WTC the financial MECCA of the USA

It is too bad you did not make a pilgramage to WTC. I think most Americans who visit NYC make a HUGE effort to go there. I guess that American patriotism and solidarity is beneath you.

A pilgrammage to the WTC? are you serious? Yes lots of people dies there, yes it was a terrible thing and yes you should remember the dead, but to think that you have to go there to be a 'good american' is utter and complete nonsense. The WTC was not a religious site, it was a very big building where numberous companies traded (as in world trade center) but it was no more than that, before 9/11 it was nothing more than a very tall skyscraper, a symbol of the hyperimportance of money in the modern western world, which is why it was attacked. To claim that you should make a pilgrammage there is tantamount to saying the Capitalism has become the new religion and money the new God, this is something i find very, very disturbing.
Capitalism preaches nothing about morals, or the rights and wrongs of what people do, by definition it is about personal gain at any expense.

I sue religious terms (e.g. Pilgrimage) in order to compare selcular acts to religious acts.
Religion, as I mentioned below is a set of beliefs - Some of these beliefs do not even have god associated with it. Religion in modern days are becoming passe. Al-qaida's attack on the WTC was a religious war waged against the symbol of the most powerful secular country in the world. A religious war. They also planned to attack the vatican and the Pope - as I mentioned and brought evidence as well to back this claim up. Their intentions are to perform an act within the magnitude of bombing the Mecca Shrine from their standpoint. Our willingness to downplay the magnitude of this act shows them just how weak we are.
AGAIN - I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE BOMB MECCA - I WANT IT TO BE CLEAR THAT AL-QAIDA'S INTENTION WAS TO ATTACK THE 'MECCA' OF THE AMERICAN WAY. WE NEED TO IMPOSE A DETERENT TO THIS.

IN MY VIEW BOMBING THE MECCA SHRINE WHEN IT IS EMPTY IS MUCH LESS A 'CRIME' THEN BOMBING THE WTC WITH A SINGLE PERSON IN IT. LIFE IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN A BUILDING.

I was never at ground zero because I never had the chance to go to NYC since 9-11. If ever I get that chance I will definately go to ground zero.
I was never in France, if ever I go there I will definately go to see NORMANDY as well as the EIFFEL tower.

If ever in Poland I would go to visit Auschwitz.
This is not out of extreme nationalism - It is because I am HUMAN.

As for my nationality I am both American and Israeli.


[edit on 15/4/05 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
IN MY VIEW BOMBING THE MECCA SHRINE WHEN IT IS EMPTY IS MUCH LESS A 'CRIME' THEN BOMBING THE WTC WITH A SINGLE PERSON IN IT. LIFE IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN A BUILDING.

I cound not disagree More! By bombing a Holy Place of Islamic religion, you are directly attacking the Islamic religion. You can not equal a Corporate Heaven of WTC building with a Holy Place of a Religion, that was founded centuries ago! It is like bombing the Vatican City when it is empty - plain and utter Stupidity! Are you saying that WTC represents the Holy Place for the entire American and Western civilisation? Would you be happy if Muslims demoloshed an Israeli Holy place - the Wailing Wall?

Well, while you are bombing, dont forget to add to your list of targets also Medina and Jerusalem - which are all Holy places for Islamic religion.

Originally posted by Souljah
Would you be happy if Muslims demoloshed an Israeli Holy place - the Wailing Wall?

The Muslims already demolished several Jewish holy places:
1- Jacobs tomb in Nabalus was destroyed by that Palestinians in 2000.
2- The Ancient synagauge in Jericho was also torched that same year.
3- above 40 synagauges many ancient in east Jerusalem where Destroyed by the Jordanians following the Israeli war of Independence in 1948.
4- Muslims from the Al-Aqza mosque would regularly stone Jewish worshippers in the wailing wall below.
5- The destruction of the synagogue in Djerba, Algeria by al-qaida.

And the list goes on and on and on and on.

It is idiotic to think that human life is less important. A murdered individual cannot be resurrected. Buildings that can be restored.



[edit on 15/4/05 by JudahMaccabbi]

Alright Germans Exterminated 6 million jews why weren't they nuked?

Originally posted by colin_hal
Alright Germans Exterminated 6 million jews why weren't they nuked?

Because JudahMaccabi has a fixation on bombing Mecca, that's why.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
The Muslims already demolished several Jewish holy places:
1- Jacobs tomb in Nabalus was destroyed by that Palestinians in 2000.
2- The Ancient synagauge in Jericho was also torched that same year.
3- above 40 synagauges many ancient in east Jerusalem where Destroyed by the Jordanians following the Israeli war of Independence in 1948.
4- Muslims from the Al-Aqza mosque would regularly stone Jewish worshippers in the wailing wall below.
5- The destruction of the synagogue in Djerba, Algeria by al-qaida.

And the list goes on and on and on and on.

It is idiotic to think that human life is less important. A murdered individual cannot be resurrected. Buildings that can be restored.

I agree with you that it is utterly Idiotic to compare human Life to buildings - ofcourse people can not be ressurected and buildings can be restored.

But it is also Idiotic to compare a corporate skyscraper, like WTC, to an old and historical place like Mecca - one has no religious meaning at all, the other IS the founding stone of the entire religion.

You talk about destroyed and burned synagauges and tombs - but I see that happening all over Europe, where young nazi's destroy Jewish gravestones and synagauges. But you talk about bombing one of three Most Important Holy places for Islamic people - and compare that to WTC bombing. Well you might be right in one view: WTC did represent the Might and Power of the Western Corporate World, and maybe as this Icon it was the "religious holy place" for all the western corporate people.

Anyway, lets take a look what happened to Iraqi historical, cultural and religious heritage, when the US forces "liberated" Iraq of the "criminals, terrorists and tyrants":

* Shi'ites move BAghdad's greatest library to Najaf, Turks. US, 22 April 2003
* Burned libraries make Iraq's history a war casualty, Boston Globe, 21 April 2003
* The vanishing past: Iraq's proud library turns to bitter ashes, Washington Post, 18 April 2003
* Glendive priest decries looting of Iraqi artifacts, April 17, 2003, BillingsGazette
* Pakistan shocked at burning of Qur'aan library in Baghdad, April 17, 2003, HiPakistan
* Pillagers sack, burn Iraq library, treasures, Independent Record, 16 April 2003
* Inquiry demanded over US failure to stop library looting, April 16, 2003, Independent
* Ancient archive lost in Baghdad library blaze, The Guardian, 15 April 2003

More Iraq Museum stories:

* Iraqis say US ignored pleas to halt museum looting, Reuters, 24 April 2003
* Professionals suspected in looting of museum, International Herald Tribune, 21 April 2003
* US army was told to protect looted museum, The Observer, 20 April 2003
* Our First Words, Written in Clay, in an Accountant's Hand, New York Times April 20, 2003
* Missing: A Vase, a Book, a Bird and 10,000 Years of History, New York Times, April 20, 2003
* The looting of Baghdad's museum and library: US government implicated in planned theft of Iraqi artistic treasures, WSWS, 19 April 2003
* Experts: Looters had keys to Iraq Museum, The Guardian, 18 April 2003
* When 'free people' loot. The Globe and Mail, 18 April 2003
* Looters May Have Destroyed Priceless Cuneiform Archive, Washington Post, April 17, 2003
* Signs point to planned heist: Only office items, select antiquities stolen, officials say, 17 April 2003, Chicago Tribune (Free registration required)
* The end of civilization, April 17, 2003, Salon.com
* Museum theft looks organized: Antiquities grab called selective, April 16, 2003, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
* The sacking of Iraq's museums: US wages war against culture and history, WSWS, 16 April 2003
* 'Cradle of civilization' is rocked, April 16, 2003, THE WASHINGTON TIMES
* Letters. The high price of museum plundering, April 16, 2003, The Guardian
* Comment. Is this plundering really so bad?, April 15, 2003 , The Guardian
* British Museum says Baghdad looting a catastrophe ahead of UNESCO meeting, April 15, 2003 , SpaceDaily
* On the scene. Jim Clancy: Museum 'shattered' by looters, April 15, 2003 , CNN
* CNN LIVE TODAY. Looting Destroys Prehistoric Iraqi Treasures, April 15, 2003 , CNN
* The looting of Iraq's past April 14, 2003 , USAToday
* Treasures Looted from Baghdad Museum Feared Lost, April 14, 2003 , Reuters
* Rich past stripped as future in tatters, April 14, 2003 , Sydney Morning Herald
* The Ransacking of the Baghdad Museum Is a Disgrace, April 14, 2003 , History News Network
* US blamed for failure to stop sacking of museum, April 14, 2003 , Independent
* Looters ransack museum's treasure, April 14, 2003 , The Australian
* Museum's treasures left to the mercy of looters, April 14, 2003 , The Guardian
* Pentagon Was Told Of Risk to Museums, U.S. Urged to Save Iraq's Historic Artifacts, April 14, 2003 , The Washington Post
* 'The collection lies in ruins, objects from a long, rich past in smithereens', April 14, 2003 , The Guardian
* Yale professor concerned about treasures destroyed in Iraq, April 13, 2003 , WTNH News
* Inside the remains of the Iraqi Museum of Archaeology, April 12-13, 2003 , The Guardian
* A civilisation torn to pieces, April 13, 2003 , Independent
* Art Experts Fear Worst in the Plunder of a Museum, April 13, 2003, The New York Times

Nice list ey?

Originally posted by smallpeeps
AMM, threatening with nukes is utter suicide on a long enough timeline. I posted at length about this here: [Deterrence Theory is a Fraud]

MAD is an illusion because nobody's destruction can be mutually assured. The Soviets and the Chinese will have many survivors of a US nuclear strike because they have a different mentality than the US. They have civil defense. They have bunkers and tunnels. Did you notice how the Vietnamese were able to tunnel around, even directly under US bases? Do you think these people's destruction will be 'assured' just because we lob our nukes at them? I say many of them will survive our surface blasts. What has been gained when this theory is tested?

The term Mutually Assured Destruction means nothing and is essentially a non-concept. Even if you were holding your pistol to your opponent's head and you both pulled your triggers, you could not assure your enemy's destruction. To posture with nuclear weapons is simply to hasten the eventual breakdown in an interconnected system.

On a long enough time line anything can happen. MAD is a PROVEN concept thus far in history. It has worked. You can not argue that.

Now, if you want to argue how that would aply to a Islamic fundamentalist nut bag, well, I think that does hold some value. However, you can read my response to that in my previous posts.

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by colin_hal
Alright Germans Exterminated 6 million jews why weren't they nuked?

Because JudahMaccabi has a fixation on bombing Mecca, that's why.

Exactly! And this is a question many of these extremists won't answer.
Islamic extremists aren't the only extremists in the world.
There are extremists in every country, and its because of these American extremists that America gets a lot of bad press.
For example the people who abused prisoners in Abu Ghraib aren't "real Americans" or "Patriots".
The majority of Americans were outraged by that incident.

And just because there are some Americans who aren't afraid to speak the truth even if its against themselves, doesn't make them self-hating.
It makes them true Americans, who want truth.

MAD is a PROVEN concept thus far in history. It has worked. You can not argue that.

Well, the idea of MAD is a media-lie (you cannot ensure your enemy's destruction) but I understand your meaning that the collective media construct of nuclear war has caused enough fear that it hasn't happened yet, for whatever reason. Deterrence theory certainly has NEVER worked in the history of conventional weapons, however, so its failure is certain. No matter how big your army or weapon is, somebody will always take you on or provoke you. We do need a different solution because sooner or later, Deterrence always fails and when it fails for nukes, it'll be the worst moment for the human race.

That's what's makes this world situation such a gordian knot. The world seems to think only in terms of deterrents. We need to start inventing more carrots and less sticks otherwise the biggest stick of all (nuke war) will drop directly on everyone's head. What will Allah/YHWH think when the major cities of earth are irradiated festering sores? Surely there has to be a better solution, long term.


[edit on 15-4-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Muslims have destroyed many religious shrines in India, Israel, Europe and somehow this was tolerated. 9/11 targeted a way of life that is based on a system of beliefs. You need to think in a secular mind frame for this. They targeted secularism, capitalism and everything they perceive as AMERICAN. There are those who love the US more than they love their religion. To them this is a desecration of their way of life.

I purposely used an extreme example in order to point out that mosque in MECCA is no better than WTC, the UN building or Joseph's tomb in Nabalus.
What is of importance is human life which seems to be of the least importance to these fundamentalists. If these fanatics understand that their holy shrine is to be targeted should their attacks continue and the free world learns to grasp the magnitude of the WTC attack then maybe WW III can be averted. In my view WWIII will be against Islam regardless of if we attack MECCA or not.

"Natural law theories base human rights on the “natural” moral order based on religious precepts, the assumed common understandings of justice, or the belief that moral behavior is a set of objectively valid prescriptions. In legend, literature, religion and political thought, justice (and eventually the concept of human rights) became socially constructed over time into complex webs of social interaction striving toward a social order in which human beings are treated fairly. Religious societies tend to try to justify human rights through religious arguments. For example, liberal movements within Islam have tried to use the story of Adam in the Qur'an to support human rights in a Muslim context."

en.wikipedia.org...

You do also know that those Shrines in Israel, India, etc are also Muslim Shrines? I would like a list of these "Shrins" they destroyed, compaired to Shrines that Christians destroyed during the Crusades. Once you back that statement up, I'll show you a few facts.

The Islamic World doesn't want War with America or War with the World. Go read the Qu'ran you're ignorant of Islam on a basic level.

www.usc.edu... - Go read it there and then speak to me or anyone about Islam.

Also, Mecca isn't the most important of the Islamic Shrines. Why not bomb the most important one?

And Islam was one of the starting points for Human Rights, what we see as "inhumane" was actually put in place for a reason. Most of which I can explain if you're willing to ask?

Well, as you may have noticed this site is full of people convinced that the Bush Admin. was behind 9/11

Now, I understand that you may be angry after what happened (as am I), however, an attack on Mecca would not be justified. Why? Because it is not a political target. It is religious.

I could, however, see that happening if Muslim fundamentalists attacked say, a major Christian target..say..the Vatican? Though the Vatican is Catholic, many, many Christians look to it with great respect. Now, 2 billion Christians against say, 1 Billion and change of Muslims would be the new crusade.

I could see that happening in the event that Muslim fundamentalists turned their targets from political to religious. In that case, I could see the justification for a major Christian country (And yes, the U.S. is one - the majority of people here are Christian), to attack Mecca. Though it would cause a global, ugly war, it could happen..

-wD

Originally posted by Souljah
Anyway, lets take a look what happened to Iraqi historical, cultural and religious heritage, when the US forces "liberated" Iraq of the "criminals, terrorists and tyrants":

* Shi'ites move BAghdad's greatest library to Najaf, Turks. US, 22 April 2003
* Burned libraries make Iraq's history a war casualty, Boston Globe, 21 April 2003
* The vanishing past: Iraq's proud library turns to bitter ashes, Washington Post, 18 April 2003
* Glendive priest decries looting of Iraqi artifacts, April 17, 2003, BillingsGazette
* Pakistan shocked at burning of Qur'aan library in Baghdad, April 17, 2003, HiPakistan
* Pillagers sack, burn Iraq library, treasures, Independent Record, 16 April 2003
* Inquiry demanded over US failure to stop library looting, April 16, 2003, Independent
* Ancient archive lost in Baghdad library blaze, The Guardian, 15 April 2003

More Iraq Museum stories:

* Iraqis say US ignored pleas to halt museum looting, Reuters, 24 April 2003
* Professionals suspected in looting of museum, International Herald Tribune, 21 April 2003
* US army was told to protect looted museum, The Observer, 20 April 2003
* Our First Words, Written in Clay, in an Accountant's Hand, New York Times April 20, 2003
* Missing: A Vase, a Book, a Bird and 10,000 Years of History, New York Times, April 20, 2003
* The looting of Baghdad's museum and library: US government implicated in planned theft of Iraqi artistic treasures, WSWS, 19 April 2003
* Experts: Looters had keys to Iraq Museum, The Guardian, 18 April 2003
* When 'free people' loot. The Globe and Mail, 18 April 2003
* Looters May Have Destroyed Priceless Cuneiform Archive, Washington Post, April 17, 2003
* Signs point to planned heist: Only office items, select antiquities stolen, officials say, 17 April 2003, Chicago Tribune (Free registration required)
* The end of civilization, April 17, 2003, Salon.com
* Museum theft looks organized: Antiquities grab called selective, April 16, 2003, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
* The sacking of Iraq's museums: US wages war against culture and history, WSWS, 16 April 2003
* 'Cradle of civilization' is rocked, April 16, 2003, THE WASHINGTON TIMES
* Letters. The high price of museum plundering, April 16, 2003, The Guardian
* Comment. Is this plundering really so bad?, April 15, 2003 , The Guardian
* British Museum says Baghdad looting a catastrophe ahead of UNESCO meeting, April 15, 2003 , SpaceDaily
* On the scene. Jim Clancy: Museum 'shattered' by looters, April 15, 2003 , CNN
* CNN LIVE TODAY. Looting Destroys Prehistoric Iraqi Treasures, April 15, 2003 , CNN
* The looting of Iraq's past April 14, 2003 , USAToday
* Treasures Looted from Baghdad Museum Feared Lost, April 14, 2003 , Reuters
* Rich past stripped as future in tatters, April 14, 2003 , Sydney Morning Herald
* The Ransacking of the Baghdad Museum Is a Disgrace, April 14, 2003 , History News Network
* US blamed for failure to stop sacking of museum, April 14, 2003 , Independent
* Looters ransack museum's treasure, April 14, 2003 , The Australian
* Museum's treasures left to the mercy of looters, April 14, 2003 , The Guardian
* Pentagon Was Told Of Risk to Museums, U.S. Urged to Save Iraq's Historic Artifacts, April 14, 2003 , The Washington Post
* 'The collection lies in ruins, objects from a long, rich past in smithereens', April 14, 2003 , The Guardian
* Yale professor concerned about treasures destroyed in Iraq, April 13, 2003 , WTNH News
* Inside the remains of the Iraqi Museum of Archaeology, April 12-13, 2003 , The Guardian
* A civilisation torn to pieces, April 13, 2003 , Independent
* Art Experts Fear Worst in the Plunder of a Museum, April 13, 2003, The New York Times

Nice list ey?

I totally agree with you that the above mentioned events are crimes and are a tragedy. Not only an Iraqi tragedy but one that encompasses the world as a whole.

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by colin_hal
Alright Germans Exterminated 6 million jews why weren't they nuked?

Because JudahMaccabi has a fixation on bombing Mecca, that's why.

About Nazi Germany - THe Germans weren't Nukes because there was no reason to - the war was already over. The Germans were getting there butt kicked and their regime demolished. Nazi Germany was no threat.

Aelita, your suggestion that I WANT to bomb MECCA is baseless.
In modern times the biggest threat to the world in Fundamental Islam. No other group is more dangerous than them and time will prove me right.
Fundamenalism in Islam is an issue that needs to be dealt with NOW, not by bombing MECCA but by first understanding the magnitude of this threat and secondly by acting to counter it. Threatening to bomb Mecca or Medina is one part in the campaign meant to be a deterent against further aggressions by the Fundamenalists.

There are many peaceful Muslims but they are powerless or fear to act and in the end turn out to be the biggest victims.

Webdevil

I am glad you show some signs of intelligence instead of just blindly demanding that Mecca be nuked, which shows that you are a true patriot.
What is happening right now between the muslims and the west is very sad.
Muslim countries aren't perfect, but neither is the West.
Throughout history there's been extreme amounts of violence, and when we look back at all of that. What was the point of it all?

Now we have a chance to make the world a better place for future generations, we should be calling for calm.
Yes there are extremists in muslim countries and the muslims have to rise up against them, but George Bush's tactics is making muslims feel as if they are under attack as a whole.

If someone invaded your country you would fight him even if you do not agree with your countries politics. And when you lose, you will feel humiliated.
Then you will become desperate and will want to support anyone who is willing to give you back your sense of pride. Even if that person was the devil himself.
We saw how desperate the Germans had become to have backed up someone like Hitler.

Muslims do not support these millitant groups, but most of them don't speak out against them because they feel as if they would be traitors.
This is the problem with having a dictatorship where people have to conform to an ideology.
America is blamed, and Israel is blamed for most of the problems that are taking place in the Middle East.

If you've met a muslim person whether he is living in America or elsewhere, you'll notice he just a human being just like you.
He wants no harm done to you, although people do look at him/her with contempt because they are pumped with fear by the media.

So in America too people are being indoctrinated, not only is it happening in the Middle East.
Even in childrens programs.
Islam is never discussed, or ever mentioned, its looked at very negatively.
I remember WWF used to have Iraqi characters, and sudanese characters, who were basically the bad guys. They would come waving their flag and get their asses kicked. This is indoctrination.

As a muslim I can safely tell you that no true muslim would attack a place of worship.
Never should we insult another persons religion either, because he can just easily insult yours, which would escalate from there.
Infact you see KKK members desecrating crosses, you see a certain musician ripping up a bible in the name of "freedom of speech" and "art".

When does one draw the line? Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, but should one use it to attack someone's beliefs and ridicule them?
I know muslims get very touchy about this matter and again you'll find the most ignorant ones who seem very religious that carry out violent acts against the ones who belittle our religion.

I get upset when someone ridicules my religion, but I don't believe he/she should be killed.
The reason why muslims get very upset is because religion is all they have.
If you believe that this material world is of no benefit to you, then you will only value your goal which is God.

Now lets talk about suicide bombers and nukes.
Both are forbidden, you can't commit suicide nor can you kill someone with fire.
Like what happened in Sept 11th many muslims have already condemned it, and it was an act of terror.

Many of the uneducated muslims (may God guide them) are running around declaring holy war.
Now this is something that a small group like Al Queda cannot declare, and the majority of muslims don't support them.
Yes you do have some countries aiding them financially, but America has aided them in the past.
America also aided Saddam to fight a war against the Iranians by proxy, so nobody is perfect.

The reason why I am addressing this to you Web Devil, is because you sound like a patriot and an open minded one.
Or maybe I just got that impression .

We as muslims are not doing enough to spread the true message of Islam which is peace. Thats our job as muslims.
Holy war is to be declared against those who have pushed us out of our homes, and stopped us from practicing our faith.
In America muslims are given alot of freedom which is something I am very grateful for.
And thank you for looking after my brothers and sisters in your midst.
(God willing) you will be rewarded for your patients.

If there were martyrs in Sept 11th, they were the firefighters who died trying to save lives.
Even though Sept 11th was a very treacherous attack, I don't believe war is a good thing.
I believe the main issue that should be addressed at the moment is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Which no one has paid enough attention to, and its only going to get worse and worse.

Muslims see America as turning a blind eye to the Injustice Israeli's are inflicting on Palestinians.
As America is a very good Ally with Israel, and one of their main financial aid.

I have alot of faith in Americans, who want whats good for all humanity.
And I remember directly after september 11th a Christian organisation were guarding mosques.
There was even alot of love mail being sent to mosques, which shows that there are alot of good people out there.

We have alot to learn about each other.
War is becoming very serious, and is dividing alot of our people.
If the whole world does come to an end because of Nukes, then I would die a happy man knowing that I had nothing to do with it.

Because Extremists in America can shout "Lets Nukem" just as loud as extremists in the middle east can shout "Holy war".
Like you Mentioned Mecca is a religious site, not a military target.
The whole faith revolves around there, you would be destroying something so dear to us.
It makes me sick to hear people even considering it as an option.

Extremists always view the apposing as being flies.

I cannot think of any act that would push more moderate Muslims into the hands of the extremists than attacking Mecca. What a completely loony idea.

If what you want is to deliver a hundred million new recruits to Bin Laden, I suppose it's a great plan

[edit on 16-4-2005 by xmotex]

Originally posted by colin_hal

Muslim countries aren't perfect, but neither is the West.
Throughout history there's been extreme amounts of violence, and when we look back at all of that. What was the point of it all?

No nation is perfect. No culture is perfect. But a culture were public executions occur, where political/religious leaders spread blatant lies meant to demonize another religion or a culture (blood libel against the Jews which is again being echoed by the Saudis) and where you are forced to conform to that nations ideals or you are terrorized (all the Dictatoral regimes) is a coutry or culture far from being acceptable in modern times. These countries sit on the UNs security counsel and have a right to vote in the UN (Security counsel and General assembly).

Now we have a chance to make the world a better place for future generations, we should be calling for calm.
Yes there are extremists in muslim countries and the muslims have to rise up against them

Nicely said!

, but George Bush's tactics is making muslims feel as if they are under attack as a whole.

How is this? By giving them their own democracy? constitution? This is propaganda spread by the enemies in order to justify fighting off American "occupation". After WWII the US has kept a presence in Germany to this day. Is Germany under occupation?

If someone invaded your country you would fight him even if you do not agree with your countries politics. And when you lose, you will feel humiliated.
Then you will become desperate and will want to support anyone who is willing to give you back your sense of pride. Even if that person was the devil himself.
We saw how desperate the Germans had become to have backed up someone like Hitler.

ARe you suggesting the insurgents in Iraq are fighting off the Americans because the US invaded their country? I believe most of the insurgents fall into the followinig categories:
1-Baath Party loyalists who would like to show that rule under them only provided stability and safety. Hence, they orchestrate terrorist attrocities relentlessly.
2-Foreign Mujhadin type fighters who are there out of religious obligation to fight off the Americans. These fighters are fundamentalists who not even Iraqi but are part of the Imperialist Muslims whose ambitions are to form an Caliphate on Islamic lands (which would include Israel, Spain and all lands that historically at one point or another where under Mulsim rule).
3- Foreign fighters loyal to Syria, Iran and possibly other Arab countries who would like to see the US failing in their DEMOCRATIZATION of the middle east.

Muslims do not support these millitant groups, but most of them don't speak out against them because they feel as if they would be traitors.
This is the problem with having a dictatorship where people have to conform to an ideology.

Agreed - In addition these are the true victims of this war since they are the ones being butchered in the terrorist attacks.

America is blamed, and Israel is blamed for most of the problems that are taking place in the Middle East.

As always regardless of the truth.

If you've met a muslim person whether he is living in America or elsewhere, you'll notice he just a human being just like you.
He wants no harm done to you, although people do look at him/her with contempt because they are pumped with fear by the media.

I have met Muslims in the US and in Israel. Some were very sympathetic, warm and cordial - Hell I nearly dated a Palestinian girl in college (me being an American/Israeli). Others I met were vulgar and clearly articulated their desire for the Caliphate I mentioned above. Some were more cordial but still prefered Islamification of the Middle-East and the destruction of Israel. I admired their candidness though. In my case it was not the media but personal experience.

So in America too people are being indoctrinated, not only is it happening in the Middle East.
Even in childrens programs.
Islam is never discussed, or ever mentioned, its looked at very negatively.
I remember WWF used to have Iraqi characters, and sudanese characters, who were basically the bad guys. They would come waving their flag and get their asses kicked. This is indoctrination.

I agree it is unfair, I even recall that Star-Wars II had a race that were the "bad-guys" who spoke in a language that sounded like "Arabic".
I sympathize with this feeling - It is too bad that it is like this.

As a muslim I can safely tell you that no true muslim would attack a place of worship.
Never should we insult another persons religion either, because he can just easily insult yours, which would escalate from there.
Infact you see KKK members desecrating crosses, you see a certain musician ripping up a bible in the name of "freedom of speech" and "art".

As a Jew I can understand this feeling but I still see that it is mostly Muslims that desecrate houses of worship and shrines of others (Hindu, Christian, Jewish as examples). I think that Islam or at least those subscribing to the Fundamentalist (Wahabi and Ayatola Shiite) version of this believe it is OK to desecrate other religions houses of worship since those religions are inferior. Under Ottoman rule all relligions other than Mulsim where considered Inferior, non-Muslims had less rights, where forced to pay additional taxes and their houses of worship had to be smaller than those of Muslims.

When does one draw the line? Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, but should one use it to attack someone's beliefs and ridicule them?
I know muslims get very touchy about this matter

and again you'll find the most ignorant ones who seem very religious that carry out violent acts against the ones who belittle our religion.

The problem is that those ignorant ones are the masses.

The reason why muslims get very upset is because religion is all they have.
If you believe that this material world is of no benefit to you, then you will only value your goal which is God.

The problem is which version of the word of god do these Muslims subscribe to? You have different versions of the word of God. Islam is also split into over 60 branches (Sunnis, wahabi, Shiite, Alawi, Druze, etc.)

Now lets talk about suicide bombers and nukes.
Both are forbidden, you can't commit suicide nor can you kill someone with fire.

So Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-qaida and Hezbullah are not a Muslim based organizations?

Like what happened in Sept 11th many muslims have already condemned it, and it was an act of terror.
Many of the uneducated muslims (may God guide them) are running around declaring holy war.
Now this is something that a small group like Al Queda cannot declare, and the majority of muslims don't support them.

And how about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-qaida and Hezbullah? They have a HUGE following.

We as muslims are not doing enough to spread the true message of Islam which is peace. Thats our job as muslims.
Holy war is to be declared against those who have pushed us out of our homes, and stopped us from practicing our faith.

Problem is that Politics tends to get in the way and then HolyWar is called upon for POLITICAL reasons and not religious ones. Another problem is that those same politicians lie to the ignorant masses within their dictatoral regimes and brainwash them to Hate the US, Israel and the west in general.

In America muslims are given alot of freedom which is something I am very grateful for.

I've heard of Muslim organizations who intend on using that freedom to Islamify the US. I know this may be smoe paranoia in this but would still ike some feedback on this from you.
www.worldnetdaily.com...
wnd.com...

I believe the main issue that should be addressed at the moment is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Which no one has paid enough attention to, and its only going to get worse and worse.

Are you tryin gto tell me that Saudis and Pakistanis in 9/11 attacked the WTC because of the Palestinians plight?
I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be resolved and that it is getting worse but not because the US, Israel or the Europeans are not trying. It is getting worse because Palestinians want to destroy Israel and do not want peace with Israel.

Muslims see America as turning a blind eye to the Injustice Israeli's are inflicting on Palestinians.

So now the bias peeps out of the woodwork. Targeting Jewish children in a bus, bus-stop and religious celebrations is not injustice? Running an ongoing campaign of terror in parallel to feigning 'peace talks' is not injustice? Committing to agreements and reneging on them consistently (as the PLO did with Israel from 1993 to the present day and Lebanon from the early 1970 to the mid 1980s) is not injustice?

As America is a very good Ally with Israel, and one of their main financial aid.

Actually Iraq receives more financial aid in one year than Israel received in more than 5 years, in addition Afghanistan and Egypt receives a very large aid package.

Originally posted by colin_hal

Like you Mentioned Mecca is a religious site, not a military target.
The whole faith revolves around there, you would be destroying something so dear to us.
It makes me sick to hear people even considering it as an option.
Extremists always view the apposing as being flies.

I agree Mecca is religious and not a military target. The WTC is also not a military target.
If you knew the holy shrine of Mecca would be in jeopardy if fundamentalists continued to plan megaterror strikes targeting civilian targets on US soil or anywhere else, would you become more vocal, more active in your plight against those fundamentalists? Wouldn't it become your religious obligation and give you a motivation to fight those fundamentalists in your midst? To purify Islam and make it a religion of peace again?

[edit on 16/4/05 by JudahMaccabbi]

6,739 Israeli casualties, including 862 deaths, and 23,593 Palestinian casualties, including 2,233 dead

Palestinians injured +41,000 3West Bank4 :35.7% children, 32.4% by live ammunition, 64.9% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (16,673 cases, 28/02/02)
Gaza Strip 5 : c.20% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (6000 cases - 6/3/02)
UNICEF estimates 7000 children injured.6 "

25 (1 German) physicians / nurses / ambulance drivers killed while on duty (opening fire on ambulances/shelling of residential areas).10
425 PRCS and Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC) Emergency Medical Technicians and first aid workers injured (including 2 physicians). 121 ambulances were attacked and damaged.
36 PRCS and UPMRC ambulances destroyed.
197 attacks on PRCS ambulances by live ammunition, rubber bullets, and/or stones thrown by Israeli settlers.
991 incidents of denial of access to PRCS ambulances at roadblocks were reported.
85 Palestinian deaths due to prevention of access to emergency health care or treatment of chronic diseases. 290 counts of hospitals and clinics attacked and damaged. 71 emergency personnel and volunteers arrested since the invasion on 29 Match 11. During the long invasion in March/April 2002, UPMRC staff were stopped, detained and denied access up to 3 times daily, since April 2002 the mobile clinics severely obstructed.

12 Journalists killed by Israeli forces, (1 Italian, 1 British),
295 journalists wounded as a result of gun shots, physical assault or other means of attack,
167 journalists attacked by Israeli soldiers, 94 attacks on press and media establishments,
46 incidents of press and media equipment damaged19; beaten, detained, equipment confiscated or destroyed; 5 Palestinian journalists arrested and currently in administrative detention.20
31 March 2002: Ramallah and El-Bireh declared closed military areas preventing journalists from entering the area and demanding reporters within the area to exit immediately.
April 2002: International Press Association declares the West Bank the second most dangerous place for journalists to work after Afghanistan.

MoE reports 850 schools temporarily closed,
8 schools turned into military barracks.
185 schools were shelled and fired upon by Israeli soldiers;
11 schools completely destroyed,
9 vandalized.
15 schools used as detention centers and army barracks.
132 Palestinian students killed and 2,500 injured on their way to or from school
1135 school days have been lost because of Israeli attacks37.
During the long invasion in March/April 2002
54, 730 teaching sessions per day were lost due the complete cessation of classes.

Total income losses to Palestinian economy est. between $ 3.2-10 billion (income only, does not include cost of destruction of public and private property).
Daily domestic losses: $6.0 – 8.6 million/business day
Total wage income loss: $59.4 million
Unemployment: Gaza 67%, West Bank 48%
75% of Palestinians living in poverty (less than $2 a day): 84.6% in Gaza and 57.8% in the West Bank38
Economic losses forcing 69% of Palestinian firms either to shut down or reduce production39
51% drop in GNP.40 Israel prevents 125,000 Palestinians from going to work41. The World Bank estimates that in case of a solution to the conflict and lifting of the closure it will take at least 2 years for the Palestinian economy to restore to a pre-Intifada per capita income level42

If you look into it, there have been more Palestinian women and children killed then Israeli casualties, over all. - That's why there is a problem.

Also the fact Israel is in breach of the 4th Geneva Convention and as such the actions should be considered war crimes. (Targetted assasinations) Yet nothing is being done.

You can't have a rule for one and a rule for another - everything has to be fair.

If America bothered to take as hard a stance on Israel as it does the rest of the Middle East, you'd see a lot less terrorists against America. It's a simple way to solve it - treat everyone fairly. (THIS WILL HELP)

Think of it from this view: Israel will not let you use your own schools, it will not let you go to some of your Religious shrines, it has destroyed homes, broken several international laws and nobody stops them.

You would lash out - I know I would.

Then you get random attacks on Schools, Hospitals, houses, etc, beause they think terrorists live there - this kills your wife or kid...how would that make you feel?

There's a way to stop it happening and it is not by the path we're on.

(Statistics taken from the Guardian Newspaper).

Originally posted by Odium
6,739 Israeli casualties, including 862 deaths, and 23,593 Palestinian casualties, including 2,233 dead

Assuming this is true I would like to Know 1 thing. Out of these figues how many where combatants from both sides.

According to www.rense.com...
80% of the Israelis killed were Non-Combatants!
This is supported by more recent studies:
www.amicidisraele.org...
In which 64% of the Palestinians killed where combatants while 78% of Israelis killed are civilians. Just shows us the Palestinians target civilians while Israelis Target combatants.

25 (1 German) physicians / nurses / ambulance drivers killed while on duty (opening fire on ambulances/shelling of residential areas).10
425 PRCS and Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC) Emergency Medical Technicians and first aid workers injured (including 2 physicians). 121 ambulances were attacked and damaged.
36 PRCS and UPMRC ambulances destroyed.
197 attacks on PRCS ambulances by live ammunition, rubber bullets, and/or stones thrown by Israeli settlers.
991 incidents of denial of access to PRCS ambulances at roadblocks were reported.
85 Palestinian deaths due to prevention of access to emergency health care or treatment of chronic diseases. 290 counts of hospitals and clinics attacked and damaged. 71 emergency personnel and volunteers arrested since the invasion on 29 Match 11. During the long invasion in March/April 2002, UPMRC staff were stopped, detained and denied access up to 3 times daily, since April 2002 the mobile clinics severely obstructed.

How about this statistic - How many bombs and terrorists did Ambulances transfer from one place to another in the 'territories'? How many times was fire openned from the ambulances toward soldiers?

12 Journalists killed by Israeli forces, (1 Italian, 1 British),
295 journalists wounded as a result of gun shots, physical assault or other means of attack,

In combat many times it cannot be determined who shot whom - this data cannot be reliable.

5 Palestinian journalists arrested and currently in administrative detention

How many of the 'reporters' were directly supporting terrorist activities.

Total income losses to Palestinian economy est. between $ 3.2-10 billion (income only, does not include cost of destruction of public and private property).
Daily domestic losses: $6.0 – 8.6 million/business day
Total wage income loss: $59.4 million

How about Israeli economic losses? or does it matter?

Economic losses forcing 69% of Palestinian firms either to shut down or reduce production.

How about Israeli economic losses forcing companies to shut-down from loss of tourists? Again do you care?

51% drop in GNP.40 Israel prevents 125,000 Palestinians from going to work

Maybe the workers were stopped from crossing over to stop the daily killing of civilians in Israel

The World Bank estimates that in case of a solution to the conflict and lifting of the closure it will take at least 2 years for the Palestinian economy to restore to a pre-Intifada per capita income level/

The Palestinians initated the violence that lead to this. Lets take a look:
Arabs did not recognize Israel in 1948 and attacked Israel and lost. After Arab armies persuaded Palesitnians arabs to leave Israel so that the Jews can be pushed into the sea the Palestinian refugee problem evolved.
Again Arab agressions in 1967 lead to the war of 1967 Arabs lost West Bank Gaza and Golan heights.
Intifadah of 2000 See what happened? Will they ever learn?

If you look into it, there have been more Palestinian women and children killed then Israeli casualties, over all. - That's why there is a problem.

Lie!! See links above!

Also the fact Israel is in breach of the 4th Geneva Convention and as such the actions should be considered war crimes. (Targetted assasinations) Yet nothing is being done.

Assuming this is right so are the Palestinians for targeting civilians and using civilian areas to stage attacks.

You can't have a rule for one and a rule for another - everything has to be fair.
If America bothered to take as hard a stance on Israel as it does the rest of the Middle East, you'd see a lot less terrorists against America. It's a simple way to solve it - treat everyone fairly. (THIS WILL HELP)

That is what arabs would like to have you believe - The Arab Israeli conflict did not start because Israel attacked anyone but the opposite is true.

Think of it from this view: Israel will not let you use your own schools, it will not let you go to some of your Religious shrines, it has destroyed homes, broken several international laws and nobody stops them.

You would lash out - I know I would.

Then you get random attacks on Schools, Hospitals, houses, etc, beause they think terrorists live there - this kills your wife or kid...how would that make you feel?

There's a way to stop it happening and it is not by the path we're on.

(Statistics taken from the Guardian Newspaper).

How about this. Israel tries to make peace since 1993 and is greeted with suicide bombings. Israel returns Gaza, Jericho, Nabalus, Jenin, Tul Karem and Kalquilya which in turn become terrorist bases with the PLOs support. Bethlehem is returned to the Palestinians and the Christian Majority become a minority in under a decade. With a significantly higher percentage of non-combatants dead on the Israeli side what would you do? Lash out? I would. I would target terrorist leaders and close off all Palestinian access to Israel to stop this terrorist outrage. What would you do? Give them a state when their leading organizations vow for Israel's destruction?