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from Byrd on thread 119976
There is nothing in antiquity about Atlantis except that one mention of Plato. There is no mention of it anywhere in ancient Egypt (the "sea kings" are Phoenecians; not Atlanteans.) There's no tales of its destruction in other civilizations.
There's no pottery... no nothing.
Originally posted by celticniall
I think that there is a confusion between a place called "Atlantis" and an ancient long lost civilisation. There was never an actual city or continent called Atlantis. But there existed an ancient civilisation long before the great flood.
In South and Central America, we see the remenants of a lost civilisation in the stories of Quetzalcoatl, a bearded wite man who landed on the Eastern shore, brought knowledge to the indigenous peoples, and built cities. The Olmecs and Toltecs, Mayans and Aztecs all inherited ancient knowledge from this traveller, as witnessed in some of their building feats, which could not be done with todays knowledge.
Where did the Egyptian heiroglyphs all of a sudden come from?
How did they align the pyramids exactly to line up with Orion's belt at one point in history...10,500BC?
So there we are folks, is Atlantis just a fictional example Platio used? Or is it something more?
Originally posted by Indellkoffer
There never was a "great flood."
Originally posted by Indellkoffer
Originally posted by celticniall
I think that there is a confusion between a place called "Atlantis" and an ancient long lost civilisation. There was never an actual city or continent called Atlantis. But there existed an ancient civilisation long before the great flood.
There never was a "great flood."
Originally posted by CatHerder
Boom .... swoosh! [more to follow...]
Actually, sure, there was indeed a "great flood". It's just that "great" >/~3500 years ago meant "in the Mediterranean" where the vast majority of "advanced" civilizations existed, at this time predominantly Minoans, (this of course is discounting China and Central America for obvious reasons). The largest portion of these "civilization" populations were near the coastline of the Mediterranean. "The world" then, was exactly that... the area surrounding the Mediterranean -- or at least that was the whole world to everyone living there at the time... The center of Minoan culture, trade, and might was on the Isle of Crete.
Surely most people have heard of Crete? And most likely you've seen the enormous crater (more) where over 2/3rds of the island Thera, right beside Crete, used to be? Perhaps you've even read a few books or watched a few TV shows regarding Crete? Do you also know that the crater formed by the volcanic explosion(s) of Thera is dozens of times larger than the crater on Mount St Helens? Do you recall the force of that explosion (Mount St Helens) and how many thousand square miles of forrest were literally flattened? Did you also know, that according to core samples from around the Med all the way up to Iceland there is a very large ash deposit dating to around 1500 BCE? (Radio-carbon dating has it at 1600-1650, but archaeologists date it at around 1500, the exact date is still debated) Did you also know that the force of the Thera explosion has been estimated at approximately 50 Mount St Helens? Imagine the level of destruction from a volcano 50 times stronger than Mount St Helens after viewing hte above Helens link...
Using the knowledge of this enormous volcanic explosion, and the ability to compare it to a modern volcanic explosion, we can call this information "boom" for future reference. Now, lets compare another recent event to get our other term we'll call "swoosh".
Everyone recalls the recent tsunami (in the western hemisphere it would be called "tidal wave") and the level of devestation it brought. But do most of you understand the mechanics behind a tsunami compared to "a really big wave"?
A really big wave is just that, and only that, a wave of energy across the ocean/sea surface. Water moves up, water moves down, but very minimal (as in next to none) left to right displacement occurs. The wave is energy, not water, moving 'across' the surface. However, a tsunami or tidal wave is an entirely different matter. Literally billions of cubic liters of water are displaced by land either moving up or down far beneath the water surface, the action of this displacement is carried out across the area until it meets a solid object (land). The BBC gives a fairly decent explaination of this including a pretty good step-by-step animation. And even better explaination of a tsunami can be found here.
While the recent Tsunami was caused by an underwater earthquake, the same thing occurs with a large volcanic eruption under water, or near a coastline - a tsunami (tidal wave) occurs due to the displacement of water at the source (by land mass and energy). Swoosh!
Everyone can see the the Mediterranean is basically an oval (oblong) body of water, and if you look on a map you can also see that Crete is basically in the "middle" of civilization at the time (BCE 1500, give or take). Imagine a tidal wave originating from this source. A "giant flood" in almost every other part of "the world" would occur. ("The World", remember, is the civilizations around the Mediterranean; the source location of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, all three religions that refer to "a great flood" while Buddah and other eastern religions do not refer to a single great flood). If a tidal wave occured in the Mediterranean around 3500 years ago, and it was "small" (low height) like the one that occured in the Indian Ocean recently, it's not hard to imagine it reaching miles inland along most of north Africa, Turkey, Isreal (and area) etc. There is your great flood. That's what is recorded by multiple religions, multple works of art, and other physical records. Remember, a tidal wave or tsunami isn't "a really big wave", it's equivelent to a giant river of water, miles wide, washing across the land.
Boom! Swoosh! Volcano in the middle of the Mediterranean = tidal wave that floods most of civilization. It's not mythology, it's just plain old boring science.
You'll notice I didn't refer to Crete as "Atlantis" -- but, for my money, it is still the best candidate ever found.
Originally posted by longbow
While you made some good points in your theory, I disagree. Indeed some people say that Thera explosion created 250meters high tsunami waves(!!!), which destroyed Crete, but I highly doubt they had some effect on Egypt and other countries.
The reasons
1. Ancient mediterranean civilizations were not on coasts (except Creta and maybe some Acheans) Egypt centre was near Cairo, Babylon and Asyria was not acessible from mediterranean sea at all, Hittites lived in Anatolia (quite high above sea too).
2. Thera explosion took place 1500BC. Please not the while for Greeks it was time of legends, the Egyptians and Babylonians lived in deep historical time and if such disaster that influenced their lives (and created legends) happened they would surely mention it somewhere in their writings!!! But there are no talks about some natural disaster at that time. The Babylonia flood stories are much older.
So I don't think Thera explosion influenced other Meditarean civs except Creta.
Originally posted by merka
They've found stones from Thera in Egypt...
And civilisation depended on water, most where ocean faring and had big cities along the coasts (even if it wasnt capitals).
Originally posted by longbow
While you made some good points in your theory, I disagree. Indeed some people say that Thera explosion created 250meters high tsunami waves(!!!), which destroyed Crete, but I highly doubt they had some effect on Egypt and other countries.
The reasons
1. Ancient Mediterranean civilizations were not on coasts (except Creta and maybe some Acheans) Egypt centre was near Cairo, Babylon and Asyria was not acessible from mediterranean sea at all, Hittites lived in Anatolia (quite high above sea too).
2. Thera explosion took place 1500BC. Please not the while for Greeks it was time of legends, the Egyptians and Babylonians lived in deep historical time and if such disaster that influenced their lives (and created legends) happened they would surely mention it somewhere in their writings!!! But there are no talks about some natural disaster at that time. The Babylonia flood stories are much older.
So I don't think Thera explosion influenced other Meditarean civs except Creta.
[edit on 2-4-2005 by longbow]
Originally posted by CatHerder
"Around 1640 BCE, towards the end of the "Middle Kingdom", central authority in lower Egypt seemed suddenly to perish and the rulers of the land fled to the southern city of Thebes leaving the capital in Memphis, while some nomadic tribes supposedly coming from Asia were plundering the towns around the Nile delta. For more than a century, it is believed, these "foreign invaders" dominated Egypt and established a new state in the northern part of the land, called the "Hyksos Kingdom". Just who were those "Hyksos" people? We do not have much exact evidence but mainstream Egyptology suggests that they were the coalition of some nomadic tribes, wandering around the eastern borders of Egypt and at one time they attacked and defeated the ruling dynasties, then invaded the northern part of the land. The so-called "Hyksos Rulers" (foreign kings) could only be overthrown around 1570 BCE by pharaoh Ahmose (also spelled Amosis) I and the order was finally restored in Egypt, marking the establishment of the New Kingdom."
It's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together. The loss of fish stocks and the devastation of their primary agriculture region by a tidal wave would most certainly leave the Egyptian rulers in a state of vulnerability. This certainly would account for the Hyksos Rulers... It wasn't until ~1570 BCE, 70 years later, that the Egyptians under pharaoh Amosis drove the Hyksos out. And, as I've said from the beginning, 1650 is "probably" a more accurate date of the eruption of Thera.
Or maybe you don't know much about Egypt between 1700-1400 BCE other than what you've been shown in movies or "made for TV" specials (most of this is usually related to more "recent" times under Cleopatra)?
Again you're completely mistaken on your time period and your ruling civilizations and even your geography. In 1650 the ruling "super power" of the Mediterranean were the Minoans, not Greeks (the Mycenaeans took power over the Minoans AFTER the fall of Crete to a natural disaster), certainly not the Romans, definitely not Babylonians (a culture which existed predominantly from ~6000BCE until 500BCE, and was in Persia (They lived in the area of present day Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers where the two rivers join the Persian Gulf.), on the other side of the mountains separating the Med from Persia. Surely you've seen a map of that 1/4 of the world? Why would a civilization located 1000 miles away from the Mediterranean have a "history" (i.e. stories, fables, etc) of "the Great Flood" that would not have reached them simply due to the giant hills between them?
... saying is, this volcanic event ties in neatly with 3 religious writings...
Originally posted by longbow
The point is - Egyptians carefully recorded natural disasters or other important things. And they simply recorded nothing like this in such large scale.
Egyptians also have a nack for removing stuff they dont like.