abomnable ignorance among many who claim the name of Christian. It sometimes astonishes me ...to hear the rubbish coming out of the mouths of many who claim the name.

The Christian Church is a "organism" not a "organization." The church meets and the church goes home. The church is the assembly..not he priesthood. Every member is a priest unto God...and is to be knowlegable about many things. So many ignorant christians have forgotten this in lieu of the organization.

You will not live happily ever after in this world being a Christian. Not going to happen for the simple reason that you will constantly be bombarded by rubbish trying to enter your life and drag you and your family back into the cesspool that is the world out here. Any church organization that teachs this doctrine about following our rules to be happy is not teaching church doctrine...they are teaching Luciferian doctrine....for the Lord told us that we would be persecuted for following Him.

No Church organization tells me how much or when to donate...not going to happen. Any church organization doing this .I automatically know whom they serve...and it isnt God. We have a obligation to the poor and needy but not to the point of ruination or the glory of the Church Organization.

Oh ..on this topic.....church donations being tax deductable means a tax support for the church by way of the government. In America they like to brag about seperation of church and state. Rubbish...deducting your giving to the church is a tax subsidy to the church....this is not seperation. The churchs and the government are phoneys..in this. Once I understood this ..I ceased to deduct my giving on my taxes. I know several churchs who do not encourage tax deductions to the church. To many churchs in America are filed as government corporations complete with tax numbers. This is not seperation..it is a con job.

As to the ten commandments..yes they still apply. We will not live a perfect life in this body of flesh as the material we are made of is poor material. This applies also to the leaders..they too are not made of good material.
So many people forget this while putting them up on a pedistal.

One more thing Shenroon, the Christian doctrine is that all people ..including Christians deserve to be sent to hell and damnation..no exceptions. Any church once again that doesnt make this clear is also not teaching the Doctrine of the Bible...or God's word.
This knowlege ....leaves man's logic reason and justification totally out of this event...totally. God would be totally justified correct and rightious in sending all of us to hell and damnation. God chooses to save certain people for "His " purposes..not ours.
This is totally contrary to what is taught in most of what passes for Christianity today.
Any attempt by Christians or non christians to change this doctrine falls under the doctrine of the gnostics...of logic and reason and can be traced back to ancient times and the ancient mystery religions....surviving today in different forms from occult to psuedo christian. They are all pharissical in thier belief system. Variations of Hellenic Phariseeism or Judiac Phariseeism..but all hidden ..in doctrine from the bulk of the public.
Dont worry Shenroon..this is not something you will ever learn in public school ..though you get massive doses of it daily. Your postings make this quite clear.


Thanks ,
Orangetom



posted on May, 10 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by Shenroon

, how about the Asian tsunami

How many people do you think died from the AID epidemic in Africa, how do you think it could have been stopped if they had used contraception.




Granted not all new aids cases are from sex. But if people would control themselves and abstain before marriage and remain faithful during marriage(and marriage is one man and one woman) this would help. And to say you can't do that is a copout.

You want to debunk christianity, yet the Bible is where we learn how these problems could be reduced.

Alot of the victims of the tsunami were children. Thankfully there is a God in Heaven who lives, and took them there to be with Him.



posted on May, 10 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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The only conspiracy here, is it is all a conspiracy.

We are all one energy dreaming our own existence. The more egos we layer on, the more dogma we regurgitate, the farther we get from the truth.

The truth is we are only dreaming. Life, to paraphrase Bill Hicks, is just a roller-coaster. Ups and downs and flashing lights diverting our attention.

Whatever your flashing lights are just remember everything is everything else. You are God, Buddha, Allah, everyone and everything. And they are you. Anything which seeks to divide you from the rest of us is not good. Anything which seeks to bind us altogether as one unjudged and loved mass is good.

All belief is subjective, all religion is control.

You have a right to be here, you are a child of the universe. Be happy.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
You are God, Buddha, Allah, everyone and everything.
All belief is subjective, all religion is control.



If I were a "god" I certainly would change some stuff, but my "god" power must not be working right now. This is the problem, too many people think they are God and live life like they want regardless of what the consequences are for themself and others.

There is only one God, and His laws are not to control, but to enhance life and make it the best it can be. There is right and wrong.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
If I were a "god" I certainly would change some stuff


But you are! and you can!



my "god" power must not be working right now


It's okay, all you have to do is to except all is love, we are all one and return to us. We want you back! It must be lonely for people to seperate themselves from infinite love.



This is the problem, too many people think they are God and live life like they want regardless of what the consequences are for themself and others.


So true, I agree 100%.

So many think they themselves are a god of one rather than a part of a god of many, infinitely something greater you would agree.



There is only one God


Indeed, and we are happy.


His laws are not to control, but to enhance life and make it the best it can be.


So true. His/her/our only law is that all laws are control. Applying this one universal law can only enhance everybodies life, as you say.



There is right and wrong.


Not really, only opinions of right and wrong. We are loved and we are love. Nothing more and nothing less.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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First off Shenroon,
Notice my post of earlier on this tread "debunking Christianity"

The point was made....that all of us....especially me deserve hell and damnation. All of us Shenroon. meaning we all deserve death.

Whenever.. I see posts by unbelievers...they like to do as do you ..and post stuff about ...the tsunami...victims ..aids...etc etc etc...and put this all on Gods account.

Unbelievers love to use logic and reason ....the difference being the starting point from which the logic and reason originate. For unbelievers this starting point is ..that we deserve...we are all good people so we deserve the best...we by this virtue hold God accountable...
You see Shenroon ..the Christian doctrine is that we are all bad people....horrible..corrupt..defiled. and we all deserve hell and damnation....death..nothing better.
When a knowlegable Christian looks at the logic and reason of the tsunami..it is that more are not dead..than there are. That mercy was extended at all to those who survived. You see????? totally different starting point for the logic and reason.
Shenroon..what a knowlegable Christian pleads to god for is Mercy...not I deserve this or that...as a starting point. Not pointing the finger at God for not giving me good things that I deserve. Because I dont deserve it ...Shenroon..I deserve death , hell and damnation.


On the logic and reason side..and the situation in Africa....point fingers at the United Nations. They have spend 50 plus years ..twiddling t heir thumbs while Africans kill themselves off by the millions. Even with the aids epidemic...they have done nothing but debate and point fingers at eveyone else..while trying to collect money. Since you dont believe in God and want someone to blame for the "Word Situation" here is a good candidate. You dont seem to mention this ..Shenroon..why is that??
How about historically athiest nations....like Russia or Communist China???
Think about the way they treat their peoples by logic and reason....Remember to thank Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels....for their works on logic and reason ..which have been taken up by governments to justify the killing of millions. You dont seem wont to speak about this Shenroon. REmember..Shenroon...for some ...logic and reason is their religion..its called Gnosticism. Sometimes it is called sophism.
The miracle of aids and the tsunami ..is that more were not killed. Amazing Shenroon..how poor your logic and reason is.
Public schooling has a tendency to do this to us...some of us get out of this kind of thinking.

Thanks ,
Orangetom



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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O.K so some of u r saying that god is merciful because he kills some and not others. So if he kills a parent and leaves a child on his own he is good. Many more could have died yes but many shouldnt have. So if there is a god (which im not saying there is) then he is one evil son of dog. But then maybe if he is real he created us for some sinister purpose like to see how fun it is to kill some and leave others to pick up the pieces. Maybe he loves to give some people the power over others. Maybe he wants people to be in pain and suffering. So is he the god that gave us life so we could go to heaven or an evil force inflicting pain and misery on others(the devil Hitler ect.) So with all these religions preaching god is holy if there is a god they are wrong maybe he was Jesus and wanted to see how guilible people are. But even after this long rant I DONOT BELIEVE.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy

Not really, only opinions of right and wrong. We are loved and we are love. Nothing more and nothing less.



So if there are only opinions of right and wrong then we must allow others to have their opinions. We don't have a right to tell anyone what is right and wrong for them because their opinion may be different. So we should love everyone and bring them into this love?



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
So we should love everyone and bring them into this love?


We should love everyone and hope for nothing in return.





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