Let me start of by saying peace upon you all.
I haven't come here to fight a war, I've just come here to have a dialogue.
So far I am happy to say that everything is well and I am thankful.
Assuming that you have replied in full to what I have written (JuddahMaccabi) I will now respond to your claims.
Every human being has good and evil within him, and I believe ignorance is what divides us and is the cause of alot of injustice.
The only way we can move forward is to have dialogues, leave behind our bias, and open our minds.
From what you've written so far I have come to the conclusion that you have been wronged, and you feel a great injustice to what you had to go
You have a good understanding about what goes on in the Middle East, but you have observed the information through one perspective.
It is human nature for someone to feel the need to protect and defend his own.
But if we wish to stand up for whats right we need to condemn terrorism whether its an Israeli child, a Arab child, or an American child etc
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said in Feb. 27, 1994:
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
Jewish Author Maurice Samuels said in p155 of his book 'You Gentiles':
"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because
we want a world of our own."
Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate:
"We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent."
(Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)
"We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better
for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world."
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must
be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time.
The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, head of the Israeli Shas party, 10 April 2001
"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them... It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You
must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."
"The Arabs slaughter Jews irrespective of the fight for the land. It’s in their blood. Genetic. I haven’t done a study, but I believe it. You
can’t believe an Arab even after they spent 40 years in the grave." - Likud MK Yehiel Hazan in the Knesset, Feb. 24, 2004
"I think these people [Arabs and Muslims] need to be forcibly converted to Christianity ... It's the only thing that can probably turn them into
human beings." [05/12/03] (Michael Savage on his radio show The Savage Nation
I won't quote everything please follow the links for more.
Now I have quoted some Anti-Arab bigotry that is spewed by Jewish extremists, I believe one of them was by a christian extremist.
Arabs and Muslims aren't the only people who can be terrorists or extremists.
Just like a white person isn't the only type of human being that can be racist.
We have to both agree on these rules otherwise we are both wasting our time and there is no point of carrying on with this topic.
We have idiots on both sides who are ruining chances for peace and if you don't believe that then we can't really get anywhere.
Its not just the Palestinians who are ruining the chances of peace, that is also something we have to agree to otherwise like I mentioned before, we
can't really carry on this discussion.
As I have the impression that you are a very smart individual I will attempt to clear your misconceptions.
But before I do, I will summarise what I have learnt from you.
- You are eager to learn more and not just following something blindly
- You're also a very intelligent person and well read
- You can engage in a serious discussion and provide evidence to backup your claims
- You have alot of good in you
Although I state your good points, you are looking at the Arab world in great negativety.
Maybe its because of your first hand experience of what happened in Iran, who are Persians, nonetheless muslims.
You claimed your problem was with islamic/arab fundamentalists.
Now what you have to understand is, the same negativety that you have which arised from first hand experience, is the same negativety that lets say a
"typical" Arab has against Israeli's.
Because of what happened to your ancestors you still feel some kind of animosity against Arabs/Islam.
Which will make you have a negative opinion of them.
Now whether you agree that Palestinians were forced out of their homes, and are under occapution or not. For arguments sake lets say that's true,
wouldn't you think Arabs are going to have that same negativity against Israeli's/Jews?
How about the 50 year war Arab countries had with Israel?
Isn't that going to create tension between the two?
Isn't that going to shape their ideas of what a typical jew is like?
Isn't that going to give them a good scapegoat to throw all the problems at?
What about if America is giving Israel financial and military aid till this day?
Isn't that going to also put them in the same bag?
Now stating all this, we can clearly see where the negativity has come from, its not something that came from nowhere.
You even said "there's no smoke without fire".
If someone treats you badly or there was some kind of tension between you, you tend to have alot of negativity towards that person.
Thats what war does, creates negativity but this negativity can be overcome.
However the middle east has seen enough wars, we have to start extinguishing the flames.
Start educating and stop violence on both sides to acheive our goal which is "Peace".
The majority of Arab/Islamic countries are run by dictatorships, and I believe that is being used as an example to invade them and control them and
Note I said control them, ultimately its going to be just like a dictatorship but it will be called a "democracy".
They have fancy names for everything these days.
Killing innocent civilians has been given the euphemistic term "Collateral damage".
You even stated that this war is in American interest:
The US does not want to take over the world but have influence on the most important countries for the US interest (this is true for every country).
But you stated that "this is true for every country". And I agree, the only reason Dictatorship run Arab countries don't abuse people on a wider
scale is because they don't have the capability.
They are only good at harming and abusing their own people. They and their supporters are the people of hellfire.
Every human being has a conscience, you can't say I was following orders.
Even in the Nuremburg trials the Nazi's excuse was "we were folllowing orders". NO! You have a conscience!
This is something that we have to realise when we are talking about war, we can't just throw this term around very losely.
You have a conscience, think about the people who will suffer, think about how it feels like to be in those peoples position.
Yes dictators need to be out of power, but we can't put peoples lives at risk. If anything we should be encouraging those people to rise up
themselves, this is a problem within their own country, it does not concern us.
Unless if there is something we want like oil but we needed a better excuse.
If you believe that its a good idea to go into every Arab/Islamic country to remove dictatorships.
Then you give suspicion for one to believe that you want America to control these countries and influence them.
There's no such thing as an ideal country, and ideal state, America has its upsides and downdsides like every country.
You are implying that America is perfect and arab/islamic countries are imperfect.
In reality they are both imperfect, America's has its freedom to an extent, now it seems that slowly certain freedoms are being taken away.
The patriot act is a good example.
So who are we to say, we're better than they are lets go bomb them and change their regime.
You have some outright extremist Americans praising the bombing of innocent civilians.
"America kicking some ass" is the term they use, "blow them up to Allah is another".
There are people who use these terms, "Sand 'n-word's", "Hook nose", "Kikes" etc.
I am disgusted when I see this done to jews, and I'm sure you're disgusted when this is done to muslims/arabs.
The majority of the people who support this war are those types of people.
The same ones that play heavy metal music in their tanks as they shoot everything in sight.
Please respond to my previous posts on this since I bring my story and these cases were prior to Zionism. I can bring you more examples as well.
I have looked at this link, and I found it to be very interesting, I got the idea that you kind of wanted me to respond to it.
It also says that the Quran is anti-semitic and that the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) killed between 600-900 men.
This is as you say prior to Zionism, but even your own sources will back me up on this. "While Jewish communities in Arab and Islamic countries fared
better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe"
This is a quote from the very same article. It tells us that overall Muslims treated Jews better than christians did.
Now that article on a whole isn't very balanced, yes it does quote some truths, but it does contain some bias.
Had I shown you an extremist Islamic source bad mouthing jews and spewing anti-jewish bias, you would say that this source is bias because its an
islamic extremist source.
I provided a link from this site to back-up what I was saying from your sources, so I don't get accused of bias.
First of all about the Quran being anti-semitic.
If you know anything about the Quran it wasn't revealed at one point, it was revealed throughout the prophets life time.
The time that it was revealed has to be taken in context.
It uses example to teach us how to deal with certain matters.
They quoted from the Quran 2:61, thats not fair they did not quote the whole verse.
Here is the whole verse:
[2:61] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as
beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt,
where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This
is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
This is infact a dialogue between Moses and the Jews. God is talking about the Jews that rebeled against Moses.
The other surah which they didn't quote is 5:64, which talks about the bad Jews who were blaspheming against God, not the entire Jewish
If you read on to 5:65 this is what you will see, that the Quran preaches Salvation for Jews and Christians:
[5:65] If only the people of the scripture believe and lead a righteous life, we will then remit their sins, and admit them into gardens of bliss.
Then they quote this verse (2:9798), which doesn't even exist in the quran, there are only 286 verses in that surah.
But no one ever talks about how anti-semitic the bible or the torah is.
I will quote some:
"For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days,
for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands (Deut. 31:29).
"So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the Lord your God by
keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. And they shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever (Deut.
Jeremiah recorded the Lord's warning to Israel: "I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. The lion is come up from his thicket ...
he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant" (Jeremiah 4:6, 7).
"Indeed all Israel has transgressed Thy law and turned aside, not obeying Thy voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath
which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him (Dan 9:11).
"Listen to the word of the Lord, O sons of Israel, For the Lord has a case against the inhabitants of the land, Because there is no faithfulness or
kindness Or knowledge of God in the land. There is swearing, deception, murder, stealing, and adultery. They employ violence, so that bloodshed
follows bloodshed (Hos. 4:1-2).
Isaiah proclaimed: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger ... I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I
give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets" (Isaiah 10:5).
Isaiah 1:4 'Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers'
Ezekiel decries the sin of the people who had brought idols into the Temple area, where they prayed to other gods and even worshiped the sun. "Hast
thou seen this...? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land
with violence" (Ezekiel 8:17)
Jeremiah (3: 8 – 10):
“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery, I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her
treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord.”
Jeremiah (5: 7 - 8):
“How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then
committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses
They were as fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his neighbor's wife”
Matthew (23: 25-- 33):
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of
dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous and say:
“If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.”
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”
About the prophet killing 600-900 men, this story is repeated both amongst some muslims and jews.
Some jews say it clearly proves that islam is anti-semitic.
Some muslims say that this clearly proves that jews cannot be trusted.
These are misconceptions, so let us clear them up.
This is a very complicated story here is a good source:
To try and simplify the story, what happened basically is a certain tribe of Jews made a pact with the prophet (PBUH).
They would help each other in the time of warfare.
However these group of people were treacherous they disobeyed the pact and joined with apposing forces to wipe out the muslims.
When they were finally besieged they were to be trialed for treason.
A mortally wounded Sa'd b. Mu'adh gave the arbitration that the men should be should be executed, and women and children turned into slaves.
This was seen as something very treacherous, this certain Jewish tribe rebeled against the prophet, and against the Medina agreement.
They sided with the pagans to wipe out the muslims once and for all.
If this was an attack on Jews Per se, then many of the other Jewish tribes would have been wiped out too.
Now what happened when the Japanese attacked pearl harbour? Which was also seen as something very treacherous.
Well two Atomic bombs were dropped on two different Japanese cities.
Killing of Jews, read up on these verses:
250 Levite princesses; of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. "their wives, sons and little children were swallowed up by the ground",
then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40
24,000; Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9
70,000; Israelis for sinning "So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time; and there died of the people from
Dan to Beer-sheba seventy thousand men." (2 Samuel 24:10-17)
then another 14,700; Israeli protesters killed by plague who object to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 Jewish princesses. Num 16:41-49
About Muslims supporting Nazi's, lets ask the question "Did hitler have jewish soldiers?"
Why do you mention nothing about the "Palestinian regiment"?
When Jews and Palestinians fought alongside against the Nazi's.
How long did the jews live in peace in Morroco? 2,800 years!
Why is this not mentioned?
When the nazi's asked for a list of all the jews in morroco, King Mohammed V, grandfather of the current king, responded: "We have no Jews in
Morocco, only Moroccan citizens."
How many Jews did Turkey rescue in the time of the Holocaust? 100,000!
France rescued 15,000.
Here is a letter by Dr. Anna Kohen praising the Albanians for their protection of jews:
So if we want to look for negative material about Jews, Muslims, and Christians we can find it.
Because criticising is easy.
Anyone with a hammer can go around smashing things, but to build something you need architects, you need smart skilled people.
What I have learned from all of this, that yes the Jews were treated harshly on all sides.
Nevertheless Muslims have treated Jews the best and your own sources will support this.
I have alot of respect to Jews, and understand their suffering.
What happens in So-called "Muslim" countries I can't defend.
Iran is a good example of a badly run country. It is an extremely corrupt country as are a lot of the "muslim" countries.
And about Jizyah, (tax on non-muslims). Well we as muslims pay Zakah which is money that is used for charity, which is part of our faith.
Non-muslims pay Jizyah. Women and children are exempt, as are religious scholars.
Jizyah was part of money paid for protection, as part of compensation for not joining the army.
If you couldn't pay the Jizya you were also exempt.
Tax was 10% of their earning only.
Both muslims and jews required to pay this amount in tax and were both met by force if they did not pay up.
Collecting Zakat (Muslim tax) Book 17, Number 17.18.31: "Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Abu Bakr as-Siddiq said, "If they
withhold even a hobbling cord I will fight them over it."
Also muslims had to enlist in the army, non-muslims did not have to enlist.
So they were also paying with their lives.
Please read this article which is very interesting:
is common knowledge. Islam was a beacon of light at the time that Europe was in in its 'Dark-Ages'.
That is why Israel must continue to exist. Jews can never rely on other countries or religions for their well-being. Israel must be strong and viable
in order to make sure that no such persecution take place again against the Jews. If tomorrow France will decide to persecute Jews there will be a
country to escape to - Israel. Jews did not have this luxury previously.
I also agree. Jews do need a country. But do you believe that the Palestinians have a right to stay where they are or should they leave?
The truth is that when Jews refer to Arabs in Israel they call them 'our cousins'. We are both Semites and have similar languages. This is common
Thats very good to hear.
What I would like to say to you is that, we really don't have anything against jews.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has sparked alot of hatred on both sides.
I do not believe in the killing of innocent civilians and it is clearly prohibited in our religion, but then again when do you see muslims
implementing their religion?
We are not suppose to hold people to account for sins they haven't done.
Suicide is prohibited, mutilation is wrong, hitting someone in the face is wrong, because its a creation of God.
So how about blowing someone up?
The Quran calls to patients.
We can't go around killing non-combatants, and say well they do that to us.
Well those people aren't our teachers, this is not Islam.
If you go to any Arab country you will see the amount of corruption and they don't shy away from calling themselves "Islamic".
Ask any Iranian about bribery in his country, which is un-islamic but it still happens.
Yes Jews are being used as a scapegoat.
However after september 11th, muslims have started to wake up, slowly the true muslims will take over once again Inshallah (God willing).
After saying all of this, I hope we both agree that no country should have or use nukes.
Every country should be disarmed, if we wish there to be no more hostility.
And we should have a conscience before we instigate wars or call others onto war.
I will reply to the rest of your thread very soon.
Peace be upon you.
[edit on 22-4-2005 by colin_hal]