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Next U.S. President = AntiChrist?

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posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5Which both refer to the same 1260 years referred to here:
Oh? it is 1260 years? Gosh from everything I have read from those in the know, I thought it was 7 years. I can breathe easy.




posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 01:51 AM
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Who Hal Lindsey, the two idiots that wrote left behind, your local pastor that needs to go back to study Eschatology, or a bunch or cons trying to sell stuff on the internet?

Just some of the guys/groups that believed the same thing I do:

Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran)
Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican)
John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647)
Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist)

You beat my people in the know, it's called Historicism, it's what these folks believed, a seven year tribulation comes from Futurism, and was made up by the Jesuit Order to throw people off the track of looking to Rome.

Don’t believe me look it up, its historical fact.


Oh and as far as breathing easy goes, the 1260 days ended in 1798, the end could come at any time now, there is no 7 year time table to look at and have it all figured out. Like a thief in the night; remember?


[edit on 4/3/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 03:02 AM
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Well, you just made him wet his pants. Are you happy.





[edit on 3-4-2005 by Lord Altmis]



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by Lord Altmis
I think the climate is ripe for a potential world world war 3. Which country do you think is most likely to pursue another Hitler/Napolean style move across the world.

Perhaps Bush is the last U.S. president, he did say he needs 8 years to complete his purpose.


It is possible that anyone in a position to run this country, the fourth and final beast of Daniel, is an anti-Christ, or of an anti-Christ spirit. Here is a quote that I should mention that was specifically brought up by Wesley in writing his Explanatory Notes on Revelations:


Verse 11:

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

“He is not yet come, though he cannot be far off for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast.”

Date of publication: 1755


Only one country I know of that has become a new nation and a world dominating power since 1755, around 1798, and that one signed its Declaration of Independence in 1776.

That country had a division of power (house and senate) No crowns on its horns (no kings) and started out from humble origins and based on Christian beliefs (appearance of a lamb).

Part of the problem with Futurism is that it has people looking for individuals as the beasts/anti-christs, but if you read your scripture, Daniel is very specific that the beasts, the sections of the statue, and so on are all kingdoms/countries.

Paul was pretty specific in stating there is not a single anti-Christ, but many:


1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


Not sure if this it true or not but it is something that Jamuhn stated in the following thread, and if true show a base tie between the US and Rome:


originally by Jamuhn from this thread Why don't politians do their job and represent us.

The only LAW that we have in the US is our Constitution and British common law. British common law is a very old tradition of laws that was passed down to us while we were still a colony and after we gained our independence. Though, there are a lot of people out there who still think we are a British Colony and have written books about it. I'm not very knowledgable about this part of the, dare we call it "conspiracy," but British common law contains the law necessary to create this corporation.

USC = United States Code
"United States" means - (A) a federal corporation...28 USC 3002(15), Ch. 176. It is clear that the United States...is a corporation... 534 FEDERAL SUPPLEMENT 724. The United States of America is a corporation endowed with the capacity to sure and be sued, to convey and receive property. 1 Marsh Dec. 177, 181. Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed.

The United States Government is a Foreign Corporation with respect to a State. Black's 6th.

The "United States" is a corporation created on February 21, 1871 under the name "District of Columbia," 16 Stat. 419 Chap. 62 (reorganized June 11, 1878) The "United States" is a bankrupt organization and a de facto government (not just and lawful).

From 1786 to 1789 the United States were a confederation; after 1789 it was a federal nation.

Notice that between 1786 and 1789 the United States was plural, United -- States. After that it became singular "United States" as a name.

British common law established the practices of the state, and is derived from past cases in Britain (some even before America was discovered) that describe what system of law we will have. The only thing that can supercede common law is what is defined in our constitution. But there are two distinct constitutions, the one that the US Corp. uses is missing the 13th amendment prescribed in the original constitution. The 13th amendment states that no person of this country can bear a foreign title of nobility. This would ultimately bar lawyers who are agents of the British crown.

The US no longer institutes law but instead the corporate policy in the USC and UCC.

On a side note, British common law ultimately derives from Roman Civil Law.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Who Hal Lindsey, the two idiots that wrote left behind, your local pastor that needs to go back to study Eschatology, or a bunch or cons trying to sell stuff on the internet?
Well pastors too and also the experts on ATS, I guess you are calling ATSers cons. But I wasn't rude to you, so why are you being rude to me?


Just some of the guys/groups that believed the same thing I do:
That's an impressive group but the last one lived 214 years ago, Pope John Paul II who died yesterday didn't believe as your list of people did, and they never made it to pope.


You beat my people in the know, it's called Historicism, it's what these folks believed, a seven year tribulation comes from Futurism, and was made up by the Jesuit Order to throw people off the track of looking to Rome.
And I don't know why you're challenging me here, I am pretty sure I accepted your correction and stood corrected.


Oh and as far as breathing easy goes, the 1260 days ended in 1798, the end could come at any time now, there is no 7 year time table to look at and have it all figured out. Like a thief in the night; remember?
Well I didn't know this, so now I learned something new again. What you're saying is that the prophecies all happened 207 years ago, well all of it anyway except for the end. So were there more than 1260 days somewhere that explains that there is an end that happens after 1798?



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 03:47 PM
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The Anti-Christ will be a Religious/Spiritual figure not a Politician...He will come as a Wolrd Savior and unite all religions as one, and Politicians have no power for that. Do you honestly think the Arab world will follow an American President (or any western President) as the return of Iman Madhi ??



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
The Antichrist will be charismatic (not Bush) extremely intelligent and supposedly will have everyone at his feet. (not Bush)

That leaves Bush out of the running on this one.

Yes, there will be other presidents after Bush, and if we're lucky with different ideologies.


I think I may have made a similar point myself somewhere.

Why would the US president be the Anit-christ? It seems to me that the US president serves not to wield power but to draw attention away from it.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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In my opinion, the Antichrist will not be American, at all... There have been many "Antichrists" throughout history.... Each of them has left an impact on this world, but the real Antichrist will appear to be Christ like and will deceive millions of people, especially those who are not saved. There is one who stands out from all others who have been thought to be the Antichrist and his name is Maitreya. It is scary how much this man compares himself with Christ and how many believe his ways... Here is a link if you are interested....

home.sprynet.com...

Icelandia



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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What are you talking about? The CURRENT president is the anti christ!



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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I will admit, I have had my theories about President Bush, but I think he is paving the way for the Antichrist to do his work. He has made it possible, that is for sure.

Icelandia



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I wasn't rude to you, so why are you being rude to me?


No maybe not overtly rude, but saying that you know from those, "in the know”, implies that I do not know what I am talking about. Perhaps I misread what it is you were saying, and if so I then apologize.


Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Well pastors too and also the experts on ATS, I guess you are calling ATSers cons.


I do not believe that any guy off the street that has been weaned on Futurism is a con, most are retelling what it is that they have been taught, but this does not make it right. The ones that are cons are those that should know better, “the ones in the know”, as you stated. They are the ones that are out there selling the books, movies, and videos that push Futurism. They are making money at the expense of peoples souls. The reason that Futurism is so popular is that it pushes the following things:

A) The time frame can be predetermined based on this well know set of events:
.........1) The rebirth of Israel
.........2) The rebuilding of the third temple
.........3) The appearance of a so-called all-powerful anti-Christ.
B) Based on the above time frame people can live life as normal and only worry when they see those events unfold
C) It allows for a rapture to rescue anyone professing to be a Christian from persecution and torment.
D) It is the view that most self-centric and worldly Christians want to hear and believe for the above reasons.
E) It caters to borderline Christians that believe they can outsmart God and live the wrong way right up to the last second then change sides in a big hurry.

Now if you believe in God and his word, you should believe the following:


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


So follow my logic here, if the plan is so well known that there are tons of books, movies, and video’s about it, then how is it so deceptive as to deceive even the very elect?

It cannot be Futurism, this is too well know and widely accepted and pushed by too many churches that for some reason have abandoned what their founders originally believed, which was Historicism. So I would look to see why Historicism was abandoned, there is nothing logically flawed with it. As a matter of fact there was a time when then only school of prophecy I had ever been exposed to was Futurism, but once I started to study prophecy more closely I found this to be the most biblically and historically accurate school of interpretation. That is the reason why it has been hidden away for the most part, because it was the truth. The enemy does not want you to know the truth and so it has been covered up, this is the end time deception



Before I say anything On the next comment, I would like to say that I went to Catholic school when I was young, and I don’t have any kind of axe to grind with anyone I know that is catholic, so this is not about bashing Catholic Christians, this is simply about telling the truth and denying ignorance. Sorry but telling the truth is not always politically correct, and sometimes good people can get caught up in things that are not so good and not even realize it.


Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
That's an impressive group but the last one lived 214 years ago, Pope John Paul II who died yesterday didn't believe as your list of people did, and they never made it to pope.


This statement tells me one of two things, either you do not understand what I am talking about, or you did not read my posts well. Those men lived during the persecution by the Fourth beast of Daniel, which was Rome, lead by the Pope who is the Little Horn of Daniel and therefore what most today would call an Anti-Christ. Don’t believe me lets look a bit at Daniel:




The vision of the statue:
Dan 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

The interpretation of the vision:
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.



The kingdoms in order
Gold = Babylon
Silver = Medo-Persian
Bronze = Greece
Iron = Rome
Clay + Iron = the world today




Vision of the 4 Beasts
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


The interpretation of the vision:
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.




The kingdoms in order
Winged Lion = Babylon
Bear = Medo-Persian
Winged leopard = Greece
The Diverse Beast of Iron Teeth = Rome

Ok have I established that the forth beast is the kingdom of Rome?

Now watch what happens:




Vision of the Little Horn, What most consider the Anti-Christ
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.



The interpretation of the vision:
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



SO this horn MUST do the following:
1) Come up out of Rome
2) Start with 10 kingdoms, but subdue 3 of them (Vandals, Ostrogoths, and the Visigoths)
3) Speak great things against the most High (to much to even mention)
4) Persecute the saints or the Christians (the Dark Ages and the Inquisition)
5) Change the times and Laws (calendars, holidays, Sabbath day, the Ten Commandments)
6) Exist for 1260 Years (538 AD to 1798 AD)

This is Rome under the rule of the Popes, it fits every criteria EXACTLY.

So why would I take the word of a station of men that are the ones being accused of being the little horn to say they are not? That is like asking a murderer if they are guilty of committing a murder. The people that I listed are more reputable BECAUSE they never were Pope. If you noticed, in previous posts I keep referring to it as Jesuit Futurism, because this school of prophetic interpretation was brought about by the Jesuit Order (a Catholic Monastic Order) to keep people like Luther from pointing the finger at Rome and saying that is the Forth Beast, and the Little Horn, that is the Anti-Christ.


Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What you're saying is that the prophecies all happened 207 years ago, well all of it anyway except for the end. So were there more than 1260 days somewhere that explains that there is an end that happens after 1798?


There are still a few things to happen, like the Mark, the second coming, the judgment, increased world disasters such as the tsunami, things like that. There is NO set time line for these things to occur. This is why God said it would be like a thief in the night, that we might discern the season, but not the exact time. Some prophecies, such as the mark, I see in the loss of freedom occurring in this country. To be honest HR418 fits almost every criteria to be the Mark if it passes the senate.


Just out of curiosity, look at what it is your asking me here, then look up above at the reasons I say that Futurism is a big seller, and answer me this:

If the end came 3 minutes from now or 30 years down the road, if your ready for it what difference should it make?

The only reason I see for studying prophecy is not to know when my fate may come, but to not be fooled by the enemy if it happens in my lifetime.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:20 AM
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Where do you people come up with this stuff at? Everyone that has any fame at all has been accused of "being" the anti-Christ....and now the next pres will be.....get a grip! I'm all for conspiracies, but real..possible ones...not fairy tails.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:50 AM
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On a side note, assuming the next president isn't the anti-christ. How long until Bill Gates runs for president?



posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Isn't the current president the Anti-Christ?? Maybe the Anti-Christ is like one of those creatures that requires a host body and it moves from president to president??.....now there's a good topic for a new thread!!



posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Zabilgy
Isn't the current president the Anti-Christ?? Maybe the Anti-Christ is like one of those creatures that requires a host body and it moves from president to president??.....now there's a good topic for a new thread!!


I'll get working on it.

Honestly, Bush could be the guy who ends up fighting the AntiChrist.



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5No maybe not overtly rude, but saying that you know from those, "in the know”, implies that I do not know what I am talking about. Perhaps I misread what it is you were saying, and if so I then apologize.
Accepted.


I do not believe that any guy off the street that has been weaned on Futurism is a con, most are retelling what it is that they have been taught, but this does not make it right. The ones that are cons are those that should know better, “the ones in the know”, as you stated. They are the ones that are out there selling the books, movies, and videos that push Futurism. They are making money at the expense of peoples souls. The reason that Futurism is so popular is that it pushes the following things:
So what you are saying is that you know but those who speak of the 7 years, clergy and ATS posters in agreement with them are not in the know. Do I understand correctly? Are these ATSers and all pastors selling books etc.? If not, please specify. Also, what is it about your Daniel belief that makes it so? please expound on the 3 you gave, specifically how long each was and when they each started.


C) It allows for a rapture to rescue anyone professing to be a Christian from persecution and torment.
What is this rapture and where does it come from if you are saying there is one? I read just today on another thread there is no such thing. Two opposing views only one can be correct.


Now if you believe in God and his word, you should believe the following:...
I believe in God yes, and if I am to believe in those NT books from which you quote, why am I not to believe in revelation and its 7 years?


So follow my logic here, if the plan is so well known that there are tons of books, movies, and video’s about it, then how is it so deceptive as to deceive even the very elect?
Look around, people everywhere like conspiracies, deciphering the past, present and future and many have a morbid fascination with grotesque and Godly ways the world will end. You have done the same.


It cannot be Futurism,...
This does not mean that it is Daniel's prophecy either, or the event you relate same to.


Before I say anything On the next comment, I would like to say that I went to Catholic school when I was young, and I don’t have any kind of axe to grind with anyone I know that is catholic, so this is not about bashing Catholic Christians, this is simply about telling the truth and denying ignorance. Sorry but telling the truth is not always politically correct, and sometimes good people can get caught up in things that are not so good and not even realize it.
RCC's believe theirs is the only truth, as do you believe yours to be. Are you of any faith now, or a theist without an accepted religion?


This statement tells me one of two things, either you do not understand what I am talking about, or you did not read my posts well. Those men lived during the persecution by the Fourth beast of Daniel, which was Rome, lead by the Pope who is the Little Horn of Daniel and therefore what most today would call an Anti-Christ. Don’t believe me lets look a bit at Daniel:
For brevity, it was about your list. Yes, I understood you, and read them well, but you have not provided anything to prove Daniel’s prophecy save to tell me when you think it all occurred. By your inference you are also saying that JPII was wrong but you are correct, 1.2 billion people believe he is correct. You need more than just telling me I did not understand or to choose certain eras to make your case.


The vision of the statue:The interpretation of the vision:
. Thou art this head of gold. (Babylon)….kingdom. of brass, (Medio-Petrsia)…Bronze…(Greece) strong as iron…(Rome)part of potters' clay, and part of iron,…(today)
These are fine assumptions, let us see how they correspond: Gold- in use from as early as 4,000BCE, Egypt, India also; Bronze- found to have been in use in Thailand more than 6k years ago; in ME by 4000BCE-16th C; Iron age-13-6th century BCE development; Iron and clay- from 6th century BCE where concrete was heavily used by the Romans in 1st century ACE. Including Nero.

Now Daniel lived during the time of Nebuchadnezzar, 7th century BCE. he would have known about all of those materials from the OT itself relative to the weapons of war, and from history known to him about buildings and materials. This then is no evidence of a future unknown, but in fact there is for a past known. Your dating is very liberal.


Vision of the 4 Beasts… are four kings…The interpretation of the vision: Babylon; Medo-Persian; Greece; Rome

We have the Jews downtrodden by: Egyptian Babylonia to 13th century BCE ; Assyrian 12th C BCE; Assyrian & Babylonian 13-12th C BCE; Assyrian 10th C BCE- Babylonian 7th C BCE Plus they had encounters with Hittites 16th c -12th C BCE, Philistines13th to 12th C BCE, Phoenician 1Mill-7th C BCE. He can therefore be referring to any number of those, since, Egyptian was Gold; Bronze- Hittites; iron- Philistines & Phoenicians . Daniel also saw the 4th beast usurp the other 3. So again, this does not necessarily reflect the future but the past. The only reason the prophecy is left open is because the “for ever and ever:” has not come true, is that not so? Yet, that 4th power can be any number of powers from the 7th century onward, where there have been many powers. Now I would really like to see your timeline according to Daniel as to how the last part of the prophecy is still to be fulfilled because;

There are still a few things to happen, like the Mark, the second coming, the judgment, increased world disasters such as the tsunami, things like that.
This mark is also mentioned by Daniel, so it is either you go by him; by Revelation, or by the book linked to both.


There is NO set time line for these things to occur.
Why not? Is it because that the prophecy is interpreted to one’s satisfaction, to suit the times no matter the pauses in between? This leaves it open-ended and subject to revision on a daily basis, where when we wait long enough we can attach some historic moment to past prophecy.


This is why God said it would be like a thief in the night,
Is he? Does it not also claim that after the stars fall, and that is a big event, he will appear? Is it then your contention that it will all happen so quickly that we won’t have time to say; oh! Look skyward!?



Some prophecies, such as the mark, I see in the loss of freedom occurring in this country. To be honest HR418 fits almost every criteria to be the Mark if it passes the senate.
That is your country, not mine, and it does not address the world.


Just out of curiosity, look at what it is your asking me here, then look up above at the reasons I say that Futurism is a big seller, and answer me this:

If the end came 3 minutes from now or 30 years down the road, if your ready for it what difference should it make?
I also see any apocalyptic prophecy to be a big seller, keep the masses scared. And I will be pleased to answer after you answer my questions.




[edit on 4/6/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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Considered the rapture was invented and isn't biblical, I'd say you could leave that part out at least.



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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JTL,

The thing you have to remember is though, though those dem president's (Clinton, mind you), took our military fund and our military and tossed it to the side.

Take for a second, if you will, the time and imagine if 9/11 had happened during his term. Our military was in shambles.

As a military man, that is what I concern myself with. The defense and protection of both the Dem. and the Con.'s right to have an opinion whatsoever.

-wD



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by djpaec
... Whatever schmuck bangs his head so hard we all think he will die, then he lives through it, that's who.


I'm curious where did all the talk about the anti-christ getting hit in the head originate from? Is there some prophecy or something? I read somewhere about a black eye too but that could happen to anyone.


Trivia fact: I believe both Kerry and Bush had bicycle accidents last year. I don't remember seeing any of them get black eyes though from their accidents.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by orionthehunter]



posted on Apr, 10 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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So what you are saying is that you know but those who speak of the 7 years, clergy and ATS posters in agreement with them are not in the know. Do I understand correctly? Are these ATSers and all pastors selling books etc.? If not, please specify. Also, what is it about your Daniel belief that makes it so? please expound on the 3 you gave, specifically how long each was and when they each started.


As I have already stated Futurism, which is the style of prophetic interpretation that allows for a 7 year tribulation period, is now quite in fashion. This does not make it correct.
No these people are not all selling books, and as I said above they are only repeating what they are hearing from those that are.

I am not sure what three you are referring too here. If you mean the kingdoms, they went on as long as each historically lasted. If you mean the Prophecies, then the first would have started in Daniels day and lasted until the second coming of Christ as it lists the world dominating power of each age until the end. The Second prophecy would have started with Daniel and continued through the power of Rome which ended in 1789. The last is part of the second and would refer to the 1260 year period specifically from the horn being put into power under Justinian’s codification of Roman law, entitled Corpus Juris Civilis, around 538. This document recognizes the Pope seated in Rome as the head of all churches having the authority to punish those he considers heretics, “in accordance with our resentment”. This system continued until February 15, 1978 when Napoleons General Berthier issued Bill No. 8 & 9.


originally from The Times of London, Monday, March 12, 1798, pg. 3
"The Roman people are now again entered into the rights of sovereignty, declaring their independence, possessing the government of ancient Rome, constituting a Roman Republic.
"The General-in-chief of the French army in Italy declares, in the name of the French Republic, that he acknowledges the Roman Republic independent, and that the same is under the special protection of the French army.
"The General-in-chief of the army acknowledges, in the name of the French Republic, the provisional government which has been proposed by the sovereign people.
"In consequence, every other temporal authority emanating from the old government of the Pope, is suppressed, and it shall no more exercise any function....
"The Roman Republic, acknowledged by the French Republic, comprehends all the country that remained under the temporal authority of the Pope, after the treaty of Campo-Formio.
"ALEXANDRE BERTHIER."





What is this rapture and where does it come from if you are saying there is one? I read just today on another thread there is no such thing. Two opposing views only one can be correct.


The idea of the rapture, come from Jesuit Futurism, hence it is something I personally do not believe in. As I stated above, however; it is part of what makes Futurism sell so well to the public. The idea that all the Christians will be magically whisked away right before anything bad happens. It is the very idea of the rapture that makes Futurism so dangerous.
I already know you are going to say why, so here goes:

There was a time when all I Knew was Futurism, just like most people now. I realized that Luther and several others believed that the Station of the Pope was the station of the Little Horn, but back then I did not do much research into prophecy. Even then, I knew there were three groups to the rapture believers, the Pre-Tribbers, the Mid-Tribbers, and the Post-Tribbers. Those that believe it comes first, those that believe that it comes in the middle and those that believe it comes at the end of this supposed 7-year period that we are discussing here. I never really saw any danger to any of the three schools, but always believed that we would be here through it all right to the very end, and the other two groups were indulging in wishful thinking. One day I had it pointed out to me that there is a real danger in believing in not only futurism, but mainly in the rapture for the following reason:

It allows for a time line of events that give people the false sense that they can pinpoint date the event based on signs in the world. This is simply mans ego, thinking they can outsmart God, that they can be bad or worldly right up to the last minute and when they see the signs they expect, they can get right with God in a big rush, and whoosh be raptured with the rest of the Christians.

Problem with this is that there are many Christians that are going to not only be very shocked when this does not happen, but are going to be very shocked once they realize they have accepted the mark. Simply because the time line did not play out the way they thought, and a seemingly innocent thing ended up being the mark, and no Super Human Demon Possessed Anti-Christ put it in play. Rather it is slipped in as a law under an existing government as something that the normal citizen agrees with, like Homeland Security.

Anyway you will find the debate between the three groups of Rapture believers to be intense. In the opinion of someone like myself, there is one Second Coming of Christ and only one, and that is at the Final Trumpet Blast in Revelations.


I believe in God yes, and if I am to believe in those NT books from which you quote, why am I not to believe in revelation and its 7 years?


Well first, I was quoting Daniel, which is Old Testament, and is quoted in the New Testament by Christ himself. Again, it never mentions 7 years in Revelations the closest you are going to find is two references to a 42 months period (which 42X30=1260), and the two times it mentions 1260 days specifically.



Look around, people everywhere like conspiracies, deciphering the past, present and future and many have a morbid fascination with grotesque and Godly ways the world will end. You have done the same.


No not I, check the list of men above again, it was them. I simply began to study what it was they believed.


This does not mean that it is Daniel's prophecy either, or the event you relate same to.


Not sure what you mean by this, but it gives me the feeling that you do not understand where the prophecy’s you believe in come from. The entire idea of a 7 year tribulation period as held by Jesuit Futurism, comes from the 70 weeks of Daniel, which they claim the last week of is to come at a future date in time, but which Historicists believe ended 3 years after the death of Christ.



RCC's believe theirs is the only truth, as do you believe yours to be. Are you of any faith now, or a theist without an accepted religion?


I went to Lutheran Grade School, and Catholic High School, but I am a confirmed Lutheran.



By your inference you are also saying that JPII was wrong but you are correct, 1.2 billion people believe he is correct


John Paul was a Papist, and therefore not going to say yes to what I am telling you. That is the whole point. Rome was taking heat from guys like Luther and they came up with Futurism and Praeterist to throw off the heat they were drawing. Again look at my quote above about the deceiving the Very Elect if possible, this implies a minority.



These are fine assumptions, let us see how they correspond: Gold- in use from as early as 4,000BCE, Egypt, India also; Bronze- found to have been in use in Thailand more than 6k years ago; in ME by 4000BCE-16th C; Iron age-13-6th century BCE development; Iron and clay- from 6th century BCE where concrete was heavily used by the Romans in 1st century ACE. Including Nero.

Now Daniel lived during the time of Nebuchadnezzar, 7th century BCE. he would have known about all of those materials from the OT itself relative to the weapons of war, and from history known to him about buildings and materials. This then is no evidence of a future unknown, but in fact there is for a past known. Your dating is very liberal.


Well in Daniel itself it tells you the first two are Babylon, and Media- Persia, and the next country to rise after them to be the world dominating power of the day is Grecia (Greece).



Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


So the next Beast is the next world ruling power, Rome, it is the only beast that is not identified by name by the end of the book, and it fits the description of the forth layer of the statue and the fourth beast.



We have the Jews downtrodden by: Egyptian Babylonia to 13th century BCE ; Assyrian 12th C BCE; Assyrian & Babylonian 13-12th C BCE; Assyrian 10th C BCE- Babylonian 7th C BCE Plus they had encounters with Hittites 16th c -12th C BCE, Philistines13th to 12th C BCE, Phoenician 1Mill-7th C BCE. He can therefore be referring to any number of those, since, Egyptian was Gold; Bronze- Hittites; iron- Philistines & Phoenicians . Daniel also saw the 4th beast usurp the other 3. So again, this does not necessarily reflect the future but the past. The only reason the prophecy is left open is because the “for ever and ever:” has not come true, is that not so? Yet, that 4th power can be any number of powers from the 7th century onward, where there have been many powers. Now I would really like to see your timeline according to Daniel as to how the last part of the prophecy is still to be fulfilled because;


It cannot be the Egyptians, or the Hittites, because the Angel TELLS Daniel the interpretation of the dream, and it starts in order from Babylon forward. The next world controlling country is Rome, then there are several world powers but never one country to rule the known world again (the feet of clay mixed with iron), which is the way it is now. Then if you go from there to Revelations, and you carry the description of the Beasts forward to there, you will see that right about the time Rome is wounded, another beast arises, the one with 2 Horns and the appearance of a Lamb, this is the US.



This mark is also mentioned by Daniel, so it is either you go by him; by Revelation, or by the book linked to both.


All three schools of interpretation hold that these books are to be used together as well as all prophecy contained in the Bible.



Why not? Is it because that the prophecy is interpreted to one’s satisfaction, to suit the times no matter the pauses in between? This leaves it open-ended and subject to revision on a daily basis, where when we wait long enough we can attach some historic moment to past prophecy.


I am truly sorry that it does not tell you the exact date and time that the second coming will be, but doesn’t it say something about that in the Bible to begin with, something about a thief in the night? Is there not a parable about the wedding feast and how those that where not prepared missed it. It does say that believers can discern the season, but not the exact date.



Is he? Does it not also claim that after the stars fall, and that is a big event, he will appear? Is it then your contention that it will all happen so quickly that we won’t have time to say; oh! Look skyward!?


Sure, but it will be a bit late.



That is your country, not mine, and it does not address the world.


Actually this is part of what really bothers me about that bill, it does span boarders. For now only into Canada and Mexico, but I believe that other nations are also passing or already have their own national ID cards. I think that it looks apparent that the next step is to link all those databases together. In itself, this sounds like a good thing; it would eliminate many different forms of radical crime and so on. The next step sounds even better, lets attach this to all your credit and banking, and viola, even more crime would be eliminated. Next, we RFID the cards so they can be read by readers everywhere and then we can track any individuals movements, no more not knowing where your kids are. Then Finally, we make them implantable and you have your final product that would eliminate almost all ability to commit any crime.

Great plan, to bad its against my religion.



I also see any apocalyptic prophecy to be a big seller, keep the masses scared. And I will be pleased to answer after you answer my questions.


If you’re faith is in the right place why be scared to begin with.



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