Roswell Crashed Flying Saucer Sham Story That's Still Being Sold

a reply to: Arbitrageur

True. Brazel never knew the shape of the object. Only assumed it was saucer/disk shape to get the reward. Newspapers used saucer and disk as an attention grabbing headline. Although they did quote it at times.
Marcel just said there was so much debris.

Brazel said that he did not see it fall from the sky and did not see it before it was torn up. So he didn't know the size or shape...

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: Arbitrageur

True. Brazel never knew the shape of the object. Only assumed it was saucer/disk shape to get the reward. Newspapers used saucer and disk as an attention grabbing headline. Although they did quote it at times.

What needs to be publicized more are other first-hand eyewitnesses, like Brazel's 14 year old daughter who handled the wreckage along with her father. But we almost never hear what she said. Why? Because her statement confirms the debunking and nobody who is trying to sell this story wants the truth to come out from witnesses like her.

www.roswellfiles.com...

why doesn't Randle quote Bessie- the only person whom he has talked with that was actually on the scene?

Because, what Bessie said was:

"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other... Sticks, like kite sticks, were attacked to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors... The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil... I do not recall anything else about the strength or other properties of what we picked up. We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it into sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks... We speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember dad (Mac Brazel) saying 'Oh, it's just a bunch of garbage.' "

When Bessie was shown the November/December 1990 issue of the International UFO Reporter (IUR), Pages 6, 7, and 8 of that issue showed the Roswell photographs. She later wrote:

"The debris shown does look like the debris we picked up."
(Jan 10, 1994 letter from Bessie Brazel Schrieber)

Even Randle admits that those photographs are of ML-307 radar target(s) and weather sounding balloon(s).

Marcel just said there was so much debris.

He said there was a whole debris field of lots of little pieces of an indescructible material.

originally posted by: crayzeed
4. The biggest one, Jesse Marcel was the bases intelligence officer (they don't make people intelligence officers because they're stupid) he would have known what a balloon and it's array were. Apart from the official line at the time Marcel would have followed orders to cover the false story and later in life he came out and told the truth.

Jesse Marcel said he found a huge debris field with of lots of little pieces of indestructible material. The only people who can hear him say that and not think he's a complete idiot would be other idiots.

You also need to read Irving Newton's eyewitness account to get another perspective on what Jesse Marcel said.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Yeah, I've tried to focus on the firsthand witness like Brazel, the discoverer of the actual debris, saying rubber strips, sticks, foil, etc. which was publicly recorded in the newspaper on the date shortly after the event and can not be coincidentally the exact same material of Earth built service flights or experimental/test flights. A spacecraft from billions of miles away not having one single piece of exotic material that can't be explained? I find that ridiculous.
Like you had said at one point, this amazing "indestructible" material found all in small pieces? That's illogical also. Brazels description in the newspaper from 1947 being a reliable source of a public record from the event and time should be at the top of the list. Not tales from 30 years later. Unfortunately for believers in this alien spacecraft have to believe Stanton Friedmans selling of an alien saucer. Of course he would sell that, that was his career at the time as a UFOologist. Also authors of this story profiting.
There are plenty of other witnesses that were there saying what was found was mundane.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Roswell was never considered an important UFO case (or even a real UFO case) until Friedman got ahold of Jesse Marcel in the late 1970s. The dead alien bodies stories came even later once Marcel's tales were not exciting enough.

As an example the Report on UFO Wave 1947 was written some 20 years after Roswell in 1967 and has this to say [p55 of the pdf]. Even then there was a suspcion that this was a secret expirement.

While newspapers still carried a few apparently genuine UFO reports -- often buried among a mishmash of superficial nonsense -- the kind of stories that made headlines after July 8th were the kind of the sort the reader found impossible to take seriously. If a report wasn’t an out-and-out hoax, it was an embarrassingly obvious mistake.

One of these mistakes, given the widest possible publicity, had its origins near Roswell, New Mexico, when a farmer named William W. ("Mac") Brazel discovered the wreckage of a disc on his ranch near Corona, early in July. After hearing news broadcasts of flying saucer reports, Brazel, who had stored pieces of the disc in a barn, notified the Sheriff's Office in Roswell, who, in turn, notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the Roswell Army Air Field intelligence office.

The remnants of the disc were taken to Roswell Field for examination Through a series of clumsy blunders in public relations, and a desire by the press to manufacture a crashed disc if none would obligingly crash of itself, the story got blown up out of all proportions that read "Crashed Disc Found in New Mexico."

According to AP on July 8th, public information officer Lt. Walter Haught made an announcement of the discovery:

“The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group o the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the cooperation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chavez County.”

The effect of this reckless statement was equal to an atomic detonation; results were immediate. While newspapers deluged the air base for additional information, a search party was sent out to scour the landing site for additional fragments; the collected remains of whatever it was that had crashed on Brazel’s ranch were taken to Eighth Air Force headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas. There, Brigadier General Roger M. Ramey tried to clarify matters by first explaining that no one had actually seen the object in the air; that the remains were of a flimsy construction; that it was partially composed of tinfoil; and, finally, that it was the wreckage of "a high altitude weather device."

Warrant Office Irving Newton, a weather forecaster at the Fort Worth Weather Station, had identified the crashed "disc" as the remains of weather equipment used widely by weather stations around the country when sending balloons aloft to measure wind directions and velocity. There remains the possibility that some super-secret upper-atmospheric balloon experiment had crashed near Corona, which would have accounted for all the confusion and secrecy involved in its recovery.

Whether the pictured balloon equipment carried widely in the press was actually a photograph of the recovered fragments remained a question, but news editors should have been on their toes:

And a little over a decade later 'In Search Of' covered the incident declaring evidence in an FBI document describing the debris as from an "experimental kite".



I still think Twinings September 1947 declaring a "lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits" seals the deal.




But I don't think it will convince those who desperately need to believe and they are the people targeted by the grifters.

a reply to: mirageman

This has been the same 'ole story for me up to today, no hard evidence.

a reply to: quintessentone

Kal K. Korff wrote a brilliant dissection of the "Roswell Incident" that should have put the myth to rest ages ago. His book, The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know (Prometheus Books, 1997), includes an exceedingly thorough examination of all the evidence and all the so-called "evidence" and the credibility of the witnesses.

If that wasn't sufficient, Karl T. Pflock independently conducted his own investigation for Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe (Prometheus Books, 2001).

Both authors began as believers but chose to follow the evidence wherever it led. As it turned out, the truth was that the Roswell Incident had been blown all out of proportion. It should have been little more than an obscure footnote to UFOlogy.

a reply to: Shadowhawk

I guess if you are a "true believer" then you tend to ignore any sceptical research or develop a resistance to anything suggestive of a prosaic explanation. Roswell is also the Holy Grail of Western ufology. Too big to fail for a 'true believer'.

Strangely, we don’t hear too much about Roswell in the new ufo disclosure movement. Or maybe I just missed it.

Maybe they’re ashamed of Roswell. I think the people behind this attempt at making it legit wants to avoid Roswell.

Makes sense since Roswell is so divisive within the ufo world.

This is Internet, a bunch of anonymous keyboard warriors around the world without public credibility of any sort - yet, trying to dissect highly research-demanding topics, and yes - I am another of those keyboard warriors with too little free time, but still spending the same valuable time to argue with people about topics, that should have been concluded DECADES ago.

ANY critical thinker doing research in this topic any lengthy time, has already concluded that THIS IS MOST LIKELY TRUE. Anything else is concluded by either a moron or a heavily biased individual (for whatever purpose, I don't care).

The amount of evidence is mind-blowing, and again - individuals arguing that there is no evidence, can't critically deduce available information. Sorry for them, but they are wrong.

1. JESSE MARCEL stated himself ON VIDEO that he had to lie about the weather balloon sham. It's in the MIRAGEMAN post above but I don't think MIRAGEMAN himself has cared to view it.

2. PHILIP CORSO wrote an entire book about it. His acumen is undeniable and he was sharp as they come.

3. MULTIPLE WITNESSES including the farmer, his wife and kids stated that the material was not a weather balloon - as the material was not possible to rip no matter how hard they tried.

4. MILLIONS of FIRST HAND EXPERIENCERS of UFOs, Aliens, Abductions, Cattle Mutilations can't all be lying or was dreaming. Just because one prefer an answer, it is equally plausible for a person to remember a weather balloon as it is to remember a flying disc. If 10 people report to see a ZEBRA on a Bicycle, that is what they most likely saw, even though it sounds ridiculous.

Half-wit "science"-morons use secondary assumptions to eliminate first-hand observations. This is completely not science-based. Just because you can't explain how a phenomena exist, doesn't mean your observed report is faulty. Your conclusions are. Why would they crash, going around half the Universe? I don't know, but surely they do. Very few people here can draw a schematic of a 13th gen Intel CPU and that is technology invented by a civilisation that went on horseback 100 years ago.

UFOs are here. Aliens as well and Earth is not flat. This is easily deduced with facts at face-value. Don't make it harder for you, because you are most likely not capable of doing strict valuable analysis using earth-based science. UFO crafts are not "next gen", they are multiple civilizations ahead of us. According to Lou Baldin, aka "the Sleeper", some of these crafts were living biological entities in itself and had awareness integrated in its material. They could self-heal and was intutitive controlled which included that the crafts could read the occupants emotions and intents. If the driver wanted, it could explode the craft, maybe to prevent technology to land in wrong hands. The pilot might not have been compatible with our atmosphere and knew "he" would succumb, henceforth, a complete obliteration of the craft was necessary.

Government has tried to cover the UFO-phenomena since day one and very clever individuals have planted false witnesses and information as well, to confuse and divide public opinion. And we can all agree, they have been very successful in doing so.

Hesitation and disbelief comes from insecurity in trusting data. There is simply nothing an official figure would gain from telling the truth regarding UFOs except public ridicule. Think about that for a second.

originally posted by: mryang
1. JESSE MARCEL stated himself ON VIDEO that he had to lie about the weather balloon sham. It's in the MIRAGEMAN post above but I don't think MIRAGEMAN himself has cared to view it.

Mack Brazel also said the weather balloon story was a sham because he had seen weather balloons before and they weren't like what he found. And of course he and Marcel were both right, it was no ordinary weather balloon, it was part of a much larger type of experimental balloon associated with project Mogul.

2. PHILIP CORSO wrote an entire book about it. His acumen is undeniable and he was sharp as they come.

Corso's story that common technologies were reverse engineered from an alien crash makes no sense, because all of those technologies have a traceable history on earth which have nothing to do with being reverse engineered from alien craft.

3. MULTIPLE WITNESSES including the farmer, his wife and kids stated that the material was not a weather balloon - as the material was not possible to rip no matter how hard they tried.

You mention the farmer's kids. Read what the rancher's daughter Bessie Brazel recalled from when she handled the material with her father when she was 14 years old:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

MILLIONS of FIRST HAND EXPERIENCERS of UFOs, Aliens, Abductions, Cattle Mutilations can't all be lying or was dreaming.

I'm not even going to get into that in this thread because it's not relevant to Roswell.

a reply to: mryang

I'll just stick to Roswell and ignore your other ramblings.

1. JESSE MARCEL stated himself ON VIDEO that he had to lie about the weather balloon sham. It's in the MIRAGEMAN post above but I don't think MIRAGEMAN himself has cared to view it.

Marcel said in the interview.

...they took pictures of course. They had a whole flock of microphones there. They wanted some comments from me. But I wasn't at liberty to do that. So all I could do is keep my mouth shut and General Ramey is the one who discussed or told the newspapers, I mean the newsman, what it was and to forget about it. It is nothing more than a weather observation balloon. Because which we both knew differently....

Marcel had no need to know about Mogul. Nor do strips of unbreakable foil [ironically broken and scattered across the pasture] appear to prove an alien spacecraft crashed there. Plus of course the testimony of Sheridan Cavitt, who retrieved the debris with Marcel said he never believed it was anything more than the wreckage from a balloon.



Irving Newton at Fort Worth also recognised that it was the remnants of a balloon.

The FBI Memo of July 8th 1947 states

THE OBJECT FOUND RESEMBLES A HIGH ALTITUDE WEATHER BALLOON WITH A RADAR..

Then we have the comments by Brazel's daughter Bessie.

The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other... Sticks, like kite sticks, were attacked to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors... The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil... I do not recall anything else about the strength or other properties of what we picked up. We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it into sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks... We speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember dad (Mac Brazel) saying 'Oh, it's just a bunch of garbage.' "

roswellfiles.com

Even Mac Brazel's account confirms much of what his daughter said

Brazel said that he did not see it fall from the sky and did not see it before it was torn up, so he did not know the size or shape it might have been, but he thought it might have been about as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter.

When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds.

There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil.

roswellfiles.com

It seems like Marcel was the only person who saw the wreckage believed it was extra-terrestrial? How was he even remotely qualified to make such identification?

2. PHILIP CORSO wrote an entire book about it. His acumen is undeniable and he was sharp as they come.

As Arbi pointed out Corso's book is full of historical misinformation.

3. MULTIPLE WITNESSES including the farmer, his wife and kids stated that the material was not a weather balloon - as the material was not possible to rip no matter how hard they tried.

See above. They might not have said weather balloon. But they claimed it was a "balloon". As did Cavitt, Newton, Ramey and the FBI.

4. MILLIONS of FIRST HAND EXPERIENCERS of UFOs, Aliens, Abductions, Cattle Mutilations can't all be lying or was dreaming.

Yes people see UFOs. Yes cattle are found mutilated. But that doesn't mean aliens did it. Nor is there any proof aliens even exist. And this certainly doesn't prove aliens crashed at Roswell.

Finally, the Twining Memo in Sept 1947, two months after Roswell, mentioned earlier, multiple time.

...a lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these objects"

People forget that Project Mogul was classified, and that is, if anything, is what they were hiding, NOT dead aliens and a crashed saucer.

a reply to: mryang

How about the firsthand telling by Brazel, the discovered of the debris, in public record through an unbiased newspaper article in 1947 which every piece of debris matches a simple balloon flights out of Alamogordo 60 miles away from the crash site at this exact time period? I never had a believer finally admit it was only an astronomical coincidence that this matches debris from a billion mile spacecraft. You too? Even Kevin Randle just said read my book and like I said Stanton Friedman ignored me.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

MILLIONS of FIRST HAND EXPERIENCERS of UFOs, Aliens, Abductions, Cattle Mutilations can't all be lying or was dreaming.

I'm not even going to get into that in this thread because it's not relevant to Roswell.

The weak argument once again of "look at all these cases" rather than approach each one individually, which is how they need to be looked at. You can shut them down by asking them for ONE PIECE of evidence out of these millions of cases in 70+ years that has unbiasedly and is freely available to be studied. The person that has that and goes on to show it could change history and be endlessly rich. I could understand with only a handful of claims, that would be unreasonable to expect, But MILLIONS of claims and not one single piece? Anyone using logical thinking would question. It's called using simple critical thinking skills that we all have and should use. Unfortunately that's not what happens. Naive, gullible, and wide-eyed wonder wins out. Sure, it's a great fantasy to have and you have an exciting story. Once you bring in facts into it by physical evidence unbiasedly and freely studied it becomes reality. Does that really need to be explained like you have to tell your child there are no monsters? That seems to be the mentality.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

OK, before they came out and said it was project M, did any of the skeptics try and debunk or question the weather balloon explanation? Nope!

I have no doubt Charles Moore could have told you about project mogul if he was allowed to do so.

Charles Moore was a reference for excluding a balloon as the cause for this story for over a decade, as he was approached by ufo researcher in 1979 and his statement was published in the first roswell book:

“When asked whether the Roswell device might have been a weather or other scientific balloon, Moore replied: ‘Based on the description you just gave me, I can definitely rule this out. There wasn’t a balloon in use back in ’47, or even today for that matter, that could have produced debris over such a large area or torn up the ground in any way. I have no idea what such an object might have been, but I can’t believe a balloon would fit such a description.'”

Moore defended himself by saying that he was given an inaccurate description of the debris site . Fair enough .He got some support by Karl Pflock.
The description which he was given by William Moore was not published , which is one of many flaws of the book.
Still arkward as Moore later told , that he always that it was one of his balloons.

originally posted by: TheMadScientist2
Moore defended himself by saying that he was given an inaccurate description of the debris site .

He probably was. Even though these photographs are accurate as far as I know, I would say that these do NOT show a balloon:




So if anybody was shown those or given a description of those and asked them if that was a balloon, I would expect them to say no, because that would be my answer too. In this drawing by Charles Moore, the balloons are the things at the top of the drawing and those don't appear in the photos:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
Charles Moore drawing of a typical service flight during the first phase of Mogul:

Also keep in mind that UFO mystery sells much better than UFO skepticism, so when a "UFO researcher" asks a question to put an answer in their book, they are usually not fishing for a skeptical response. Just listen to how Jeremy Corbell questions the pilot who made the FLIR video to "debunk" the skeptics. It sounds from Corbell's interview that skeptics have been thoroughly debunked, but in reality the "UFO researcher" asking the questions has loaded them to get certain answers he wants, not representative of the truth.

Still arkward as Moore later told , that he always that it was one of his balloons.

Meaning he always thought that ever since he was given an accurate description?

Here's a couple of examples of newspaper clippings reporting objects looking nothing like "discs" or "saucers" being reported as such. Both taken from newspapers of early July 1947.






It obviously seems strange in the 21st century to use the terms. And is natural to believe they are referring to circular shaped UFOs.

But this is why it is important to place things in context and back in 1947. Calling these objects "discs" or "saucers" was partly driven by $3,000 rewards on offer (worth around $30,000 today!) and partly in the wake of Kenneth Arnold's sightings being dubbed "flying saucers" in the media.

Like mulder I want to believe however this thread puts the final nail into the roswell coffin for me.