SCI/TECH: Cannabis medicine 'causes harm'

stumason, you are obviously too concerned about yourself to realize that making this drug legal would make it even more available to kids.

Right. You obviously have not paid any attention to a word I have been saying. Not surprising, considering .

Why would it make it more available? Has legalisation and control of anything improved it's availability to children? I take it that children can just walk into a store and buy 10 cans of stella can they? Maybe where you live, but not here mate.

That is a really crap argument Muaddib.

I have a young child myself, so I am far from selfish. I live for her. I hold down a $45k+ a year job as a telecoms engineer, and do in excess of 48hrs a week.

Lazy Hippy? Not likely.

Mental problems? Only when idiots talk crap about that which they have not got a bloody clue.

Keep trying to cover the real effects of marijuana because of your own selfish, immature reasons.

What "real" affects? Care to fill me in, because as a user myself, I really do not see any of these supposed reasons you keep vomitting out of your mouth. Apart from the obvious risks of smoking, none of the other supposed health risks have become apparent in the years I have been chuffing.

To Everyone,

Ok enough. Let’s maintain our focus on the thread topic, please no more flaming. Thank you...

Originally posted by stumason


I have a young child myself, so I am far from selfish. I live for her. I hold down a $45k+ a year job as a telecoms engineer, and do in excess of 48hrs a week.
.................

I have seen personally people messing up their lives because of that drug, including a college student who would go to class still under the effects of the drug. He was expelled because he would always fall asleep in class because he was high, althou his grades were never really good so he wouldn't even be able to graduate.

Not every adult might have the same side effects from this drug....which to me kind of sounds like some people just try to find any excuse they can think of...just to try to get others to accept this drug...

Anyways, marijuana has worse effects on developing kids, and young adolescents...but as always some idiot will try to claim that he/she is not affected that much by the drug...

I do hope that your daughter never finds where you keep your drugs...and i do hope that you don't actually ever use the drug in your house, even when your child is not home.... The drug does not clear fast enough from rooms, as some people might think, and the smell and some of the effects the drug gives will linger in a house for hours.

Children are very inquisitive, and curious; this curiosity normally drives them into finding everything in a house a parent might think is safely hidden from them. I find anyone who has a child and keeps such illegal drugs in the house as very unresponsible. If you don't agree that's fine...you don't have to agree.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by Muaddib]

Better than leaving alcohol or prescription meds lying around, which can kill.

Should she ever (and she won't trust me, I am responsible enough, even if I might smoke round the house after she goes to bed) find it and ingest it, the worst that will happen is she will be slightly ill and/or go to sleep. There is no way on Gods earth she would come to any harm.

I am far more concerned by the myriad of other things we keep around our houses and on the streets that could cause her harm.

Let me re-assure you, even if you don't believe I am not a waster-stoner hippie, that I am well aware of my responsibilitys as a parent and take them very seriously.

I think we should agree to disagree on this one. As I am not going to convince you that it is safer than anything else, and you most certainly are not going to sway me with a "What about the children! Please somebody think of the children!" campaign (a la Rev. lovejoys wife from the Simpsons) that has very little basis in fact and is based on emotion and illogic reasoning.

What i find as having"very little basis in fact and is based on emotion and illogic reasoning" is that anyone would try to make excuses trying to make legal an illegal drug which has a track of destroying lives.


[edit on 6-4-2005 by Muaddib]

What i find as having"very little basis in fact and is based on emotion and illogic reasoning" is that anyone would try to make excuses trying to make legal an illegal drug which has a track of destroying lives.

No, it doesn't. I know, personally, in the very room I am sitting in (The Network operations Centre for a large telecoms company) at least half the people here have tried it or do still use it.

We all earn $40K+

I also know plenty of people outside work who have done it/still do it. All, and I mean all, have good jobs and good lives.

What I do know destroys lives are the people I know who drink heavily, or do smack or crack. My gf was a heroin addict, and her life has been ravaged, and it is because of me that she has kept straight. One of my former best friends got heavily into drink, and his life is going no where, he gets violent and has been to court several times for criminal damage and fighting.

The only time you see a stoner in court, is for possession.

I do not know ONE person, who uses Canabis, that has had their life wrecked. And I know alot of people.

You cite your former college mate. He was an idiot. Going to class stoned AND falling asleep.

He deserved what he got for being a retard.

It wasn't the drug that did it, it was him being an irresponsible idiot who couldn't wait until after class.

And it is fools like him that shade people like you against having a chuff, and make the rest of us look like fools.

Originally posted by stumason

stumason, you are obviously too concerned about yourself to realize that making this drug legal would make it even more available to kids.

You uh... I think that's wrong. I mean... when I was a "kid" there was never a time that I couldn't get weed in my hands in under 20 minutes if I wanted... alcohol was much harder to get...

Some goes for other drugs. I mean with most other stuff you had to "put in an order" and you'd get them within a couple of days but if you're in to drugs then you know how to get them. Pretty easy as it stands. I think legalizing the stuff might make it harder for underage users to get it in fact though there's a whole lot of factors we could be over looking because we've never actually tried to legalize it. I wonder how many juvenile users smoked it before it was made illegal?

I know that underage smoking in the 40's and before was very popular. Maybe even a larger percent than we have today? After all, there was no legal smoking age back then.
-S

In Memoriam Of The Topic: "SCI/TECH: Cannabis medicine 'causes harm'", Rest In Peace

While I think the study was bogus, it was still an interesting topic while it lasted.

Alas, it seems to have suffered unrecoverable burns from the flames that engulfed it and tormented it so cruelly.

Good bye, SCI/TECH: Cannabis medicine 'causes harm', you were so young and full of life, and we hardly knew ya.

May you somehow find peace in that great discussion forum in the sky.

I am curious about the nature of these alledged "symptoms", of anxiety and paranoia, which the 2 participants experienced.
What exactly were they paranoid about?
Could their anxiety have been increased by their environment, or other factors related to their participation in the study, and not just to the drugs themselves?
What are the set parameters used to determine whether or not an individual is paranoid or anxious? I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on this board would fit one or both descriptions, with or without the help of legal/illegal drugs.
The information given about this study is too vague to be of any value beyond the typical propaganda b.s.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who accept these types of articles at face value. To those individuals, here is a little info with which to contrast the "dangerous" drug Marijuana.

The following is a list of the possible side effects of the top 3 dispensed drugs in the USA in 2003 (in decending order):

#1. Hydrocodone and Acetaminophen (also known as Vicodin)-for pain
Lightheadedness, dizziness, sedation, nausea, and vomiting, drowsiness, mental clouding, lethargy, impairment of mental and physical performance, anxiety, fear, dysphoria, psychic dependence, mood changes, ureteral spasm, spasm of vesical sphincters, urinary retention, skin rash, pruritus, psychic dependence, physical dependence, and tolerance Hydrocodone bitartrate may produce dose-related respiratory depression by acting directly on the brain stem respiratory center. Hydrocodone also affects the center that controls respiratory rhythm and may produce irregular and periodic breathing.

#2. Lipitor-for high cholesterol
Constipation, flatulence, dyspepsia, abdominal pain, chest pain, face edema, fever, neck rigidity, malaise, photosensitivity reaction, generalized edema, nausea, gastroenteritis, liver function tests abnormal, colitis, vomiting, gastritis, dry mouth, rectal hemorrhage, esophagitis. eructation, glossitis, mouth ulceration, anorexia, increased appetite, stomatitis, biliary pain, cheilitis, duodenal ulcer, dysphagia, enteritis, melena, gum hemorrhage, stomach ulcer, tenesmus, ulcerative stomatitis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, cholestatic jaundice, bronchitis, rhinitis, pneumonia, dyspnea, asthma, epistaxis, insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia, somnolence, amnesia, abnormal dreams, libido decreased, emotional lability, incoordination, peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial paralysis, hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesis, hypertonia, arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis, myasthenia, tendinous contracture, myositis, pruritus, contact dermatitis, alopecia, dry skin, sweating, acne, urticaria, eczema, seborrhea, skin ulcer.

#3. Tenormin-for hypertension
Bradycardia, cold extremities, leg Pain, dizziness, vertigo, elevated liver enzymes and/or bilirubin, hallucinations, headache, impotence, Peyronie's disease, postural hypotension which may be associated with syncope, psoriasiform rash or exacerbation of psoriasis, psychoses, purpura, reversible alopecia, thrombocytopenia and visual disturbances, reversible mental depression progressing to catatonia; an acute reversible syndrome characterized by disorientation of time and place; short-term memory loss; emotional lability with slightly clouded sensorium; and, decreased performance on neuropsychometrics
Atenolol, like other beta-blockers, has been associated with the development of antinuclear antibodies (ANA), and lupus syndrome.

And then we have Marijuana (or Cannabis) which, in the USA, is classified as a Schedule 1 drug along with Heroin and other opiates, coc aine angel dust, '___', peyote, "shrooms", etc. What were its side effects again?

Oh yeah, paranoia and anxiety...much worse than a rectal hemorrhage or spasm of the vesical sphincters I'm sure. Then again, maybe the weed just made the participants realize that there is a lot to be paranoid about.

Quote: "I just don't see how Legalizing another harmful substance is beneficial to society."

You are being Biased! It has already been stated numerous times that Cannabis has Some Negative aspects & MANY Positive Aspects! It needs to be used with *MODERATION* like any other Substance or Food! Don't you see that it EXISTS & that you can't stop people from Talking about it! Despite the fact that it is Illegal - *DEMAND STILL EXISTS*! So in that case you have the Mafia step in to Supply it! Now THAT is the Real BAD NEWS! Criminals will have no Qualms about selling you one thing & calling it another! They will have no Qualms about selling you Cannabis grown entirely on CHEMICALS (Quite a radical departure from Organic Cannabis - let me tell you) or even Laced! They have no Qualms about Using Violence - THIS is the REAL PROBLEM!

Don't you realize that EVERYTHING is part of the Free Market? Regulation makes *INFINITLY* more Sense than Prohibition! It is Ridiculous to call a Natural Substance "EVIL" - what are you saying that Nature & God was Wrong & made a Mistake?


Muadibb - once again Alcohol is LEGAL - Television is LEGAL - Having Consensual Sex without outright Payment for it is LEGAL - Cigarettes are LEGAL (get that - you are doing the same thing more or less Burning & Smoking & Inhaling a Plant - Plus Laced with Chemicals by the Tobacco Industry - this also is not too Healthy for you - Yet Legal! The FDA doesn't seem to be throwing a fit about this)! Can you explain this? Is the Solution really to Prohibit & Spew Propaganda & throw Non-Violent people who pay Taxes & Contribute to our Society in *JAIL* for Consuming this Plant? Or is the Solution to actually EDUCATE people of the Effects of Certain Drugs & REGULATE their Availability? I find this Reasonable Approach VERY Beneficial to Society!

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Muaddib
....This is another of the excuses some people hang on to trying desperately to make their vice legal.....

If making marijuana legal would stop kids from taking it..... Why in the world do so many kids get high on common everyday items, such as glue and paint....

[edit on 6-4-2005 by Muaddib]

one big problem with your arguement, (yep you already knew that)
If glues and paint were only sold to adults, then they wouldn't be able to get them. were you actually thinking that making MJ legal would put in on the candy shelves at 7-11? we are talking liquer stores only... same reqs to buy alchohol.

and by the way... I dont smoke... So there goes that arguement also...
just because someone thinks it ought to be legalized or decriminalized doesn't make someone a "smoker" it makes them a realist...


[edit on 7-4-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

Several year ago, I came across some research that indicated that marijuana was known to alter the DNA chain and kill off the Y chromosome in men. It was a report from the mid seventies. Anyone else heard of this? I am trying to find the source.

It also said that the side effects from the DNA damage was usually not noticeable until the third generation of lab rats had been born... That is... giving the parent rats the equivalent of one "joint" per day had effects on their grand children, but not them visibly.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
one big problem with your arguement, (yep you already knew that)
If glues and paint were only sold to adults, then they wouldn't be able to get them. were you actually thinking that making MJ legal would put in on the candy shelves at 7-11? we are talking liquer stores only... same reqs to buy alchohol.

and by the way... I dont smoke... So there goes that arguement also...
just because someone thinks it ought to be legalized or decriminalized doesn't make someone a "smoker" it makes them a realist...
[edit on 7-4-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

A realist huh?....

How many kids are able to get false identifications and they are able to get their hands on alcohol? or they get an oder friend to buy alcohol and then drink it themselves or share it with younger friends?.

Decriminalizing the drug is not going to make it harder for kids to find it. It will make it easier and even legal.

If an 18 year old buys a joint, and if it was legal, he could very well share it with younger friends. We all know that kids do this. "Realists" know this happens everyday with this and other illegal substances, and even with legal substances.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Muadibb - once again Alcohol is LEGAL - Television is LEGAL - Having Consensual Sex without outright Payment for it is LEGAL - Cigarettes are LEGAL (get that - you are doing the same thing more or less Burning & Smoking & Inhaling a Plant - Plus Laced with Chemicals by the Tobacco Industry - this also is not too Healthy for you - Yet Legal! The FDA doesn't seem to be throwing a fit about this)! Can you explain this? Is the Solution really to Prohibit & Spew Propaganda & throw Non-Violent people who pay Taxes & Contribute to our Society in *JAIL* for Consuming this Plant? Or is the Solution to actually EDUCATE people of the Effects of Certain Drugs & REGULATE their Availability? I find this Reasonable Approach VERY Beneficial to Society!

You see, it is irrational excuses like "cigarettes are legal and they are harmful too" which makes me think that so many people here are thinking irrationally.

Marijuana not only has more tar and more cancerous substances than cigarettes, but it affects people's concentration, coordination, it distorts time and makes people irrational.

People don't get more cancer from marijuana because they don't smoke as much marijuana as some heavy smokers, but it still can develop cancer.

People's judgement are changed by this drug, and something they normally wouldn't do, under the effects of this drug people will do them.

Originally posted by jezebel
..............
And then we have Marijuana (or Cannabis) which, in the USA, is classified as a Schedule 1 drug along with Heroin and other opiates, coc aine angel dust, '___', peyote, "shrooms", etc. What were its side effects again?

Oh yeah, paranoia and anxiety...much worse than a rectal hemorrhage or spasm of the vesical sphincters I'm sure. Then again, maybe the weed just made the participants realize that there is a lot to be paranoid about.

The list you gave about legal drugs which have side effects that resemble those of marijuana are prescription drugs. What so many people in here want is for marijuana to be a legal substance, not a prescrition drug.

BTW, there are other side effects that marijuana gives, not just those two you mentioned...and would you want kids to be under the effects that some of those prescription drugs give? Marijuana gives many of those same side effects as those prescription drugs you mentioned. If you wouldn't want your kids to be on the streets, or driving or doing other stuff under the effects of those prescription drugs, why would you want them having the same side effects when they are under the influence of marijuana?


[edit on 7-4-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
A realist huh?....

How many kids are able to get false identifications and they are able to get their hands on alcohol? or they get an oder friend to buy alcohol and then drink it themselves or share it with younger friends?.

Decriminalizing the drug is not going to make it harder for kids to find it. It will make it easier and even legal.

If an 18 year old buys a joint, and if it was legal, he could very well share it with younger friends. We all know that kids do this. "Realists" know this happens everyday with this and other illegal substances, and even with legal substances.

You are really streching now, you know that don't you...
simple fact... if it was legal, then LESS young people would be able to get ahold of it... (not saying that none could, but much less)
false IDs or any sharing aside... would happen anyway... and does now...

but the fact remains: teenagers would all testify (as well as endless board members) that smoke is way easier to get than beer. and the ONLY reason that is, is due to the black market for one, and not the other...

think it thru Muaddib...
if it were legalized, then the only place to get it would be from a liquer store or pharmacy... where the licensed vendor would not want to be punished for selling to an underage (same principal as cigerettes). yes, some would risk it, just like some risk selling beer to kids... but it would remove the financial benefit for the blackmarket, so it would find new money making ventures to taint...
the kids would all be stuck trying to get an adult to buy it for them, and that NEVER worked for me when I was a teenager trying to buy beer. So I think we can safely assume (not risky assumption) that Kids would have no better luck with smoke.
I am not saying that anyone should do it, only that reality states that it will exist (it grows like a weed) , so why not try to control it rather than start an expensive and useless effort to remove it from the earth.

as to the topic at large, (since i have ventured away from it).
the report is very biased and tainted, they didn't use empirical science, or accepted testing methods...
not to mention a worthless waste of money and time...
of course pot will cause paranoia in some people... it is illegal and reaks to high heaven... anyone smoking it is a walking talking (mumbling) bust waiting to happen...

Originally posted by jrod

the price the people have to pay, $100 for 7 grams, a one week supply is too steep for anybody but the upper class. Car payments with insurance dont even add up to that much for an economy car.

Many people buy cannaibis every day, there is money to be made. If it really causes cancer and impairs judgement then you would think the "shadow government" would be putting that stuff in our drinking water to keep us mellow, dumb, sick and dead before breeding.

Arguing about kids getting their hands on it is void. Some of those deliquent kids got some wit. They know how to rob a store of cases of beer and cartons of cigarrettes keep what they can handle and sell the extras to older fud adults at a bargain price. And if they get caught they dont care because they know they have to do something really bad to go to jail. Needless to say finding a bag of goddies is not a problem for under the age of responsiblity kids and again they do not have to worry about possesion laws.

Lazarous, your argument in itself is erratic, because kids will find any way to get their hands on alcohol. All they have to do is pay or ask a friend who is older to buy them or acquire for them drinks.

You are saying that legalizing is the solution to a drug that does cause problems to kids and adults too, despite the fact that some people claim it doesn't cause any real problems.

We have had adults in these forums make all sorts of claims, including one person who would say that he could drink a 6 pack or more and drive and he wouldn't have any side effects from drinking. He would scream and continue to defend his position and would bash at the police for making roadblocks trying to stop people like him from driving....

People make all sorts of excuses in order to defend their vices.

Since people like to rely so much on statistics, here is some information for your perusal.

According to Monitoring the Future data, approximately one in six (15 percent) teens reported driving under the influence of marijuana, a number nearly equivalent to those who reported driving under the influence of alcohol (16 percent), despite higher prevalence of alcohol consumption among teens.4

Excerpted from.
www.mediacampaign.org...


---edited for errors---


[edit on 7-4-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
The list you gave about legal drugs which have side effects that resemble those of marijuana are prescription drugs. What so many people in here want is for marijuana to be a legal substance, not a prescrition drug.

BTW, there are other side effects that marijuana gives, not just those two you mentioned...and would you want kids to be under the effects that some of those prescription drugs give? Marijuana gives many of those same side effects as those prescription drugs you mentioned. If you wouldn't want your kids to be on the streets, or driving or doing other stuff under the effects of those prescription drugs, why would you want them having the same side effects when they are under the influence of marijuana?
[edit on 7-4-2005 by Muaddib]

I do believe that the original topic of this thread, before it was hijacked, was about pharmaceutical drugs containing THC, and not about legalization as a whole.

by FredT
Swiss researchers have discovered that 2 out of eight men taking drugs containing THC develop paranoia and anxiety. The researchers said that the public needs to be aware of potential side effects. One UK pharmaceutical company that has a license to develop such drugs indicated that the level used in the study was higher than they would use.

Since the ONLY side effects mentioned in the original post were paranoia and anxiety, that was all I addressed. If you have other clinical studies you would like to present, go ahead. Otherwise, why not have a little respect for the author of this thread and stay on topic, instead of continually trying to redirect the discussion?

Originally posted by jezebel

I do believe that the original topic of this thread, before it was hijacked, was about pharmaceutical drugs containing THC, and not about legalization as a whole.

Since the ONLY side effects mentioned in the original post were paranoia and anxiety, that was all I addressed. If you have other clinical studies you would like to present, go ahead. Otherwise, why not have a little respect for the author of this thread and stay on topic, instead of continually trying to redirect the discussion?

I actually had stayed away from this topic, it was not me but others who began to talk about "crude cannabis" which is marijuana.... but as always i get accused of redirecting the purpose of the original post when i present evidence that goes agaisnt what other members in here were saying.

Perhaps before you start accusing people, you should read some of the responses that other members were giving.....

Here is the first response to the original poster's submission.

I've talked to many legitimate medicinal cannabis users, and they say that "crude" cannibis is by far the best for treating thier pain. People need to wake up and realise that marijunana is one of the most benin drugs in the US. The way I see it is EVERY other drug when taken in excess causes you to be sick, and marijuana doesn't do that.

From there on members started talking about marijuana and not about medicines based on the cannabis plant, and btw, these medicines are derived from the cannabis plant. A discussion on the effects of cannabis are not that far from the purpose of the original post.


[edit on 7-4-2005 by Muaddib]