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WTC the financial MECCA of the USA
page: 5share:
Actually, Moshe Dayan attacked the village of Khissas first on December the 18th. The Arabs didn't fire the first shot, they got involved three weeks
later.
And before that the Irgun Tsvai Leumi and the Lohamei Herut Israel were fighting the British troops for:
unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.
Both of those are classed as terrorist groups, with Lohamei Herut Israel admitting to it.
Yet again, this is a "Rule for one, Rule for another" policy. These groups conducted terrorist attacks on British Troops. Would it have been fine for us to Destory their Holy Shrines? (Both groups are Jewish)
You need to go check your History and not argue with someone who happens to do History at Oxford. (I can back all of that up with websites and books, if you'd like.)
Also, I did a search on both goggle and Yahoo! and never found any information on ambulances being used by terrorists to attack any Israeli but I did find information on Israel using Ambulances.
www.islamonline.com...
Another case of them breaking the Geneva Convention and nothing being done.
As for the statistics, I'll go through and type up what it shows as soon as I get a chance. (As I disliek the site you used, the fact it's obvious to me it's biased.)
Also they can tell who killed who by the bullets used. The Israeli Army use different weapons to the "terrorists" and the bullets happen to be different.
Also, Israel does target civilians, I've seen enough videos on the BBC of tanks firing into buildings near civilians - when no gun fire was present and nothing was being thrown at the tanks and four kids died from that attack alone. (ON VIDEO)
Israel refuses to accept this.
Another case of "One Rule for us, one Rule for them".
www.palestine-pmc.com...
www.scoop.co.nz...
A lot of these are as bad as what the "terrorists" in Iraq have been doing. So why not bomb a few Jewish Shrines as well?
And before that the Irgun Tsvai Leumi and the Lohamei Herut Israel were fighting the British troops for:
unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.
Both of those are classed as terrorist groups, with Lohamei Herut Israel admitting to it.
Yet again, this is a "Rule for one, Rule for another" policy. These groups conducted terrorist attacks on British Troops. Would it have been fine for us to Destory their Holy Shrines? (Both groups are Jewish)
You need to go check your History and not argue with someone who happens to do History at Oxford. (I can back all of that up with websites and books, if you'd like.)
Also, I did a search on both goggle and Yahoo! and never found any information on ambulances being used by terrorists to attack any Israeli but I did find information on Israel using Ambulances.
The Israeli army uses ambulances vehicles to move troops and weapons in military operations against the Palestinians, a violation of the Geneva Conventions, Israeli sources revealed.
www.islamonline.com...
Another case of them breaking the Geneva Convention and nothing being done.
As for the statistics, I'll go through and type up what it shows as soon as I get a chance. (As I disliek the site you used, the fact it's obvious to me it's biased.)
Also they can tell who killed who by the bullets used. The Israeli Army use different weapons to the "terrorists" and the bullets happen to be different.
Also, Israel does target civilians, I've seen enough videos on the BBC of tanks firing into buildings near civilians - when no gun fire was present and nothing was being thrown at the tanks and four kids died from that attack alone. (ON VIDEO)
Kosirnik French Senate’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee
Speaking with members of the French Senate’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on a visit to the area, Kosirnik said that in his 25 years in the field, he has never experienced such a difficult time as this current point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
He mentioned the four doctors, medics and Palestinian ambulance drivers killed by IDF fire in recent weeks and another 12 who have been wounded, five of them seriously.
He went on to say that he was yet to receive any proof of the IDF claims that the Palestine Red Crescent Society ambulances were being used to smuggle armed activists and he said there was no “terrorist or warrior” among the medical workers who had been killed or injured.
The Fourth Geneva Convention ("GCIV") relates to the protection of civilians during times of war "in the hands" of an enemy and under any occupation by a foreign power. This should not be confused with the more common Third Geneva Convention which deals with the treatment of Prisoners of war. The convention was published on August 12, 1949, at the end of a conference held in Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949. The convention entered into force on October 21, 1950.
Israel refuses to accept this.
Nevertheless, President Bush was quick to blast the Iraqis for showing television footage of the captured American soldiers on Iraqi TV. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that " it's a violation of the Geneva Convention for the Iraqis to be showing prisoners of war in a humiliating manner and needless to say, television that carry such pictures are, I would say doing something that's unfortunate."
Another case of "One Rule for us, one Rule for them".
www.palestine-pmc.com...
Over the years, Israel has habitually tortured innocent Palestinians to extract confessions. Detainees suffer long periods with urine-soaked hoods over their heads, are handcuffed and shackled to posts in painful and suffocating stooped positions, stretched backward over chairs with hands and feet tied to their legs, and they are never permitted the use of a bathroom. Red Cross lawyers and family are not allowed to even contact these prisoners. A number of Palestinian prisoners have died from torture at the hands of Israeli military.
When the question came up in Israel just a few years ago of whether or not the practice of torture should be permitted in the light of international disapproval the courts approved it and the U.S. didn't say a word. When it comes to violations of the Geneva Convention, I guess it's only wrong "unless Israel does it."
But maybe the most shocking of all violations of the Geneva Convention came during the 1967 Israeli war with the Egyptians. The Israeli army carried out a number of mass executions of Egyptian prisoners of war in the Sinai, forcing them to dig ditches, then lining them up and shooting them. Dozens of eyewitnesses to these mass executions have reported what they saw, but the world's politicians and media bosses pretend not to know.
According to eyewitness accounts by Israeli officers and journalists, the Israeli Army - the army that claims to hold itself to a higher moral standard than other armies - executed as many as 1,000 Egyptian prisoners. Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish.
During this reporting period, the Israeli Army has continued to violate the First and Fourth Geneva Conventions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by denying freedom of movement to Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) ambulances and its medical teams, who were threatened by gunfire, humiliated and verbally and physically abused. Delays, denial of access and arbitrary searches had a negative impact on the sick and the wounded in Nablus, Qalqilia and Tubas.
...
These incidents constitute a breach of articles 19, 24 and 25 of the First Geneva Convention, which guarantees the protection of medical units, establishments and personnel, as well as articles 27, 55 and 56 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which calls for the protection of civilians.
www.scoop.co.nz...
A lot of these are as bad as what the "terrorists" in Iraq have been doing. So why not bomb a few Jewish Shrines as well?
Shalom JudahMaccabbi!
Very nice to meet you, and I'm very happy that we can discuss this issue together.
Thank you very much for responding.
Ok my intention for posting originally, I would like to point out, I was just giving the Muslim side only.
I did this to show how muslims are looking at the west.
My intention was so that we could learn more about each other.
The only way to solve problems and breakdown misconceptions is to show how each side feels.
Its a bit of a psychological aproach, however I'm not coming here to solve the worlds problems. I see this as a great oppurtunity to get to know some other human beings.
Just looking at all of you, you're all from different countries, you all have wide range of beliefs, outlooks on life, which is something hard to find everyday.
So this is a great place to share our opinions together.
Now that I've got that out of the way, I want to also point out, that I was in no way trying to be bias.
My original post was to give you an idea of the typical mindset in middle eastern countries.
Judah you claim that nukes were not used against the Germans during WW2, but you forget that nukes were used against Japan.
Now as a jew you know Nazi's systematically killed 6 million jews, and you know that they were expelled from many european countries.
Just look at the amount of anti-semitism across europe.
You don't mention that when Spain was under the control of muslims, jews lived happily there, and prospered there.
They worked alongside the muslims in harmony and shaped the modern world.
When the muslims were defeated and the country was back to Christian rule the remaining jews were either killed or fled across the world.
They were literally stabbed to death and had their stomachs opened incase they were hiding anything of value within them.
Even your own sources will confirm this truth:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
What about when the jews were in England?
Richard the Lion Hearted under his rule jews were pelted by mobs and denied entry because of their wealth.
The ones who managed to live in England were either killed in riots or had their houses burnt down.
During the third crusade two whole jewish communities were wiped out.
Many of the warriors were in debt to the jews, so they ended up slaughtering them and robbing them.
The rest were besieged when they fled, after knowing that they would die they decided to take their own lives.
King John Imprisoned all jews, took all their money and tortured them.
Henry III taxed all the jews which caused many of them to leave.
Jews were also made to wear badges of shame their size was later expanded to 6x3.
The crusaders of that time were becoming less determined to go off to the "holy land" to kill infidels because they had a bigger problem to deal with right now which is the jewish problem.
What about the accusations of blood libel stories that were circulating around?
Edward I, finally expelled the jews from England and any jew left would be killed.
Again just to confirm that I am not making this up:
fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk...
Now these are just examples of anti-semitism that we see throughtout the West.
In modern times some arab countries are expelling jews from their countries. And jews are being blamed for alot of things.
There is alot of anti-semitic ideas circulating around.
But this is a direct result of the palestinian issue.
Muslims don't have anything against jews, and those that do are the ignorant ones.
What is happening right now in the Arab world is a modern Phenomena.
If you look throughtout history you will rarely see any Arab-jew problems arising.
Jews are even regarded as close relatives of Arabs.
We as muslims don't eat pork just like yourselves, we get circumcised just like yourselves, we don't eat blood or touch it just like yourselves.
We say 'Al Salam Alaikum' (Peace be with you), you say ''Salam Alechem' or "Shalom Alechem".
Now that I have mentioned all of this, I want to say that there is a difference between Judaism and Zionism.
Zionism has no roots in Judaism and there jewish organisations that speak out against it:
www.gush-shalom.org...
www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org...
www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
www.nkusa.org...
www.jewsnotzionists.org...
Now with the amount of anti-semitism that I have pointed out that took place mostly in the West. Why are muslims now the "enemy"?
Why is threatening to nuke Mecca which means everything to the muslims a good way to scare us into submission?
This is the master-slave dialogue we're having here.
For America to bomb an undeveloped country like Afghanistan, is like an adult breaking a child's nose because he happened to give him a bloody nose.
Now I can answer some of your questions which hardly need answering because they're only looking at the negative aspects of whats happening at the moment.
What you have to realise anyway is that muslims are going through many tribulations, and they were once great people who are now reduced nothingness.
They are still in a state shock and haven't woken up since.
But slowly don't despair the muslim world is waking up and we just need time to get stuff together.
First of all the blood libel stories originated from the West, the reason they are being echoed is because at the moment muslims are in a state of humiliation.
Spreading this sort of message teaches them to look elsewhere, whereas their problem lies in their own government.
However this sort of propaganda has been spreading since the foundation of the state of Israel, which many Palestinians were expelled from their homes.
Saudi Arabia is not a perfect example of a muslim country even if it fancies itself with that description.
Many Arab countries are governed by dictatorships, and yes there has come a time when citizens have tried to revolt.
The Shia's tried to revolt in Iraq, so did the Kurd's who were gassed, George Bush Senior later reversed his decision to help them after encouraging them to take action.
Even in Iran there was a revolution which overthrew the Shah.
There was also a student revolt which demanded that political prisoners be released.
What you have to realise is that this is a humiliating defeat.
However many Iraqi's are glad Saddam is gone, but they don't trust the Americans are here to help them.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that America doesn't have that much love for the middle east, and I think the feeling is pretty mutual in some sense if we're going to assume that the people involved are all extremists.
You can even see the amount of bad press muslims get in the news, or the amount of bias in hollywood movies.
Why the change of heart now? We know where the weapons of mass destruction are, they are in Korea, China, Russia, America, England, Israel...
I believe at the moment that should be peoples concern.
Had it not been for the oil, (which you claim Saudi Arabia should be nuked for if they withheld it or raised their prices) then there wouldn't be an interest in invading Iraq.
Now don't start looking at what the most ignorant muslims are doing, these don't speak for muslims as a whole and they are not the masses.
They never formed the masses.
What is happening in the muslim world is extremely sad at the moment, but I don't want it to lead to civil war.
Muslims fellows and I are trying to educate fellow muslims, the only way we can combat ignorance is with education.
Like I said this is already taking place in the muslim world, so we as muslims shouldn't despair, just give us time.
Judge us by our best specimens not our worse.
This is just one of the many muslim scholars who is becoming very famous amongst muslims, if you want a real taste of islam read what this man has to say. NOT extremist groups like Mujhadin:
www.harunyahya.com...
Hamza Yusuf is also a great American man who embraced Islam who is also teaching many the real teachings of islam.
So please judge us by these peoples actions, these extremists have no future and we are working slowly to extinguish the flames of vengeance.
Infact Hamas has a following in Palestine. Al queda has a very small following, just compare it to the 1 billion muslim population.
Infact why didn't you mention "the islamic brotherhood"? Which were all rounded up in Egypt and imprisoned or deported.
In Turkey (where I'm originally from) take extreme action against extremists and they are even allies with Israel and America.
Saudi Arabia is also allies with America. What is so special about them? Nothing except that they have oil.
As for Hizballah, they have a big following in lebanon and are financially aided by Iran.
Yes but they aren't as extreme as the other two parties you have pointed out, and they rarely kidnap civilians, they mostly target military targets.
Which is why alot of people see them as freedom fighters.
Even an Israeli soldier who was detained said that they treated him well:
www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/Printer&cid=1075349815518&p=1078397702269
Again don't judge us by our worst specimen and the site you have quoted is blatantly Anti-islamic bias.
Which also comes from an extremist website which is dedicated in instilling fear in the hearts of ordinary people.
This persons roots don't even go back that far and he already identifies himself as American already. And even goes as far as to say "we".
This is nothing but the same rap you hear from extremists Muslims who say that "America wants to westernise you and take over the world".
No my friend in no way did I say that, thats just an excuse used by extremists.
Show me where I said that 911 was a direct result of the palestine-Israel conflict.
Although I did say that this is one of the major problems that hasn't been addressed properly.
Inshalllah (God willing) I will discuss this topic in more detail next time I post, because its a very complicated topic and I have to do justice to the topic.
Although this is already taking up alot of my time, which I have used up just to make my point.
Did I say Israel is the only country that recieves financial aid?
No, I simply stated is was one of the countries that recieves financial aid from the US.
Here are some facts and figures:
www.wrmea.com...
From 1949 -1997 Israel has cost American Tax Payers $84,854,827,200
Egypt recieves financial aid because it has made peace with Israel and they are also heavily in debt at the moment.
As for Afghanistan its literally controlled by America and so is Iraq now.
So that money is not really considered financial aid.
How much did the US spend on Military then?
What about the America companies that are being estabilished there and who's hands is Iraqi oil in now?
Now I won't go on to bad mouth the US anymore, because I know many Americans are clearly seeing these lies themselves.
They are not stupid people, and many people demonstrated against this war.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Take care of yourself and may God bless you.
Very nice to meet you, and I'm very happy that we can discuss this issue together.
Thank you very much for responding.
Ok my intention for posting originally, I would like to point out, I was just giving the Muslim side only.
I did this to show how muslims are looking at the west.
My intention was so that we could learn more about each other.
The only way to solve problems and breakdown misconceptions is to show how each side feels.
Its a bit of a psychological aproach, however I'm not coming here to solve the worlds problems. I see this as a great oppurtunity to get to know some other human beings.
Just looking at all of you, you're all from different countries, you all have wide range of beliefs, outlooks on life, which is something hard to find everyday.
So this is a great place to share our opinions together.
Now that I've got that out of the way, I want to also point out, that I was in no way trying to be bias.
My original post was to give you an idea of the typical mindset in middle eastern countries.
Judah you claim that nukes were not used against the Germans during WW2, but you forget that nukes were used against Japan.
Now as a jew you know Nazi's systematically killed 6 million jews, and you know that they were expelled from many european countries.
Just look at the amount of anti-semitism across europe.
You don't mention that when Spain was under the control of muslims, jews lived happily there, and prospered there.
They worked alongside the muslims in harmony and shaped the modern world.
When the muslims were defeated and the country was back to Christian rule the remaining jews were either killed or fled across the world.
They were literally stabbed to death and had their stomachs opened incase they were hiding anything of value within them.
Even your own sources will confirm this truth:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
What about when the jews were in England?
Richard the Lion Hearted under his rule jews were pelted by mobs and denied entry because of their wealth.
The ones who managed to live in England were either killed in riots or had their houses burnt down.
During the third crusade two whole jewish communities were wiped out.
Many of the warriors were in debt to the jews, so they ended up slaughtering them and robbing them.
The rest were besieged when they fled, after knowing that they would die they decided to take their own lives.
King John Imprisoned all jews, took all their money and tortured them.
Henry III taxed all the jews which caused many of them to leave.
Jews were also made to wear badges of shame their size was later expanded to 6x3.
The crusaders of that time were becoming less determined to go off to the "holy land" to kill infidels because they had a bigger problem to deal with right now which is the jewish problem.
What about the accusations of blood libel stories that were circulating around?
Edward I, finally expelled the jews from England and any jew left would be killed.
Again just to confirm that I am not making this up:
fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk...
Now these are just examples of anti-semitism that we see throughtout the West.
In modern times some arab countries are expelling jews from their countries. And jews are being blamed for alot of things.
There is alot of anti-semitic ideas circulating around.
But this is a direct result of the palestinian issue.
Muslims don't have anything against jews, and those that do are the ignorant ones.
What is happening right now in the Arab world is a modern Phenomena.
If you look throughtout history you will rarely see any Arab-jew problems arising.
Jews are even regarded as close relatives of Arabs.
We as muslims don't eat pork just like yourselves, we get circumcised just like yourselves, we don't eat blood or touch it just like yourselves.
We say 'Al Salam Alaikum' (Peace be with you), you say ''Salam Alechem' or "Shalom Alechem".
Now that I have mentioned all of this, I want to say that there is a difference between Judaism and Zionism.
Zionism has no roots in Judaism and there jewish organisations that speak out against it:
www.gush-shalom.org...
www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org...
www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
www.nkusa.org...
www.jewsnotzionists.org...
Now with the amount of anti-semitism that I have pointed out that took place mostly in the West. Why are muslims now the "enemy"?
Why is threatening to nuke Mecca which means everything to the muslims a good way to scare us into submission?
This is the master-slave dialogue we're having here.
For America to bomb an undeveloped country like Afghanistan, is like an adult breaking a child's nose because he happened to give him a bloody nose.
Now I can answer some of your questions which hardly need answering because they're only looking at the negative aspects of whats happening at the moment.
What you have to realise anyway is that muslims are going through many tribulations, and they were once great people who are now reduced nothingness.
They are still in a state shock and haven't woken up since.
But slowly don't despair the muslim world is waking up and we just need time to get stuff together.
But a culture were public executions occur, where political/religious leaders spread blatant lies meant to demonize another religion or a culture (blood libel against the Jews which is again being echoed by the Saudis) and where you are forced to conform to that nations ideals or you are terrorized (all the Dictatoral regimes)
First of all the blood libel stories originated from the West, the reason they are being echoed is because at the moment muslims are in a state of humiliation.
Spreading this sort of message teaches them to look elsewhere, whereas their problem lies in their own government.
However this sort of propaganda has been spreading since the foundation of the state of Israel, which many Palestinians were expelled from their homes.
Saudi Arabia is not a perfect example of a muslim country even if it fancies itself with that description.
Many Arab countries are governed by dictatorships, and yes there has come a time when citizens have tried to revolt.
The Shia's tried to revolt in Iraq, so did the Kurd's who were gassed, George Bush Senior later reversed his decision to help them after encouraging them to take action.
Even in Iran there was a revolution which overthrew the Shah.
There was also a student revolt which demanded that political prisoners be released.
ARe you suggesting the insurgents in Iraq are fighting off the Americans because the US invaded their country? I believe most of the insurgents fall into the followinig categories:
1-Baath Party loyalists who would like to show that rule under them only provided stability and safety. Hence, they orchestrate terrorist attrocities relentlessly.
2-Foreign Mujhadin type fighters who are there out of religious obligation to fight off the Americans. These fighters are fundamentalists who not even Iraqi but are part of the Imperialist Muslims whose ambitions are to form an Caliphate on Islamic lands (which would include Israel, Spain and all lands that historically at one point or another where under Mulsim rule).
3- Foreign fighters loyal to Syria, Iran and possibly other Arab countries who would like to see the US failing in their DEMOCRATIZATION of the middle east.
What you have to realise is that this is a humiliating defeat.
However many Iraqi's are glad Saddam is gone, but they don't trust the Americans are here to help them.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that America doesn't have that much love for the middle east, and I think the feeling is pretty mutual in some sense if we're going to assume that the people involved are all extremists.
You can even see the amount of bad press muslims get in the news, or the amount of bias in hollywood movies.
Why the change of heart now? We know where the weapons of mass destruction are, they are in Korea, China, Russia, America, England, Israel...
I believe at the moment that should be peoples concern.
Had it not been for the oil, (which you claim Saudi Arabia should be nuked for if they withheld it or raised their prices) then there wouldn't be an interest in invading Iraq.
Now don't start looking at what the most ignorant muslims are doing, these don't speak for muslims as a whole and they are not the masses.
They never formed the masses.
What is happening in the muslim world is extremely sad at the moment, but I don't want it to lead to civil war.
Muslims fellows and I are trying to educate fellow muslims, the only way we can combat ignorance is with education.
Like I said this is already taking place in the muslim world, so we as muslims shouldn't despair, just give us time.
Judge us by our best specimens not our worse.
This is just one of the many muslim scholars who is becoming very famous amongst muslims, if you want a real taste of islam read what this man has to say. NOT extremist groups like Mujhadin:
www.harunyahya.com...
Hamza Yusuf is also a great American man who embraced Islam who is also teaching many the real teachings of islam.
So please judge us by these peoples actions, these extremists have no future and we are working slowly to extinguish the flames of vengeance.
And how about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-qaida and Hezbullah? They have a HUGE following.
Infact Hamas has a following in Palestine. Al queda has a very small following, just compare it to the 1 billion muslim population.
Infact why didn't you mention "the islamic brotherhood"? Which were all rounded up in Egypt and imprisoned or deported.
In Turkey (where I'm originally from) take extreme action against extremists and they are even allies with Israel and America.
Saudi Arabia is also allies with America. What is so special about them? Nothing except that they have oil.
As for Hizballah, they have a big following in lebanon and are financially aided by Iran.
Yes but they aren't as extreme as the other two parties you have pointed out, and they rarely kidnap civilians, they mostly target military targets.
Which is why alot of people see them as freedom fighters.
Even an Israeli soldier who was detained said that they treated him well:
www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/Printer&cid=1075349815518&p=1078397702269
I've heard of Muslim organizations who intend on using that freedom to Islamify the US. I know this may be smoe paranoia in this but would still ike some feedback on this from you.
www.worldnetdaily.com...
wnd.com...
Again don't judge us by our worst specimen and the site you have quoted is blatantly Anti-islamic bias.
Which also comes from an extremist website which is dedicated in instilling fear in the hearts of ordinary people.
Anis Shorrosh, author of ''Islam Revealed'' and ''The True Furqan,'' is a Christian Arab-American who emigrated from Arab-controlled Jerusalem in January 1967.
''Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?''
This persons roots don't even go back that far and he already identifies himself as American already. And even goes as far as to say "we".
This is nothing but the same rap you hear from extremists Muslims who say that "America wants to westernise you and take over the world".
Are you tryin gto tell me that Saudis and Pakistanis in 9/11 attacked the WTC because of the Palestinians plight?
I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be resolved and that it is getting worse but not because the US, Israel or the Europeans are not trying.
No my friend in no way did I say that, thats just an excuse used by extremists.
Show me where I said that 911 was a direct result of the palestine-Israel conflict.
Although I did say that this is one of the major problems that hasn't been addressed properly.
So now the bias peeps out of the woodwork. Targeting Jewish children in a bus, bus-stop and religious celebrations is not injustice? Running an ongoing campaign of terror in parallel to feigning 'peace talks' is not injustice? Committing to agreements and reneging on them consistently (as the PLO did with Israel from 1993 to the present day and Lebanon from the early 1970 to the mid 1980s) is not injustice?
Inshalllah (God willing) I will discuss this topic in more detail next time I post, because its a very complicated topic and I have to do justice to the topic.
Although this is already taking up alot of my time, which I have used up just to make my point.
Actually Iraq receives more financial aid in one year than Israel received in more than 5 years, in addition Afghanistan and Egypt receives a very large aid package.
Did I say Israel is the only country that recieves financial aid?
No, I simply stated is was one of the countries that recieves financial aid from the US.
Here are some facts and figures:
www.wrmea.com...
From 1949 -1997 Israel has cost American Tax Payers $84,854,827,200
Egypt recieves financial aid because it has made peace with Israel and they are also heavily in debt at the moment.
As for Afghanistan its literally controlled by America and so is Iraq now.
So that money is not really considered financial aid.
How much did the US spend on Military then?
What about the America companies that are being estabilished there and who's hands is Iraqi oil in now?
Now I won't go on to bad mouth the US anymore, because I know many Americans are clearly seeing these lies themselves.
They are not stupid people, and many people demonstrated against this war.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Take care of yourself and may God bless you.
"Isa (عيسى ) is the Islamic name for Jesus, who is considered to be one of the Prophets of Islam in the Qur'an. Christian Arabs refer to Jesus
as Yasu' al-Masih (يسوع المسيح). Isa and Jesus are both most likely derived from the Latin Iesus, which in turn comes from the Greek
Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs). The Greek form is a transliteration of the Aramaic name Yeshua (ישוע), a short form of Hebrew Yehoshua (יהושע).
This is the name by which Moses called his successor as leader of the Israelites, known in English as Joshua; it means 'the Lord is salvation', or
literally 'Yahweh saves'. A small minority hold that Isa is related to the biblical Esau, but this is less likely given the name's indisputably
strong link with Joshua."
That'd be why there are so many Muslims in Bethlehem. It kind of makes sense as to why they out number Christians if you look into it.
That'd be why there are so many Muslims in Bethlehem. It kind of makes sense as to why they out number Christians if you look into it.
colin_hal,
That does seem to be true, up until recent events, Muslims had a much better track record for tolerance/acceptance of Jews than did Christians. The Islamic world has no historical counterpart to the various pogroms by Christians against Jews, at least that I am aware of.
Widespread intolerance of Jews by Muslims seems to be mostly a recent development, a reaction to Zionism in the twentieth century. Sadly ironic that just as the late John Paul II finally renounced and condemned Catholic anti-semitism after centuries of naked hostility, now it is Islamic radicals fomenting hatred of Jews, despite passages in the Quran that I believe specifically call upon Muslims to be tolerant of Jews.
All traceable to the foundadtion of the modern state of Israel, which is itself more or less a direct consequence of European persecution of the Jews. Tragedy compounding tragedy, this seems to be the way of the world, unfortunately.
[edit on 16-4-2005 by xmotex]
That does seem to be true, up until recent events, Muslims had a much better track record for tolerance/acceptance of Jews than did Christians. The Islamic world has no historical counterpart to the various pogroms by Christians against Jews, at least that I am aware of.
Widespread intolerance of Jews by Muslims seems to be mostly a recent development, a reaction to Zionism in the twentieth century. Sadly ironic that just as the late John Paul II finally renounced and condemned Catholic anti-semitism after centuries of naked hostility, now it is Islamic radicals fomenting hatred of Jews, despite passages in the Quran that I believe specifically call upon Muslims to be tolerant of Jews.
All traceable to the foundadtion of the modern state of Israel, which is itself more or less a direct consequence of European persecution of the Jews. Tragedy compounding tragedy, this seems to be the way of the world, unfortunately.
[edit on 16-4-2005 by xmotex]
Originally posted by Odium
Actually, Moshe Dayan attacked the village of Khissas first on December the 18th. The Arabs didn't fire the first shot, they got involved three weeks later.
The Israeli war of independance broke out immediately after Israel's Declaration of Independance in May 15, 1948. You are refering to something that happened in December 18, 1947 half a year before the war of independence broke out!
The incident you are refering to was a tit-for-tat reprisal operation that was 'customary' at the time on both sides. The Arabs did much of the same.
And before that the Irgun Tsvai Leumi and the Lohamei Herut Israel were fighting the British troops for:
unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.
Both of those are classed as terrorist groups, with Lohamei Herut Israel admitting to it.
Yet again, this is a "Rule for one, Rule for another" policy. These groups conducted terrorist attacks on British Troops. Would it have been fine for us to Destory their Holy Shrines? (Both groups are Jewish)
Did they engage in massive megaterror tactics? No. Zionists at the time were by the vast majority Secular and not religious then threatening their shrine would not cause a deterent force. IN addition terrorism is the targeting of civilians as a strategy for political gain. The attacks against military british targets do not make these organization terrorist organziations but Guerilla groups.
You need to go check your History and not argue with someone who happens to do History at Oxford. (I can back all of that up with websites and books, if you'd like.)
How is my response as HISTORY for you. I do not do history at oxford but as an Israeli American I do know what my family went through from first hand experience as well as from reading up on the issues out of interest.
Also, I did a search on both goggle and Yahoo! and never found any information on ambulances being used by terrorists to attack any Israeli but I did find information on Israel using Ambulances.
Look up June 10, 2002 in www.adl.org...
and the info in:
www.ujc.org...
The Israeli army uses ambulances vehicles to move troops and weapons in military operations against the Palestinians, a violation of the Geneva Conventions, Israeli sources revealed.
www.islamonline.com...
The army uses on rare occations medical helicopters to move troops in a fire zone since these helicopters are highly armored. THat was the issue thatr was discussed in that station and not as stated in that website.
It is funny how you find only what you want to find.
As for the statistics, I'll go through and type up what it shows as soon as I get a chance. (As I disliek the site you used, the fact it's obvious to me it's biased.)
Also they can tell who killed who by the bullets used. The Israeli Army use different weapons to the "terrorists" and the bullets happen to be different.
Wrong Palestinians terrorists are outfitted with M-16, M-4 and other weapons Israelis use. Some of these were provided by Israel to the Palestinians "security forces" who joined the terrorist movements and others where stolen or sold to Palestinains by terrorists and criminal elements.
I will respond to the rest later.
Originally posted by xmotex
colin_hal,
That does seem to be true, up until recent events, Muslims had a much better track record for tolerance/acceptance of Jews than did Christians. The Islamic world has no historical counterpart to the various pogroms by Christians against Jews, at least that I am aware of.
Tihs is untrue, in the 1830s the Jews of Mashhad Iran were forced into conversion, over 30 killed and many escaped Mashhad, most of the Jews converted but in secrecy continued in their Jewish practices for a century before returning to Judaism. I know this since my ancestry were Mashhadi Jews who escaped this POGROM to Afghanistan and then to what is now Uzbekistan.
Other persecutions are summarized here:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...(gen).html
Even the yellow badge the Nazis placed on the Jews had was a Muslim act imposed on the Jews.
Jews in the Muslims countries like the rest of the world had its better and worst times.
colin_hal I will respond to your post soon.
[edited for Spelyng by JudahMaccabbi]
[edit on 17/4/05 by JudahMaccabbi]
Originally posted by colin_hal
Shalom JudahMaccabbi!
Very nice to meet you, and I'm very happy that we can discuss this issue together.
Thank you very much for responding.
Ok my intention for posting originally, I would like to point out, I was just giving the Muslim side only.
I did this to show how muslims are looking at the west.
My intention was so that we could learn more about each other.
The only way to solve problems and breakdown misconceptions is to show how each side feels.
Salaam to you as well. I am sure there is much misconceptions on both sides and much bridging that needs to be done.
Judah you claim that nukes were not used against the Germans during WW2, but you forget that nukes were used against Japan.
Now as a jew you know Nazi's systematically killed 6 million jews, and you know that they were expelled from many european countries.
Just look at the amount of anti-semitism across europe.
You don't mention that when Spain was under the control of muslims, jews lived happily there, and prospered there.
They worked alongside the muslims in harmony and shaped the modern world.
When the muslims were defeated and the country was back to Christian rule the remaining jews were either killed or fled across the world.
They were literally stabbed to death and had their stomachs opened incase they were hiding anything of value within them.
I know of the persecution of the Jews in Europe. I know of the Anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe to this day. I also know that Jews enjoyed various freedoms in Islamic countries. This is common knowledge. Islam was a beacon of light at the time that Europe was in in its 'Dark-Ages'. My fear is that Islam is now going into that phase. Jews were not always treated well under Islamic rule and I contributed a link in a previous post in this respect.
That is why Israel must continue to exist. Jews can never rely on other countries or religions for their well-being. Israel must be strong and viable in order to make sure that no such persecution take place again against the Jews. If tomorrow France will decide to persecute Jews there will be a country to escape to - Israel. Jews did not have this luxury previously.
In modern times some arab countries are expelling jews from their countries. And jews are being blamed for alot of things.
There is alot of anti-semitic ideas circulating around.
But this is a direct result of the palestinian issue.
Muslims don't have anything against jews, and those that do are the ignorant ones.
What is happening right now in the Arab world is a modern Phenomena.
If you look throughtout history you will rarely see any Arab-jew problems arising.
Jews are even regarded as close relatives of Arabs.
Please respond to my previous posts on this since I bring my story and these cases were prior to Zionism. I can bring you more examples as well.
We as muslims don't eat pork just like yourselves, we get circumcised just like yourselves, we don't eat blood or touch it just like yourselves.
We say 'Al Salam Alaikum' (Peace be with you), you say ''Salam Alechem' or "Shalom Alechem".
The truth is that when Jews refer to Arabs in Israel they call them 'our cousins'. We are both Semites and have similar languages. This is common knowledge.
Now that I have mentioned all of this, I want to say that there is a difference between Judaism and Zionism.
Zionism has no roots in Judaism and there jewish organisations that speak out against it:
www.gush-shalom.org...
www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org...
www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
www.nkusa.org...
www.jewsnotzionists.org...
No really. Gush-Shalom is a secular group of left wing fanatics. I happen to know one of the members and I know for a fact that that person has serious mental issues.
Others are ultra-ultra-orthodox Jews (Satmar, Netuli-Karta) who are fanatic in their religious belief. Mainstream Jews tend to be more zionist and there are many Religious zionists who are not as fanatical as the previous mentioned groups. You are wrong to say that Zionism has no roots in Judaism. There are many prophecies that refer to the phenomena of the gathering from the Diaspora as occurs in modern times. Zionism is not a Jewish phenomena either. There are many Christian Zionists and a small group of Muslim zionists as well.
Of course Zionism is an ISM and has its negative and positive sides.
Now with the amount of anti-semitism that I have pointed out that took place mostly in the West. Why are muslims now the "enemy"?
Why is threatening to nuke Mecca which means everything to the muslims a good way to scare us into submission?
We are not scareing you into submission but rather it is Fundamental Islam that is trying to scare the Western world into submission by attacking its symbols.
For America to bomb an undeveloped country like Afghanistan, is like an adult breaking a child's nose because he happened to give him a bloody nose.
America liberated Afghanistan from a treacherous regime. America is giving a huge amount of aid to that country to rebuild it. Of course there will be conflict there. Afghanis need to get accustomed to a new situation, a new reality - this will take time.
Now I can answer some of your questions which hardly need answering because they're only looking at the negative aspects of whats happening at the moment.
What you have to realise anyway is that muslims are going through many tribulations, and they were once great people who are now reduced nothingness.
They are still in a state shock and haven't woken up since.
But slowly don't despair the muslim world is waking up and we just need time to get stuff together.
This reminds me of Germany following WWI.
Fundamental Muslims will need to spiritually 'grow-up' and learn to accept those who are different from them to once again become that great culture that they once were.
But a culture were public executions occur, where political/religious leaders spread blatant lies meant to demonize another religion or a culture (blood libel against the Jews which is again being echoed by the Saudis) and where you are forced to conform to that nations ideals or you are terrorized (all the Dictatoral regimes)
First of all the blood libel stories originated from the West, the reason they are being echoed is because at the moment muslims are in a state of humiliation.
Spreading this sort of message teaches them to look elsewhere, whereas their problem lies in their own government.
However this sort of propaganda has been spreading since the foundation of the state of Israel, which many Palestinians were expelled from their homes.
The blood libel was repeated in 1840 by the Syrians long before Zionism and recently as well in Syria and Saudi Arabia.
ARe you suggesting the insurgents in Iraq are fighting off the Americans because the US invaded their country? I believe most of the insurgents fall into the followinig categories:
1-Baath Party loyalists who would like to show that rule under them only provided stability and safety. Hence, they orchestrate terrorist attrocities relentlessly.
2-Foreign Mujhadin type fighters who are there out of religious obligation to fight off the Americans. These fighters are fundamentalists who not even Iraqi but are part of the Imperialist Muslims whose ambitions are to form an Caliphate on Islamic lands (which would include Israel, Spain and all lands that historically at one point or another where under Mulsim rule).
3- Foreign fighters loyal to Syria, Iran and possibly other Arab countries who would like to see the US failing in their DEMOCRATIZATION of the middle east.
What you have to realise is that this is a humiliating defeat.
However many Iraqi's are glad Saddam is gone, but they don't trust the Americans are here to help them.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that America doesn't have that much love for the middle east, and I think the feeling is pretty mutual in some sense if we're going to assume that the people involved are all extremists.
You can even see the amount of bad press muslims get in the news, or the amount of bias in hollywood movies.
Why the change of heart now? We know where the weapons of mass destruction are, they are in Korea, China, Russia, America, England, Israel...
I believe at the moment that should be peoples concern.
Had it not been for the oil, (which you claim Saudi Arabia should be nuked for if they withheld it or raised their prices) then there wouldn't be an interest in invading Iraq.
First, I did not say they should be nuked under that condition but bombed (not nuked) under a combination of conditions where the Islamic world should choose to destabilize the western world and where the repercussions of bombing that shrine would not be much different then the state of conditions during that time.
I believe that we are going to war sooner or later if serious changes do not occur in the collective psyche of the Fundamentalist muslims.
Now don't start looking at what the most ignorant muslims are doing, these don't speak for muslims as a whole and they are not the masses.
They never formed the masses.
Can you provide evidence for this - Its not that I don't believe you but I would like to see a poll conducted in a major mulsim country that says that Muslims do not want a caliphate, do not want to destroy the US and Israel and wish to have peace. I think it would be difficult since most live in dictatorships and are brain-washed to hate the west and Jews.
What is happening in the muslim world is extremely sad at the moment, but I don't want it to lead to civil war.
Muslims fellows and I are trying to educate fellow muslims, the only way we can combat ignorance is with education.
Like I said this is already taking place in the muslim world, so we as muslims shouldn't despair, just give us time.
Political pressure needs to be placed on the Arab world to become democratic and to strike hatered from the national agenda. Hey, isn't that what Bush is pushing for????
Judge us by our best specimens not our worse.
I only fear that the best specimens are a small minority. I'm not talking about Al-qaida but about the average Arab/Muslim who when asked what do you think about the West, Israel or Bush he would not reply with a hate speech he picked up from his Imam. That is my main problem.
This is just one of the many muslim scholars who is becoming very famous amongst muslims, if you want a real taste of islam read what this man has to say. NOT extremist groups like Mujhadin:
www.harunyahya.com...
I will. In hope to learn somthing new that will give me hope.
And how about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-qaida and Hezbullah? They have a HUGE following.
Infact Hamas has a following in Palestine. Al queda has a very small following, just compare it to the 1 billion muslim population.
Infact why didn't you mention "the islamic brotherhood"? Which were all rounded up in Egypt and imprisoned or deported.
In Turkey (where I'm originally from) take extreme action against extremists and they are even allies with Israel and America.
Saudi Arabia is also allies with America. What is so special about them? Nothing except that they have oil.
As for Hizballah, they have a big following in lebanon and are financially aided by Iran.
Yes but they aren't as extreme as the other two parties you have pointed out, and they rarely kidnap civilians, they mostly target military targets.
Which is why alot of people see them as freedom fighters.
In all, I respect you honesty but Hizbullah targeted many civilians. I will get into this later as well as the rest of you post.
You seem to be one that I can talk too without the masks and the ego.
JuddahMaccabi before I post more concerning this topic, or you reply to all of what I have written.
I would like to say that before I posted I got a really bad impression about you, that you were hell bent on destroying muslim lives and creating more conflicts in the Middle East.
From what you have written I have already learned alot.
And I hope you have learned something from me.
However I will ellaborate on the other issues once you have had your chance to reply.
Thank you for engaging in a grown up conversation, and you seem to have some misconceptions that I have hopefully cleared. Also I seem to have had some misconceptions prior which you have successfully cleared in my mind.
Another forum member has sent me a PM thanking me for using this sort of approach, and I thank you for responding to me in a good manner.
And in no way belittling me or my beliefs. I only hope I have done the same.
Thank you, thats all I want to say for now, I believe there's still more you want to write, so I will step back for now.
I would like to say that before I posted I got a really bad impression about you, that you were hell bent on destroying muslim lives and creating more conflicts in the Middle East.
From what you have written I have already learned alot.
And I hope you have learned something from me.
However I will ellaborate on the other issues once you have had your chance to reply.
Thank you for engaging in a grown up conversation, and you seem to have some misconceptions that I have hopefully cleared. Also I seem to have had some misconceptions prior which you have successfully cleared in my mind.
Another forum member has sent me a PM thanking me for using this sort of approach, and I thank you for responding to me in a good manner.
And in no way belittling me or my beliefs. I only hope I have done the same.
Thank you, thats all I want to say for now, I believe there's still more you want to write, so I will step back for now.
Sorry to inform you, but both those groups I mentioned were terrorist groups. One has even admitted it. You refuse to admit that they are?
So when a Jewish person fights for his freedom by ambushing British troops it's guerilla warfare but when a muslim does it, it's terrorism. I like that.
dictionary.reference.com...
"One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
Good word that is.
Sorry to inform you, but Israel has used terror based activities, it started from terrorist groups, it still uses them now. It breaks international law, over and over again - yet that's fine.
Grow up. Look at the facts, Israel A)started the war B)conducted in terrorist activities and c)the British troops never gave them the land under the deal we wanted.
(Which by the way would have been; international control of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and a few other key places. So both sides could visit their religious shrines. International Police patrolling the borders, with neither side having an army only a police force to protect their own land and then we get attacked for it...)
So when a Jewish person fights for his freedom by ambushing British troops it's guerilla warfare but when a muslim does it, it's terrorism. I like that.
dictionary.reference.com...
"One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
Good word that is.
Sorry to inform you, but Israel has used terror based activities, it started from terrorist groups, it still uses them now. It breaks international law, over and over again - yet that's fine.
Grow up. Look at the facts, Israel A)started the war B)conducted in terrorist activities and c)the British troops never gave them the land under the deal we wanted.
(Which by the way would have been; international control of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and a few other key places. So both sides could visit their religious shrines. International Police patrolling the borders, with neither side having an army only a police force to protect their own land and then we get attacked for it...)
Odium...
Isn't it amazing to see the problems that have cropped up over past European acts of colonialism?
Interesting, no?
You know whats further amazing? Is that those meddling European acts of colonialism are still festering and creating sucking sounds today....
seekerof
Isn't it amazing to see the problems that have cropped up over past European acts of colonialism?
Interesting, no?
You know whats further amazing? Is that those meddling European acts of colonialism are still festering and creating sucking sounds today....
seekerof
Originally posted by Seekerof
Odium...
Isn't it amazing to see the problems that have cropped up over past European acts of colonialism?
Interesting, no?
You know whats further amazing? Is that those meddling European acts of colonialism are still festering and creating sucking sounds today....
seekerof
Very much so, we did cause the Middle East crisis and now we continue causing it by our lack of intervention. Same goes with Africa and Asia, we actually need to get involved and put the wrongs, right. But we no longer have the power to do this - although Britain gives what, 2nd largest sum of money compaired to GDP to Charity, if I remember only Norway gives more.
But, the treatment of Israel now isn't a way to fix the problems. Israel is breaking law after law in the way in which it is fighting against Palestine and we do nothing about them. It is this double standard that has a lot of people hating Westerners.
Thank you Odium for your U2U, as a newbie I can't reply to it because I still don't have 20 posts.
Originally posted by colin_hal
As for the rest of your post:
Even an Israeli soldier who was detained said that they treated him well:
www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/Printer&cid=1075349815518&p=1078397702269
Elhanan Tenenbaum was NOT a Soldier but a 54 year old citizen kidnapped by Hezbullah. He was a drug dealer who was nabbed by the Hezbullah for the purpose of extracting the release of Obeid and Dihrani. Who personally, I think, should have rotted in prison to the end of their days. Tennenbaum is a criminal who was once an officer. If Hizbullah planned on releasing him of course they would have treated him 'relatively' well.
probably but you need to understand that Joseph Farah is a Christian Arab/American he has reason to say what he does. I met a Egyptian Coptic Christian in my college days who said pretty much the same things. There is no smoke without a fire. I understand that generalizing is not fair. THere are good Muslims and from what I know the Turks are not as fundamentalist as the Arabs. Why is it the mix of Arab and Muslim make fanatics?
I've heard of Muslim organizations who intend on using that freedom to Islamify the US. I know this may be smoe paranoia in this but would still ike some feedback on this from you.
www.worldnetdaily.com...
wnd.com...
Again don't judge us by our worst specimen and the site you have quoted is blatantly Anti-islamic bias.
Which also comes from an extremist website which is dedicated in instilling fear in the hearts of ordinary people.
Anis Shorrosh, author of ''Islam Revealed'' and ''The True Furqan,'' is a Christian Arab-American who emigrated from Arab-controlled Jerusalem in January 1967.
''Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?''
This persons roots don't even go back that far and he already identifies himself as American already. And even goes as far as to say "we".
This is nothing but the same rap you hear from extremists Muslims who say that "America wants to westernise you and take over the world".
But America DOES want to westernize the Arab states - Its called democracy. The US does not want to take over the world but have influence on the most important countries for the US interest (this is true for every country).
Are you tryin gto tell me that Saudis and Pakistanis in 9/11 attacked the WTC because of the Palestinians plight?
I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be resolved and that it is getting worse but not because the US, Israel or the Europeans are not trying.
No my friend in no way did I say that, thats just an excuse used by extremists.
Show me where I said that 911 was a direct result of the palestine-Israel conflict.
Although I did say that this is one of the major problems that hasn't been addressed properly.
Maybe you do not say it but I heard it being brought up by Leftists and Arabs/Muslim alike.
Did I say Israel is the only country that recieves financial aid?
No, I simply stated is was one of the countries that recieves financial aid from the US.
Here are some facts and figures:
www.wrmea.com...
From 1949 -1997 Israel has cost American Tax Payers $84,854,827,200
American leaders are no fools. The money they pay Israel is to serve the American interest. Israel is a staunch ally of the US and will continue being one. If the US did not see that Israels existance is in the best interest of the US then it would not throw a dime in their direction.
I suspect that soon enough Iraq will become the largest recepient of cumulative aid.
How much did the US spend on Military then?
I do not know. I know that it is Aghanistan's self interest to have military aid so that it can be strong enough to fight off the Taliban's return to power.
What about the America companies that are being estabilished there and who's hands is Iraqi oil in now?
The US freed the Iraqi people from a cruel tyrant named Sadaam and his two criminal sons Uday and Qusay. The US lost soldier and spend exhorbant amount of money to stabilize that country and fight off the insurgants terrorist attrocities. The US deserves to at least have its citizenry enjoy the economic opportunities of rebuilding that country.
Originally posted by Odium
That'd be why there are so many Muslims in Bethlehem. It kind of makes sense as to why they out number Christians if you look into it.
No what makes sense is the fact that Muslims persecute and mistreat Christians
www.theprismgroup.org...
www.jcpa.org...
Which forces them to leave frontpagemag.com...
Originally posted by Odium
Sorry to inform you, but both those groups I mentioned were terrorist groups. One has even admitted it. You refuse to admit that they are?
I am sorry, I do not subscribe to the 'webster dictionary' definition of terrorism. That definition makes every country a terrorist country. My definition of terrorism is one that I think suits modern times the best and draws a fine line between legitamate fighting to defend you country and interests to people that indiscriminantly kill out of hate.
I define terrorism as 'targeting a civilian population as a strategy for political gain'.
Therefore the when Lehi, Irgun or Hagana attacked or ambushed British soldiers it isn't terrorism but legitamate acts of freedom fighters who use guerilla tactics.
When Palestinians attack Military targets I consider it legitimate military action. But when Palestinians attack civilians in buses, restaurants, synagauges, children's parties and/or homes there is no question about it IT IS TERRORISM plain and simple.
So when a Jewish person fights for his freedom by ambushing British troops it's guerilla warfare
YES you now seem to understand.
but when a muslim does it, it's terrorism. I like that.
If it is a civilian target and these types of attacks are a strategy used for political gain then YES. Fair enough?
Sorry to inform you, but Israel has used terror based activities, it started from terrorist groups, it still uses them now. It breaks international law, over and over again - yet that's fine.
And Palestinians don't? They have been targeting civilians long before the PLO ever existed. It is a cultural thing with Arab/Muslims to target civilians so that they can prove their superiority.
Grow up. Look at the facts, Israel
A)started the war
NO
B)conducted in terrorist activities
Not as much and as often as you think
So kill children and women because you didn;'t get what you wanted. You sound like a baby who just had his candy taken from him. It seems like you need to grow up.
and c)the British troops never gave them the land under the deal we wanted.
(Which by the way would have been; international control of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and a few other key places. So both sides could visit their religious shrines. International Police patrolling the borders, with neither side having an army only a police force to protect their own land and then we get attacked for it...)
So all the armies of the Arab world shouldn't have attacked Israel following its declaration of independance on 15th of May 1948. Maybe then your situation would have been much better.
Thank you JudahMaccabi for replying to my post, I understand this topic is taking up alot of our time.
I will respond shortly just give me some time to write my response.
You have taught me alot about yourself and your people.
However some of the links you have provided have come from unreliable sources, Frontpage Mag is one of them.
Daniel Pipes (May God enlighten him) is another good example of someone who blows things way out of proportion.
I have used some Jewish sources to back up my information, just to clarify that I am not trying to be bias.
Or that what I am saying isn't anti-semitic or anti-Israeli.
I believe that the Israeli state has a right to exist, but I also believe that a Palestinian state has the right to exist also.
Please bare with me, its going to take me some time to reply.
Odium you are very knowledgeable and I only wish I knew as much as you do.
And I am enjoying the rich dialect between you and brother JuddahMaccabi.
Peace be upon you all, and may God cast his blessings upon you all.
I will respond shortly just give me some time to write my response.
You have taught me alot about yourself and your people.
However some of the links you have provided have come from unreliable sources, Frontpage Mag is one of them.
Daniel Pipes (May God enlighten him) is another good example of someone who blows things way out of proportion.
I have used some Jewish sources to back up my information, just to clarify that I am not trying to be bias.
Or that what I am saying isn't anti-semitic or anti-Israeli.
I believe that the Israeli state has a right to exist, but I also believe that a Palestinian state has the right to exist also.
Please bare with me, its going to take me some time to reply.
Odium you are very knowledgeable and I only wish I knew as much as you do.
And I am enjoying the rich dialect between you and brother JuddahMaccabi.
Peace be upon you all, and may God cast his blessings upon you all.
The group was an offshoot of the Haganah in protest both against its policy of restraint and socialist leanings. Based on the premises formulated by
Ze'ev Jabotinsky that "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would
ensure the Jewish state," (Howard Sachar: A History of the State of Israel, pps 265-266)
From 1931 to 1937 it was a small, renegade group that undertook scattered attacks against Arab targets. This phase ended when the group itself split, with some of its leaders, including the original founder, Tehomi, returning to the Haganah; and the group formally identifying itself as "Etzel" (Irgun).
During the Great Uprising (1936-1939), in which about 400 Jews were killed in Arab attacks, Irgun resumed its reprisal attacks against Arabs. Following the killing of five Jews at Kibbutz Kiryat Anavim on November 9, 1937, Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II, in which more than 250 Arab civilians were killed.
In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves.
Moshe Dayan attacked the village of Khissas first on December the 18th - Civilians.
So, by your own definition these peoples happen to be terrorists.
jerusalem.indymedia.org... (slightly bias site, but lists dates of terrorist attacks by Israelis)
King David Hotel in Jerusalem (July 22, 1946)
What happened: 91 people killed by explosives planted by the Irgun: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and five persons of other nationalities. Of the dead, 21 were British government officials, 13 were soldiers, and three were police officers. There were also 49 employees of either the hotel or the British government and five members of the public
"On 18th December [1947] there was trouble in the Huleh Valley when Jews entered the Arab village of Khissas, near the Syrian frontier, and killed 10 and wounded 5 Arabs, most of whom were women and children, with grenades and machine-gun fire. They withdrew without suffering any casualties after leaving pamphlets stating that the attack was carried out by the Haganah as a reprisal for casualties suffered in Safad, and an incident near Khissas where a Jew had recently been killed by Arabs. The latter event had been in turn a reprisal for the shooting of an Arab by a Jewish Settlement policeman. So the system of one life for another, and often ten lives for another, was fostered. The attack on Khissas, in which 2 Lebanese and 2 Syrian visitors had been killed, resulted in the first hostile invasion of Arab irregulars over the frontier from Syria."
The Irgun threw a bomb from a speeding taxi in Jerusalem, killing 11 Arabs and two Britons.
"The following night [i.e., following the riot at the Haifa refinery] the Arab village of Balad es Sheik, which lies three miles southeast of Haifa, was attacked by a strong party of armed Haganah, who entered the village dressed as Arabs under heavy covering fire from the high ground. Firing sub-machine guns and throwing grenades into the houses, they succeeded in killing 14 Arabs, of whom 10 were women and children, and wounding 11. Their own casualties were slight."
"One Sunday in January [1948] a large truck loaded with oranges parked in the centre of Jaffa between Barclays bank and a government office Building. The truck was driven by two Stern Gang terrorists. They had failed on a previous attempt to enter Jaffa, when Arab sentries guarding access to the city had become suspicious and opened fire on the truck, Now on their second try, they had penetrated into the heart of the city with a truck that contained more than just oranges.
Disguised as Arabs, the experienced terrorists walked away from the vehicle, stopping for coffee at a nearby restaurant before leaving Jaffa. Soon after, an explosion demolished many buildings in the centre of the city. According to a Jaffa resident, Basil Ennab, one of the buildings destroyed was 'sort of a feeding centre for children,'[2] many of whom were among the over 100 casualties."
"According to [Israeli historian Aryeh] Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed in the course of the War of Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in each massacre) and about a hundred smaller massacres (of individuals or small groups). ... The historian Uri Milstein, a myth-shatterer, corroborates Yitzhaki's assessment regarding the massacres' extent and goes even further. 'If Yitzhaki claims that almost in every village there were murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre.'"
American-born West Bank settler Dr. Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. He killed 29 Palestinians before being beaten to death by the worshippers. Settlers established a shrine to him that was forcibly removed by the Israeli Government only in 1999. His father later wrote that "Perhaps someday our leaders will remove the blinders from their eyes, stop running with the deluded, persecuting pack and find the integrity to print the truth about Baruch's final act of self-sacrifice."
Disoriented in a sudden sandstorm on a regular flight from Tripoli to Cairo, Flight 114 entered airspace over the Sinai peninsula, then occupied by Israel. Within minutes, Israel shot the plane down, killing 106 of the 113 on board, including an American. The place crashed only 20 kilometers from the Egyptian-Sinai line. Prime Minister Golda Meir, Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, and Transportation Minister Shimon Peres found no fault with the Israel's actions.
Qibya, Jordan (October 14-15 night, 1953)
What happened: The Israeli army's now-infamous Unit 101, led by Ariel Sharon, killed about 70 civilians in a raid on this village.
I have on several sites, over 1000 attack by the Israeli Armed Forces and Militia that fit your definition of terrorism.
Kach (Hebrew for "Only Thus") was founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane. The stated goal of Kach and its offshoot Kahane Chai, which means "Kahane Lives," (founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the United States), is to restore the biblical state of Israel. Both organizations were declared terrorist organizations by the Israeli Cabinet in March 1994. This followed the groups' statements in support of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's attack in February 1994 on the al-Ibrahimi Mosqueand their verbal attacks on the Israeli Government. Goldstein was affiliated with Kach.
. Defying UN Security Council resolution 242 and refusing to withdraw its troops from the Occupied Territories after their 1967 invasion, Israel launched operations to further entrench itself in and subdue the Gaza strip in the 1970s. Sharon, now head of the IDF's Southern Command, took in bulldozers and within a day, under heavy armed protection, had flattened hundreds of homes, beating those, including children who begged for them to stop or stood in their way. Many of the now homeless refugees where then packed into trucks and exiled to the heart of the Sinae Desert. This was not an isolated incident. IDF forces under Sharon's command destroyed some 2,000 homes displacing 16,000 in August of 1971alone. All of these acts of terrosim and ethnic cleansing constitute grave war crimes and crimes against humanity under the Geneva Conventions, and are outine procedures in the Occupied Territories today where Palestinian homes are regularly bulldozed to rubble while their inhabitants if they try and protest are beaten or shot in front of their neighbors and families.
We condemn "Israel's responsibility for the large-scale massacre in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, which constituted an act of genocide" UN Commission on Human Rights (1985)
And as I mentioned earlier, they use Ambulances to move troops around. Breaking more international laws.
(March 7, 2002) IDF blocks UN delivery of urgently needed medicine, food, blankets, and tents to Jenin Camp.
(March 14,2002) "Physicians for Human Rights demands that Israel and its security forces respect medical neutrality and stop attacks on health personnel and health facilities."
During these incursions into refugee camps IDF forces damaged 22 UN schools, four UN health clinics, two UN ambulances, and four UN camp service centers. 141 refugee homes were destroyed adding to the 5,000 refugees who have had their homes bulldozed by the IDF since September 2000
List goes on, the U.N. etc says they are in breech of International Law, they've broken the first and fourth Geneve Convention over and over again - yet nothing is done about this.
From 1931 to 1937 it was a small, renegade group that undertook scattered attacks against Arab targets. This phase ended when the group itself split, with some of its leaders, including the original founder, Tehomi, returning to the Haganah; and the group formally identifying itself as "Etzel" (Irgun).
During the Great Uprising (1936-1939), in which about 400 Jews were killed in Arab attacks, Irgun resumed its reprisal attacks against Arabs. Following the killing of five Jews at Kibbutz Kiryat Anavim on November 9, 1937, Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II, in which more than 250 Arab civilians were killed.
In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves.
Moshe Dayan attacked the village of Khissas first on December the 18th - Civilians.
So, by your own definition these peoples happen to be terrorists.
Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I define terrorism as 'targeting a civilian population as a strategy for political gain'.
Therefore the when Lehi, Irgun or Hagana attacked or ambushed British soldiers it isn't terrorism but legitamate acts of freedom fighters who use guerilla tactics.
When Palestinians attack Military targets I consider it legitimate military action. But when Palestinians attack civilians in buses, restaurants, synagauges, children's parties and/or homes there is no question about it IT IS TERRORISM plain and simple.
jerusalem.indymedia.org... (slightly bias site, but lists dates of terrorist attacks by Israelis)
King David Hotel in Jerusalem (July 22, 1946)
What happened: 91 people killed by explosives planted by the Irgun: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and five persons of other nationalities. Of the dead, 21 were British government officials, 13 were soldiers, and three were police officers. There were also 49 employees of either the hotel or the British government and five members of the public
"On 18th December [1947] there was trouble in the Huleh Valley when Jews entered the Arab village of Khissas, near the Syrian frontier, and killed 10 and wounded 5 Arabs, most of whom were women and children, with grenades and machine-gun fire. They withdrew without suffering any casualties after leaving pamphlets stating that the attack was carried out by the Haganah as a reprisal for casualties suffered in Safad, and an incident near Khissas where a Jew had recently been killed by Arabs. The latter event had been in turn a reprisal for the shooting of an Arab by a Jewish Settlement policeman. So the system of one life for another, and often ten lives for another, was fostered. The attack on Khissas, in which 2 Lebanese and 2 Syrian visitors had been killed, resulted in the first hostile invasion of Arab irregulars over the frontier from Syria."
The Irgun threw a bomb from a speeding taxi in Jerusalem, killing 11 Arabs and two Britons.
"The following night [i.e., following the riot at the Haifa refinery] the Arab village of Balad es Sheik, which lies three miles southeast of Haifa, was attacked by a strong party of armed Haganah, who entered the village dressed as Arabs under heavy covering fire from the high ground. Firing sub-machine guns and throwing grenades into the houses, they succeeded in killing 14 Arabs, of whom 10 were women and children, and wounding 11. Their own casualties were slight."
"One Sunday in January [1948] a large truck loaded with oranges parked in the centre of Jaffa between Barclays bank and a government office Building. The truck was driven by two Stern Gang terrorists. They had failed on a previous attempt to enter Jaffa, when Arab sentries guarding access to the city had become suspicious and opened fire on the truck, Now on their second try, they had penetrated into the heart of the city with a truck that contained more than just oranges.
Disguised as Arabs, the experienced terrorists walked away from the vehicle, stopping for coffee at a nearby restaurant before leaving Jaffa. Soon after, an explosion demolished many buildings in the centre of the city. According to a Jaffa resident, Basil Ennab, one of the buildings destroyed was 'sort of a feeding centre for children,'[2] many of whom were among the over 100 casualties."
"According to [Israeli historian Aryeh] Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed in the course of the War of Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in each massacre) and about a hundred smaller massacres (of individuals or small groups). ... The historian Uri Milstein, a myth-shatterer, corroborates Yitzhaki's assessment regarding the massacres' extent and goes even further. 'If Yitzhaki claims that almost in every village there were murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre.'"
American-born West Bank settler Dr. Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. He killed 29 Palestinians before being beaten to death by the worshippers. Settlers established a shrine to him that was forcibly removed by the Israeli Government only in 1999. His father later wrote that "Perhaps someday our leaders will remove the blinders from their eyes, stop running with the deluded, persecuting pack and find the integrity to print the truth about Baruch's final act of self-sacrifice."
Disoriented in a sudden sandstorm on a regular flight from Tripoli to Cairo, Flight 114 entered airspace over the Sinai peninsula, then occupied by Israel. Within minutes, Israel shot the plane down, killing 106 of the 113 on board, including an American. The place crashed only 20 kilometers from the Egyptian-Sinai line. Prime Minister Golda Meir, Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, and Transportation Minister Shimon Peres found no fault with the Israel's actions.
Qibya, Jordan (October 14-15 night, 1953)
What happened: The Israeli army's now-infamous Unit 101, led by Ariel Sharon, killed about 70 civilians in a raid on this village.
I have on several sites, over 1000 attack by the Israeli Armed Forces and Militia that fit your definition of terrorism.
Kach (Hebrew for "Only Thus") was founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane. The stated goal of Kach and its offshoot Kahane Chai, which means "Kahane Lives," (founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the United States), is to restore the biblical state of Israel. Both organizations were declared terrorist organizations by the Israeli Cabinet in March 1994. This followed the groups' statements in support of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's attack in February 1994 on the al-Ibrahimi Mosqueand their verbal attacks on the Israeli Government. Goldstein was affiliated with Kach.
. Defying UN Security Council resolution 242 and refusing to withdraw its troops from the Occupied Territories after their 1967 invasion, Israel launched operations to further entrench itself in and subdue the Gaza strip in the 1970s. Sharon, now head of the IDF's Southern Command, took in bulldozers and within a day, under heavy armed protection, had flattened hundreds of homes, beating those, including children who begged for them to stop or stood in their way. Many of the now homeless refugees where then packed into trucks and exiled to the heart of the Sinae Desert. This was not an isolated incident. IDF forces under Sharon's command destroyed some 2,000 homes displacing 16,000 in August of 1971alone. All of these acts of terrosim and ethnic cleansing constitute grave war crimes and crimes against humanity under the Geneva Conventions, and are outine procedures in the Occupied Territories today where Palestinian homes are regularly bulldozed to rubble while their inhabitants if they try and protest are beaten or shot in front of their neighbors and families.
We condemn "Israel's responsibility for the large-scale massacre in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, which constituted an act of genocide" UN Commission on Human Rights (1985)
And as I mentioned earlier, they use Ambulances to move troops around. Breaking more international laws.
(March 7, 2002) IDF blocks UN delivery of urgently needed medicine, food, blankets, and tents to Jenin Camp.
(March 14,2002) "Physicians for Human Rights demands that Israel and its security forces respect medical neutrality and stop attacks on health personnel and health facilities."
During these incursions into refugee camps IDF forces damaged 22 UN schools, four UN health clinics, two UN ambulances, and four UN camp service centers. 141 refugee homes were destroyed adding to the 5,000 refugees who have had their homes bulldozed by the IDF since September 2000
List goes on, the U.N. etc says they are in breech of International Law, they've broken the first and fourth Geneve Convention over and over again - yet nothing is done about this.
Odium, thanks for the post.
I didn't know about these Israeli atrocities... Oh my God...
I didn't know about these Israeli atrocities... Oh my God...
U.S. military equipment supplied to Israel
In the past 10 years the US has provided Israel with $7.2bn worth of weaponry and military equipment, including:
Equipment, Cost (per unit)
Fighter planes
237 F-16 Fighting Falcons, $34.3m (each!)
98 F-15 Eagles, $38m
50 F-4E Phantoms, $18.4m
Helicopters
42 AH-64 Apache Attacks, $14.5m
57 Cobra Attacks, $10.7m
25 Blackhawks, $11m
Missiles
AGM 65 Mavericks, $17,000-$110,000
AGM 114 Hellfires, $40,000
Aim 7 Sparrows, $125,000
Aim 9 Sidewinders, $84,000
Aim 120B Amraams, $386,000
Harpoon anti-ship missiles, $720,000
. . And a few Freebies
The US also gives weapons and ammunition free of charge.
Between 1994 and 2001 this included:
64,744 M-16A1 rifles,
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers,
1,500 M-2 .50 calibre machine guns
and
.30 calibre,
.50 calibre,
20mm
ammunition
Source: World Policy Institute. Research department: Linda MacDonald
In the past 10 years the US has provided Israel with $7.2bn worth of weaponry and military equipment, including:
Equipment, Cost (per unit)
Fighter planes
237 F-16 Fighting Falcons, $34.3m (each!)
98 F-15 Eagles, $38m
50 F-4E Phantoms, $18.4m
Helicopters
42 AH-64 Apache Attacks, $14.5m
57 Cobra Attacks, $10.7m
25 Blackhawks, $11m
Missiles
AGM 65 Mavericks, $17,000-$110,000
AGM 114 Hellfires, $40,000
Aim 7 Sparrows, $125,000
Aim 9 Sidewinders, $84,000
Aim 120B Amraams, $386,000
Harpoon anti-ship missiles, $720,000
. . And a few Freebies
The US also gives weapons and ammunition free of charge.
Between 1994 and 2001 this included:
64,744 M-16A1 rifles,
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers,
1,500 M-2 .50 calibre machine guns
and
.30 calibre,
.50 calibre,
20mm
ammunition
Source: World Policy Institute. Research department: Linda MacDonald
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 678 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (Last Update: March 21, 2005)
Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
1,047 Israelis and 3,601 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000
7,154 Israelis and 28,644 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
www.ifamericansknew.org...
Daily U.S. Assistance to Israel and the Palestinians
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.
UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
Political Prisoners and Detainees
No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,043 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.
Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%.
New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)
60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.
118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 678 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (Last Update: March 21, 2005)
Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
1,047 Israelis and 3,601 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000
7,154 Israelis and 28,644 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
www.ifamericansknew.org...
Daily U.S. Assistance to Israel and the Palestinians
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.
UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
Political Prisoners and Detainees
No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,043 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.
Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%.
New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)
60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.
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