Roswell Crashed Flying Saucer Sham Story That's Still Being Sold

originally posted by: stevieray
a reply to: Ectoplasm8
When your “more logical” debunking story contains toy makers building sensitive military equipment, random ‘leftover’ Chinese tape, senior military officers who can’t recognize Chinese writing, the obligatory overzealous reporter, standard dig at Stanton Friedman …… the story may be more convoluted than the UFO version.

A more logical and sensible answer because as I've shown the factual data of the Mogul program existing as compared to no factual data with UFOs just words after 70 YEARS. To make the fantasies of UFOs a reality you need physical evidence, not just words.

The military farming out to toy companies with a history of building kites or companies like Goodyear to produce balloons that have years of knowledge behind their products is a reasonable request.

Though I am a believer in the UFO phenomenon being a legitimate mystery likely involving extraordinary phenomena, as I investigated Roswell very closely, IMO, the known information supports the Op’s conclusions.

I’d say about 70 to 30 percent of the known information supports Roswell NOT being an alien crashed craft. And that Project Mogul happens to be a rare time the American military establishment is telling the truth.

The Ops link telling the details about PM is significant, and the book Roswell and the Will to Believe by Karl T. Pflock and even the research of a believer in Roswell, Kevin Randle, demonstrates that Roswell is not any alien crashed saucer event.
In doing research, it turns out the major witnesses are very shaky.

originally posted by: billxam

originally posted by: crayzeed
4. The biggest one, Jesse Marcel was the bases intelligence officer (they don't make people intelligence officers because they're stupid) he would have known what a balloon and it's array were. Apart from the official line at the time Marcel would have followed orders to cover the false story and later in life he came out and told the truth.

So we're supposed to believe that Marcel was so stupid that he thought a UFO had crashed and wasn't able to see it was a balloon. If that's the case then we were very, very fortunate that those idiots back then didn't blow us all to kingdom come. Or was the official story the real one? Or was it the first one? And if it was a top secret device why oh why would they bring truckloads of enlisted to scour the desert for scraps and not use someone with a little more security clearance to pick up the pieces?

Every bit of information about the subject is suspect at this point.

I wouldn't say every bit. But the passage of time and the willingness of certain people to confabulate has resulted in a modern myth.

Sheridan Cavitt was the intelligence officer who accompanied Marcel to the Foster Ranch to look at the debris flatly denied what he saw was anything other than a balloon in a written statement.



Meanwhile, there were no mentions of dead bodies from Marcel, ever. That wasn't until the 1980s when aspects of the "Aztec UFO Crash" story began to spill over into the Roswell mythos as Marcel's story was no longer exciting enough to keep it alive.

A similar pattern has developed with Rendlesham. Which some 40+ years later has also grown arms and legs.

There's also testimony from Irving Newton, a warrant officer and weather forecaster, who was photographed with the debris at Fort Worth.

... I was met at the General's office by a Lt. Col. or Col. who told me that some one had found a flying saucer in New Mexico and they had it in the General's Office. And that a flight had been set up to send it to Wright Patterson AFB, OH., but the General suspicioned that it might be meteorological equipment or something of that nature and wanted it examined by qualified meteorological personnel.

The Col. and I walked into the General's office where this supposed flying saucer was lying all over the floor. As soon as I saw it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying saucer. I was told it was.

Several people were in the room when I went in, among them, General Ramey, a couple of press people, a Major, I learned to be Major Marcel and some other folks. Some introduced Major Marcel as the person who found this material.

I told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN. I believed this because I had seen many of these before... The balloon was made out of a rubber type expandable material and when launched was about six to eight feet across. When the balloons got to altitude they expanded to twenty feet or more, the target was used for radar reflections and I believe each leg of the target was approximately 48 inches. It resembled a child's Jack (like a child's ball and jacks set) with a metallic material between the legs. The legs were made of material appearing to be like balsa wood kite sticks but much tougher.

While I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were alien writings. There were figures on the sticks lavender or pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no rhyme or reason. He did not convince me these were alien writings.

I was convinced at the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and remain convinced.
I remember hearing the General tell someone to cancel the flight, the flight to Wright Patterson.
While in the office several pictures were taken of Major Marcel, General Ramey, myself and others.
I was dismissed and went to my office to resume my normal duties.

During the ensuing years I have been interviewed by many authors, I have been quoted and misquoted. The facts remain as indicated above. I was not influenced during the original interview, nor today, to provide anything but what I know to be true, that is, the material I saw in General Ramey's office as the remains of a balloon and a RAWIN target.

www.roswellproof.com...

originally posted by: DupontDeux

As Mogul Flight Engineer Charles Moore said in his affidavit- "I can think of no other explanation for Roswell than one of our early June service flight balloons."

Project Mogul has never made sense to me as an explanation.

You are telling me, that a top secret project about balloons with microphones-crash was mistaken for something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, and military intelligence then WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to create a cover story that is WAY CLOSER to the thing they are trying to hide?


Nope, not buying it.

To me it is way more likely that the story about it being a Project Mogul-crash is itself a cover story.

As per the quote, Charles Moore can think of no better explanation for Roswell than a Mogul balloon. It makes sense then, that it would be the best likely candidate for a cover story, too.



What doesn't makes sense is trying to hide having a blue butterfly, by yelling l "my butterfly is purple!" when everybody thinks all you have is a parrot.

Could you specify what it is the government is trying to hide? Is it blue butterflies? You didn’t make that part known.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I remember that UFO 'flap' where the US shot down a UFO over canada.

We were told it was a chinese spy balloon.

It was a hobby balloon.

But the White house spun the Chinese spy balloon farce to save face. But as usual the tin foil hat enthusiasts as they always do take the ball and run with it. I'm Still waiting for Steven Greers inevitable decade old disclosure.

But people still fall for it. We live in a world where David Icke is an author. However I blame one man for the resurgence of this UFO/alien conspiracy nonsense.

His name is Chris Carter.

The creator of the X-Files.

a reply to: mirageman

My father worked at White Sands in the late 50s - 80s He was a GS-15, Engineer. He knew alot about what went on at the base.

He said Roswell was a weather balloon from tests at the base.

He also said that the story had been very good for Roswell, a little podunk town in the middle of noplace.

I grew up hearing about Roswell. And the Socorro sighting/crash/flyover. Never heard a single word about bodies at Roswell, nor about Dulce. Saw weird stuff at Kirkland AFB. Doors into the side of mountains, for example.

Daddy also said people that saw UFOs were looking thru a beer bottle telescope.

And then one sunny Sunday afternoon, he was working in his peach orchard out back and low and behold, a tic-tac (cigar shaped) silver and silent was just hoving there above him. As he watched it just sorta turned and zoomed off, lickedy split. He ran to get binoculars (this was around 1972, no cell phones) but it was gone. He reporteded it to a contact he had at the base. They were all paranoid about Russian spies, which had been caught out on the range more than once during the cold war, even tho' he knew they didn't have that kind of tech, and neither did we.

Someone from El Paso that worked at the base also reported the same kind of craft on the same Sunday afternoon.

I asked him where his beer bottle scope was, he was not amused.

It changed his thinking for good.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels
a reply to: mirageman

My father worked at White Sands in the late 50s - 80s He was a GS-15, Engineer. He knew alot about what went on at the base.

He said Roswell was a weather balloon from tests at the base.

He also said that the story had been very good for Roswell, a little podunk town in the middle of noplace.

It put the little town of Roswell on the map. Especially putting THEY CAPTURED A FLYING SAUCER in the headline, which they didn't capture anything. Only a rancher thought he found one and they ran and took liberties with his claim. Even before having an official military weather officer identify the debris.
They still have a parade today and celebration. The UFO museum etc. and it's a tourist money maker.
newmexiconomad.com...

www.ufofestival.com...

a reply to: billxam
But that is the story you are supposed to believe and it still stinks today. Please, please, don't come with official documents to prove any theory. Everyone must understand, when the "officialdom" brings forth any documents, THEY are the people that actually own the equipment (typewriters, printers, official stamps etc. etc.) so they have no need to "forge" any document they can just produce it as if it was produced 70 years ago.

a reply to: CoyoteAngels
Not to disparage your father but. I think his testimony is false as the supposed balloon was not a weather balloon, it was a spy balloon. They were NOT released from Roswell either.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Yes, I've been to the festival and the museum. Even have an autographed copy of one of Stanton Friedman's books and we had a nice conversation. My daughter is a photographer and got a nice pic of him. We also talked to Malcom McDowell, who was a guest speaker that year. He asked her favorite film he'd been in, (she was only 17) and she said 'Tank Girl'.... he was stoked! Nobody EVER said Tank Girl, but he looked at her and said yeah, he could see the resemblance, her platinum blonde mohawk she was rocking.

We had a blast at the UFO Festival that year.

I grew up in NM. I can talk about the Land of Enchantment for hours.

a reply to: crayzeed

Please google a map of New Mexico. You will see White Sands Missile Range takes up a great big chunk of the state.

We did not have have high altitude spy balloons, yet. These weather balloons were a project working toward advancing that capability.

What part of great big experimental balloon, satellite and missile base right next door to Roswell do people miss?

a reply to: CoyoteAngels

I don't see anything wrong with the festivals and museum. They bring in tourist money, and I view them as more for entertainment and fun than anything. As for Good 'ole Stan Friedman. One of the original researchers into Roswell. He was a great speaker and entertaining too. But he rapidly learned how to deliver what people wanted to hear to make his talk circuit appearances bring in the $$$.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: billxam
But that is the story you are supposed to believe and it still stinks today. Please, please, don't come with official documents to prove any theory. Everyone must understand, when the "officialdom" brings forth any documents, THEY are the people that actually own the equipment (typewriters, printers, official stamps etc. etc.) so they have no need to "forge" any document they can just produce it as if it was produced 70 years ago.

Everything can be fabricated and made up today, even to an extent in the mid 90s. That's why I posted what I had recently found. The Alox toy company which had no skin in the game and the guy posting the information about a kite company for his article that were unrelated to the military, showing a connection was real that they were making radar targets for the Army Corps. If I had access to Goodyear or General Mills records or maybe searched online, I could possibly find a mention by them having to produce balloons for the military at the time. Another example of Mogul materials supporting the existence of the program separate and outside of the military.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: CoyoteAngels

I don't see anything wrong with the festivals and museum. They bring in tourist money, and I view them as more for entertainment and fun than anything. As for Good 'ole Stan Friedman. One of the original researchers into Roswell. He was a great speaker and entertaining too. But he rapidly learned how to deliver what people wanted to hear to make his talk circuit appearances bring in the $$$.

I don't see anything wrong with it either. A tiny obscure little town capitalizing on a headline to bring in tourist and money. But I was disappointed with Stanton Friedman being a scientist and not following protocols of a typical scientist or scientific minded person. Heavily relying on verbal evidence rather than physical. Verbal and you have a story, physical that's been analyzed and you have a fact. But then again, he made quite a bit off the story. Can't blame him for that. So many people, especially today, are void of independent thought and don't research stuff for themselves.

The main witnesses have been exposed as liars by Kevin Randle, himself still a believer in Roswell. The undertaker, who was not really an undertaker, and the famous mystery nurse who never existed, and Frank Kaufmann, who was exposed as a forger and liar by Randle. Randle, If memory serves, still believes because of some of the military witnesses who started to tell tales of dead aliens.
www.physics.smu.edu...


MM is right; people, for psychological reasons, confabulate, particularly Marcel's family talking all kinds of nonsense about him long after his death.

To me this seems more like a cover-up.

Even David Grusch said Roswell was legit.

The official government line is that it wasnt anything. So trying to act like you're "not a sheep" by believing it was just a radar reflector, is literally falling in line with the Shepherd.

The disinfo is that its explained mundanely.

Not the other way around. Believe what you want to believe I guess.

There are tons of witnesses and documents to back it up.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So, this is what bothers me sbout this case. The military misidentified wooden sticks and foil to be a flying crashed disc? Howvdoes thst happen?

As far as I know, the breaking story saying flying disc was was from the military. Are they that stood to think that bits of foil and wood were s crashed disc?

originally posted by: JumpTheGun76
a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So, this is what bothers me sbout this case. The military misidentified wooden sticks and foil to be a flying crashed disc? Howvdoes thst happen?

As far as I know, the breaking story saying flying disc was was from the military. Are they that stood to think that bits of foil and wood were s crashed disc?

You have to place yourself back in July 1947 and not look at this from a 21st century perspective.

Flying Saucers/Disks were not assumed to be extra-terrestrial spacecraft back then. The press had coined the phrase just a week or so before in the wake of Kenneth Arnold's now famous sighting. But the media was not talking about these 'saucers' as alien spacecraft until slightly later.

For me the biggest clue that Roswell produced no material of any value is the Twining Memo of Sept, 23rd 1947 to Brigadier Schulgen of the AAF. Where he even concedes that "the phenomenon is real".

If a real alien spacecraft had crashed in Roswell in July of 1947 then he would have known about it. He was visiting New Mexico between July 7th -11th 1947.

Yet he specifies there was no evidence...

...Due consideration must be given the following:-..The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these objects[

originally posted by: JumpTheGun76
a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So, this is what bothers me sbout this case. The military misidentified wooden sticks and foil to be a flying crashed disc? Howvdoes thst happen?

As far as I know, the breaking story saying flying disc was was from the military. Are they that stood to think that bits of foil and wood were s crashed disc?

Brazel and Marcel were familar with finding weather balloons consisting of one balloon, a radar target if used all intact on farms. Like the pics below.


One common theme between both men is the size of the debris field and all the shiny pieces of the material broken apart and strewn all over the desert. "There was so much of it." by Marcel and "They came upon a large area of bright wreckage" by Brazel. That would have been unusual. First off, how would this unbreakable strong material be broken apart across the desert in pieces if it was so indestructible and couldn't be cut, bent, or broken? Also, Charles Moore was experimenting with the number of radar targets that could give a successful signal back to the V-2 radar receiver. He would attach several targets which would account for the large shiny debris field that they walked up on. The material being described by Brazel as a lightweight bundle matches foil and paper targets too.

a reply to: mirageman

Foil was around in 1921, so most people in America would have known what foil was well before the crash. Wooden beens are just that, wooded beams. How the hell cam the military thinking scattered foil snd wood was a flying disc? It makes no sense at all!

In this day and age, with more people with high clearance saying that governments have retrieved crashed ufos, then of course roswell could have been a cover up.

I am just not buying thst military mistook foild and wood for a disc ufo.

It's becoming more and more obvious thst governments know more about ufos thsn what they are saying. No matter what people say, the evidence has pointed to that fact for years.

I think this could be an official slow disclosure we are seeing.