god dosnt exsit

Croat56 science cant explain where matter comes from yet remember there was a time when science couldnt explain why the moon disapeared from our view from time to time.

Originally posted by xpert11
Croat56 science cant explain where matter comes from yet remember there was a time when science couldnt explain why the moon disapeared from our view from time to time.

You are placing way to much trust in science. I dont mean it is wrong to believe what science tells you, but Science will NOT come up with all the answers that you believe it will. There will always be unknown factors. However, the complex makeup of life suggests that there is a God.

Science will never have the answer to everything, and will never be able to conclude either way that there is or isn't a god. Philosophers have pondered this very question for centuries and are still pretty much clueless.

There's a story I heard age's ago that goes something like this...
Three Rabbi's are being held captive in a nazi concentration camp during world war 2. They have watched as their congregations have been taken away to their death, and realise that the following morning they too will be taken to the gas chambers. So, in true Rabbinical style, they spend their last night on earth debating and disputing. The subject under debate is, can there be a god if such suffering exists? They disscuss this all night long, and as the morning light begins to appear, they reach a conclusion. Their conclusion is that no, there can't be a god if such suffering exists. Then as the sun begins to rise above the horizon, they kneel down and say their morning prayers to God.

I don't know if there is a supreme being, creator, omnipotent deity, heavenly father, divine architect of the universe, maker, etc.
I have not seen anything personally that is even strongly suggestive of the big guy's existence. I know that the vast majority of you haven't either, and those who say you have, I am sorry to say that the evidence you cite is, imho, not evidence at all. Just because something is appealing or complex, or useful to us is in no way, shape or form supporting evidence of a God. If you look at a snowflake magnified it looks awesome.... and if you know anything about fractals, chaos theory, the fibonacci series of numbers, or the golden ratio, then you know that the exquisite geometrical patterns you see are perfectly accounted for by mathematical processes that even we lowly humans can fathom. They exist with no god required.

Having said that, and likely alienated any theists here, now I must do so to the atheists, pragmatists, and cynics who believe, as Carl Sagan does, that there are no 'magical' reasons behind anything. All of the miraculous events can now, or one day will be, explained by science.
I would love to agree with that, cuz it is much more comforting a world view to me than the idea that there are paranormal or supernatural things behind some phenomena.
I'd love to, but can't..... I have seen one too many miracles, and I don't mean the miracle of a sunrise. I mean the kind of stuff you see in fantasy stories, like angels, astral travel, visions of the future, etc.
I tried. I really did. I ignored them, though never forgot them, all my life.
up until I was 39 I was able to rationalize them all away. Even though I had no explanation, I was content that science was one day going to find the cause.
No more. The camels back broke. After some point, I just had to shrug my shoulders and accept that I was convinced there were extraordinary things going on.
Now I'll go and feed my cat, alone, having pissed off both camps, and thus guaranteeing a lonely future.
Inshallah.

I am not talking about that kind of complexity. I am talking about all of life's complexity. And it is most definitely an arguement, as philosophers use it today when arguing for a God. However, I could give you more miraculous stories, but what would that accomplish?

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
I am not talking about that kind of complexity. I am talking about all of life's complexity. And it is most definitely an arguement, as philosophers use it today when arguing for a God. However, I could give you more miraculous stories, but what would that accomplish?

Yeah no matter how many miraculouse things happen they wont admit that theres something there. How do they explain miracle healings

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
I am not talking about that kind of complexity. I am talking about all of life's complexity. And it is most definitely an arguement, as philosophers use it today when arguing for a God. However, I could give you more miraculous stories, but what would that accomplish?

You would be preaching to the converted. My whole life is one long string of logic defying miracles. So it wouldn't accomplish much, I'm afraid.

I used to work with a fellow who's wife died of lung cancer, though she was a nurse who never smoked. After she passed on, he raised their two daughters as a single dad. It was about a year from her diagnosis until she was gone. Around a month before she passed on she told him that she was going to send him some kind of a sign. He is a very honest, family-oriented, devout Catholic, and I honestly cannot see him lying about something this serious. Then, from her hospital bed a week before she passed on, she told him she knew what the sign would be....lightning.
I have only been to one funeral in my life, and it was scheduled for 1 P.M., one Saturday, at a local Catholic Church. As we arrived it was pouring rain out, really hard, the sky was completely filled by very thick, very low overcast clouds, and it made midday as dark as if it was dusk. We sat down, got settled in, and then boom, thunder, and the lights in the church went out for a couple of minutes. My friend told me that when the thunder struck, he immediately looked at his watch and, by coincidence, it was 1 o'clock on the dot. After the funeral was over we came out to find there wasn't a cloud in the sky; I looked in every direction. Everything was soaked and dripping, yet the sun was shining, making the roads reflect a blinding glare.

Really why should anyone care what anyone believes? I mean are they pissed off just because of the way I think? You know I really try not to enforce my belief on anyone it's just my ruleset that works for me that keeps me going ya know. Just as everyone else has theirs man.


Really who cares what wierdo religions people are? They're all weird! We can't say we know about the great beyond when we have BARELY explored beyond this tiny rock.


live and let live man

I do see how they can manipulate certain religions but thats just because there are some evil people in this world, well maybe not evil truly just thats what works for them manipulation, so they do it.

no right no wrong just actions which you must respond to

Originally posted by Killak420
So I guess since you dont beleive in GOD I can call you a monkey

If there is no GOD then how come you exist?

Its called evolution... look into it, coz it makes more sense than creationism...

But xpert... let people believe if they want... i dont, but as long as bible bashers bash their bibles away from me i'm not fussed.

Really who cares what wierdo religions people are? They're all weird! We can't say we know about the great beyond when we have BARELY explored beyond this tiny rock.
live and let live man
Lysergic

Originally posted by specialasianX

Originally posted by Killak420
So I guess since you dont beleive in GOD I can call you a monkey

If there is no GOD then how come you exist?

Its called evolution... look into it, coz it makes more sense than creationism...

But xpert... let people believe if they want... i dont, but as long as bible bashers bash their bibles away from me i'm not fussed.

For two defenders of the skeptical camp, you could be more logical, and less nasty. First, Lysergic, you call all religions wierd, thereby insulting the majority of the human race....lol.....and follow it up with live and let live.
Well, I got a chuckle out of it. Atheists are not immune from wierdness.

And specialasianx, you are content to defend the primary school rational that 'well, they did it to me, so i did it back.'
I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right... three lefts do though.
I would love to be an atheist, you can 'let' me all you want, lol, but I just can't, m'kay.
I guess I'll 'let' you two believe you're both right.

you take what i say out of context not that it matters to me



I say weird as in every religion belives they are right therefore every religion cept 1 is wrong in that thinking, I don't know how I came off nasty but if thats the way you take it, I was just honest.


who said I am atheist?

oh you drew that conclusion because I said oragnized religon can be manipulated? bah it's the truth man.


but it's ok we've all got different mental pictures of eachother probably which none are true, tis the net.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by Lysergic
you take what i say out of context not that it matters to me



I say weird as in every religion belives they are right therefore every religion cept 1 is wrong in that thinking, I don't know how I came off nasty but if thats the way you take it, I was just honest.


who said I am atheist?
[edit on 28-4-2005 by Lysergic]

I likely implied you are an atheist. Sorry. I do not find anything wrong with atheism itself, and personally believe atheism is no less spiritual or holy than any religion. But I do stand by the nastiness critique. If you called my heartfelt beliefs weird, I would tend to consider that nasty. Its a long ways from saying something like, "I disagree, but feel that your church is a good thing, and your faith is good, and valid and just as real and true as my own beliefs." Of course if you meant to imply that all people regardless of their beliefs, atheist through zionist, are weird, that is less insulting. But it still doesn't come off sounding positive to me, or even neutral. Its still a diss.

'who said I am atheist?

oh you drew that conclusion because I said oragnized religon can be manipulated? bah it's the truth man.' Lysergic

btw, I too, occasionally say nasty things. Okay, daily, but not all day long.

Indeed, I do agree, Osama Bin Laden, Jim Jones, Jerry Falwell, Swaggart, Bakker, Angely, ..... to me, are all examples of religion twisted by leaders for personal gain.
It is an old game..........I know it well.

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

The Big Bang Theory isn't flawed. It suggests that there was something before the universe, and that gravity became so dense, that it crunched the whole universe together. Then gravity became so dense to the point where there was a big "explosion" that blasted matter throughout the universe.

Xpert, I don't know where to start. I have seen the weakest arguments coming from you. :shk:

-Chris

Originally posted by Quake

Suppose I am a layman, or that I am new to English or if you please just plain dumb...

Explain/Define GOD
(Please dont give me a copy paste from wikipedia)

Continuing from where I left:

I find it hard to believe an entity which even the strongest believers cannot describe.

I do believe miracles happen, but thats because they are just phenomenan we cannot explain...YeT...... Remember the the times when even cures for polio and small pox were considered miracles..

Just for speculation, Maybe a controlling force exists:
Whats so special about it/him/her that I should WORSHIP him?

Originally posted by Lysergic
Really why should anyone care what anyone believes? I mean are they pissed off just because of the way I think? You know I really try not to enforce my belief on anyone it's just my ruleset that works for me that keeps me going ya know. Just as everyone else has theirs man.


Really who cares what wierdo religions people are? They're all weird! We can't say we know about the great beyond when we have BARELY explored beyond this tiny rock.


live and let live man

I do see how they can manipulate certain religions but thats just because there are some evil people in this world, well maybe not evil truly just thats what works for them manipulation, so they do it.

no right no wrong just actions which you must respond to

I care what you believe because I care about you. I want you to join the rest of us in heaven. It isn't about what I want others to think so I can justify my beliefs, it is I want you to see so you can be eternally happy as well. In a way, it is me going out of my way to help you. Or atleast that is the way it is in my religion.

BlackGuard- The second part of that post wasn't intended for you, I should have clarified. It was for Xpert.

Originally posted by Quake

Originally posted by Quake

Suppose I am a layman, or that I am new to English or if you please just plain dumb...

Explain/Define GOD
(Please dont give me a copy paste from wikipedia)

Continuing from where I left:

I find it hard to believe an entity which even the strongest believers cannot describe.

I do believe miracles happen, but thats because they are just phenomenan we cannot explain...YeT...... Remember the the times when even cures for polio and small pox were considered miracles..

Just for speculation, Maybe a controlling force exists:
Whats so special about it/him/her that I should WORSHIP him?

Perhaps because it gave you life. It gave you the ability to choose things, to love things, to be free. Thus, you owe it worship. Perhaps it is because it has done nothing but love you ever since existance, even after you have turned your back on it. Perhaps it is because it is pure good.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Perhaps because it gave you life. It gave you the ability to choose things, to love things, to be free. Thus, you owe it worship. Perhaps it is because it has done nothing but love you ever since existance, even after you have turned your back on it. Perhaps it is because it is pure good.

Perhaps because it gave you life: Scientists have cloned sheeps and horses. They are working on creating single cell organisms and in all probability will be sucessful.. Should I begin worshiping them?

It gave you the ability to choose things, to love things, to be free
I worked hard to learn to differentiate things, to love things and my forefathers worked to be free. BTW, there are still millions of people in this world who are not free. So I presume they should not believe in GOD. Neither do people who enslave/attack others. But, in my view many of these atrocities have been carried out in the name of GOD. Remember the KKK and the cross, the Nazis, the crusades.. The list goes on and on and on

Thus, you owe it worship: I may owe him AWE...But I dont owe him WORSHIP

Perhaps it is because it has done nothing but love you ever since existance, even after you have turned your back on it. Perhaps it is because it is pure good: If GOD is so loving and powerful why is there is so much misery on earth. Human fault I guess: But, then If we can attribute all the faults to ourselves we certainly deserve the credit for the good in the world. Lets not start attributing everything good in the world to god and everything bad to humans!!!!!



[edit on 28-4-2005 by Quake]

Perhaps because it gave you life: Scientists have cloned sheeps and horses. They are working on creating single cell organisms and in all probability will be sucessful.. Should I begin worshiping them?

Did the scientists give you life? And any life the Scientists create will be a result of God creating it, as that scientist would never have been able to create whatever they create without God first creating them. So, no, they shouldn't worship the scientist, as God gave the power to the scientist to create them, and they should worship God because of this.

It gave you the ability to choose things, to love things, to be free
I worked hard to learn to differentiate things, to love things and my forefathers worked to be free. BTW, there are still millions of people in this world who are not free. So I presume they should not believe in GOD. Neither do people who enslave/attack others. But, in my view many of these atrocities have been carried out in the name of GOD. Remember the KKK and the cross, the Nazis, the crusades.. The list goes on and on and on

The atrocities of man prove nothing about God. We have the ability to choose to be good or bad, and some choose to be good and then place the label of "In God's name" on it. They don't have an inside track to what God wants in reality, and we both know this.

You are always free. Just because someone may not have the same freedoms that another has, doesn't make them any less free. A slave can choose to work for their master, or they can choose to run. That is still being free. In the end, there is nothing controling you but yourself. I didn't mean free as their government is a democracy.

Thus, you owe it worship: I may owe it AWE...But I dont owe him WORSHIP

I think AWE is better than nothing.

Perhaps it is because it has done nothing but love you ever since existance, even after you have turned your back on it. Perhaps it is because it is pure good: If GOD is so loving and powerful why is there is so much misery on earth. Human fault I guess: But, then If we can attribute all the faults to ourselves we certainly deserve the credit for the good in the world. Lets not start attributing everything good in the world to god and everything bad to humans!!!!!

I am not attributing all the Good to God, I am saying God is pure Good. That doesn't mean we aren't capable of being good ourselves, it just means that all his actions are good. The misery comes from the idea of freewill. If there is freewill, is there not the ability to choose to do the right thing or wrong thing? If there is freewill, and God wants it this way, why would he interfere? That would be controlling, and not so free.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by Ryanp5555]